Virtual A.I

[Varmint]

Right folks were gonna start a forum breeding project and try to produce a few select birds by AI.

This is a brand new project i've been working toward for the past 4 years and this year things should start to kick off.

I hope to post this as a full pic diary, not for slaggings or contardiction but for education. If you dont like the birds im gonna produce, If you dont agree with the birds im gonna produce. dont read this thread!

If you cant read my spelling or grammar, tuff! im a falconer, not an english teacher!

Although i have produced birds in the past using these techniques, things are always moving on so i will tell you whats happening and why and maybe beytween us we can implement and improve?

I got to go out just now, but later tonight i'll post up pics of the AI team and discuss where we are at , at the moment!

Welcome to the assylum!

[ChicM]

:arrow:




...welcome back Mate :D

[Steve L]

Good to see you back adrian, and looking forward to this thread.

steve

[Darren]

yeah....get on with it mate.......cant wait to see

[Shaun Byrne]

Come on, I'm sat here with my silicone hat on, rubber glove and syringe at the ready!!! lol!!

[Varmint]

Ok so lets have a look at the birds in question.

First up is "******"

****** is a 6 yr old socila imprint (Did her myself) bred by Pere Gill and she is a Barbary Peregrine/Lugger.
She has been one of my main display falcons for the past 5 seasons and is a really , really reliable girls who always hits the mark.

I really want her to have the experience of rearing a family in between show season.

She has justs tarted standing for me over the last week and laid her first (unfertilized) egg on Friday, second egg yesterday but i have no semen at the moment from any of my boys (too Early)

The plan is to let her carry one laying her eggs to full clutch (maybe another 3) and then allow her top settle and sit for 6 days before removing this infertile clutch with the hope that she Recycles and starts to lay again, by that time some of my boys should be in condition.

[Varmint]

And talking of boys here they are,

Jet is a Gyr/SAk (Black) and has been producing naturally for 1 season on my hat, very fertile and very good looking.

Robin is a Scottish Peregrine bred from my own stock and is just 3 yrs old this year, although he jumped on the hat last season he has yet to produce semen, but it really is only a matter of time.

Cadbury is a 9 yr old Sakret, my favourite falcon period, i could tell you some stories about this little cahp, but id be here all night and youd be dead of boredom, so i wont.
Cadbury is a bit of a problem in the bedroom department??

[Shaun Byrne]

So which of the 3 donors are you hoping to use on ******, or is it first come first served? pmsl, if you know what I mean.

[Varmint]

Well Guys, i think it a waste of Time to put Gyr/Saker into her because i dont think the offspring would be much good for anything (although they would be pretty) so i really have my sights set on Peregrine (Pref Barbary) but at least peregrine will produce something with speed, power and aggresion.
I would buy semen in if i could get some Barbary semen.

[Varmint]

But i have also got a couple more girls for you to look at.

Mo is a 7 yr old Social imprint Saker.

She was a valued member of Mick Boons project and is a prolific layer and rearer.

I got her just at the start of last season and although she layed 12 eggs, would not stand for me.
This year she is already looking much better and is bowing in the scrape at the moment, but as yet is not sufficiently enough in condition to allow me contact or pressure on her back.
I have high hopes for her.

Finally, Rattler.

Rattler is a 4yr old Per/Sak who was bred by Gary Wall.
Superb Rook Hawk and very, very compitent flyer.

Although the Peri/Saker females are not supposed to be that easy to fertilise, i have it on good authority that they will catch every 3rd or 4th egg, but really i will use rattler as a foster mum.

So how do we get these boys and girls in condition?
What are our objectives?
What do we breed with what and why?

[Falconer]

Glad ya back m8
been @ work all afternoon

[Varmint]

So which of the 3 donors are you hoping to use on ******, or is it first come first served?

Well in an ideal world i would like to put Peregrine back into her, but it may be 4-6 weeks before Robin Donates (if at all?) but i should be able to get Peregrine semen from friends within the next 4 weeks.

So do i:

Carry on pulling ******s eggs, in the hope that she will lay 10-14 eggs and with 3 days between eggs that will take me into next month, or do i leave her to finish sitting this clutch, allow her to sit tight for a week and pull the clutch in the hope that she will recycle in 7-14 days.

The latter option will guarentee i have semen of some sort available.

what are your thoughts?

