Peregrines at Gulls/Rooks.

[Mark Collins]

Hi, anybody out there flying straight f,peregrines at gulls/rooks? It would appear that most of us are flying hybreds at this quarry , me included , its all i flew years ago, but then i used to fly game,mark.

[Illustrator]

I have noticed the same, as many are working the land fills with them, there doesn't seem many flying much game either with either but that may be down to work commitments. Seems a pity for some of these birds to be wedded to seagulls and rooks although I'm sure the flights are spectacular sometimes, i think a-lot don't fly for the pot anymore.

[Giant Panda]

Hi, anybody out there flying straight f,peregrines at gulls/rooks? It would appear that most of us are flying hybreds at this quarry , me included , its all i flew years ago, but then i used to fly game,mark.

Hi Mark.
I used to fly straight Peregrines at rooks (and so occassionally crows) on Salisbury Plain when I lived down south.When I moved to Norfolk I tried a couple of Pere/Sakers which were ok but lacked that 'certain something'.(style mabey?)

I think a lot of people fly hybrids at corvids because either
A; some crosses are cheaper than Peres'
B;they believe that hybrids are better in enclosed country.

Just a few thoughts, Jim

[Goldie]

Judging by the second picture Mark, it was more than just a "few" years ago :lol:

I think you are right about the Pure v hybrid issue tho, it seems that there are very few people crow hawking with pure pere females nowadays. In years gone by if you wanted to crow hawk with a falcon then the pere was the only real choice you had, but now you can buy a hybrid falcon for a couple of hundred quid.

[TiercelMan]

Hi, anybody out there flying straight f,peregrines at gulls/rooks? It would appear that most of us are flying hybreds at this quarry , me included , its all i flew years ago, but then i used to fly game,mark.

Mark,
I start off my peregrine at rooks/crows 'n gulls during August to get her good and fit for game hawking from September onward. I've had no problem switching from corvids to grouse and pheasants. I let her weight creep up as she gets fit and she soon indicates when she's ready for for waiting on as she comes back high after an unsuccessful crow flight.

I have done this often in the past with passage and haggard peregrines with no problem. I think people underestimate their intelligence, as peregrines soon get to know the differance in the setups between rook hawking and game hawking. Blaine and a lot of the oldtimers used to do this regularly, and there was no telemetry then!
As far as flying straight peregrines compared to the average hybrid, no contest, the peregrine wins hands down for style of flight if flown in the right country. Yes hybrids will no doubt win the numbers game 'cos of their tendency to follow into cover, but it depends on what you want from a flight. I can feel the vibes of opposition as I close!!!!!!!:lol::wink:

[Fenlands Rescue]

i will be putting my pure peregrine onto live quarry next week.
will let you know what she does.

[Mark Collins]

Wise words guys, Goldie it seems like forever ago, its probably about 1991. The picture was at a field meet, southeastern ,tilbury club, the falcon killed a woodcock at the field meet, it was suggested that i offer it to the landowner as a token gesture, he probably wont want it , i was told, bloody joking he ripped me hand off to get it!!!!,mark.

[Yorky]

Going to watch this one with interest!!!

[Matthew Patching]

I have a couple of things to say on this matter, when people of old flew peregrines that was the only real choice they had, since in this day and age we have the ability to chose the bird that I want to fly.

I chose to fly a hybrid, because They do the job more efficiently.

The question of hawking for the pot, has been raised, If you want to eat crows, Ill send you some up!:lol:

[Mark Collins]

Nice answer Matt, always sure of a little reaction from you and good old shaun, good hawking mate, i enjoy are little bits of banter, cheers, mark. ps what would you say the best bird would be for snipe?????

[Eznugud]

First of all can someone explain to me what is meant by “style”?

I have hunted crow / rooks with Female Peregrines, Female Hybrids and Male Hybrids.

When I first started hunting crows I used Female Peregrines because at the time they were the best option, hybrids were available but they were quite new.
After about 3 seasons with Peregrines I got a Pere x Saker and have stuck with hybrids ever since, it’s had nothing to do with cost, it not because I hunt in an enclosed environment {far from it}, it’s simply because they do the job better than my Peregrines did.

I have not changed my style of hunting crows; I take the same type of slips with a hybrid that I did with a Peregrine and in the same environment
I averaged about 50 to 70 kills a season with a Peregrine and 150+ kills per season with a hybrid.
Hybrids more so the Gyr x Pere hunt crows with an enthusiasm that’s difficult to match once entered, they are the equal of any Peregrine in the air but are also more willing to go smashing into a crow that’s gone to ground.

That said I have been toying with the idea of trying another Female Peregrine now that I understand more about getting a falcon into condition etc.
It would be a nice to try a Peregrine again and see if I could make a difference now I have a lot more years experience under my belt.

