bagged game !!!

[Kevin Massey]

chicM.........i like the ref to mealworms and robins !!! a corker that !!!

wait till im arguing with some on on my wifes works bus on the way home from next xmas party........

cheers

kev

[ChicM]

Hah ! You beat me to the thread Kev.

I reckon this has been done to death but come on all you moral guardians of the noble art - let's be 'avin' you...

Legality aside: why is it right or wrong to use bagged game?

[Kevin Massey]

well for me personly...aint my thing, to be totaly honiest its the chase and the quality of flight that apeals to me....if the hawk catches it...well we are both happy

kev

[Gaz]

its the chase and the quality of flight
:mrgreen: :supz: :mrgreen:

[ChicM]

Just so I can put down a marker - I'm with you also Kev as far as baggies and hawking is concerned.

But I do ask myself what is the difference between a baggie and, say, a fresh live sardine that I'd pitch to a big game fish that we'd teased to the boat. I can't answer that honestly without distorting what is going on: I am using one wild animal as a bait for another to illicit a predatory reaction for, yes, my own enjoyment and pleasure. Ok – you could argue that in hawking it is to educate the hawk…but then we all get pleasure when our bird nails the quarry irrespective of how it did it. So live-bait still sounds suspiciously like a baggie to me in those terms.

And that's what bothers me about pandering to the antis. Words and terminology have power. Once they get us to accept one principle, that principle is instantly transferable to other field sports and becomes malleable within our own.

For example, the words used in the Scottish Parliament to justify the ban on foxhunting were "It is a sport which results in the pain and suffering in a wild animal".

Tell me guys – successfully defend falconry (or fishing) against that bottom line statement?

Words and definitions have power. I don't like bagged game but I worry that by being all high and mighty about it we'll play into the hands of the very people we seek to appease.

Personally I think we treat the antis with too much respect. I think our big mistake is to try to reason with them as though they are rational, intelligent human beings. They’re not – they’re myopic, single-issue-driven eejits who should be made to account for their own hypocrisies in a complex world. I take huge pleasure in confronting each and every one of them at each and every opportunity. It might even get me a smack one day but hey – if something is worth fighting for it means something.

I'll put the soap box away now... :D

[Shaun Byrne]

In other words Chick F**K em before they F**K you!!

[Shaun Byrne]

Now how far do we go with this baggy thing?? If it is described as someone who uses a wild animal or bird to illicit the hunting instinct in another, does this mean that all gamekeepers are guilty of using baggies.

They rear gamebirds all year with the sole purpose of trigering the hunting instincts of a line of hunters! The more birds that get shot, the more sucessful the keeper is seen to be.

[Hawkmaster]

In South Africa I used baggies to get a game hawk mounting really high. IT WORKS.

How else can it be done? Its parents use the same method to teach it that and then they may even use injured birds. I used to use highly trained extra fit pigeon as a tool to attain height from the falcon through mistakes in its pitch. The pigeon almost, 99.99% of the time lived because I engineered it that way.

What I HATE is these people that mouth off about don't do this and don't do that BUT they do it anyway like it is a big secret!

[ChicM]

Echo that HM. It's not the act, it 's the hypocrisy that cracks me up. Those who don't do it through choice - all power to them. Those who do it in secret can live with it I guess. Those who rant in their denials usually have something (else) to hide and the louder they doth protest, perhaps the more they have to hide. :D

Nobody's perfect after all...

[ColdZero]

...

[Wightwings]

blummin heck how many times an how mant threads is this subject going to be debated on.

lets just all beg to differ and leave the subject debated out. :D

[Hawkmaster]

By comments like, it being a short cut, I get preconceived ideas of peoples experience and don't think they have got to that level yet.

Certain things can not be attained without it and that is not a challenge it is a fact!

[LanczSpringer]

It all comes down to what people think bagged game is!

I cant really see a problem in digging a rabbit out of its burrow after being cornered by the ferret(you need to dig to get the ferret!). Then giving the rabbit a chance to get away by releasing it there and then!

Its as slightly different story if the rabbit was removed and kept for a few days or released in an unfamiliar area!

But its either neck the thing as its been dug out or let it go and the bird have a chase with a high chance it will live to see another day!

[ColdZero]

...

[Wightwings]

your right mate but its elligal in the uk..................................... :?

[Hawkmaster]

Not angry mate, just chatting. What may be wrong with baggies, and I am sure you will all agree? Is to break say the rabbits legs and then expect it to get away?

This causes suffering and is wrong. Bagged game is there to teach the bird something and this is what it is used for in other countries.

[Wightwings]

respect others and let he who is pure cast the first stone.............AMEN.

[Chris S]

well said HM if given every chance to out run or fly the bird then for some birds would be a big help,but as was said before i hate people who act pure yet in secret are some of the worst for it

yes and theres plenty folk like that on this site ! and there is also plenty armchair falconers to ! eny falconer worth his weight in salt will have uesd bagies and if they tell you difrent they are full of the brown stuff ! but i must say i have never needed to use bagies with hawks ! now falcons are a difrent kettle of fish bagies are almost always used and if enyone trys to say difrent then they are telling lies or have been extreamly lucky to have a falcon that swicht itself on !!!! the problem with sites like these are there is to much sneaking about and folk trying to make falconry look like its somthing its not ! falconry is a blood sport like eny other and to be honest i dont give a foook if eny of you dont like this fact ! if you dont like go away !! thats the advise all true falconers should be giving out and not trying to hide the facts and glamorise falconry !!!! its much and much the same as fox hunting lol i have sat and listend to so much ***** about how its crule and this rubbish is the words of some falconers ive met on this site lol if a falconer can turn round and say fox hunting is cruel then they arnt a falconer if i young buck new to falconry can say fox hunting is cruel then he or she is getting into the wrong sport and as for folk who keep bop and dont hunt them lol they are a joke and i see that as cruel !!!!! to those who dont like my words up yours your no better than the tree hugging ejits !!!! i somtimes wonder if this site is set up by anties ....................................

[Hawkmaster]

William re-edit your post so it complies with the Terms of Agreement, you do not have to purposefully bring falconry into disrespect, slag off member on this forum, even without naming names or insinuate I am an Anti.

[ColdZero]

...

eny sport that involves the killing of animals is BLOOD SPORT no matter how you see it its fact ! hawk master what do you mean by bring falconry into disrespect, ? no hawkmaster i am not insinuating you are a antie but i will stress i have had talks with a certan mod on msn and am convinced the said person has got a lot of isues about all feild sports that involve the killing of animals now that worys me and see the need for this to be addresst ! this is not a peronal attack but as you know most sites involving feild sports are moniterd by anties which in turn means its not very safe to talk about certan aspects in our sport that is somtimes esentual in the craft of our sport ! so insted we tell lies about the right way to do things for fear of the anties and in turn this can be confusing for a begginer as for they arnt getting the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth ! and as for the antie mod thats jmo ! ( yes bagies are important and needed) even though it is against the law in this country !!!!! its also ilegal to take a pis in the street but if theres eny one on here that hasnt done it then ile give you a fiver ! wimen not included lol !!!! and if ive isulted eny members on here this is jmo and everyone is alowd one ......................

