Attention all lure swingers!!!

[Jonny]

Hey everyone,
Just thought i would write in to help anyone who was in my situation.
I am sure there are thousands of people here who fly falcons to the lure doing passes. This post is aimed at them and especially at anyone of them who is doing this and has a bird constantly sitting.
4 months ago my bird realised that when i took her to fly and do passes on the lure there was an easier option than to constantly stay airborne. This was to sit.
It started with a quick sit to catch her breath and then it became longer and longer until, as soon as she was released she would go up to a post and sit there!!!
I tried everything to stop her doing this from giving her small meals when she did sit to punish her and make her more interested in my food the next day. This worked for a while until she thought, "Why don't i just go and get my own food!" and off she went and caught her own pigeons. (Which she could do everytime she wanted to after being trained to be the perfect pigeon killer by me!!!)
I was now in a very bad situation, where if i gave her too much food she would sit out of laziness and too little food she would get her own meal. This also meant i could not use food to reward or punish her for her flight depending on how she did. So i decided to start from scratch and train her again from scratch. This didn't work!!! She went back to her old ways after the first session!
I had one last option. (and this is the important part of the post!) I decided not give her anymore passes and just give her the lure the first time it was offered on the ground. I did this for three session. No passes just one clean hit and a big meal until she was coming straight away from her favourite post!!! and then finally today, i took her to fly with more bad expectations of more sitting or flying away!
I let her go and she began to go in a straight line. I took out the lure and swung it and she turned and headed back, i hide it. She circled me for a bit and then started going off again, i got out the lure swung it, she turned around and i hide it. (never giving her the false impression that she was going to get it but giving her the hope.)
She circled abit more and started going off again (this time to sit) I offered the lure and dropped it on the ground. She immediately turned around, came back and landed on it!
For the first time in about 4 months she had not sat and had not flown more than 75metres from me!!! As you can probably guess, she got a big meal!!!
I am going to continue by making the sessions slightly longer trying to keep her airborne as long as possible.
Incase you are wondering, the point of this post is a warning to all lure swingers to not over-do it. Don't tire your falcon out so it has to sit for this habit might just stay; and to all lure-swingers whose birds are sitting do what i did and tell me if it works.
This post is based on my experiences and is in my opinion. I am no expert and am just trying to help anyone in previous my position and make sure nobody falls into this position.
I am sorry to have made this post so long, but it might be the difference between a good and bad season for you and your bird.
Thanks for reading if you made it to the end!!!!
Jonny.

[OhMyGod]

jonny dude, what bird was this? never ever show your bird the lure then take it away, you should know not to trick her or rob her! I do kind of see your point though. If your bird sits you can put her dinner on the lure, hood her up and long lure her (with a friend) 3 5 8 houndred metres, then do one pass, two passes next day 3 and so on. Whenever your bird passes you she should almost catch the lure, with say less than 5cm between her feet and the lure, or she should just scrape it with her feet not quite binding properly improving her footing. Pass it out to her beak as far as you can and pull it at the same speed so she reaches out and chases it. always let her have the lure using this technique also, never throw it up for her as she will never chase it hard if you do this. I also believe you should know when your bird is tired and never overwork her, let her catch you out and think she has done well when she is still strong on the wing, not flying likeshit knackered. somdays 3 passes twice or three times a day somtimes 30 passes or whatever. Make ABSOLUTELY SURE your bird thinks that she can and does catch you out!!

[Hawkmaster]

MOVED TO LONGWINGS 8)

Have you flown a falcon before?