[AccyFalcons]

hi,
i fly a imprint scottish peregrine female at corvids and this is her third season at them,at first it was hard to get her interested in them but once she had 1 there was no stopping her.shes had dabbles at gulls too but if its a big gull she doesnt fly them with sheer determination.she still waits on for game too but its a pain some times when she rakes off on a crow.
cant beat seeing a good flight on a crow though:supz:

all the best chris

[Mark Collins]

All the hybrids we talk about [apart from the gyr saker ] are 50% peregrine , its because they give a good even temperament generally, speed and style, compared to a straight saker for instance, there is a hell off a differance , the peregrine/saker gets its speed and style from the peregrine, not the other way around, not to many straight sakers being flown at gulls/crows.

[Mark Collins]

I have open a huge can of worms now, good night poping in the shower then of to bed goodnight . xx

[Eznugud]

All the hybrids we talk about [apart from the gyr saker ] are 50% peregrine , its because they give a good even temperament generally, speed and style, compared to a straight saker for instance, there is a hell off a differance , the peregrine/saker gets its speed and style from the peregrine, not the other way around, not to many straight sakers being flown at gulls/crows.

But what is Style?

Why cant a Pere x Saker get Style from a Saker?

[AyrshireTaxidermy]

I have open a huge can of worms now, good night poping in the shower then of to bed goodnight . xx


EHHHHHHHHH! Dunno about the rest of the guys, but i dont want any goodnight kisses Mark, but thanks anyway :lol::lol::lol:

[Hacker]

"Style",
maybe the way the falcon pursues the quarry, ie,
does she weigh up the situation and either use height to her advantage or maybe the contours of the surrounding landscape in order to catch her prey.
Some birds especially young ones just seem to go blazing in just hoping to get a foot to something and invariably miss!
Altogether a bit of a hash and seriously lacking any "style"

[Eznugud]

The way I see it style means different things to different people, and you can say because it’s a peregrine it’s got style and because it’s a saker it’s got no style….

For example:
A friend of mine fly’s a female peregrine at crows, if the crow gets put under to much pressure and lands in the middle of a field like they sometimes do his Peregrine will whack it half a dozen time before actually slamming in to it.
Now he calls that “Stylish” I call it twatish…………….

[Hacker]

The way I see it style means different things to different people, and you can say because it’s a peregrine it’s got style and because it’s a saker it’s got no style….

For example:
A friend of mine fly’s a female peregrine at crows, if the crow gets put under to much pressure and lands in the middle of a field like they sometimes do his Peregrine will whack it half a dozen time before actually slamming in to it.
Now he calls that “Stylish” I call it twatish…………….

Have to agree with that.
Definatly no style to that kill.
But some people are just happy with a kill whatever the situation.
And yet again the situation can further determine the difficulty of a flight and hence the potential style to an eventual outcome.

[Hacker]

An example,
an area with no cover as far as the eye can see and a large fock of rooks.
Slip the bird and off it goes straight at the flock, no chance to use cover but no attempt at gaining height, just a straight tail chase, couple this with a bailing out rook and the flight ends with a straight bind from behind.
A kill yes, but nothing more.
Now introduce some slight cover, maybe even a fence and it can produce a totally different flight, with the rook diving in and out of the fence for cover and the falcon stooping and throwing up in order to try to connect with the fleeing quarry.
Or in the first scenario, the bird gains height along with the quarry and each tries to outfly one another, the classic ringing flight.

[MusketMad]

Normally when people fly pure peregrine at rooks is when they have ****ed it up as a game hawk :lol:
How many times have you seen peris in the cage and avairy"FOR SALE PERIGRINE WILL MAKE GOOD ROOK HAWK"....what it should say is "ive ****ed it up"

[Hacker]

Normally when people fly pure peregrine at rooks is when they have ****ed it up as a game hawk :lol:
How many times have you seen peris in the cage and avairy"FOR SALE PERIGRINE WILL MAKE GOOD ROOK HAWK"....what it should say is "ive ****ed it up"

I doubt wether the old rook hawking club would agree with that lol.:roll::roll:

[MusketMad]

I doubt wether the old rook hawking club would agree with that lol.:roll::roll:i make you right richard ill probably get hammered for that comment :lol:but its true ....ive never been a fan of hybridisation of falcons because i like the traditional stuff with indigenous species ..but i know that hybrids are now part and parcel of the way falconry is now changing ..Im no expert when it comes to flying falcons for landfill ,urban etc..but from what im hearing they are ideal for this sort of work ..tim swears by them .peri/sakers being a favorite with most of you guys me thinks

[Eznugud]

An example,
an area with no cover as far as the eye can see and a large fock of rooks.
Slip the bird and off it goes straight at the flock, no chance to use cover but no attempt at gaining height, just a straight tail chase, couple this with a bailing out rook and the flight ends with a straight bind from behind.
A kill yes, but nothing more.
Now introduce some slight cover, maybe even a fence and it can produce a totally different flight, with the rook diving in and out of the fence for cover and the falcon stooping and throwing up in order to try to connect with the fleeing quarry.
Or in the first scenario, the bird gains height along with the quarry and each tries to outfly one another, the classic ringing flight.