[Gaz]

are moniterd by anties which in turn means its not very safe to talk about certan aspects in our sport that is somtimes esentual in the craft of our sport ! so
So why do it then... :?:

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Gaz wrote....
So why do it then...

Because he's a penishead Gaz, thats why.

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=44230#44230

Apologies in advance for everyone else.

LLL.

[Jiff]

i'm flying my first ever bird of prey,i'm personaly against baggies,i personaly havnt found them either important or needed,my bird entered eventualy and ended her tally at 19 1/2 rabbits (the half being a 4 or 5 week old youngster.) i dont see that killing vermin,twisted evil bunnies hell bent on putting the farmer out of business as a blood sport more of a service to the rural community.

Gaz wrote....
So why do it then...

Because he's a penishead Gaz, thats why.

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=44230#44230

Apologies in advance for everyone else.

LLL. if enyone is a penishead then its you and if you wish to call me this then its up to you i would just prefer you did it in pm m8 as for ime embarest for you showing yourself up for the kinda person you realy are ! and on a open forum for all to see lol i remember the last time you told me you was going to beat me over the head with a lead pipe lol i took it as a joke due to your posting name but if i wanted to take it to the highest level beleive me you would be very sory for that thret ! i can see the clik on the forum forming again well done mods ............

i'm flying my first ever bird of prey,i'm personaly against baggies,i personaly havnt found them either important or needed,my bird entered eventualy and ended her tally at 19 1/2 rabbits (the half being a 4 or 5 week old youngster.) i dont see that killing vermin,twisted evil bunnies hell bent on putting the farmer out of business as a blood sport more of a service to the rural community. short wings genraly dont need bagies jiff but if you ever stick with falconry and get to the point when you want to try out a exspensive falcon and want to hunt with it then i will be suprised if you can enter it without a baggie ! and as ive said the killing of eny animals for sport is blood sport even though you dont like it its a fact sorry but it wasnt me that gave it the name .......................

[OhMyGod]

why would somone want to dig up abunny for their hawk.? Is this not second phasing ? I think if your bunny goes down then you missed it, bad luck, I dont think its sporting to dig em up, or use ferrets to get em out if you've flown it and its gone in you missed yeah? move on.

Unless of course you need to get it entered then fair enough.

How can you people say this it right when the bunnys won, and slag of people for wanting to teach their falcons to wait on longer by releasing white pidgeons that it will NOT catch. And will return to your loft next door to your aviery ready for another day.

I know not all harris hawkers do this but what is the fasination with getting as many hawks as possible and ferreting the warren with your birds sat in trees or poles waiting, self hunting. this is the most boring pointless exersise of falconry I can think of. It is however a way of pest control (but very ineffective) or a way to get food for your pot or birds or dogs etc. but I seen people do this shi* then throw away the rabbits. this is not falconry this is bullshi* anyone can do that. even a monkey.why do you enjoy this one sided unfair sport. This I feel is what will get falconry banned for people who want to do real falconry and fly harrises from a hood at bunnies in the open where if the bunny makes cover your bird does not get fed. and instead sits on the fist hooded until you find a bunny not too close but not too far so you get a better flight. This way your bird will try much harder in flight as well instead of just waiting for easy slips all the time. I have been out and seen this loads. What is wrong with you people?

get a fu*king grip

If you think you are doing the countryside a service by doing this you are very nieve. You aren't making the slightest bit of difference what so ever, don't be so stupid. the rabbits breed as to the amount of foood available. You can clean out a whole warren if you like next month it will be full again. I know. the same if you gas the lot next month yep full to the brim of nice fresh bunnys banging away

I realise most people on this site have helped others in the past and I do not want to deride people unfairly however I do agree with willam s and I think "falconry" or what ever people think they are doing is basically ****ed in this country.

WILLAM S, why don't you move to the states where you will get a much healthier respect for falconry, not this non-sense we have to put up with hear. ridiculous. And i know some people voice thier oppinions on this forum who do not even have birds!!!!!!!

totally ****in unbelievable

[Gaz]

Surely Falconry by its definition is a bloodsport....i think that its very naive to think otherwise ....why would somone want to dig up abunny for their hawk.? Is this not second phasing ? I think if your bunny goes down then you missed it, bad luck, I dont think its sporting to dig em up, or use ferrets to get em out if you've flown it and its gone in you missed yeah? move on.

Unless of course you need to get it entered then fair enough.
Got to say i agree with this...but i think its wills way i attacking people thats the problem,theres other ways to get a point across...and some of his make good reading and could spark some good debates..im not the most tactful person on here..but you can at least try to be,and think about it...probaly get a earful meself now but ..CEST LA VIE :!:
"ALL I AM SAYING,IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE" :mrgreen:

[Bash]

I agree with most of your points OhMyGod.

[ColdZero]

...

[OhMyGod]

a lure is a representation of wild quarry, you can pull it on the groung with your bird chasing it to represent ground game(its better being pulled by a vehicle or bike so it goes fast and bounces around a bit so the hawk will have to try a few times to get it), or you swing it round to get the bird interested and when its on its way you pass the lure out to the bird and pull it along at the same speed as the bird so it can reach out and grab it (or just miss it ) to represent flying game. the trouble with a ground lure it that it is no good in getting your bird fit, a swung lure can be used for any buteo falco accipiter

[LanczSpringer]

OK I feel like I have started something here!

In my post above all I was saying is that if the rabbit wont come out of the hole and the ferret is still down there, you need to dig to get to the ferret, where you will 99% also find the rabbit!

All I was saying, and I am not condoning it, but the rabbit is then necked and put in the bag for the bird later in the week.

I am not saying just dig em out or go chasing them from one hole to another until you get it!!!!

I must also state that I don't fly any birds at the moment but am hoping too!

I must say that i don't agree with the above that the warren will be full the next month after gassing etc!! People have to get an understanding of biodiversity and the food chain.

Rabbits will only live, breed and prosper in a land were food is easy to come by and the population is not too condensed!

People shouldn't go killing everything in sight this is what leads to a decline in sport and only causes harm! selective culling is the only way forwards!

I am sorry if any of my amateurish comments has caused offense.

Lanczspringer

[Varmint]

No offense to anyone mate and all very valid points :wink:

[Kevin Massey]

if you dig down to retrieve your ferret and when you get there you find a rabbit backed up or even held by the ferret....there is no way this is a blimmin baggie !!!

i would have no reservation on letting it off free for my hawks to chase, after all its still flushed (well kindoff ish ).

if the ferret has had a right go at the rabbit on the other hand i would dispatch it there and then, causing it no un-nessesary suffering.

kev

[LanczSpringer]

Thanks for that, I seem to have got my point across now!

cheers

[Goran]

We cannot use ferrets.Only dogs and this is fair.There places where rabbits are safe and there is no way to clean them all because our season is over at the end of February.Conservation and managing natural resources.In the begining of any training bagged game is the same as what young bird parents will do.

