Jumping a falcon

[Burn]

am geting a gyr/saka this year for crow hawking and a big factor am worried about is keeping the bird fit. i used to fly goshawks and was able to high the bird on anite after work. Is this possible with a falcon???

thanx adam

[Varvel1]

am geting a gyr/saka this year for crow hawking and a big factor am worried about is keeping the bird fit. i used to fly goshawks and was able to high the bird on anite after work. Is this possible with a falcon???

thanx adam


Yes it is ......gets the bird pumping vertical which is much better than nothing at all if you can't get out with it.;)

[Gav.Hawks]

hi,if you want to keep the bird 100%fit.it wants to be out 6-7days a week.:D

[Burn]

wel a used to jump my female gos adepending on how much food a was feeding her over 120 jumps at 15ft on a heavy rope aswel. Do a do the same with a falcon as a gos for jumping, they isnt anything diferent ?

[Heike]

I will watch this with interest,

I also have the same problem - how do you keep a game hawk fit ?
generally crow hawks are in the air flying for a lot longer than a game hawk,

my saker is now made to game with 5 pheasants and a redleg under her belt,

I usually manage to fly her Sat + Sun and have thought of jumps through the week to help keep her fitness up,

I cannot really fly her to the lure for fitness without the fear of lowering her pitch ?

up till now have always managed to find game - put her up - let her get height and in position then flush the game - probably in the region of 30 times this season,

So you experienced game hawkers out there,
how do you fly your bird - only when you can produce game for them - or is there another way to excercise them in flight without producing game everytime you want to fly them ?
Remember we are in Britain ! not the USA

Cheers Heike

[MattSpar]

If you're in the position of wondering how to keep a big falcon fit when you can't fly her you should, with respect, ask yourself if you have the time to fly one properly at all. More than any others, large falcons need to be flown daily if they are to perform at all well. High jumping during the week and flying at weekends may be possible with a gos or a harris but if you try this with any of the large falcons you'll be very disappointed with the results.

It's much wiser to realise one's limitations, in this case time wise, and choose a more suitable bird for your situation.

[Burn]

lke u say matt thats sumit av gta tak in2 consideration thats way a opened this thread up 2 get other views and opinions off expericened falcons

[Heike]

If you're in the position of wondering how to keep a big falcon fit when you can't fly her you should, with respect, ask yourself if you have the time to fly one properly at all. More than any others, large falcons need to be flown daily if they are to perform at all well. High jumping during the week and flying at weekends may be possible with a gos or a harris but if you try this with any of the large falcons you'll be very disappointed with the results.

It's much wiser to realise one's limitations, in this case time wise, and choose a more suitable bird for your situation.

Mattspar, was this reply to my post ?
If it was did you read my post properly ?

I was wondering how to excercise a gamehawk bird whithout having to find game everyday - do I fly her to the lure - will this not lower her pitch,

A crowhawk is pretty easy to fly at quarry everyday, drive along any country road,
where as game, suitable to fly a gamehawk at every day can take an awfull lot longer to set up the flight, like 1/2 a day,

to fly every day is not a problem for me generally, and she has been trained to the kite - everyday for 2 weeks, and had around 30 flight at game,
and you dont do that with a saker only flying at weekends,

So how do you excercise a game hawk by flying it ? - which was the 2nd part of my question, I only said I had thought of jumps !

[Tim Laycock]

If you're in the position of wondering how to keep a big falcon fit when you can't fly her you should, with respect, ask yourself if you have the time to fly one properly at all. More than any others, large falcons need to be flown daily if they are to perform at all well. High jumping during the week and flying at weekends may be possible with a gos or a harris but if you try this with any of the large falcons you'll be very disappointed with the results.

It's much wiser to realise one's limitations, in this case time wise, and choose a more suitable bird for your situation.

Truth :cool:

[MattSpar]

Mattspar, was this reply to my post ?



No it wasn't.

I didn't deem it necessary to read past the original post in order to answer it as the opinions of others on this subject would not alter my own.