During the falcons early training I’m more than happy with the first example, in fact for the first 5 or 6 kills that’s exactly what I am looking for, but I wouldn’t be happy with that day in and day out and try my best to avoid it…….

The main way I try to avoid that type of outcome is to fly a male, corvids are less intimidated by the smaller males and the chances of a corvid bailing out straight away are a little less than with a female.

Secondly, once the falcons had 5 or 6 kills under its belt I stop slipping a large flocks {unless that’s all I can find} and look for groups of 6 or less.

Third, the distance of the slip is a very important factor on how the corvid reacts, in good weather conditions with a bit of a breeze I am looking for 100yd+ slips especially with a gyr x pere.
Any closer and the falcon puts the crow under to much pressure to early and they tend to bail out.

Personally I don’t mind a straight tail chase and the falcon binding to the crow in the air after a few twist and turns, I don’t mind if the falcon hits the crow on the floor after the crows bailed if the falcons put it under pressure and its been a decent tail chase…….I don’t like it when the crows bails out straight away and the falcon drops on it…

[Hacker]

first it was an example,
secondly presumed a well entered falcon.
thirdly i did mention a slip with no cover within a reasonable distance.
So yes i have to agree with you as basically it is the same as has been said previously.

[Eznugud]

first it was an example,
secondly presumed a well entered falcon.
thirdly i did mention a slip with no cover within a reasonable distance.
So yes i have to agree with you as basically it is the same as has been said previously.

Lost me................

[Giant Panda]

During the falcons early training I’m more than happy with the first example, in fact for the first 5 or 6 kills that’s exactly what I am looking for, but I wouldn’t be happy with that day in and day out and try my best to avoid it…….

The main way I try to avoid that type of outcome is to fly a male, corvids are less intimidated by the smaller males and the chances of a corvid bailing out straight away are a little less than with a female.

Secondly, once the falcons had 5 or 6 kills under its belt I stop slipping a large flocks {unless that’s all I can find} and look for groups of 6 or less.

Third, the distance of the slip is a very important factor on how the corvid reacts, in good weather conditions with a bit of a breeze I am looking for 100yd+ slips especially with a gyr x pere.
Any closer and the falcon puts the crow under to much pressure to early and they tend to bail out.

Personally I don’t mind a straight tail chase and the falcon binding to the crow in the air after a few twist and turns, I don’t mind if the falcon hits the crow on the floor after the crows bailed if the falcons put it under pressure and its been a decent tail chase…….I don’t like it when the crows bails out straight away and the falcon drops on it…
Ref 'style';
So you don't think you are trying to create a stylish flight by flying a tiercel as opposed to a falcon then or by increasing the distance you slip from, or mabey choosing a rook/crow on passage as opposed to feeding on the ground?
Remeber the buzz when you first caught anything black in any way?It didn't matter did it?It was a kill!! But as you say, by experience you fly a tiercel as a rook may attempt to outfly it instead of bottling out and hitting the ground.

All the Peregrines I ever flew at rooks tended to push them up into the air and sheppered them about the sky in an attempt to single one out.Sometimes diving through the flock to push them back up away from a bush a sheep and sometimes my car!
I've only ever tried one Gyr/Pere at rooks and he went off the fist like lightning straight at the flock,stood on his tail and took a rook on the way up!
Bloody amazing, but a different kind of style.

I flew one Altai saker.It was generally far too windy on the Plain for her.Somedays it was like putting a feather duster out the window.:rolleyes:

[Mark Collins]

Sakers dont have style just dogged persistence. Watch a realy good tiercel peregrine at 800 ft ,and watch it come down on a partridge ,and not bind to it because he is going to fast, but crack it one, and kill it in the stoop ,thats style, i once had a tiercel peregrine that would do just that, some f.peregrines will level out and bind to game as they approach it , a good stylish tiercel will smack it , my old tiercel once stooped at some teal , he was about 700 ft up he hit the teal so hard, he broke its wing in the stoop [style] .

[Mark Collins]

Shaun , maybe you havnt seen a falcon with style !!!! xxxxx

[Eznugud]

Sakers dont have style just dogged persistence. Watch a realy good tiercel peregrine at 800 ft ,and watch it come down on a partridge ,and not bind to it because he is going to fast, but crack it one, and kill it in the stoop ,thats style, i once had a tiercel peregrine that would do just that, some f.peregrines will level out and bind to game as they approach it , a good stylish tiercel will smack it , my old tiercel once stooped at some teal , he was about 700 ft up he hit the teal so hard, he broke its wing in the stoop [style] .