Paul

[Wightwings]

some good points OMG , variety is the spice of life and in truth bad lure swinging can have the same effect as bad routine. If the bird has to chase the lure hard and you can utilise different passing techniques she will enjoy the experiance as much as you.
not too sure what you mean about the hiding thing most falconers will get a bird chasing then hide the lure to train waiting on, i.e.she knows you have it "somewhere" cause she's just been chasing it so she will stay above or near by waiting for.
I presume you mean if she starts into a pass then you hide it.....a bad move i would agree. also a very good point about the catching you out thing, they have to always think they can or will just give up.
Good thread hope to see some more onput from others

[OhMyGod]

cool ww, I would not fly a game hawk to my lure though, I would fly her at a kite or throw lure then pull baggies from my pocket and serve them everyday, so they pitch consistantly without going for check. too many pidgeons about. You can buy white pidgeons cheep as chips and they come home to their buddies at night. or you can make quale etc

[Shaun Byrne]

Well I must confess I hide my lure after passing all the time. I'll cast my bird and let it range out for a few minutes then do a few passes, let it range again then bring it in for a workout. I think it teaches a bird to keep an eye on you, not knowing when the lure is going to appear. I find this very useful if you have a bird that will throw up vertical after 1 pass. To try and pass a bird that is coming straight down on you is difficult, if you van even SEE it. If you hide the lure at this point it can give you the few seconds needed to get your head together.
I will say though, that I have 2 birds, that if the lure is hidden, will hit whatever they think the lure is in, bag, hand, glove even your head. So with these 2 I wait until they reach a decent pitch then bring them in.

[Wightwings]

Fair play OMG i must admit to never having trained a longwing as a gam hawk and have no qualms about admitting to that. Most of the birds i have done have been for display work so lure chasing and waiting on so you can chat are very important.
I should imagine apart from the entering aspect it the same basic tho.

must admit i do like reading and discussing anything to do with lure work i find it facinating, its you against the bird and when you get them fit is great fun.

(oops sorry all you hardened game hawkers out there)

[OhMyGod]

So your birds are mainly display? where do you do your displays, and what longwings do you find work best for you as far as impressing the public. Do your longwings pitch and pull full verts for them?

Maybe this should be a pm but perhaps others will read also

[GoneHawking]

OMG - Baggies???? not sure if you train a Hawk/Falcon properly you should need to use baggies, Plus not legal to use baggies in the UK.
For a bird that really doesn't get the message then baggies can teach a bird about height and footing etc, but I can imagine first time would be longwingers buying lots of baggies and just letting their birds catch them willy nilly, without teaching the young birds anything, this is not good falconry and should not be taught as such.

[Wightwings]

dont want to go too far off thread OMg but no longer fly birds for display work, moved house and other issues stopped all that about 18 mnths ago.

had a gyr/saker/prairie imprint that would chase for hours if you let him or had the stamina, a pere/saker that would chase and climb vertical above your head stall turn and drop vertical at you.
a female per/saker that would climb high and ride the winds until she was a spot and when you got the lure out would tuck and stoop, do a couple of passes and then expect to have it.......and ANOTHER gyr/saker/prairie that liked to come at you through anything he could at low level, i.e. trees, buildings and people.

All very entertaining but not game hawking i know

[Shaun Byrne]

OMG, yes mate all my longwings are display birds now. I find hunting with falcons hard work and dont enjoy it so I stick to hunting with hawks. In my experience, the best display falcons are Gyr/ Lanners. The lanner is excellent but is a little small for the crowd to see sometimes. The size and extra power of the Gyr make them spectacular. I like to get all my birds going on the kite to get them to pitch and give them confidence. Once a bird will go up 1000ft easily I start sending up a plain lure, no food. Normally the bird will take a look at the lure and see there's no food, thats the point you get the lure out and bring them in.
We have a male Gyr/Lanner that will wait on at 1500-2000ft while we fly hawks and owls below him. As soon as he sees the lure he stoops vertical on top of you. He wont pass, you have to give him the lure or he throws a wobbler.
Once a bird will pitch at a decent height all you need to do is play with their weight a little, 1/2oz low and they're on you like a wasp, 1/2oz high and they will range out and ring up and be a bit more patient.