[EddieT]

I will watch this with interest,

I also have the same problem - how do you keep a game hawk fit ?
generally crow hawks are in the air flying for a lot longer than a game hawk,

my saker is now made to game with 5 pheasants and a redleg under her belt,

I usually manage to fly her Sat + Sun and have thought of jumps through the week to help keep her fitness up,

I cannot really fly her to the lure for fitness without the fear of lowering her pitch ?

up till now have always managed to find game - put her up - let her get height and in position then flush the game - probably in the region of 30 times this season,

So you experienced game hawkers out there,
how do you fly your bird - only when you can produce game for them - or is there another way to excercise them in flight without producing game everytime you want to fly them ?
Remember we are in Britain ! not the USA

Cheers Heike

Heike,

It was a hard learnt lesson for me since trying to fly a waiting on game falcon that the only time i ever fly my falcon is when i am confident that i will be able to provide a GOOD flush for him. If this can't be achieved i now always go home without flying (which i did on 4 or 5 occasions last season). The damage to the hawk's 'waiting on pysche' of having an unproductive flight out weighs the benefit of any fitness gained from 'just letting it stretch its wings', or flying a marginal set up that is has a high probability that no quarry will be flushed. On days when i don't find a slip and on days when i cant get down to the farm i do high jumps. Done properly these can exercise a fit falcon to the point that it is breathing hard and looking tired and it is certainly better than the falcon doing nothing. I do not believe however that a falcon can be kept to a workable level of fitness by high jumping 5 days a week and only flying at weekends.

My experience is admitidly limitted to only a single game falcon and a couple of crow falcons but I think that a game falcon needs to be 'fit' where as a crow falcon needs to be 'silly fit', if you know what i mean. I don't think that it is realistic to expect a falcon to fly crows well unless it has the fitness associated with being flown hard very regularly and in the fitness sense a crow falcon is more demanding to fly than a game falcon (although any bird will benefit from a high daily frequency of flying). A game falcon needs to be able to mount to its pitch without stretching itself which demands fitness but this is not in the same league of fitness or type of fitness as a crow falcon expected to fly out of its skin for long flights.

Also, the occasional lure session is not a necessarily a bad thing for crow falcon that is killing regularly as its always good for them to be reminded what the lure is all about, although done too often to a bird that is not fully confident in its crow catching ability it can lead to the bird looking inward for the lure and not outward for quarry. For a game falcon doing passes to the lure can ruin its pitch. High jumping is a poorer substitute on the fitness stakes, but it will not affect the falcons pitch as it doesn't interfere with the 'hood off = i must climb so that i have height advantage for the flush' thought process/routine.

[Heike]

Heike,

It was a hard learnt lesson for me since trying to fly a waiting on game falcon that the only time i ever fly my falcon is when i am confident that i will be able to provide a GOOD flush for him. If this can't be achieved i now always go home without flying (which i did on 4 or 5 occasions last season). The damage to the hawk's 'waiting on pysche' of having an unproductive flight out weighs the benefit of any fitness gained from 'just letting it stretch its wings', or flying a marginal set up that is has a high probability that no quarry will be flushed. On days when i don't find a slip and on days when i cant get down to the farm i do high jumps. Done properly these can exercise a fit falcon to the point that it is breathing hard and looking tired and it is certainly better than the falcon doing nothing. I do not believe however that a falcon can be kept to a workable level of fitness by high jumping 5 days a week and only flying at weekends.

My experience is admitidly limitted to only a single game falcon and a couple of crow falcons but I think that a game falcon needs to be 'fit' where as a crow falcon needs to be 'silly fit', if you know what i mean. I don't think that it is realistic to expect a falcon to fly crows well unless it has the fitness associated with being flown hard very regularly and in the fitness sense a crow falcon is more demanding to fly than a game falcon (although any bird will benefit from a high daily frequency of flying). A game falcon needs to be able to mount to its pitch without stretching itself which demands fitness but this is not in the same league of fitness or type of fitness as a crow falcon expected to fly out of its skin for long flights.

Also, the occasional lure session is not a necessarily a bad thing for crow falcon that is killing regularly as its always good for them to be reminded what the lure is all about, although done too often to a bird that is not fully confident in its crow catching ability it can lead to the bird looking inward for the lure and not outward for quarry. For a game falcon doing passes to the lure can ruin its pitch. High jumping is a poorer substitute on the fitness stakes, but it will not affect the falcons pitch as it doesn't interfere with the 'hood off = i must climb so that i have height advantage for the flush' thought process/routine.

Thanks Eddie T, At least you understand what I am talking about, and your reply is a bit more constructive than the others so far,

So all in all, there is no way other than jumps or flying at potential game to keep a game hawk fit, whether its a big falcon or a small falcon, as flying to anything other than the pitch, wait on and stoop to flushed game will ruin all the work done to achieve a game hawk, which was what I thought.

Its not about me not having time to fly every day, I just dont have 1/2 a day every day to set up a flight, and those who fly game hawks will know the effort it takes to make one,

I wonder how many of us have game hawks and how many have crow or lure birds, bet the biggest percentage is crow and lure, (somebody do a poll, I dont know how)

Regards Heike

[Varvel1]

Mattspar, was this reply to my post ?
If it was did you read my post properly ?