[Bod]

How many eggs are in a normal clutch?
Also what material do you use in the scrape?

[Varmint]

How many eggs are in a normal clutch?

Naturally, msot falcons lay either 3 or 4 eggs but this can be manipulated in a number of ways, for example egg pulling!
A falcon has the ability to count her eggs and if she has it in her mind to lay 4, then pulling each egg as it is laid will encourage her to keep laying until she has reached her target number.

Also what material do you use in the scrape?

I used to use fine pea gravel, but had some egg damage in the past, so no i use crushed Henna stems. Whilst this material is bio degradable and ther fore might offer some risk of fungus, all of my imprints are in cover so the nest site remains completly dry.


_________________

[Bubo]

Even though i have absolutely no experience with this what so ever I would go with your second plan. Would your bird not tire by using up so much energy by all that egg pulling in your first option? the second option just sounds to be a bit less strenous for the bird. but as i say this is just a question cos i have no idea.

bubo
happy to see ya back again varmint

[Bubo]

oh goodness the questions are starting already, sorry!! :oops: but is sand not a good idea for scrapes? if not, why not?
bubo

[Shaun Byrne]

So which of the 3 donors are you hoping to use on ******, or is it first come first served?
allow her to sit tight for a week and pull the clutch in the hope that she will recycle in 7-14 days.

what are your thoughts?

I would allow her to sit then pull the full clutch. If you keep her laying until you get semen it will take its toll on her physically and if there is a delay in getting semen you will end up pulling the lot anyway.

Allowing her to sit and recover from laying will keep her in good health and solid breeding condition.

Just my humble opinion :D

[Darren]

I would let her layup on her clutch & then remove just as the males are performing, Would pulling the eggs all the time cause calcium problems in her?
I am only learning

[Claire]

it doesnt seem fair to make her lay 14 or so eggs even with calcium suppliment wouldnt that be a bit much? so Id go for the second option too. great thread varmint very interesting and they are georgeous birds.

[Varmint]

Well folks before i tell you what i have decided, i better just fill you in on a few more deatils and answer a few of your questions.

Firstly, egg production.

It is my understanding that a bird has a certain number of eggs it is capable of laying in its life! my natural Sakers lay two consecutive clutches of 6 eggs making a total of 12 in one season, some breeders even try for a third clutch??

Whilst there are moral issues and bird welfare issues to be answered on all of these points, i feel it fair to say that most commercial breeders might expect as many as 22 eggs from one female in a season??

As far as straine or trouble in calcium production? commercial hens lay 1000's of eggs in their life so what is so morally different? why is a Falcons life of lower value to say a chicken? But we do care more about the falcon, so a diet of Fresh quail, Pheasant, DOC's, and Mice are all supplemented with Breeders supplements powder.

fate has a strange way of deciding things!

I was trying both Jet and Robin on the hat this morning when i got a poor small donation from jet, i checked it unedr the microscope but it had very poor activity. I performed a volutary insemination on ****** with it fresh.

She has aonly just started to stand for me properly over the past three days, and when i say stand for me properly i mean, she is standing in the nest Scrape, with head bowed to the ground , tail up in the air, wings out to her sides, openly exposing her vent to be.
I approach her calling in the manner of my tiercel Peregrine and apply gently pressure to the base of her back, her tail wips to one side and she calls.

The insemination was very easy as i used a medical pippeter with soft nip and quickly squirted the semen just to the outside of her vent, which was pulsing and i could see reverse peristalisis begin as the semen was drawn in.

This bird layed last year and the year before but would never stand for me, she has this year but why?

I personally feel that because i have flown her daily until 2 weeks ago and i have maointained daily contact with her since, we have done away with dsuty introductions and real courtship may have started several weeks ago as far as she in conserned?

Nest material,

Sand can be a problem fro a number of reasons but mainly that if food is eaten on it it sticks to the food and both parent or sibling can get impacted crops. I find this hemp stuff works great and have used it with my natural pairs for several years.
Many large breeders use wood shavings as an alternative?

Todays insemination will not have caught egg number 3, due the day after tomorrow, but it may catch egg number 4 if it was good enough stuff.

Ill incubate egg no 3 and 4 under her, and then pull them 6 days later hoping for an eventual recycle, when there is more semen available.

