Can you....

[Dan Bray]

Hello longwingers,
I'm fairly new to falconry, so please be gentle.
Is it possible to fly a longwing at corvids and gulls in the summer months while you would be moulting another bird. Can you control the moult to an extent so they would moult in the winter.
Cheers
Dan

[Remington]

The moult is dictated by daylight hours, so no you can't move the moult. However wild birds hunt through the moult with no ill efects! The only time I lay birds off to moult is if they are in poor feather after a hard season, or if they are to breed. The bird will moult adequately at hunting weight so long as you have regular gorge and rest days.

[Nig295]

The moult is dictated by daylight hours, so no you can't move the moult. However wild birds hunt through the moult with no ill efects! The only time I lay birds off to moult is if they are in poor feather after a hard season, or if they are to breed. The bird will moult adequately at hunting weight so long as you have regular gorge and rest days.

Wow first time I have heard that, does anyone else think that a bird can be moulted at hunting weight with no detrimental affects?

I am not suggesting for one minute that you are wrong as I have only limited experience, but it goes against all that I have been led to believe.

[David Rampling]

I dont hunt with my team of falcons, but they fly to the lure twice daily in shows all summer, and moult out perfectly by October.A hunting falcon might be a tad lower in weight, (as I am relying on routine for my team,) my guess is a hunting bird would moult, but slowly, and then may finish the moult when fattened up at the end of the season.

[SimonC]

i really dont have much experience at all but all i have to say is that i know people moult there birds out in the summer but the thing is that a wild bird hunts all year long and has no real problem these bird would be at a flying weight as all birds that are handed into places are never fat

[Sean D]

i really dont have much experience at all but all i have to say is that i know people moult there birds out in the summer but the thing is that a wild bird hunts all year long and has no real problem these bird would be at a flying weight as all birds that are handed into places are never fat

I think you will find a wild bop at its natural flying weight would be somewhat heavier then if its weight was dictated and used by a falconer

[Remington]

I am not sure wether or not some of you are being sarcastic or not.A birds hunting weight as a wild bird is obviously something we can only guess, but surely we all know that when a wild male is moulting ,he is not only hunting for himself but also for his missus and young, for an extended period of time. He moults when his body and feathers are under the most stressfull conditions of his year, yet moults a perfect set of new feathers, a female both in the wild and captivity will delay their moult if on the nest because of possible damage caused to feathers in blood by squabbling young. Lets not over complicate this issue. Falconers normally lay their birds off to moult at this time of year cos the game season is closed.

[David Rampling]

I am not sure wether or not some of you are being sarcastic or not.A birds hunting weight as a wild bird is obviously something we can only guess, but surely we all know that when a wild male is moulting ,he is not only hunting for himself but also for his missus and young, for an extended period of time. He moults when his body and feathers are under the most stressfull conditions of his year, yet moults a perfect set of new feathers, a female both in the wild and captivity will delay their moult if on the nest because of possible damage caused to feathers in blood by squabbling young. Lets not over complicate this issue. Falconers normally lay their birds off to moult at this time of year cos the game season is closed.

Sorry mate, have to dissagree with some of that. Birds moult in the summer when lots of young prey species around, so easy food for male feeding young. When casualty dead birds of prey are bought in in summer months and weighed they are found to be both fit and fat, certainly heavier than a trained equivelent. Although triggered by daylength, the moult can be postponed if short rations are given, and can be started as late as nov/dec if fattenned up then. Finally I believe falconers stop flying in the summer because of thick cover, and most like to allow prey species to breed. Dont mean to be awkward, just dont agree with your thinking.

[Goran]

Daylight triggers their moult. Falconer can induce early or late moult by using grow light. Wild birds hunt for other reasons and at higher weight compared to falconry birds. Fret marks show if bird was under stress while in moult. Wild birds do get fret marks from poor feeding.
Goran

[Remington]

Well, its good for everyone to share their opinion, Whilst I find it difficult to understand how a bird of prey brought into you can be both fit and fat.....yet dead. I do understand what you are saying about other young prey species being around, but surely their growth coincides with that of the young falcon, thus supplying an easy food source for the immature falcon and not its parents.