I was wondering how to excercise a gamehawk bird whithout having to find game everyday - do I fly her to the lure - will this not lower her pitch,

A crowhawk is pretty easy to fly at quarry everyday, drive along any country road,
where as game, suitable to fly a gamehawk at every day can take an awfull lot longer to set up the flight, like 1/2 a day,

to fly every day is not a problem for me generally, and she has been trained to the kite - everyday for 2 weeks, and had around 30 flight at game,
and you dont do that with a saker only flying at weekends,

So how do you excercise a game hawk by flying it ? - which was the 2nd part of my question, I only said I had thought of jumps !

If you are flying a gamehawk as often as you are or can then that is all you need to do............. gamehawks use the stoop to have the upperhand so use speed and impact on the descent to kill so don't have to be as fit as a pursuit bird. As long as the bird can mount to the correct pitch and wait on then that is all you need it to be able to do.
If someone can't get out and serve their bird game on a regular basis then they don't have time to have a gamehawk.

[Burn]

ok for a game hawk yea u need to have the bird at a good pitch all the time and preduce game all the time to give you the best bird off ur abilaty and land. however for a crow hawk flying off the fist is surely a different ball game in my eyes it doesnt need to stoop from hundreds of foot it needs to be quick off the mark to get ontop of its crow. So getting back to me point could you jump a crow hawk for fittness?

[Varvel1]

ok for a game hawk yea u need to have the bird at a good pitch all the time and preduce game all the time to give you the best bird off ur abilaty and land. however for a crow hawk flying off the fist is surely a different ball game in my eyes it doesnt need to stoop from hundreds of foot it needs to be quick off the mark to get ontop of its crow. So getting back to me point could you jump a crow hawk for fittness?

simply.yes you can :wink:

[Burn]

So will this help the falcon or will it have no effect on the birds hunting

[Heike]

So getting back to me point could you jump a crow hawk for fittness?[/QUOTE]

Sorry Burn, for nicking your thread,

[Burn]

ne both m8 are ypu in the same boat as me for fitnes for your bird

[Varvel1]

So will this help the falcon or will it have no effect on the birds hunting

It will help the bird muscle up definetly............. so that should be a positive on the hunting side.:wink:

[MattSpar]

A crowhawk is pretty easy to fly at quarry everyday, drive along any country road,


I'm sorry but with all due respect, that statement, apart from demeaning crow and rook hawkers, is absolute nonsense, and misleading nonsense to boot.

[Heike]

I'm sorry but with all due respect, that statement, apart from demeaning crow and rook hawkers, is absolute nonsense, and misleading nonsense to boot.

I was not demeaning any crow, rook or gull hawker,

I also crow hawk with friends,

merely stating an obvious fact that it is much easier to find slips for crows than it is for a gamehawk - I know I do it,

You seem to have taken a liking for having a go at me on this thread -no surprise that somebody has to nit pick and not put anything positive into the discussion, it happens all the time.

What exactly do you fly yourself Mattspar ?
I looked at you profile and it seems to be just a rhyme or something.

[StoopDoggyDogg]

I dont like jumping falcons to the fist, i have found it can bring out undesirable imprinted behaviour in a bird, especially a young one.

Big NO NO from me !!

I also dont really think it gets them fit at all.


Steve

[Burn]

how have you found it can bring out undesirable imprinted behaviour in a bird, especially a young one. also a disagree with you on it doesnt reali get the bird fit after jumping the goshawks for a season at a hieght of 15 ft and heavy ropes aswel my bird was alot fitter than a bird that hadnt been jumped at all.

[CanadaManada]

I have seen tons of pictures with Pakistani falconers jumping up falcons.
If you don't want to spend all night jumping up a bird, why not tie a finger width rope to the swivel so it really has to pull hard to reach the fist?
Heike, what kind of pitch are you getting out of your Saker?

Justin

[Burn]

thats wot a do a put on big heavy ropes increasing in size as the bird gets fitter

[Heike]

Heike, what kind of pitch are you getting out of your Saker?

Justin[/QUOTE]

Hi Justin, she is going up to 500 ft regularly now.

Cheers Keith

[Sandy Rollo]

Jumping can be used to MAINTAIN an already fit game hawk the only ways to really get a gamehawk fit is either by flying it at game almost daily or by flying to a kite almost daily. I say almost daily as i dont believe very many top class game hawks can attain very high pitshes without some periods of rest.In the real world here in the uk looking back over the season just finished i would have found it impossible to fly my falcons daily as the weather takes its toll ,we had a period of 8 days here where i couldnt fly because of high winds and only by jumping i was able to keep them fit .I have never had any problems with jumping and imprinting think maybe should look at how the hawk was reared rather than the jumping.As for flying a falcon only at weekends? it can be done i have seen a peregine falcon kill grouse from 1200 feet after climbing with nice wingbeats on the last day off the season having only been jumped early mornings and flown mostly at weekends since the end of october.