So back to getting the girls in condition, any idea's?

[Shaun Byrne]

So back to getting the girls in condition, any idea's?

Food passing?, iron suppliments?, vocalisation (chupping)?, regular contact?

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Varmint wrote.....
what are your thoughts?

Having absolutely no experience in AI, my thoughts here will be fairly restricted, but here goes.....

Varmint asked the following questions....
So how do we get these boys and girls in condition?
What are our objectives?
What do we breed with what and why?

Firstly can these questions be put in any sort of order?
My lines of thinking go something like this sort of order....What do we breed with what and why?, well, that would really depend on the answer to the second question, What are our objectives?.

What are you're objectives Varmint? You have listed, with some details, the birds you are hoping to use, but you have given us no insight as to what you are hoping to achieve with any resulting progeny.
Once a final goal is decided upon, then the choice of birds will probably become a lot clearer.
So how do we get these boys and girls in condition?.
I have absolutely no idea, and shall be reading with interest to find out.

So do i:
Carry on pulling ******s eggs, in the hope that she will lay 10-14 eggs and with 3 days between eggs that will take me into next month, or do i leave her to finish sitting this clutch, allow her to sit tight for a week and pull the clutch in the hope that she will recycle in 7-14 days.
The latter option will guarentee i have semen of some sort available.
what are your thoughts?
Again, having no experience, I am guessing that either method is going to be a bit of a gamble. I would also guess that should you choose a particular method, and it works (or maybe doesn't) then at the very least you will have more knowledge of what most likely will or won't work for a particular bird. Having not done this before with '******', then I'm guessing that you will have to take some sort of 'experienced gamble'?

Cadbury is a bit of a problem in the bedroom department??
'It takes two to tango' is the first thing that springs to mind. Is he really a problem?
Are you dancing to the right tune? I can already see some people thinking 'what the hell is this bloke on about', but surely this would matter?
To word it very simply, if the bird doesn't have the attraction to you, why would he produce semen for you?
Is the bird really a problem in this department, or have you not given him the right 'chat up line' yet?

Regards,
Lucky.

[Varmint]

Good ole LLL,

consise , objective and inquisitive!

all very valid points mate! so back to objectives.

I would like to produce a couple of Male offspring from ******, pref to a peregrine male for use as a display cast. Failing that i know that my Gyr/Saker (jet) will produce some nice dark falcons suitable for display.

What do you think i should produce and why?

I would like to produce both Dark 3/4 gyr/Sakers and Pere/Sakers from Mo.

I particularly would like to keep and imprint a dark Female, but would also like to produce a few good rook hawks in the form of Pere/Sakers.

As for Rattler, even if she lays and sits, i think she'll be a great foster mum, but would gladly put Peregrine back into her for hunting stock.

Back to ****** and her current situation,

I will be allowing her to finish this cycle , letting her sit and pulling in the hope of re cycling its a risk im gonna have to take.

Finally "Cadbury", Lucky

He has been flown heavily by me over the years and loves me to pieces. I have tried over the past three yaers variouse methods to get him on the hat which have worked with many other birds, but no joy.

He behaves and performs exactly as a female would?

Scrapes, bowes for coppulation and the slightest contact has him howling with his bum in the air!

Is he Gay? ( or does he just wish to help out the other side when they are busy?)

So back to the girls in a minute, what are your thoughts and suggestions on Cadbury?

[Saker-Clive]

This isn't a pervy question or anything but is it possible to get some pics. of which ever male doner, on the hat doing the 'biz'.
I've tried to explain to the family how it is done but they just laugh.........

We don't need a full facial of you in the hat going through the motions but it would be nice to see the hat in operation.
Is it a specially designed rubber helmet or do you make your own??

[ChicM]

Is it just me or is this thread getting waaaaayyyy too kinky...?

[Bod]

If you carry on Chic I'll have to post another pic of a female bodybuilder.

On a serious note very interesting topic, obviously a lot more to it than meets the eye

[ChicM]

You're all weirdos! :D

[Varmint]

Well guys, im not gonna take any pics of the action with my boys yet, cause they are still a bit nervey,

But here is a pic of my home made hat (modelled by Jay)

Basically i i didnt choose this hat, Jet did last year when de just started humping my head one day whilst i was changing his bath.