I believe falconers lay their birds of to moult for two reasons, firstly tradition, since in the old days hunting falcons taken from the wild then flown at game through the winter, would be hacked back at this time of year and secondly because it is illegal to hunt game out of season.

And surely you as a professional falconer David, should understand that a weight means absolutely nothing on its own. you need to know all the factors leading up to that days weight? and Due to weakened captive gene pools created by greedy falconers, it is generally accepted that most wild birds of prey are fractionally larger than their captive counter parts.

But I bow to your experience, I am sure that you are right what with you being professional and all and me just a lowly Kestrel flyer.

[David Rampling]

Well, its good for everyone to share their opinion, Whilst I find it difficult to understand how a bird of prey brought into you can be both fit and fat.....yet dead. I do understand what you are saying about other young prey species being around, but surely their growth coincides with that of the young falcon, thus supplying an easy food source for the immature falcon and not its parents.

I believe falconers lay their birds of to moult for two reasons, firstly tradition, since in the old days hunting falcons taken from the wild then flown at game through the winter, would be hacked back at this time of year and secondly because it is illegal to hunt game out of season.

And surely you as a professional falconer David, should understand that a weight means absolutely nothing on its own. you need to know all the factors leading up to that days weight? and Due to weakened captive gene pools created by greedy falconers, it is generally accepted that most wild birds of prey are fractionally larger than their captive counter parts.

But I bow to your experience, I am sure that you are right what with you being professional and all and me just a lowly Kestrel flyer.

Shame you had to resort to sarcasm at the end. Having spent many of my younger years as an amature taxidermist, I had, and still have many dead birds of prey bought in to me. Road casualties, windows etc kill many birds in the summer. These adult birds have huge pectoral muscles, and plenty of internal fat, hence fit, fat and dead! True, wieght alone means nothing, but I have never seen a captive bird quite like this. Young prey species are often caught by feeding parent birds for there young. I see buzzards taking tiny bunnys to their nest regularly in the summer. As far as hacking birds back after the season is done, it was done in the past with merlins, but most birds were too hard to come by to just release them. There is no closed season for rabbits, and most falconers in this country hunt them! Finally, your point about weakened captive gene pools may be right, I dont know. I would never be so rude as to call you a lowly kestrel flyer.

[Remington]

David I'm not trying to be sarcastic just realistic, I understand your comments about the inside of wild birds you have used for taxidermy, but in reality how often do you get the chance to see the internals of a captive hunting bird whilst in its prime?
The comment about young rabbits is of course perfectly right but I have caught rabbits the size of a mars bar at any given point of the year since they breed all year round.

This thread was originally about flying a bird through the moult, can you, can't you. I have year on year with no ill effect, I am sure as a display falconer that you do too?

[Dan Bray]

So would it be possible to fly and hunt 1 bird from say august to febuary while another is kept in a aivery to moult, then do a swap and fly and hunt the 1 that was moulting, and leave the other to moult, so you would have birds to fly all year round.
Do any of you do this?

[Jiff]