[OhMyGod]

I'd like to see you eradicate rabbits with hawks and ferrets. how do you do that again? and why do you stick ferrets down holes again? surely you'd have more fun stickin em up your arrrse? I don't know. but whatever you're into i guess

[Jack Merlin]

I hammer the rabbits pretty hard on my farm because they burrow into the sides of the ditches and cause a lot of damage. This is not sport, it is vermin control. I was lamping last night before the moon came up and saw several but only managed to get one with the .22 when it stopped to look over its shoulder at 60 yards. They know all about my evil intentions!<g>

Yes, there are times when a gos and a ferret would be more efficient than a gun or a rifle for vermin control. Most of these rabbits could have been taken by flying a gos in the spotlight, and that is something I fully intend doing.

Other times I've ferreted rabbits and caught them with the gos in places where it would have been difficult or impossible to shoot. A goshawk has only to catch a glimpse of a ferreted rabbit to be after it, then it can go round corners, up and down, which is something neither a bullet nor a shot can do.

BTW, if you moderated your language, you'd probably find you would get more respect from the group for your views. And, anyway, putting a ferret up your anus contravenes the cruelty laws, not to mention those against ******y and unnatural sexual practices.

Falconers should always strive to remain within the law!<g>

[LanczSpringer]

Well said Jack!
I don't see that we should have to discuss anything with people who cant get their point across without using vulgar and insulting language!

[Kevin Massey]

jack,

i would,nt waste my time on it !!!.. "omg" in my opinion hav,nt got a clue.

ever since he came on the forum....he's been a gimp from the word go !!

ingnore it and it will go away !!

kev
worse thing is there aint just him

[OhMyGod]

Have not got a clue eh?

I just been reading some of your threads and can honestly say that you have not got a clue mate. The things you say are not your opinion and are just phrases from books. I don't think anything you have ever said has helped anyone, you have no idea how to be constructive and when people ask for advice or help you NEVER answer anyone! why not? Is this because you can't think for yourself? you just wait for somone else to answer then agree or disagree with out giving your reason why. I do not do this as it is a wast of time and have had numerous messeges from people saying that I helped them achieve, and also get messeges from people asking for my help, which I give for free this is why I am on here. Not because I have no friends or life.

I always give my opinion when people are stuck! and take time from my busy day to try and give people a better understanding. You mate come on hear and pick fights with people and use this forum as your social life. I reckon you are friendless mate this is why you deride people to try and score brownie points with other forum members and make friends. I think this sort of behavior is sad and I much prefer the real world.

Having a go at me because I use language that offends you is easy and again is not constructive, does my language really honestly offend you? I hear it the whole time in day to day life. You must be constantly offended all day by everyone. ok so in england we dont really swear much, how would you get on if you lived in, or went on holiday to OZ? that would really depress you wouldn't it

[Kevin Massey]

all this from a person that thinks of asking advice from the internet before takeing a sick bird to the vet?

if you had any calibure what so ever i would take your comments to heart....but as its from you no probs.....

kev

[LanczSpringer]

Kev

Lets just shhh.... and leave him to fade away never to be seen again or at least for a long time.

[Kevin Massey]

who?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[OhMyGod]

bitch

[Jack Merlin]

Play nicely, children! And there was me thinking those two years teaching 12 year olds was wasted!<g>

I was out the other day when I noticed some duck an a small splash. I though that was pretty unusual, so I went across to investigate. The duck flushed and next thing, this wild peregrine appeared from nowhere and knocked down a duck. It planed down but did not land on the kill, just cruisd around a while, then flew off.

I carried on filling pheasant feeders, thenheaded back to find the duck, a teal, unable to fly but apparently healthy. I decided to release it on the other bigger pond but by the time I got there, it was dead. Went back and laid it out, breast up, where I had found it and went and sat in the Land Rover. Sure enough, ten minutes later, the peregrine reappeared, circled like what seemed an age, then planed down onto her kill. I left her to it. Nothing to do with baggies but I saw this falcon regularly.

Another day, the gos flew some partridges. I found him "at stand" on bare heather. I reckoned they must have put in close by so I called the dogs in and called the gos to my fist. Got a point right away and the partridge, a single, flushed at the same moment. Gos was after it in a flash. Caught a movement out the corner of my eye and turned to notice that a wild peregrine, probably the same one, had joined the chase. Both birds put the partridge into cover. I hadn't the heart to re-flush it!

That partridge was one of my ex-layers released on the "pen" system. After a couple of week's liberty, they fly as well as wild birds. Not sure if that qualifies them as baggies or not. Any opinions?

[ColdZero]

there seems to be a mixed opinion on what is a baggy. I don't think ferreting is a baggie, or what Jack merlin just described. Is there any definition of it? I think i got the wrong idea about it.

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Coldzero wrote.....Is there any definition of it? I think i got the wrong idea about it.

Definition, In English Law? I don't think so.
Got the wrong idea? Then you would be with most of the population there then.

As has been said before, the whole crux of it in the UK is based around the words 'cruelty' and 'suffering'.
Very hard to prove in a lot of cases.
I have yet to have anyone show me ANY PROOF that using bagged game in this country is illegal, or anywhere that says it is illegal.
Sure, the whole of the falconry world seems to believe that it is, but is it?

Jack has been bringing to the surface many different examples here, my interpretation is that by a lot of peoples definitions and feelings, some of these could be classed as 'baggies', and yet there aren't so many that feel as sure as to offer many answers/opinions etc.

It's not so clear cut is it?

Regards,
Lucky.

[Jack Merlin]

I suspect it would be for the courts to decide whether "unnecessary sufering" had been caused. And to get to court, all it needs is someone poking a video camera through the nearest hedge.

Seems to me, best not give them anything that could feature in a TV documentary!! :( Judging from the anti-hunting stuff they screen, quality doesn't really matter much, and the pay's the same.

Take care!

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Jack wrote...I suspect it would be for the courts to decide whether "unnecessary sufering" had been caused. And to get to court, all it needs is someone poking a video camera through the nearest hedge.

Seems to me, best not give them anything that could feature in a TV documentary!! Judging from the anti-hunting stuff they screen, quality doesn't really matter much, and the pay's the same.
Nicely put Jack.
Anyone else offer some wiser words than that?
Thats about as accurate as it gets.

Regards,
LLL.

[Jack Merlin]

A couple more thoughts.

I was so impressed with Bert's book (1619), that I have re-written it so most should now be able to read it. (See below for shameless plug). One thing that comes across is that a hawk which gets used to easy flights, isn't going to bother with the hard ones. Goshawks on game were entered to partridges because pheasants don't give such long flights. Any hawk that would regularly kill partridges was reckoned to be able to take pheasants without difficulty.

It does not make sense to give a hawk easy flights once it is entered. So baggies, apart from the ethical side of things, are counter-productive.

I watched one "falconer" pulling ex-layer partridges out of a crate and toss them for a male gos. It was a good gos too. It caught the first two or three in the air (which wasn't difficult). Then the hawk started holding back and following the bird so it could catch the partridge as it put into cover. One very nice hawk spoilt.

My male gos was taking on flights of over half a mile last season and it was damned exciting. But then he has never seen a baggie and never gets fed up on an easy flight.

[Bod]

A slight variation on the subject of Baggies which might sort out the definition of 'cruelty' or 'unnecessary' suffering has to do with Larsen Traps.
From what I can gather from my gamekeeper buddies a live Magpie is placed inside the trap which in turn attracts another. The practice becomes 'cruel' when the first Magpie is used continually thereby causing it unnecessary suffering so the second Magpie becomes the bait for the third and so on.
Would releasing a bird with a chance of it being caught by a hawk be considered cruel. In the wild all manner of birds and animals will bring a prey item to their young with a view to the youngster killing it or chasing it.
Slight variation on the original theme, but the Larsen trap approach is accepted in law.