I stitched some unsulation tube wrapped in electrical tape around the hat rim and siliconed the center so that the semen wasnt absorbed by the material, and it works great!

If i did make another id go for the nick fox design with the silicone cells (like a honey comb) surface, semen can sometimes be smeared off a smooth surface by the birds tale, but with the cells it stays put.

So basic principle of chatting up a male falcon (short version)

Lots of daily interraction either feeding on fist or flying and then lots of play thru moult, ball games ect.
The hat training, where you start to feed them onto the hat but vocalise a lot (Chup, Chup, Chup) until they start to hop on in anticipation.

At the right time of the year and with the right stimulus (as discussed) they will start to coppulate on the hat, best way to describe the act is that they spread their wings pressing their tail against the back of the ring until with a judder they deposit a small teardrop of semen onto the hat surface.

This si then collected using a special pharmacutical pipett (but a cappiliary tube will do)
Handling semen is another topic for another night and we can discuss the why's and were for's of lifespan, motillity, hybrid semen, fertility etc,etc.

ALso ******s first 2005 omlete, pretty in it?

[Wightwings]

great thread thanks Varmit.

I have a good friend living close by that lives breaths sleeps this with his birds.......BUT cani get info from him, can i hell........he almost a hermit with it all.

had some great birds from him tho.

look forward to some more posts all

[Varmint]

So back to getting the girls in condition?

There are some schools of thought that say only a full social imprint, kept in her chamber from her eyass year with lots and lots of social interraction will make a voluntary A.I bird.

I dont agree,

I dont even agree with the fact that you have to imprint the bird yourself or even have to use an imprint!

Like most things in our sport, the more you do something the better you both get be it hunting or whatever.

My friend currently breeds 6 pure peregrines a year by voluntary A.I with a Parent hatched and reared female Peregrine!

This bird was manned very well in her first year and flown daily, thru the moult she was fed daily on the fist in her chamber and interracted and played with every day. As soon as she was old enough and with the stimulus of other birds in adjacent chambers, she started to display sexually to him (bowing and calling) and by vocal and visual stimulus, food passing ect he was and is able to get her to stand naturally for him.

I think the moral of the story is that with the right visual and audiable signals at the right time of year most birds are capable of this kind of propogation, but obviously imprints are much easier.

To understand the behaviour and stimulus of an imprint falcon we must first look to the natural pair's courtship and interraction if we are going to try and simulate it?

So what is the normal courtship of falcons, and what do they do?

[The Late Lord Lucan]

There are some schools of thought that say only a full social imprint, kept in her chamber from her eyass year with lots and lots of social interraction will make a voluntary A.I bird.
I dont agree,
I dont even agree with the fact that you have to imprint the bird yourself or even have to use an imprint!
Like most things in our sport, the more you do something the better you both get be it hunting or whatever.
My friend currently breeds 6 pure peregrines a year by voluntary A.I with a Parent hatched and reared female Peregrine!

I have often wondered about this myself. My female peregrine bows down and calls to me (chup chup chup). The more interaction I have with her, the more she does it. She hasn't done it lately, as I have not flown her or spent much time with her. She is 100% PR.
She doesn't turn her back on me and do it, but then I guess it's early days, she's only coming up two years.
I've never responded much to this behaviour, as I wouldn't have a clue what to do.

Regards,
LLL.

[Varmint]

as I wouldn't have a clue what to do.

I bet you would Lucky, you just havent thought about it enough?

I would really like to get into this thread more but im a bit dissapointed with the response.

This whole thread will take a lot of work to complete with Pics and charts etc, but im not doing a "how to" thread, i want some input and thoughts?

[Varmint]

Well a few developments today!

Jet has started donating and has made two voluntary donations on the hat. (1 at 9.30 and the other at 5.30)

Both donations were used fresh on ****** who stood well for both inseminations.

She is due to lay tomorrow morning (egg3) and although these inseminations wont have caught egg 3 they will undoubtedly catch egg 4.
I may have been lucky with an earlier insemination for egg 3 but time will tell.

I checked both semen samples under the microscope and the latter was very active with a good sperm count and high motility.

My mate says that i can take digital pics with a small camera i have thru the eye piece of my micro scope, if it works ill post a pic of some Fresh Semen tomorrow.

