Are Finnish Goshawks Really Finnish?

[HorseBox]

My brother has got a book written on gos its a scientific study recons after the use of DDT ect in Scandinavia last century the gos was all most extinct there so a massive effort was made in Germany to catch wild gos there and release back in the wild in Scandinavia what do all the mine are pure finn people think about that then could it be that pure finn are in fact pure German or mostly German can they live with such a revelation ops have i inadvertently let the cat out of the bag

[SparsTheOne]

OH no here we go again lol.




jase.

[Accipter-Gentilis]

My brother has got a book written on gos its a scientific study recons after the use of DDT ect in Scandinavia last century the gos was all most extinct there so a massive effort was made in Germany to catch wild gos there and release back in the wild in Scandinavia what do all the mine are pure finn people think about that then could it be that pure finn are in fact pure German or mostly German can they live with such a revelation ops have i inadvertently let the cat out of the bag

at the end of the day if you have a gos that you are happy with then who cares really not a real issue is it?

plenty of good gosses being bred,fin/ger,fin and euro gosses amongst others.

[HorseBox]

at the end of the day if you have a gos that you are happy with then who cares really not a real issue is it?

plenty of good gosses being bred,fin/ger,fin and euro gosses amongst others.I have no argument with that just wonderd what the thay have to be fin the fin gos is the only gos brigade thought about them realy being German

[PeregrinesUK]

Survival of the fittest - climate will dictate which goshawks survive so after only a few years maybe 10/15 id imagine size would be near original fin size . just my opinion. Mike

[OutFlying]

Do goshawks stop flying when they reach a countries border ?

[HorseBox]

Do goshawks stop flying when they reach a countries border ?I agree but the fin brigade seam to think so

[HorseBox]

Survival of the fittest - climate will dictate which goshawks survive so after only a few years maybe 10/15 id imagine size would be near original fin size . just my opinion. Mikewell dose that make them fin or German i dont think the size thery stands up as they were wild catch adults so abel hunters and if 10 or 15 years makes them fin all the goses in this country must be british not fin

[Phill Gibbons]

Survival of the fittest - climate will dictate which goshawks survive so after only a few years maybe 10/15 id imagine size would be near original fin size . just my opinion. Mikethere are a lot more facts to survivale than just climate, its reconed that 75% of all birds dont make through there first year.As falconers we keep these ones that would possiblies have die alive are these the ones that might just not have made it in life the 75% ers the poor performers....

[StormRider]

I agree but the fin brigade seam to think so

I agree. I think in this day and age when finnish bring a higher price on the market and is sold as such, then it does matter. I dont think anyone would be happy walking away from a breeder with a kestrel when they have ordered and paid for an eagle. Same difference/

STU

[Bones]

Does size really matter as long as you yourself are happy with the bird you have and it is doing as you would want it too

PAUL

[PeregrinesUK]

Were talking wild birds here not falconers birds captive bred.. so if 75% of wild young birds die in there first year - climate and other wild factors will dictate which survive.. and pass on there genes. meaning the species will evolve and to what suits the area -

Don't really matter where birds are from I think most falconers go to breeders with a good rep for breeding good hunting birds.

[HorseBox]

Were talking wild birds here not falconers birds captive bred.. so if 75% of wild young birds die in there first year - climate and other wild factors will dictate which survive.. and pass on there genes. meaning the species will evolve and to what suits the area -

Don't really matter where birds are from I think most falconers go to breeders with a good rep for breeding good hunting birds.That's a fair comment but that's not what the threads about its about Finnish birds really being GERMAN or mainly German origin

[PrinceOfTheWesternDesert]

I agree. I think in this day and age when finnish bring a higher price on the market and is sold as such, then it does matter. I dont think anyone would be happy walking away from a breeder with a kestrel when they have ordered and paid for an eagle. Same difference/

STU

this is the most relevant point,,
yet,, im sure it would be a breeder who says,,"what difference does it make?"