[Shaun Byrne]

Good point Bod but the calling bird in a larson trap, by law, must be looked after with the care and attention of any captive bird. It must have food, water and be checked on throughout the day. You even have to provide it with shelter from rain or excessive sun. This is a far cry from tethering or holding back a bird or animal as bait for a BOP.

[Kevin Massey]

well i,ve looked and looked and cant find anything on the web reguarding the LAW on this matter

kev

[Shaun Byrne]

You might find some bits on the BASC site, in their guidelines.

[ColdZero]

...

[Shaun Byrne]

Just got this off the Game Conservancy Site.

Larsen traps
Gamekeepers have always killed magpies and crows because they prey on gamebird eggs. Until the mid 1980s the standard method was to poison them. This was not only dangerous and illegal, but it also killed other wildlife. In 1988 The Game Conservancy Trust began a series of experiments with a Danish designed cage trap known as a Larsen trap after its inventor. The key to the success of this trap is the use of a decoy magpie to entice other magpies into a catching compartment. In spring, breeding magpies tend to be territorial and they are quickly attracted to the decoy in the trap. We promoted these traps for magpie and crow control because they were highly effective and non-target birds could be released unharmed. Since it was unclear whether they were legal under the Wildlife & Countryside Act (1981), the then Nature Conservancy Council (now English Nature) issued an annual licence for their use for the “purposes of conserving wild birds”. The development and the widespread adoption of Larsen Traps was supported by the RSPB from the outset. That support has continued and we work with them to prosecute the tiny minority who are tempted to use Larsen traps illegally to catch protected birds of prey like sparrow hawks.

The activities of the housewife from Bearsden who operates a Larsen trap in her garden would seem to be perfectly legal provided she is doing it for the right reason (i.e. conserving wild birds) and adheres to the terms of the licence which includes the welfare of the decoy magpie.

[Shaun Byrne]

Thames Valley Police:

Certain birds, namely magpies, crows, jays, jackdaws, and rooks are allowed to be controlled by means of a larsen trap, which is a large cage divided into three compartments, one containing a magpie as a decoy. The operator of the trap must meet certain conditions, for instance food, water and shelter should be provided for the decoy bird.

[Shaun Byrne]

And straight from the horses mouth:

(a) Restrict use of decoys to: Crow, Jackdaw, Jay, Magpie, Rook
(b) Revised inspection conditions for cage traps to include the physical inspection of each trap every day at intervals of no
more than 24 hours when in use, except where not possible because of severe weather conditions. In such cases every effort
must be made to inspect cage trap as soon as possible;
(c) Addition of note to state that ‘as a matter of good practice, cage traps should not be used during severe weather conditions, or
when such conditions are reasonably anticipated’;
(d) Improved welfare conditions requiring provision of appropriate shelter, perch, food, and water for decoy birds, if used, and
appropriate shelter and water for captured birds;
(e) At each inspection any live or dead bird or other animal caught in the trap should be removed from it;
(f) Non-target species must be released as soon as possible after discovery;
(g) Target species must be killed in a quick and humane manner as soon as reasonably practicable after discovery unless to be
used as decoy bird;.
(h) Traps not in use must be rendered incapable of holding or catching birds or other animals. Also food, water, bait and any decoy
birds must be removed from them. Additional note that in order to render any cage trap incapable of holding or catching birds or
other animals it would be necessary to secure the door in an open position or remove the door completely:

[HawkNorth]

a wild rabbit wont suffer as much as the bagged one. your second statment about the falcon. flying a made falcon will teach an unentered one. may make the difference

[The Late Lord Lucan]

H4wka wrote....
You might find some bits on the BASC site, in their guidelines
Guidelines maybe, but where's the Law?

This is a far cry from tethering or holding back a bird or animal as bait for a BOP.
Did I miss something? I don't recall a reference to restraining the 'baggie'.

Hawknorth wrote a wild rabbit wont suffer as much as the bagged one.
Can you elaborate any further there Hawknorth? I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion.

Regards,
Lucky.

[Varmint]

A lot of wise posting here and many valid points esp about Partridge.

As most of you know, most partridge are released thru a call bird pen system, where a Covey or family group are kept in a pen and periodically a bird or two released, the principle being that the released birds hang around the family group who are still in the pen.

If i release a bird from my pen and then put my peregrine up and flush said bird? is it a baggie? how long does it have to have been out of the pen until it is classed as Bagged Game?

A big point Jack made is that the falconer should have the experience to realise the value or rather hinderance of bagged game in his birds phscology, I feel most of our friends across the pond have got the balance right and also managed the social exceptance side of things well on this subject.

A big fashion here at the mo in the Scottish Shooting world is taking crates of Partridge up onto high moorland, realeasing them and then pushing the poor ******s down big valleys to be shot by standing guns (very Sporting?), why is this activity not stopped? where essentially the same thing we describe in falconry as bagged game and is?

Twin Morality, and the "social" evolution of our species eh? Homo "bloody" Sapien!

Bring back Victorian morals and Rickets i say!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

I wonder what DEFRA's attitude will be to live catch hawk traps if a regular wild take is ever allowed again?

The disturbance wild spars cause to my quail is horrendous. They fly up and down the pen causing the birds to panic until they finally get under cover during a lull. That is not the best thing to encourage egg production, especially as a spar will usually come back day after day. I know the pigeon/poultry men just deal with the problem and keep quiet.

I cannot see any greater disturbance would be caused to bait birds in a live catch trap, especially if there was some arrangement to automatically release the bait bird when a hawk is trapped.

There can no longer be an arguement against a wild take of passage sparrowhawks, for example, especially if there is an agreement that they are released at the end of the hawking season as we always used to do with merlins. Nuisance goshawks also ought to be trapped up, trained and flown, then released in another (preferably non-shooting) area at the end of the season. That used to be usual in the Middle Ages and the hawks would usually nest nearby. Sorry, seem to be drifting off topic!

[HawkNorth]

coldzero wrote a wild rabbit will as suffer as much as a bagged one

a bagged rabbit would suffer more

[The Late Lord Lucan]

coldzero wrote a wild rabbit will as suffer as much as a bagged one

a bagged rabbit would suffer more

Hows that then?

Regards,
LLL.

[HawkNorth]

your having a laugh

[Shaun Byrne]

Lucky,

If your not teathering, restraining or otherwise restraining at least until you see fit to release an animal I would say it ceases to be a baggy??

The difference between bagged game and wild quarry is the fact that you have hindered the baggy in some way as in one of the previous methods.


Lucky, if you'de read a bit further you would have seen this, straight off the .GOV website so I would say thats law mate.