[Saker-Clive]

Does anyone know the 'shelf-life' of the donated semen is? I know human jiz lives for upto 8 hours, so I'm guessing a birds wouldn't be that long.
Or like some species, can the female store it in her body for a later time????

[Varmint]

Undiluted Semen doesnt fare too well outside the donor and is effected by temperature and motion.

Most breeders use poultry exstender at a ratio of 50% to Semen.

Chilled, active sperm can still be seen after 48 hrs but optimum use is within 12 hrs.

Bit more to it than that thow cause it can be shocked if it is warmed back too quickly or made too hot.

This is a subject all on its own?

There is evidence of Fertalisation of an egg up to 9 days after 1 insemination?

One theory on hybrid insemination is that the wall of the oviduct has pockets into which semen can deposit to avoid evacuation by the travelling egg, if the semen is alien or different it can't fit in the pockets so gets evacuated, Interesting theory on why some hybrids are not as fertile? True? who knows.

[Sparrow Hawker]

Hi Varmint,

Great thread.

Incubation hasn't really been covered much in the past on the forum, how do you personally go about incubating BOP eggs, what do you use and if possible can you take us through the process you like to follow and how you go about it.

When the eggs finally hatch what happens in that very important 72 hours of a chicks life, how do you go about hand-rearing, what should people do and not do?

All The Best,

HH

[Saker Mad]

varmant this is a very intresting subject very facinating keep it up
thanks for the gret topic

[Varmint]

Incubation hasn't really been covered much in the past on the forum

Well get to the incubation when the time comes, but for know we are talking about natural courtship between birds.

So what do natural birds do to kick things off?

[Saker Mad]

at what age do you get a male to copulate on the hat

[Kevin Massey]

adrian,
great topic, i cant give any input cos i aint got a clue,

topics like this will make this a great site !!!

always reading
kev

[Bod]

Been following this article. Think I've understood it so far
So what do natural birds do to kick things off?

I would imagine that under natural conditions the male would secure an area. Fly around the area to attract a female (I appreciate they can't do this in captivity) call and display and then eventually the male feeds the female before she lets him do the biz.

[Varmint]

Ok, so the male selects the territory and displays his presence, or is it the pair?

Then courtship begins, based around the nest site, with food passing from male to female.

Highly vocal time and some aggression, almost frustration from the female to start annoyed at the males advances.

The male perseveres, and at the right time when both daylight time and hormone levels permit, she starts to display back.

Early coppulation in a pair generally takes place late on in the day, as the female seems to be more subdued and receptive in the late afternoon.

The act of coppulation is one of ultimate trust from the female as she completely lowers her defences by allowing the male to step on her back, often taking clumps of her nape (Neck) feathers in his beak for balance as he begins coppulation.

The females wings drop for balance her tail wips over to one side as the male eventually smears her vent (Bum) with his, depositing semen.

Agree everyone? anyone got anything else to add to that?

So it would be fair to assume that courtship between Imprint and Humans begins at the right time of year with the right stimulouse.

Harrasment by the human with constant attention, almost pushing her around the chamber, coupled with frequent food exchanges and vocalisation. The males in natural pairs also seem to taunt the females with food fly bys passing close to her perch with food, almost saying "Look at what a fine big feller i am?", i hav ebeen taunting my girls a lot just of late, offering food from outside the chamber and as they show interest, walking away in a similar principle.

At the moment i am going in approx 8 -10 times a day sometimes withfood to pass, sometimes just vocalising and bowing.

Im getting mixed responses, ****** we know what has happened but the others?

Rattler is always hungry and rushes over to see me (even with a crop) she has started bowing and is making a few scrapes around the nest site.
She has started to bow to me and is makeing some noise but i sense she is getting a little agressive at my close advances, i take this as a sign that its simply too early for her.

Mo, who is very nervy is settling down and is now coming to me for food passes, no where near as vocal as the others but she will Bow in the early evenings as i walk past, but just looks more nervouse if i go in?

Sh elayed on the 27th of March last year, so i am still a good month away yet, but i hope this intense interraction daily willpay dividends by the end of next month.

I took a few pics of ****** Displaying to me over her nest this evening, the little hussy!

She has laid egg no 3, and i again managed to inseminate her with some of Jet's semen again today, so fingers crossed for egg no 4 (and maybe 5 god willing?)

Ill post the pic in the morning.