[PeregrinesUK]

That's a fair comment but that's not what the threads about its about Finnish birds really being GERMAN or mainly German origin

Like Jim said birds dont stop flying when they hit the border

[Pendleside]

My brother has got a book written on gos its a scientific study recons after the use of DDT ect in Scandinavia last century the gos was all most extinct there so a massive effort was made in Germany to catch wild gos there and release back in the wild in Scandinavia what do all the mine are pure finn people think about that then could it be that pure finn are in fact pure German or mostly German can they live with such a revelation ops have i inadvertently let the cat out of the bag

when did they start supplementing the finnish gosses with german imports ?
surely this book has percentages of original stock lost and numbers of imported german birds / year of initial release and subsequent releases ?

[ChrisGos]

I really don't think size matters. I flew a female Gos for ten years and she flew at 2Ib 5oz. Not big but she was awesome at hunting and a great all round bird. She was probably a mixture of German and Finnish stock although sold to me as pure Fin. Her replacement flies at 2Ib 10 3/4oz again sold to me as Pure Fin stock. Both birds were parent reared. The bird I have now is steadier and isn't that was they say Fin are steadier? I believe that the gos I have now is Fin but at the end of the day who cares. If an individual wants to pay a certain price then surely that is up to them. she is certainly lighter than the german birds I have seen. However its all about getting out and hunting!!!!!

[PrinceOfTheWesternDesert]

I really don't think size matters. I flew a female Gos for ten years and she flew at 2Ib 5oz. Not big but she was awesome at hunting and a great all round bird. She was probably a mixture of German and Finnish stock although sold to me as pure Fin. Her replacement flies at 2Ib 10 3/4oz again sold to me as Pure Fin stock. Both birds were parent reared. The bird I have now is steadier and isn't that was they say Fin are steadier? I believe that the gos I have now is Fin but at the end of the day who cares. If an individual wants to pay a certain price then surely that is up to them. she is certainly lighter than the german birds I have seen. However its all about getting out and hunting!!!!!

sounds like the truth to me

[CanadaManada]

Survival of the fittest - climate will dictate which goshawks survive so after only a few years maybe 10/15 id imagine size would be near original fin size . just my opinion. Mike

Yeah, this 10/15 year number comes from what? How many generations of goshawks you think would be produced in this period of time?

[Stu Bailey]

Yeah, this 10/15 year number comes from what? How many generations of goshawks you think would be produced in this period of time?

10/15 year guess is irrelevent.

The bones of the post made alot of sence to me for what its worth,

Atb,,not an argument (my reply) just an oppinion....

[HorseBox]

when did they start supplementing the finnish gosses with german imports ?
surely this book has percentages of original stock lost and numbers of imported german birds / year of initial release and subsequent releases ?HI pete the words all most extinct gives an idea of the state of the gos population

[Tom Kent Gos]

At the end of the day when people talk about finish birds all they mean is a bigger stock. I am not bothered about the size of my gosses but if I bought a bird that was meant to be a fin and it flew at 2lb 13/14 and I traced it back and it was actually a german bird, would I be bothered??? NO! and nor would you. Because the only reason you would be buying a finn is for the size.

Tom

[OutFlying]

At the end of the day when people talk about finish birds all they mean is a bigger stock. I am not bothered about the size of my gosses but if I bought a bird that was meant to be a fin and it flew at 2lb 13/14 and I traced it back and it was actually a german bird, would I be bothered??? NO! and nor would you. Because the only reason you would be buying a finn is for the size.

Tom

Correct Tom.

[OutFlying]

What about the Hungarian and Czech goshawks, wouldn't they cross the german border. How about the Russian gosses crossing into Northern Finland ?


Where goshawks ever extinct in Finland ???????


Jim.

[ChrisGos]

At the end of the day when people talk about finish birds all they mean is a bigger stock. I am not bothered about the size of my gosses but if I bought a bird that was meant to be a fin and it flew at 2lb 13/14 and I traced it back and it was actually a german bird, would I be bothered??? NO! and nor would you. Because the only reason you would be buying a finn is for the size.

Tom

Also that they are meant to be steadier in their temperament over German birds. That's my experience anyway.

[Phill Gibbons]

At the end of the day when people talk about finish birds all they mean is a bigger stock. I am not bothered about the size of my gosses but if I bought a bird that was meant to be a fin and it flew at 2lb 13/14 and I traced it back and it was actually a german bird, would I be bothered??? NO! and nor would you. Because the only reason you would be buying a finn is for the size.