And straight from the horses mouth:

(a) Restrict use of decoys to: Crow, Jackdaw, Jay, Magpie, Rook
(b) Revised inspection conditions for cage traps to include the physical inspection of each trap every day at intervals of no
more than 24 hours when in use, except where not possible because of severe weather conditions. In such cases every effort
must be made to inspect cage trap as soon as possible;
(c) Addition of note to state that ‘as a matter of good practice, cage traps should not be used during severe weather conditions, or
when such conditions are reasonably anticipated’;
(d) Improved welfare conditions requiring provision of appropriate shelter, perch, food, and water for decoy birds, if used, and
appropriate shelter and water for captured birds;
(e) At each inspection any live or dead bird or other animal caught in the trap should be removed from it;
(f) Non-target species must be released as soon as possible after discovery;
(g) Target species must be killed in a quick and humane manner as soon as reasonably practicable after discovery unless to be
used as decoy bird;.
(h) Traps not in use must be rendered incapable of holding or catching birds or other animals. Also food, water, bait and any decoy
birds must be removed from them. Additional note that in order to render any cage trap incapable of holding or catching birds or
other animals it would be necessary to secure the door in an open position or remove the door completely:

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Hawknorth wrote..
your having a laugh

Er No, I'm not actually.
Perhaps the question was too hard for you?
I am asking for a sensible answer on how you have concluded that bagged game suffers more than non bagged game.

Lets say you put a ferret down a hole and flush a rabbit, your bird catches it.
Two minutes later, another rabbit comes out, but you catch hold of it in a purse net, you take it to the middle of the field well away from the warren and release it for another bird. It has further to run to cover, so the second, less experienced bird catches it.
Tell me how the second bunny suffered more?

Regards,
Lucky.

[The Late Lord Lucan]

H4wka wrote...
If your not teathering, restraining or otherwise restraining at least until you see fit to release an animal I would say it ceases to be a baggy??
Well this is where it is difficult, because there is no definition by law about what is or isn't a 'baggie', every ones views can only really be based on assumptions.


The difference between bagged game and wild quarry is the fact that you have hindered the baggy in some way as in one of the previous methods.
This can only be an assumption. Because there is no law that can be found in writing specifically pertaining to 'bagged game'. I couldn't find any reference to disabling a 'baggie', other than a quote by Hawkmaster that he disagrees with the practice. As do I, 100%.


Lucky, if you'de read a bit further you would have seen this, straight off the .GOV website so I would say thats law mate.
I did read a bit further and your right, this is law.......about the correct and lawful use of a Larson Trap, not bagged game. So I can't see that it has that much relevance at all.

Regards,
Lucky.

[Bones]

Hawknorth wrote..
your having a laugh

Er No, I'm not actually.
Perhaps the question was too hard for you?
I am asking for a sensible answer on how you have concluded that bagged game suffers more than non bagged game.

Lets say you put a ferret down a hole and flush a rabbit, your bird catches it.
Two minutes later, another rabbit comes out, but you catch hold of it in a purse net, you take it to the middle of the field well away from the warren and release it for another bird. It has further to run to cover, so the second, less experienced bird catches it.
Tell me how the second bunny suffered more?

Regards,
Lucky.
No game suffers anymore than it should as long it's dispatched as quickly and as humanely as poss after the hawk/falcon whatever has caught it
the second bunny suffered more cause it had too breath for a few seconds longer lmao

[HawkNorth]

i see your point the parent bird has the right idea

just as you were saying the delay caused a longer time in fear though was

minimal and sensible

[Jack Merlin]

I would suggest that the term comes from cock fighting where a "common person" (i.e. not a true sportsman) would buy a fighting cock and simply shake it out of the bag it came in at the pit, thus avoiding the handling of a bird which could peck and spur him if badly handled! Such a person would be regarded with complete contempt by true sportsmen.

I think releasing a bird or animal for a hawk to catch is prohibited by the legislation which makes it illegal to (for example) release a live pigeon for competitive shooting. That's the reason they now shoot at clay pigeons rather than live ones.

Which raises an interesting issue. Was the person who was prosecuted for flying a hawk at a "baggie" pigeon charged with the wrong offence? As I understand it, he was charged with causing the pigeon unnecessary suffering -- but I could be wrong. Does anyone know? The next one might not be so lucky!

As for quarry suffering when it is chased by a hawk, I don't think an animal can understand that it might be caught and killed any more than a teenager thinks he/she is going to get cancer by smoking! At that age, we are all immortal as I suspect most animals think they are.

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Jack wrote.....I think releasing a bird or animal for a hawk to catch is prohibited by the legislation which makes it illegal to (for example) release a live pigeon for competitive shooting. That's the reason they now shoot at clay pigeons rather than live ones.

I'm pretty sure that you are correct on that Jack. It surprises me that no-one has come up with that yet, and I must admit, that piece of law hadn't even crossed my mind.
Maybe the person prosecuted could not be prosecuted for this offence as there was no intent to shoot, therefore unnecessary suffering was brought into the equasion?
As for quarry suffering when it is chased by a hawk, I don't think an animal can understand that it might be caught and killed any more than a teenager thinks he/she is going to get cancer by smoking! At that age, we are all immortal as I suspect most animals think they are.
I have never been convinced that an animal being chased by another causes any suffering.
Fight or Flight.
It is an everyday occurance for many animals.

Regards,
Lucky.

[Goran]

This is why I use few domestic.They are used to be handled (no fear) and when hawk hits them they do not know what kills them.I feed rabbit heads to my young birds and this helps alot for right catching.

[Jack Merlin]

Maybe the person prosecuted could not be prosecuted for this offence as there was no intent to shoot, therefore unnecessary suffering was brought into the equasion?

I think you hit the nail on the head. But then I was just going to write that I thought "shooting" is mentioned in the legislation so using a hawk would not covered. But releasing a live rabbit for a greyhound is definitely against the law -- I think! So that doesn't sound right.

To be safe, probably better not to do any of these things!!

[The Late Lord Lucan]

One of the interesting things I think that has shown up in this thread, is how high peoples passion runs on the subject.
I have pushed quite hard on some points, to find out peoples opinions, not to be argumentative. The arguments have started to fade, maybe because some people are just getting fed up with hearing about it, but maybe, and I suspect this is a much more likely scenario, because a lot of people have found out, myself included on some things, that we really just don't understand what it's all about.
In my interpretation, the word 'baggie' covers a lot of different things.
For example, person A says ' I use baggies to get my bird going' and person B jumps on his head because he may be assuming that he has taken a rabbit and tied all it's feet together? Whereas he may have meant, 'I took all my partridge to the field an hour before I went out, released them all, and then turned up with my bird'?
Because there is no definition of the word baggie or bagged game or whatever you want to call it, it makes it very hard to understand.
As simple as the word or phrase is, the definitions, and possible areas for concern with the law become very very complex.
Maybe, the next time someone states that they have used bagged game, somebody will seek to get a definition from that person before they jump down their throats and condemn.
And just to reiterate on a point that I have made before, I see no problem in discussing the subject, providing it is done with thought.

I feel that the major reason that this subject has become so taboo, is because of the lack of definition, some people just seem to make their own assumptions and are sure only theirs is right.

Regards,
Lucky.