[CanadaManada]

Heike, what kind of pitch are you getting out of your Saker?

Justin

Hi Justin, she is going up to 500 ft regularly now.

Cheers Keith[/QUOTE]

Kieth m8,

I wouldn't let anyone **** in your cereal if you have a Saker taking game from 500ft. That's an accomplishment, itself. Sounds to me like you know what you're doing alot more than alot on here. The Pakistani falconers in those pics I mentioned were doing jumpups with Sakers, BTW.
So as not to hijack this thread, can you send me a PM telling me how you got your Saker to go up?

Cheers,

Justin

[Varvel1]

I dont like jumping falcons to the fist, i have found it can bring out undesirable imprinted behaviour in a bird, especially a young one.

Big NO NO from me !!

I also dont really think it gets them fit at all.
Steve

Have to disagree with you especially on the fitness bit....of course it will get them fit......any bird that has to pump vertically will get fitter.

As for undesirable traits............. never had any problems ......

What problems have you encountered?

[JFSeaman]

I dont like jumping falcons to the fist, i have found it can bring out undesirable imprinted behaviour in a bird, especially a young one.

Big NO NO from me !!

I also dont really think it gets them fit at all.


Steve

I disagree strongly.

I jumped my tiercel on rainy days from 12 weeks onward. Never anything bad associated with it. When he was put near a falcon in July, the both started chupping at each other immediately.

What 'undesirable imprinted behaviour' do you mean?

[MattSpar]

.... stating an obvious fact that it is much easier to find slips for crows than it is for a gamehawk - I know I do it,



What exactly do you fly yourself Mattspar ?
.


Easier to find rooks and crows, but just as difficult to find slips with the potential to give a good, sporting flight, not just a kill. Anyone, as you state, can drive along a country road and slip at corvids as they come across them, but that's not rook hawking. Not by a long shot.

Currently, I concentrate on lark hawking with merlins and rook hawking, to as high a standard as I can manage.

[Heike]

Easier to find rooks and crows, but just as difficult to find slips with the potential to give a good, sporting flight, not just a kill. Anyone, as you state, can drive along a country road and slip at corvids as they come across them, but that's not rook hawking. Not by a long shot.

Currently, I concentrate on lark hawking with merlins and rook hawking, to as high a standard as I can manage.

With your zimmer, ye ye

Lets agree to disagree and stop answering each other, further bringing down this forum,

My last word to you,

Heike

[StoopDoggyDogg]

They start mantling on the fist.



Have to disagree with you especially on the fitness bit....of course it will get them fit......any bird that has to pump vertically will get fitter.

As for undesirable traits............. never had any problems ......

What problems have you encountered?

[StoopDoggyDogg]

A young falcon can switch its parental instincts from its mother to the falconer quite easily when taken up for training and become a mantling screamer. Jumping to the fist repeatedly makes this far more likely to happen.

Goshawks are not falcons, they have different flight styles and the comparison is not relevant.

steve





how have you found it can bring out undesirable imprinted behaviour in a bird, especially a young one. also a disagree with you on it doesnt reali get the bird fit after jumping the goshawks for a season at a hieght of 15 ft and heavy ropes aswel my bird was alot fitter than a bird that hadnt been jumped at all.

[JFSeaman]

Hmmm...

Having done jumps with one redtail, one tiercel peregine, 2 harris hawks and a AK. I don't consider my self that experienced.

My young tiercel didn't mantle or scream. None of the other birds mantled or screamed. All the birds general behavior improved.

IMHO: Blanket statements like 'jumping a falcon causes imprint behaviors' need more supporting data.

Since you feel the way you do about jumps, it will probably do you good not to jump your falcons.

I will continue to jump my birds as a general part of training and when exercise is needed and I can't get them on a hunt (I don't work and can hunt 7 days a week weather and world conditions permitting).

Do I think jumps are a good substitute for hunting, fec no! But I try not to reward a hunting bird for doing nothing. Jumps seems to provide some stimulation of metabolism/appetite and some improvement in field recall response. So jumps away when it's not a hunting day.

A young falcon can switch its parental instincts from its mother to the falconer quite easily when taken up for training and become a mantling screamer. Jumping to the fist repeatedly makes this far more likely to happen.

Goshawks are not falcons, they have different flight styles and the comparison is not relevant.

steve