Tomyes agree if you bought a gos that was supposed to be fin and id b peed off if it turned out to not be .. But i dont agree that falconers only buy a finn for size other things like temperment coulor and ofcource cost are all key factors....

[HorseBox]

At the end of the day when people talk about finish birds all they mean is a bigger stock. I am not bothered about the size of my gosses but if I bought a bird that was meant to be a fin and it flew at 2lb 13/14 and I traced it back and it was actually a german bird, would I be bothered??? NO! and nor would you. Because the only reason you would be buying a finn is for the size.

TomNo i would not be bothered i never said i would but lets sell by weight and size not nationality that's the fairest if i go buy a bird i am quite open and say i dont care if its cross this or pure that i want a good size bird so i dont no what the no nor would you coment is all about

[HorseBox]

Also that they are meant to be steadier in their temperament over German birds. That's my experience anyway.I dont think you read the post

[HorseBox]

My brother has got a book written on gos its a scientific study recons after the use of DDT ect in Scandinavia last century the gos was all most extinct there so a massive effort was made in Germany to catch wild gos there and release back in the wild in Scandinavia what do all the mine are pure finn people think about that then could it be that pure finn are in fact pure German or mostly German can they live with such a revelation ops have i inadvertently let the cat out of the bag THIS IS THE POST

[Goshawker 20]

At the end of the day you pays your money you takes your choice you go to buy a fin female and it comes out the avairy at 2.6 and aint the colour you want tell him put it back if your happy take it home simple:twisted:

Rob

[Casper]

My Great, Great Uncle Albert, had Finnish before that happened in Finland so i must be the only one with PURES IN THIS COUNTRY. My Females are only $5000. I'm taking orders.:razz::yawinkle:

[Casper]

My Great, Great Uncle Albert, had Finnish before that happened in Finland so i must be the only one with PURES IN THIS COUNTRY. My Females are only $5000. I'm taking orders.:razz::yawinkle: Sorry they have gone up to £6000 as they fly 2lb 12-3lb

[Tom Kent Gos]

Also that they are meant to be steadier in their temperament over German birds. That's my experience anyway.

Not in mine mate, just what I think. But I also think that all gosses are getting demesticated over years and years of human contact. If you compare the gosses today with gosses 20 years a go they are a different bird.

Tom

[Tom Kent Gos]

At the end of the day you pays your money you takes your choice you go to buy a fin female and it comes out the avairy at 2.6 and aint the colour you want tell him put it back if your happy take it home simple:twisted:

Rob

I agree.

[HorseBox]

My Great, Great Uncle Albert, had Finnish before that happened in Finland so i must be the only one with PURES IN THIS COUNTRY. My Females are only $5000. I'm taking orders.:razz::yawinkle: Sorry they have gone up to £6000 as they fly 2lb 12-3lbYOUR uncle
int the one that kept getting sunk in the war was he

[OutFlying]

Looking at this map, I wonder which goshawks will cross the borders easily.

http://www.world-maps.co.uk/maps/600-europe.jpg

[Tom Kent Gos]

yes agree if you bought a gos that was supposed to be fin and id b peed off if it turned out to not be .. But i dont agree that falconers only buy a finn for size other things like temperment coulor and ofcource cost are all key factors....

No one spends £2000 on a gos because they like the finnish coulor, well if they do they are an idiot. At the end of the day you get really steady finns and really nervous ones, and the same with germans. I for one have a very steady cross female and she is not a massive bird, but the only reason I would pay more money for a finn is if it was bigger, the rest of it you take a chance.

regards

Tom

[Che2]

so how we suposed to tell with imprints at ten days old on how heavy or what coulour they they are going to be i dont rearly care as long as they do the job

[Pendleside]

HI pete the words all most extinct gives an idea of the state of the gos population

your reply doesnt answer the original question .
give me the facts i.e. years of supplementary releases and numbers released , the year the problem was discovered and percentages lost of original population . (pre ddt population)

[Tom Kent Gos]

so how we suposed to tell with imprints at ten days old on how heavy or what coulour they they are going to be i dont rearly care as long as they do the job

Thats what im getting at!