[Jester]

For example, person A says ' I use baggies to get my bird going' and person B jumps on his head because he may be assuming that he has taken a rabbit and tied all it's feet together? Whereas he may have meant, 'I took all my partridge to the field an hour before I went out, released them all, and then turned up with my bird'?

must admit i was kinda person B and was dead against baggies (even though thats probably all that Jester will be able to catch on his own :roll: )
but now after reading this post ............. ummmmmmmmmmmmmm now i need to get this fencepost surgically removed :shock:

[Hawkmaster]

Nice going gentlemen! This is how is it meant to be, not swearing and slagging people off!

OK, lets look at it like this then:

1. What is a 'baggie' not then?
2. How can they be used and still comply with the law?
3. What are the benefits to ones birds?

I am sure some people believe the wrong things, and therefore have a wrong idea of baggies or how bagged game can be useful.

As I have mentioned, a bagged rabbit for instance, is not one that is disabled by breaking it legs or tied up, to switch a say Harris on to them, rather use a dead one on a creance and it beat a dummy bunny, which in my opinion is stupid, unless used for ex cerise. The bird will also remember a warm fresh rabbit just killed much better.

If this does not work, then if one was to be in a country where it is legal, or shall I say not frowned upon, release it in a field so it has a very good chance of escape or you may make the distance a bit closer and give your hawk the edge, but too close may be wrong as the hawk will not benefit from building up any kind of speed. If it gets away then so be it, but hopefully your hawk or owl chased? Then job done now go hunting!

I ALWAYS treat quarry with respect whether I am in a country that allows baggies, hunting or not, and surely this means as we can determine from our UK law, no suffering or cruelty in any way.

[Bod]

I ALWAYS treat quarry with respect whether I am in a country that allows baggies, hunting or not, and surely this means as we can determine from our UK law, no suffering or cruelty in any way.

Think you hit it on the head there HM.

[Falconry Equipment International]

A Lot of this thread seems to be how the law is interpreted & of course everyone takes their own slant on it. IMHO surely it is better to use proper fieldcarft to get what you want out of your hawk/falcon than to use bagged game which in the long run, can make the falconer lazy and bing out some really bad characteristics in behaviour of the BOP. Having said that there will of course be exceptions to the rule . just my rambling thoughts
J

[Jack Merlin]

OK, lets look at it like this then:

1. What is a 'baggie' not then?
2. How can they be used and still comply with the law?
3. What are the benefits to ones birds?

Probably easier to define what is NOT a baggie! Personally, I think (for example) releasing ex-layer grey partridges on the pen system is acceptable provided the birds are not flown until they have had time to acclimatize. That's releasing a few partridges at a pen where the rest of the covey is retained to "hold" the released birds. That is not much different to releasing reared birds. I think this would also be legal.

Tossing a pigeon or any other bird or animal , even though it is fresh trapped, is not acceptable as is must be disorientated. Also, probably illegal under the live pigeon shooting legislation.

To my mind, young game or game flown and put in by another hawk or cunningly contrived lure is a way of introducing a hawk to the selected quarry and intended to convince the bird that it can catch that quarry and to do so is rewarding.

I don't really accept that a stuffed rabbit skin won't do the job to get a short-wing or broad-wing going. It ought to be possible to get the bird fit using jump ups or the kite, then switch to the dummy. I'd reward on fresh warm pigeon or something the hawk would like, cunningly introduced from underneath the dummy, and give a gorge. Then switch (after a day's fast) to wild quarry (young rabbits, ferreted rabbits, etc) in a situation where the hawk will find them easy. Of course, if you use the dummy every day, the hawk will realize it is being fooled.

Baggies can definitely be a bad idea and teach the hawk the wrong things. See my post about the character tossing ex-layers straight out of the crate. The gos learnt to stop trying and just take them when they put in. Hawks are not stupid and if it is too easy, they won't even try for the harder wild ones in their natural habitat.

Last season, I noticed my gos was flying harder and faster when I stopped re-flushing. He realized that he had to catch in the air or it was cold rabbit for tea!! MUCH more fun!<vbg>

[Ben C]

I've just had these conversations with our friends overseas on the apprentice falconry web-site, and to be fair thay make some good arguments for their use. Personally I cannot abide the idea of using them and I am sure they are detrimental to the sport as a whole.

One even claimed that the use of a baggie was akin to a tiercel watching and learning from its parent, when the parent made a successful kill in the wild!

Ultimately you have to ask if using a trapped animal of any kind has made the falconry available in the USA better than say another country where it is illegel?

[Mr. Fong]

Goshawks and peregrines do it in nature, so why not?

[Ben C]

I appreciate that, but I am sure that the tiercel is learning far more from its parent than just catching a wounded or slower piece of prey. :D :D .

A baggie seems to be instant, i.e out of the bag and into the air/along the ground. Whereas the whole process and build up to the kill by the parent is witnessed by the youngster, and is far therefore far more intricate than just 'showing' the tiercel what is good eating :D :D

However all this is just my thinking and could well be off the mark.

[Hawkmaster]

Maybe not off that mark, more like, it seems most people do not know how to use a bagged correctly here in the UK.

If done right it teaches lessons and gets result, with no cruelty or suffering to the quarry, full stop!

[Mr. Fong]

I don't like the "instant " way nor do I like handicapping the "training material" I however, feel it is a good way to get an unsure bird working.

[Jack Merlin]

If done right it teaches lessons and gets result, with no creulty or suffering to the quarry, full stop!

Unfortunately, very rapid results in the UK, from that LACS guy in the nearest bushes pointing his zoom lens in your direction! Though whether even that would teach lessons is debateable.

Discretion is the better part of valour.

We are fortunate still to be able to rear and release game in this country. If Tony gets in again, you can bet he will fix his beady little eye on that next. It should be possible to get most birds going without baggies by starting them early when quarry is still young and inexperienced.

The falconer with the highest mounting falcons that I have seen in the UK is 76 years old and has been flying his falcons at grouse for 36 seasons without a break. A couple of years ago I watched his falcon go up out of sight on a clear day. I discussed baggies with him and he doesn't think they are necessary so he doesn't use them. So far as I am concerned, he has proved the point.

[Hawkmaster]

I also agree this can be done, BUT then one must have a substitute for the baggies to make that falcon understand that height equals success. That being plenty of wild game, or at worse a good pointing dog to find and setup the perfect situation.

[African]

can red african kites be train to catch quarry like rabbits and francolin

[Hawkmaster]

can red african kites be train to catch quarry like rabbits and francolin
No they are just not built for it, very good at locusts and mice etc, similar to the Yellow Billed Kites I used to have.

[MattSpar]

May I remind everyone that the use of bagged quarry in the UK is against the law. Furthermore, it serves no more useful a purpose where entering to quarry is concerned, than do traditionally proven methods. I repeat, to the chagrin of some I'm sure, its use is an admission of an inability to train a bird properly.

[Takajo]

I don't use it, but what if it WAS legal? Being that it is, as you say, on par with traditionally proven methods, why would it be an admission of inability at falconry??? Maybe it's quite practical.
Just because it's easy to fly a Harris' Hawk doesn't mean the falconer is a dumb tw..t. Maybe one shouldn't limit oneself to 100% tradition. I don't wear tights and ride a horse while hawking. Why should bagged game make me a 9th-rate falconer?? :?:

[Jiff]

the art of falconry i'm sure is to have a bird catch it's quary naturaly, putting one in a bag don't count unless it's frozen.... bootifull!