[GoneHawking]

WW - Sounds like you have flown some cracking birds, the old saying of don't stoop a game hawk to the lure because it will lower it's pitch is rubbish as far as i'm concerned, this may have been the case with passage birds or falcons that have been hacked because they were already fit, but eyass aviary bred falcons need to be worked and got fit before entering, Also as these post have proved if used properly the lure can be a great training tool and can get falcons flying harder and higher, used incorrectly can potentially ruin any falcon.

[OhMyGod]

surely the idea of baggies is to teach your bird not to go off pitch, it waits on until you flush somthing for it to club. if you are having trouble finding game eventually it moves out of pitch then you can pull a white bird for it to stoop knowing it will not catch it, therfore training it to wait on pitch longer.

I also used a white gyr lanner which went to a centre to be used as a display bird, after a while I saw it fly in display and it sat up there till it was ready to come down, and would not stoop for the audience all because it was stooped hard when it did come down and not given one pass and allowed the lure. It was so obedient before this stooping when it came down
ww wicked show

[The Late Lord Lucan]

H4wka wrote.....We have a male Gyr/Lanner that will wait on at 1500-2000ft while we fly hawks and owls below him. As soon as he sees the lure he stoops vertical on top of you. He wont pass, you have to give him the lure or he throws a wobbler
If this was my bird, it would have ended it's display career when it started doing this........hello partridges, come to daddy. :wink:

Regards,
Lucky.

[Hawkmaster]

Me too!

[OhMyGod]

by the way gone hawking lots of things are illegal, soddomy for one. Bet people do that though eh?

[Claire]

Well I must confess I hide my lure after passing all the time. I'll cast my bird and let it range out for a few minutes then do a few passes, let it range again then bring it in for a workout. I think it teaches a bird to keep an eye on you, not knowing when the lure is going to appear. I find this very useful if you have a bird that will throw up vertical after 1 pass. To try and pass a bird that is coming straight down on you is difficult, if you van even SEE it. If you hide the lure at this point it can give you the few seconds needed to get your head together.
I will say though, that I have 2 birds, that if the lure is hidden, will hit whatever they think the lure is in, bag, hand, glove even your head. So with these 2 I wait until they reach a decent pitch then bring them in.
lol if you try this with my mates saker in a vertical dive he aimes for the head lol he once grabbed the falconers backside with all 8 talons cos the falconer hid the lure ha ha ha the stoops are great to watch though so we usually let him get high then just throw the lure out and watch him stoop

[Saker-Clive]

The last time I took my Saker out, she wasn't interested in the lure; she ranged out and up and played the thermals. All the time the lure was out she played. As soon as I hid it....................she came over looking for it; I got it out again...she ranged out. Once she'd had enough of playing, she turned back in, made a few passes then came in!!!!
LOVELY

[OhMyGod]

I think a bird that is coming strait down to you should be passed and let her get real close to it, or catch you out so she known this is what she should be doing more of. after all speed and good flying ability is what catches rooks. If you see them in the wild squabbling what are they doing? stooping each other, and using height advantages. My falcon is in its first season and has taken over 50. One in perticular was above our heads making lots of noise really telling us off. She stooped hard into the wind creating greater distance between the rook and herself, than threw up also using ridge lift when she was directly below it, pumped up and grapped it by the head upside down. That shut it up for good. She would never have known how to do that without catching the lure that way, pulling verts wins. teach them this.

[Claire]

this was a display only falcon and i must admit I have no idea about training a hunting falcon

[GoneHawking]

OMG - I agree that things that are illegal still happen but that doesn't make it right though does it????
My main point is that now hunting is really under the watchfull eye of every tree hugging do gooder in the land we should be extra careful about what we say and do, Imagine someone watching you pull a lovely white pigeon from your bag for your bird to kill, Not only will this not look very sporting but joe public will not understand why you are doing it, and before you know it this will be how all falconers are portrayed, killing defensless white doves, the untrained greenpeace campaigner has no idea about falconry or its techniques, so we need to educate them all with good displays and good birds flown in good style, certainley not broad cast it over the Web for all and sundry to read.