[Paris]

Looking at this map, I wonder which goshawks will cross the borders easily.

http://www.world-maps.co.uk/maps/600-europe.jpg

PURER FINNISH FEMALE GOSHAWK 3lb 13 oz or 1720gr :heart: out of the weathering.

A passage bird from estonia?????? is it finnish or is it russsan.????.

hope this helps . Harry Pyle.

[Big JoeJoe]

What is this book called?????????

Sounds a bit far fetched to me :lol:

Cheers Joe

[Paris]

What is this book called?????????

Sounds a bit far fetched to me :lol:

Cheers Joe

Hi Big JJ i did not know goshawks can read i just thought they just fly and fly.

Harry.

[Pendleside]

My brother has got a book written on gos its a scientific study recons after the use of DDT ect in Scandinavia last century the gos was all most extinct there so a massive effort was made in Germany to catch wild gos there and release back in the wild in Scandinavia

ddt was first synthasized in 1874 but its properties as an insecticide was discovered by a swiss scientist in 1939 .
it was used widely throughout the 40's and 50's .
in the 60's people were becoming more aware of inherant problems in the chemical and started to look seriously at the effect it was having .
the first ban on the use of ddt was implemented in 1970 .........................

guess where ?

norway and sweden .

goshawks were being imported from the scandinavian countries all through this time period (40's 50's and 60's) and import continued well into the seventies and beyond .

seems a little strange for a bird on the verge of collapse ?

i have spoken first hand with a gentleman who had been to finland collecting eyass goshawks for breeding programs that were running at this time .
he recalls collecting eyasses from the nest and watching the people overseeing the permitted collection shoot the parents as they tried to defend the nest area .
i have no reason to disbelieve his account .

so this would be another strange thing to happen to a supposedly endangered species in that region .

i cant understand why a government would allow the import of german goshawks to supposedly bolster a near extinct local population , when they were in fact culling the resident goshawk numbers by removal and shooting .
give me the numbers and years previously asked for and lets see if they correspond with my post .

i wont be able to post again after 10-30 / 11-00 pm tonight as i will be away until sunday so a quick reply would be appreciated .

[Che2]

how bout this german femail she now weighs 3 and a half pound

[Redeye]

Considering that Goshawks in Finland are going to be living in the primarily arboreal forests where you would assume there is minimal agriculture and therefore minimal requirements for ddt & therefore as the prey is not going to be walking around full of ddt waiting to top up a gos i find it hard to see how they could be brought to a state of collapse. Any ideas?

[Casper]

PURER FINNISH FEMALE GOSHAWK 3lb 13 oz or 1720gr :heart: out of the weathering.

A passage bird from estonia?????? is it finnish or is it russsan.????.

hope this helps . Harry Pyle.

Are you sure that hasn't got any German or Hungarian in it ?:rolleyes:

[Pendleside]

how bout this german femail she now weighs 3 and a half pound

and her flying weight is ?

[Che2]

and her flying weight is ?

2/10

[Redeye]

PURER FINNISH FEMALE GOSHAWK 3lb 13 oz or 1720gr :heart: out of the weathering.

A passage bird from estonia?????? is it finnish or is it russsan.????.

hope this helps . Harry Pyle.

its neither its estonian:rolleyes:

[Pendleside]

Considering that Goshawks in Finland are going to be living in the primarily arboreal forests where you would assume there is minimal agriculture and therefore minimal requirements for ddt & therefore as the prey is not going to be walking around full of ddt waiting to top up a gos i find it hard to see how they could be brought to a state of collapse. Any ideas?

i have one .

the original post is flawed .
i would like to see the name of this scientific study, the statistics from this scientific study , and also the name of the scientist who wrote the thesis.

just had another one .

its a wind up .:yawinkle:

[Redeye]

i

its a wind up .:yawinkle:

my thoughts exactly.......no book name, no reference, nothing and the most improbable theory that a massive reintroduction would have been carried out in the mid 20th century. And nobodies ever heard about it?