Come on folks, this topic is getting a bit one sided, thanks for the input those of you that have been bothered, but this is a subject that would benefit from a bit of open discussion?

If you know nowt dont worry, ask, we wont think any less of you cause the idea is that we all learn and share our experiences! :wink:

[Varmint]

at what age do you get a male to copulate on the hat

Good question? i had a saker who sadly was kiklled whilst out at tame hack last year, that was jumping on my head and doing all the right things in Juv plummage?

Jet, My Gyr/Sak started semen production at 3, but 2 isnt uncommon, esp in Gyrs.

I've noticed the quantity and quality of semen improves a bit with age though?

[Varmint]

great topic, i cant give any input cos i aint got a clue,

Just ask Kev, this is an open topic and i want questions and answers from all camps.

I am a firm believer in the fact that you cant really get to know a species until you have had intimate knowledge of an imprint of that species! after all a PR will never respond or react naturally in your presence, so getting to know the imprint allows you to interpret the actions, response or noise of a PR much better.

It all narrows down the options when it comes to pushing those magic buttons in training eh?

[Varmint]

Here are a few pics.

You'll notice rattlers stance in early stage courtship.

****** standing with wings low over egg 3.

And ****** just getting way too excited after voluntary coppulation!

[Bubo]

I must admit my image of the hat was all wrong. i just thought of a rubber/silicone hat but having like a U shape rim (rather like a gutter round the head piece) thanks for the pictures varmint. it is so interesting. You have lovely birds!!
bubo

[Bod]

Do you do anything like trimming the vent feathers, but leaving the 'tickle feathers' as I call them (the long ones) to aid with fertilisation?
As a breeder of canaries I trim my birds vents each spring before they go down as i believe this helps the sperm to be smeared on the vent and thereby increasing the chances of insemination. I know we are talking AI here but has anyone ever tried it.
Also regarding AI is the sperm smeared on the vent or is it placed into the cloaca by way of a pipette?

[Varmint]

Hi Bod, Yes a lot of breeders trim the vent feathers of the male, but i didnt this year cuase i didnt have time and by the time i realised i needed semen, i didnt want to upset him?

For voluntary coppulation, the cloaca seems to nip like a hungry mouth so semen is squirted just onto the lips using a pipette, but for forced insemination the semen needs to be inserted via a Plastic rod inside, something that i would not reccomend unless you know exactly what you are doing?

Good points mate, more anyone?

[Bod]

Probably got a bit ahead of the thread with the last question but regarding
The male perseveres, and at the right time when both daylight time and hormone levels permit, she starts to display back.

Is it possible and viable to bring a bird into condition early by artificially increasing one or more of the stimuli needed to bring a bird into receptive mode, ie. increasing the daylight hours, which in turn promotes a reaction via the eye as far as I know, which in turn turns on the increase in hormones.

Sorry if I keep getting off the chronological order regarding AI.

[UKJay74]

well guys i can honestly say after witnessing this sight it is truly amazing the amount of time and affort adrian puts in with these birds and all of em are amazing. the hat is very strange but effective and the latest sample that was collected was highly active.

thanks for letting me visit adrian it was a couple of days i sure wont forget in a hurry :D

[Steve L]

Am i right in saying that in the wild the male only passes food to the female in flight in order to keep the nest site clean, and the only time food goes to the nest site is when there is young.

[Varmint]

I have seen many food passes with local wild birds both in the air and at the nest site, especially buzzards.

I am very lucky to have an Osprey nest less than 150yds from my house and i often see the male bring in food to the female early on, they both rise and fly round calling but the pass normally occurs on the nest?

Good point though, and i would make sense to keep the nest free from infections and attracting the unwanted attention of scavengers, perhaps it may be the case for certain species? anyone?

[Steve L]

I beleive it to be the peregrine falcon.

[Varmint]

Again Steve, i have witnessed peregrine food pass at the nest.

The time in question was in the late afternoon a female was standing over an egg (not sitting as clutch had just started) the male brought in a Blackbird!

He landed next to her and after much vocalisation passed the food, and hopped on her back whilst she had the food in her beak.

coppulation, then off again.

Maybe this was just a one off? but my captive pairs stash food all over the nest sites.

[Steve L]

How do you condition your falcons?

[Varmint]

In what way Steve? sexually?