Your not getting what I’m trying to say are you Mark…?

Style is in the eye of the beholder, what’s stylish to someone can be pants to someone else.
A bird does not have to have “I am a Peregrine Falcon” stamped on its forehead to have style………

Going on the example you have just give about the stylish peregrine that was going to fast to bind to the partridge…….
Are you saying that a Saker putting in stoop after stoop striking a hare is not style?



Shaun , maybe you havnt seen a falcon with style !!!! xxxxx

I’ve seen Plenty Mark but not all were called Peregrine Falcon..

[Mark Collins]

Hi Shaun, ronaldo of man utd , now thats style!!!! ronaldino also.!!!!!!

[Eznugud]

Ref 'style';
So you don't think you are trying to create a stylish flight by flying a tiercel as opposed to a falcon then or by increasing the distance you slip from, or mabey choosing a rook/crow on passage as opposed to feeding on the ground?
Remeber the buzz when you first caught anything black in any way?It didn't matter did it?It was a kill!! But as you say, by experience you fly a tiercel as a rook may attempt to outfly it instead of bottling out and hitting the ground.

All the Peregrines I ever flew at rooks tended to push them up into the air and sheppered them about the sky in an attempt to single one out.Sometimes diving through the flock to push them back up away from a bush a sheep and sometimes my car!
I've only ever tried one Gyr/Pere at rooks and he went off the fist like lightning straight at the flock,stood on his tail and took a rook on the way up!
Bloody amazing, but a different kind of style.

I flew one Altai saker.It was generally far too windy on the Plain for her.Somedays it was like putting a feather duster out the window.:rolleyes:

I don’t know if I’m trying to create a stylish flight, I’m definitely trying to create the style of flight I like to see. {Just read that and its sounds like I’m contradicting myself but I know what I mean}
I get that buzz every time I catch a crow.

[Eznugud]

Hi Shaun, ronaldo of man utd , now thats style!!!! ronaldino also.!!!!!!

That’s the problem Mark, your getting style mixed up with flair………….:wink:

[TiercelMan]

some f.peregrines will level out and bind to game as they approach it , a good stylish tiercel will smack it , my old tiercel once stooped at some teal , he was about 700 ft up he hit the teal so hard, he broke its wing in the stoop [style] .

Slightly off topic Mark but couldn't risist it. Stylish also when a tiercel, like "Jink" a brookei I had, comes from a vast height and has enough composure and confidence to purposely slow up from it's stoop, level out, fly underneath a covey, and bind to the leading partridge with an uppercut. STYLE

Steve Franks tiercel "Mad Harry" would either kill or dissable grouse in its devastating stoop either killing out right or taking a wing off just as you described with the teal, doing this consistantly STYLE

[Matthew Patching]

purposely slow up from it's stoop, level out, fly underneath a covey, and bind to the leading partridge

You see thats what I call style, over shooting in a stoop is a bad habit that is caused by high weight in a a crow hawk, (in my opinion)!

[Mark Collins]

I don’t know if I’m trying to create a stylish flight, I’m definitely trying to create the style of flight I like to see. {Just read that and its sounds like I’m contradicting myself but I know what I mean}
I get that buzz every time I catch a crow.

Shaun, me old mate i hate to say it but you contradicte yourself about twice a week xxxxx

[Martin Whitley]

I have only flown 2 peregrines at crows so have limited experience of them, the first one made a hash of its 3rd catch and got quite a pecking, she never looked at a crow again.
The second had loads of "style"( if that is what you would cal it) she would stoop at a crow time after time, but was incredibly reluctant to connect unless it was a perfect hit
Very spectacular to watch, frighteningly inefficient at catching crows as time after time she would loose crows to very distant cover. Some would call this style, I called it serious inefficiency, And if one of my Peregrine/saker's was flying like that I would say it was not trying hard enough.
After these two I did not bother again,I much prefer the hard at them style of the hybrids, and I would say I get more high flights because of that as they don't give the crows the room to maneuverer that the peregrine did

[Illustrator]

Flying crows and rooks with peregrines is like buying a matching pair of purdy's to go shooting rats with.:lol:

[Eznugud]

Flying crows and rooks with peregrines is like buying a matching pair of purdy's to go shooting rats with.:lol:

And is that the voice of experience or of someone that’s never actually done it….

[Illustrator]

And is that the voice of experience or of someone that’s never actually done it….
Yes i have shot a rat with a purdy but wouldn't bother buying a peregrine for crow and rooks or sky rats:lol:

I suppose i will be publicly be-headed for this, i am only winding you all up don't take me seriously, i don't.