[OhMyGod]

I agree with you totally, but the only people reeding these posts are falconers, is standing in a field with a shot gun shooting brain dead birds sporting? Is flying a cast of hh's on poles at rabbits flushed with ferrets sporting?

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Gonehawking wrote......the untrained greenpeace campaigner has no idea about falconry or its techniques

And until you made two or three posts replying about the use of one 'B' word, using a hundred or so words, even describing colours & types, they probably didn't know what a 'B'aggie was either......... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Regards,
LLL.

[OhMyGod]

quite

[The Late Lord Lucan]

One other thing to bear in mind Gonehawking, this IS an INTERNATIONAL forum.
Bagged game is legal in many countries, the fact that it gets discussed on here should really be irrellevant. What is relevant as far as you are concerned, is wether it gets practiced here in the UK.
I could talk about a murder that I saw on the news, should I get a life sentence?

Regards,
Lucky.

[Wightwings]

all good points, although slightly off thread :lol:

we have had this discussion on other threads about dizzying pigeons etc. in this country its illegal, in this country we have a big anti field sports drive.
just be aware not ALL members on the forum are wht they seemso i would really urge caution discussing this type of subject on an open arena.
just my thoughts guys. :D :D

now what were we talking about :roll:

[OhMyGod]

people who can't swing lures

[The Late Lord Lucan]

WW wrote......just be aware not ALL members on the forum are wht they seemso i would really urge caution discussing this type of subject on an open arena.
just my thoughts guys.

now what were we talking about

I totally respect your points there WW, but like I said, this is an international forum. Why should the peeps from countries where bagged game is legal, feel uncomfortable about talking about it. The fact that this forum has a .co.uk address is really irrellevant. I would like to think that the discussion of such a 'taboo' subject will make people realise that falconers do care, and most have the utmost respect for their quarry.
What is relevant is that there are issues to be seriously considered if & when it is used. Incorrect/inhumane use of bagged game will cause problems, not only to the bird being trained but to falconry as a whole.
Bagged quarry for training purposes is fairly widely used and excepted in the middle east and in the U.S., what business is it of mine to preach what is right or wrong or what they can or can't talk about in their society and culture?
Back to the original post, if I was in Dubai, guess what route I would have taken?

Regards,
Lucky.

[Red Sheridan]

Damn good post m'lud. I could not agree more.

I can also see little point in discussing a point of falconry behaviour that is illegal and hopefully not needed or practiced in this country.

Regards,
Red

PS. Your bananas or mine?

[GoneHawking]

Dont belive that antis dont sign up to such forums to find out information, and if that info is given incorrectly then a whole load of sh%t is started, explaining the use of bagged game in legal countrys would do no harm but seeing it happen without knowing whats what might sound alarm bells ringing. Just be careful how we ALL (me included) present falconry, hopefully to its highest standard.
Not telling people what to do but just dont want those bloody antis to win another battle.
Just for the record I totally support and respect the traditional views and practises of foreign countries, I also find their tecniques fasinating and very interesting.

[Sam_Dyson]

:?

[Afshimo]

Hiya,

I havnt done much on the way of lure swinging yet, but I'll be getting Afra up and going Aprill (hopefully, fingers crossed) and a nice young gyr/saker coming in july/aug (off Mark Rob) so I'll be doing displays with me little sakret and hunting with my g/s. I'm gettin sum lessons (basic help) with a friend to sharpen up on lure swinging.

Has ppl seen the plastic lure handles? Same stuff they make the plastic perches out of? I've got a set and it seems ok, got a wooden one spare too incase there's somethin wrong lol.

Do ppl use leather pads or wings?

Thanks very much,

Hannah

[Shaun Byrne]

A Mark Robb Gyr Saker?? You robbed a bank lol!!

I use both types of lure depending on what the bird prefers but I find that a bird will be more agressive and committed to a wing lure.

The one pass that I find awkward and is worth a lot of work is a pass to the right (if your right handed) its a bit like learning backhand shots in tennis.