[Steve L]

sorry adrian yes i meant sexually

[Adam Barrett]

I was also wondering that how would you make sure you falcon sees you as a potential partener and not as mummy?!

Also was is ment when people say that semen is stripped from the male?

Cheers

[Varmint]

Well i rather hoped we could discuss the natural courtship and compare the methods used in captivity?

But as im getting no takers?

Basically like anything else in this game, Time!

Do you want to hear about the Girls or the boys first?

"Stripping Semen"

Is done when a male bird is in condition (i.e coppulating naturally) the male is caught up and then abdominal pressure is applied effectivley squeezing semen to his vent where it can be collected.

This can have harmful physical and physcological effects on the bird if not done correctly, i personally would only do this as a very last resort.

[Bod]

One thing that has just popped into my mind :idea: Is do you have any problems with soft egg shells. I only have experience with Canaries etc but I add a teaspoon of crushed oystershell to eggfood on a daily basis on the build up to laying and it is thought that this helps to form good solid shells rather than thin and brittle ones. I suppose if an imprint female is fed a good varied diet ie quail, pheasant doc she would get the calcium from the bones. Just wondering if you add any supplements to the food when bringing the female into condition.

[Varmint]

Yes Bod i do, i use "Breeder supplement" from the birdcare company around 3 times a week but i also feed freshly killed young (2 weeks) Quail as well which have quite soft bones and good calcium absorbency.

Sounds strange but DOC are really quite good for this too!

[Bod]

Varmint
would you recommend 'breeder suppliment' to be given to non breeding birds say once a month or weekly through the moult?

Bit off thread re Ai but it would be interesting to know.

Cheers
Bod

[Sprout]

Can be a case of over supplementing calcium. Calcium is tightly controlled by a number of mechanisms and as long as a good balanced diet is supplied there should be no real need to supplement calcium. Bone is a living tissue, constantly being remodelled, with calcium being resorbed and deposited by different cells. If intake is high due to over supplementation this suppresses the calcium exchange and lowers the numbers of cells required to mobilise calcium from the bone so in times of emergency ie egg laying the body cannot respond quickly enough to this calcium depletion. This is a fiarly common problem with bitches soon after whelping.

[Bod]

That says it all thanks Sprout.
Basically good diet = good bones.

[Varmint]

Sprout is stomach churningly ugly! but does know a thing or two Bod!:lol:

[Bod]

Being a creature of beauty myself Adrian, say no more otherwise people will be asking for a signed photo :vom:
Anyone would think he is a vet with answers like that :wink:

[Varmint]

I think he rys to pass himself off as one:wink:

He hasnt told you about his first position when he qualified has he? He had a persian cat of his own which he took into the surgery to have her Spayed.

Being emotionally attached he asked another vet to do the deed, trouble was it had Bollcks! :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bod]

PMSL.
Whats the name of his practice?????????

[Varmint]

I think ill let him answer that one!

[Saker Mad]

may i ask a question here varment you say in a earlier post that the male does all the courtship well i have a female saker thats getting really annoyed with my male pere/saker who is not ready as yet
she is getting really nasty with him at the mo what would you do in this situation sorry to come of thread here
ian :oops:

[Varmint]

Sorry mate, you'll have to expand a bit on what is happening?

[Varmint]

Well i got two good donations today from Jet, the first i used on ****** fresh, the second i chilled, just in case?

****** has started to sit tight on egg no 3 and unless i got my dates mixed up? she i due to lay egg 4 anytime now.

For you Owl fans i also got a little surprize this morning?

I have an African Spotted called Measels who i have been flying in display for the past 4 years, each spring he makes a lovely scrape and displays to me.

Well this morning he was laid in the scrape? and you guessed it, he is a she :oops: and was very proud of her very first egg! 8)

I measels a female name? maybe measelina? melissa? oh ****** it :)

My natural pair of Luggers have finished their first clutch (4 eggs) and have started sitting tight, so ill leave them for 8 days, pull the clutch and artificially incubate in the hope that they will re cycle.

I've got birds scraping, food passing, fighting, copulating i cant keep up with it all? i really hope i survive this breeding season with my sanity in tact :?

[Shaun Byrne]

Silly question coming up V. If you use semen from different birds for each egg will this produce a clutch of different Hybrids??