[Takajo]

Even if it's for training?

[MattSpar]

The use of bagged quarry has no advantages in the training of a bird. MARK WELL THIS PROPHECY...... Hunting has gone, shooting is now under attack. It won't be long before the anti field sports lobby turn their attention to our sport. If it is ever banned (and that's more than a possibility), it will be the issue of bagged quarry that finally topples it.
It is everyone's responsibility to give the anti brigade as little ammunition as possible, & to present falconry in its true light, as the best of all field sports.

[Takajo]

As I said, I don't do it and never will. I'm just wondering what the reasoning behind the statement that it has no advantages (practically speaking) is. If you're having a hawk chase live game, obviously they're
receiving good experience. Seems to be a man-made concept, which I am
quite happy to abide by...

[MattSpar]

Bagged game, when released, behaves differently from wild game in its natural environment. Those who use this method often go further by disabling the quarry to a greater or lesser degree, thereby hoping help their bird by making escape impossible (many may deny this, but I know it to be so). This does nothing to teach a bird how wild quarry would behave, but it does teach it to look to the falconer as a source of easy quarry, both of which are undesirable. Better by far to enter a hawk by matching it with eaqually inexperienced quarry IN THE WILD STATE, and then progress to proper flights as its experience grows. At the risk of being boring, I repeat yet again, the use of bagged quarry will be the quickest way to get our sport banned.

[Takajo]

Mos def..

[JFSeaman]

As an American starting falconry in the UK, I won't be using baggies.

When I return to the US, I won't be using baggies.

If baggies were a good idea, it'd be in the Boke of St Albans, or E.B. Mitchells 'The Art and Practice of Hawking'. Or in Phillip Glasiers book, or Nick Fox's book or Beebe's books. I don't remember seeing bagged quary in any of those, I could be wrong but I won't use them anyway.

The reason I want to use a BOP to hunt is the magnificance of the flight and the love of all BOP, well all animals including the human ones, but BOP flights are what falconry is for.

[Takajo]

Bagged game is against the law. I'm just questioning why some people think it's wrong. Just because it isn't in Glasier's or the Boke or the Bible? Matt's argument that they behave differently seems to sound viable. But what if I let a pigeon go (already bagged)for my peregrine and it gives the most awesome flight? The argument is shot. Surely a lure is lesser quality game than live quarry, but we use THAT to train as well.I want a really good explanation besides [it's the law] or [bagged animals are lesser quality quarry]. I wonder if it may fall under cruelty to animals? Or is falconry in general cruel to the falcon? Having it leashed up and bating; and, in the end, just so we can get a thrill? Surely it's more than that. So why would bagged game be so evil?.....

[JFSeaman]

For me, it is a choice for my own complicated reasons. Example, I've kept pidgeons. I don't hate or love pidgeons any more than other animals. I'd hunt free range/neusance pidgeons in a minute if I had a falcon but not a raised or trapped pidgeon.

The falconry challenge is to properly train the falcon, enter the falcon on pidgeons, or other preferred quary, which would probably be young quary just as in the wild and in history. Gradually build the falcon's confidence to go after more difficult adult quary. I prefer to do this without baggies.

I believe the UK it is a legal issue born out of the moral issue that baggies are at a disadvantage. The English seem to love a fair fight and hate an unfair fight. Entering an inexperienced falcon, hawk or buzzard (redtail) againts young, inexperienced wild quary is a fair fight.

Anyone else want to contribute more on the why baggies are evil?

[Takajo]

I believe the UK it is a legal issue born out of the moral issue that baggies are at a disadvantage.
Because their fate is sealed, I suppose. :roll:

[MattSpar]

In answer to Takajo's request for a good answer besides - It's the law, or - Bagged animals are a lesser quality quarry, I suggest these two reasons alone are more than sufficient for any law abiding falconer who has respect for his quarry, of whatever species, however "humble". As for a released pigeon giving a peregrine a good flight being some kind of vindication for the practice, it still entails waiting till the falcon is best placed to give the pigeon the least chance of escape, & if Takajo then tells me this isn't the reason... well... then why use a bagged pigeon at all? One should fly the falcon properly at WILD quarry. Don't have the time or land to fly wild quarry? Then don't fly a peregrine.

[Renton]

Quote:I believe the UK it is a legal issue born out of the moral issue that baggies are at a disadvantage.

Because their fate is sealed, I suppose.

Very true. Take driven pheasant shooting as an example, it is unethical and very unsporting to shoot a pheasant on the ground; the pheasant has no chance. However, the same bird driven over a stand 40+ yards up with the wind behind it and the odds are in the birds' favour!

[Takajo]

A fair fight seems to be the moral of the story. That's what it boils down to. That's what makes falconry a sport and not a hobby, eh.

[Sprout]

Because their fate is sealed, I suppose.
Not true. With falcons and pigeons the idea is generally NOT to catch the pigeon. Baggies are used in this instance to teach a falcon position, by offering the pigeon when out of position it will have to tail chase and hopefully not catch the pigeon thus also teaching NOT to chase check. If the pigeon is caught you have suceeded in teaching your falcon to chase pigeons, quickest way of losing a gamehawk. Nothing beats regular flushes on wild quarry!

[Isaac]

Interesting topic. I just got my copy of American Falconry magazine yesterday and there was an interesting article on getting higher pitches or "skying out" falcons. The article was written by the late Gerald Richards, my first mentor and creator of the "Sky Trials" competition. His technique was to go out to the bench areas between the valleys and the mountains where there were good thermals and let the rising air encourage the young falcon off his fist. As soon as the falcon was air born he would toss out a strong flying homing pigeon (a baggie...?) that would lead the falcon out over the valley. The pigeons had been released from there plenty of times and didn't need to circle to get their bearings, the just b-lined it for home and always left the young falcon far behind...BUT out over the valley where the thermals were. The falcon would find these thermals (or "elevators" as he descibes them in the article) and be lifted almost effortlessly to several thousand feet before drifting back overhead because of the prevailing winds. Once over head a weaker flying pigeon (another baggie...?) would be tossed out and because of the height of the falcon, usually be taken. A reward for attaining such a high pitch. Later when he would take these birds out in search of grouse they would search the sky for thermals to attain incredible pitches and turned into incredible gamehawks putting in sizzling stoops from insane heights. If the bird was a passage bird (wild taken) then I suppose that this would come fairly naturally to the falcon as it has had plenty of experience with thermals but for a captive bred falcon the lesson to go out over the valley was learned by chasing a "baggie", that was NOT MEANT TO BE CAUGHT. The second "baggie" wasn't hindered except for the fact that it was not as strong a flier as the first one and the falcon had an exceptional pitch. The outcome was not set in stone but pretty sure. Now I'm pretty sure that both of these pigeons being released by hand while the falcon is present would be considered "baggies" but I don't see any cruelty or suffering in either one and anyone who knows who Gerald Richards is (extremely well known in the U.S.) would not consider him less of a falconer for using them. His falcons were incredible gamehawks.
So I guess my question is (to all those who are against "baggies"), in this type of situation would using baggies still be considered "wrong" (I know it's illegal in the U.K., but if it wasn't) or make someone less of a falconer in your eyes?
Just curious, no need to bite my head off...
-Isaac
P.S. I guess we could talk about the Sky Trials competition and the use of pigeons there (that are not meant to be caught but certainly "baggies") but that would open up a whole new can of worms. (Whether or not Sky Trails is falconry etc...)