i havnt read all replies so soz if i repeat, firstly the moult! is without doubt braught about by the longer daylight hours, this however coincides with the onset of spring which as a knock on warns the birds that summer is comming we'd better get at it, breeding/pairing up has nothing to do with the moult, when i raced pigeons we would take young birds as soon as they were starting to fly and "darken them off" i.e put them in a loft where light can be controled, they were given light at 8.30-9am and darkened off at 4-5, inbetween they were given theire freedom and trained to get fit, however instead of mid summer they thaught it was autumn and quickly shed theire jeuvanile plumage and grew adult plumage, which meant come young bird racing we were racing young pigeons in adult plumage, we cleaned up!
now this weight thing, there is no doubt in my mind that a bird on or arround our so called hunting/flying weight will moult out no problem that is a known fact......some bloke called beebe even documented it, but what does he know, in the wild there is no such thing as a flying hunting weight, granted B.O.P will often go day's between kills, thats down to appetite not weight management (they don't pop into boots and weigh themselves) when they pair up the male will show off he's hunting prowess at first to the female, once eggs start to chip both birds go into hormonal overdrive and once they hatch the parrents are ready to chase and catch anything not because of weight control or condition but because of a hormonal instinct to carry on the species.
we introduce food/weight ect as that is the only control that we have over the birds, weight control is man made and can never be compared with the attitudes of wild birds. in a nut shell yes the bird can be flown through the moult without a problem, one carachtersistic the domesticated bird shares with the wild is the fact that they would never leave themselves vunerable, and so will moult in a controled manner, so no matter what stage of the moult they will always be able to fly to the best of theire abbility.:yawinkle:

[FredrickFogg]

So would it be possible to fly and hunt 1 bird from say august to febuary while another is kept in a aivery to moult, then do a swap and fly and hunt the 1 that was moulting, and leave the other to moult, so you would have birds to fly all year round.
Do any of you do this?

I do, but not with falcons, but with hawks. I fly a red-tail from October to the end of February and a coopers hawk from March until July. I force her molt at the end of July by feeding her up and having her under grow lights for 18 hours a day. She finished her molt in early February this year and is feather perfect right now.

[Dan Bray]

I do, but not with falcons, but with hawks. I fly a red-tail from October to the end of February and a coopers hawk from March until July. I force her molt at the end of July by feeding her up and having her under grow lights for 18 hours a day. She finished her molt in early February this year and is feather perfect right now.

With regards to grow lights, what are these and whats the method behind them.

[David Rampling]

David I'm not trying to be sarcastic just realistic, I understand your comments about the inside of wild birds you have used for taxidermy, but in reality how often do you get the chance to see the internals of a captive hunting bird whilst in its prime?
The comment about young rabbits is of course perfectly right but I have caught rabbits the size of a mars bar at any given point of the year since they breed all year round.

This thread was originally about flying a bird through the moult, can you, can't you. I have year on year with no ill effect, I am sure as a display falconer that you do too?
Yes, you are quite right, sorry if I came across as an ****, I do sometimes. Can you fly a bird through through the moult, yes of course you can.

[FredrickFogg]

With regards to grow lights, what are these and whats the method behind them.

My understanding of them, and someone else that knows more is welcome to give a better answer, is that in the spring as the days get longer, you can create this by having these grow lights coming on and going off. And by using grow lights, they are getting the same UV stuff that the sun produces in the spring and summer. I start out by having them come on at day break and then go off as sunset. I then increase the time that they go off about 30 minutes every 2 days until I have them coming on at day break and being on for about 18 hours, usually 6 a.m. until midnight. Works for me!

[Barkai]

Wow first time I have heard that, does anyone else think that a bird can be moulted at hunting weight with no detrimental affects?

I am not suggesting for one minute that you are wrong as I have only limited experience, but it goes against all that I have been led to believe.

Yes they definitely can as long it is given a gorge every now and then and a rest day. I like to fly it as high as it can and still hunt well.

Of course it will take longer but that is to be expected.

Here is an idea (:idea:),fly Monday-Friday and on Saturday also fly it but give it a full gorge and then on Sunday don't fly it and feed it only enough to get it to flying weight for Monday. Then in the moult fly it Tuesday-Friday and on Saturday also fly it but give it a full gorge and Then on Sunday also give it a full gorge and then on Monday don't fly it but feed it only enough to get it to weight on Tuesday. Just an idea

Stephen

[Dan Bray]

Interesting replys. I would love to get a longwing oneday as well as a hawk, but dont think i would have the time to fly both everyday,( not to mention the greif i would get off the mrs), but this sounds like maybe a way of flying 2birds through-out the year.