[Pendleside]

all this talk of weights , size , and subspecies reminds me of something a fella named darren from north yorkshire said to me this summer .
he had asked me if i knew anyone who was looking for eyass gosses .
i asked what they were and he replied "they're english" .:rolleyes:

"the parents weigh ??? and ??? , and the young weigh ??? and will probably fly something around ??? , so you work out what subspecies you want them to be , but they were bred in yorkshire so i reckon they are english" .:lol::lol:

nuff said .:supz:

[Pure Blood]

Does size really matter as long as you yourself are happy with the bird you have and it is doing as you would want it too

PAUL
the misses said YES MATE 2 THAT 1 PMSL

[MusketMad]

there are a lot more facts to survivale than just climate, its reconed that 75% of all birds dont make through there first year.As falconers we keep these ones that would possiblies have die alive are these the ones that might just not have made it in life the 75% ers the poor performers....If you want to be really picky ...research was done on sparrowhawks in 1983 and the mortality rate in the first year was 69% for cocks and 51% for hens:lol:

[Pure Blood]

NOT finnish , have you heard them call ? must be irish :lol:

[Pendleside]

NOT finnish , have you heard them call ? must be irish :lol:

must be tired cus that one flew right over my head .:-|

[CanadaManada]

10/15 year guess is irrelevent.

The bones of the post made alot of sence to me for what its worth,

Atb,,not an argument (my reply) just an oppinion....

I think it is relevant. You have to look at the amount of time the German birds were in Scandinavia, breeding, and then think about when the "Finnish" lines made their way to the UK.

[HorseBox]

I think it is relevant. You have to look at the amount of time the German birds were in Scandinavia, breeding, and then think about when the "Finnish" lines made their way to the UK.WHEN i get time i will have a look through the book and i will give title ect i am not sure but i think 50s but i will check when i have a look

[Dave G]

at the end of the day a goss is a goss big small they still fly low and fast ;) /dave

[Pete Kent]

how bout this german femail she now weighs 3 and a half pound

Any Gos who can hang off the side of a perch and keep straight legs is obviously a very strong bird and will do for me !!

[Che2]

Any Gos who can hang off the side of a perch and keep straight legs is obviously a very strong bird and will do for me !!
wots that suposed to mean bit confused

[GoodFooter]

wots that suposed to mean bit confused

the photo you posted looks like the bird is perching horizontally:lol: it would have to be blooming strong to do that!!! photo need turning 90 degrees.

[GoodFooter]

No one spends £2000 on a gos because they like the finnish coulor, well if they do they are an idiot.
regards

Tom

people pay £8000 for an albidus .... because of colour ( or lack of it) and £15,000 for a certain colour Gyr.

Are fins a different colour to germans? all look the same to be :lol:.....seem to get dark fins, light fins same with germans .....then theres the red/brown czech havent seen one but there is a good photo in mcdermmots accipitrine problems book.

[BarbaryHawking06]

I guess this female is really finnish??
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Cv_a8a33M

[Paris]

I guess this female is really finnish??
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Cv_a8a33M

THIS IS REALY FINNISH GOSHAWKS :heart::heart: PICS TAKEN IN FINNLAND 06.

Regards Harry Pyle,

[John Dumbar]

And quite dark...although finnish
Regards.

[Redeye]

THIS IS REALY FINNISH GOSHAWKS :heart:PICS TAKEN IN FINNLAND 06.

Regards Harry Pyle,


look german too me:lol::rolleyes::wink:

[CanadaManada]

look german too me:lol::rolleyes::wink:

immigrant gos :supz:

[BarbaryHawking06]

THIS IS REALY FINNISH GOSHAWKS :heart::heart: PICS TAKEN IN FINNLAND 06.

Regards Harry Pyle,

Curious that you don't see the feet of the bird (jesses?) and the beak is a bit overgrown, something that you don't see often in wild birds, also the moult should be completed by winter time but it is not, just a few thoughts?

this picture was taken from the same page as the photo of Paris but looks far more finnish especially if you look at the bars of the tail, you will note a fine white line below the bars, wich some wise falconer (who had made several journeys to finland, for scientific reasons only of course ;-) ) told me to be typical for finnish birds

http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/0accgen009.html