[Takajo]

Do you know Sugisaki-sensei? He lives near Tokyo and started the sky-trials in Japan. He's the one with the wingless Harris Hawk. Knows ALOT about falconry, but what he does practically makes me wonder. Sky trials were cool as!

[Isaac]

Not familiar with him. What does he do? (You can email me privately). A wingless Harris? How did that happen? I'm assuming you didn't go to the Japan Skytrials last February as I'm pretty sure I would've noticed another foreigner there...You going to go to the ones next year?

[JFSeaman]

Oh Oh, sky trials.

We could overload the server on that one.

To start with sky trials if I understand them, require bagged game, so I won't do it.

My participation in Falconry is for me, I'll share it wit like minded indivuals and select sympathetic friends. It's not a competition.

Such a characterization of the American condition. Take something that is historic, ecological and environmentally healthy and turn it into a competition. Arggggg! Remember I am an American in London.

The training goal is good but I believe it is an example of the end not justifying the means. Couldn't the same mount and stoop be obtained with a lure?

[Isaac]

Yeah, we'll leave Sky Trials for another thread.
As far as the same stoop being achieved with a lure, maybe I'm just not versed enough in luring techniques. I don't see how a lure would encourage the bird to go up to several thousand feet riding thermals. My understanding from the article was that the pigeon lured the falcon into the air out over the valley where thermals were present.
I'm primarily a shortwinger, only trained one praire falcon when I was 14 and only did the basic training part before giving it back to my sponsor so my experience with lure training falcons is minimal to non-exsistent. I'd love to hear how it could be done though. I've never even imagined a bird going up a few thousand feet just to come down to a lure. I guess in a sense it seems like a waste to have a bird go up so high for a lure. Give it game or a good flying homer (which 9 times out of 10 isn't caught) and enjoy the show!
-Isaac

[JFSeaman]

I'm no expert on lure training but I've watched my mentor and discussed it at length.

It seems similar to what we would do hunting. This is what I think I understand from my mentor and from the E.B. Mitchell, Philip Glasier and Nick Fox books.

Hunting, if your bird mounts well and takes quary successfully, you would let the bird have good feed so as to reenforce the work reward relationship. When the bird begings to mount in the thermal you don't flush the quary until the bird is very high. The next time hopefully you'll have a thermal and she will make the connection and go high or higher.

With the lure, let the bird mount, don't produce the lure until you are satisfied the bird has worked the available lift well. By not producing the lure immediately, you are emulating the hunt. It might even be good to pretent to flush the lure. When the bird has worked the thermal well, produce the lure with a good size chunk of favorite food. When I get around to this I might even have two lures ready, one with a smaller chunk of food to use if the bird doesn't go as high as I think she could, one with a larger reward for when the bird does go very high. Let the bird have the lure with fewer passes than if she was flying circles around your training ground so that she associates higher with less work at the attack. Let her feed up if she went very high. The next day might be a day off because she is fed up but that should reinforce the work reward relationship. She worked hard, got high, stooped, got fed up and got a day off. Whoohooo.

Someone with more experience please tell me if I got it right or wrong.

Last thing, the only bird I've lured has far more experience than I do. She had lots of tricks to catch me out. You and your bird will probably gain experience at the same time but practice with the lure without the bird present so that when she learns to go high you have learned how to move the lure for her.

[Takajo]

Sugisaki might only do the Kanto Sky-Trials. They were in April. Beautiful flights from a lot of birds. A merlin took the prize this year. Sugisaki seems to know a bit about training, but in Japan it seems that veteranarial knowledge of b.o.p. is sorely lacking. Anything available seems to be in English. He had no idea about wing-tip edema, and his birds don't even have a bath. Some know what they're doin, some say they do. Not giving a bird the benefit of a bath is just heinous :evil:

[Takajo]

Such a characterization of the American condition. Take something that is historic, ecological and environmentally healthy and turn it into a competition. Arggggg! Remember I am an American in London.
I think we were talking about Japanese sky trials Seaman. I'll try to remember you're in London. My memory fails me sometimes..

[Isaac]

He had no idea about wing-tip edema, and his birds don't even have a bath. Some know what they're doin, some say they do. Not giving a bird the benefit of a bath is just heinous

:oops: This is rather embarrassing to admit but I don't know much about wing-tip edema either. Maybe I know it by a different name? Could you fill me in a bit? As for the bath thing, I seem to see that a lot in Japan. Most birds just seem to be tethered to their screen perches all day! My spar is free lofted in the small space I have with 4 different perches and a bath that gets changed regularly. And yet I'm still inhumane enough to use bag game when I think its necessary! :wink:

Such a characterization of the American condition. Take something that is historic, ecological and environmentally healthy and turn it into a competition. Arggggg! Remember I am an American in London.

I think we were talking about Japanese sky trials Seaman. I'll try to remember you're in London. My memory fails me sometimes..

At the time I was talking about Gerald Richards, the American who invented the Sky Trials in Utah and then I asked if you'd been to the ones in Japan. Crossed signals! :rolleyes:
But trying to keep things somewhat on the topic of this thread (bagged game), this year in the Japan Skytrials at least, they didn't release live pigeons. Rather someone held it's legs and made it flap to get the birds to come after it and then hid it once they got close. No pigeons were killed during the event but it seemed almost more cruel to sit there and flap the pigeon back and forth then just let it go! How did they do it at the Kanto Skytrials? With all the gripe over bagged game in Britian do they even hold skytrials there? I thought I heard that there was a big one in Spain though, can anyone verify that?

[Takajo]

Same situation at Kanto. Unreleased pigeons.

[Mr. Fong]

When I return to the US, I won't be using baggies.

If baggies were a good idea, it'd be in the Boke of St Albans, or E.B. Mitchells 'The Art and Practice of Hawking'. Or in Phillip Glasiers book, or Nick Fox's book or Beebe's books. I don't remember seeing bagged quary in any of those, I could be wrong but I won't use them anyway.



You might want to re-read the section in "North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks" or "a Falconry manual" where Beebe talks about using baggies to get your bird to hunt crow..........

[Gaz]

Nice to see you back Fongy old bean :finga:

[Takajo]

Right, you lot....The home page of this forum says that falconry is hunting quarry in its natural state and habitat. ooi? That means without a falconer. Which it's a state that no one interferes with, eh? C'moooon people! Who ya kiddin'? Falconry's about as natural as a plastic pole up the ass. Human's tethering a raptor and given it Pavlovian conditioning. Give me a ****in break! "Baggies aint unnatural".. :lol: Boke of St. Albans, Glasier or whatever other ****pot said you musn't do. IT'S bloody NATURAL!

[Takajo]

Let the tirade begin or shut my ass down...

[Mr. Fong]

Good to be back gaz- got all sorted out here and bought my house ( 1/2 mile from the pub, 40 miles from the rocky mountain front) I'll be gone come nov, so I can't make it to NAFA this year :( I have to take my federal exam next week so I'm studying my butt off
c-ya

B