[Will]

you guessed it, he is a she :oops:

Glad it's not just me that gets caught out then! That'll teach me for being tight-arsed about a twenty quid test fee! :)

[Varmint]

If you use semen from different birds for each egg will this produce a clutch of different Hybrids??

It can happen that way but normally one species sperm will be more successful dependant on what it put in to?

So for example put Saker semen and Peregrine Semen into a Peregrine at the same time and norm Peregrine will prevail.

[Shaun Byrne]

Surely each egg has to be fertilised in turn though? So the only sperm present would be the type you introduce at that time?

[Varmint]

No, it doesnt work like that, some sperm can live for up to 9 days in the Hostess, so it may be that there were spem present from egg no1 that fertilise egg no 3?

[Kumben]

Stupid question again, but what colour is the semen? Someone I heard about stripped his male bird and the stuff obtained had some black bits in it and he inseminated the female. Don't think there was a problem with the bird(s). Just want to know the facts please. I thought it must be well creamy coloured?

[Varmint]

No it tends to be a transparent cloudy v light browny, green ??

There may have been traces of feaces or urates in the sample you saw which is not good for forced AI but acceptable for voluntary insemination as the female has the ability to (for want of a better word) scrub out any inpurities before it enters the cloacha.

[Varmint]

Well im up to egg no $ with ****** now and the good news is that she is currently sitting at 2 fertile eggs!

I candled them last night and both showed vein development, so the plan is to let her sit until Monday and then take them for artificial incubation in the hope that she decides to re cycle.

So onto the subject of artificial incubation.

I have to add at this point that all though i will share with you what i know, all of my knowledge on this subject has been plajerised from other sources and i'd like to thank Richard Hill who has been a constant window for my incubation questions over the years.

So to start off with, we are looking at incubating falcon eggs that have had approx 6 days natural incubation by the parent bird, its allways a good idea to let the eggs be kicked off naturally as you always get a better percentage hatch this way rather than trying to incubate from day 1.

I use two different types of incubator, the reason for multiple incubators will become apparent shortly.

My main unit is a german machine which is becoming more and more popular with BOP breeders and is made by a company called "Grumbach".

It automatically turns the eggs and can be set up to turn them at whatever frequencies you want but it's always a good idea to have add odd number of turns in a 24 hour period, it means that the egg starts each day on it's opposite side.

The egg basically turn sthru 180 degree's and back again.

My machine has just been turned on in the last two days and is holding a stable temp of 37.3 degree's. Ideal temp is anywhere between 37 and 37.5.

I have fumigated it with Formalin in a ventillated room to kill any bacteria present and within 24 hrs it will be ready to recieve my first eggs. Additionally i have a natuiral pair of luggers who are sitting 4 eggs at the moment and i will also remove them on monday to join our project eggs.

So how do you successfully hatch a falcon egg?

Well weight is something that can help a lot!

The idea being that a fresh egg should lose somewhere between 12 and 15% of it's total weight over the entire incubation period of 32 days.
The parent birds naturally have the ability to do this but by artificial means it's much harder. Scotland is such a damp country that the air is norm around 40% humid anyway so i run my incubators dry but check humity with an hydrometer.

I make up a chart (see an old HH chart from last year) with a fresh egg weight on it and then plot two lines over 32 days (the incubation period).

One charting a 12% loss and the other a 15% loss.

The idea being that i weigh the egg every 3 days and monitor it's loss, if it crosses either line (out of the ideal zone) then it's either not losing enough weight, which means that my incubator or environment is too humid or it losses too much weight which means that my environment is too dry.

This is where the other machines come in! i run two Turn ex machines, one which is flooded with water and the other which containes a bed of Silica Crystals, these two additional machines help me maintain correct weight loss in the eggs and hopefully optimise my hatch rate.

[Bod]

Question time again Varmint. Out of a clutch of say 4 fertile eggs which were all succesfully hatched would you expect a 50/50 male/female ratio or is the sex of the bird random?

An even more stupid question! Can the incubation temperature affect the outcome regarding the sex of the hatched bods. In the wild the hen or cock bod can adjust the temperature for example by standing over the eggs if its is very very hot or sitting tight if it is cold. In an incubator I would imagine the temperature fluctuates very slightly.
I know bods and reptiles are years apart, but the outcome of say Bearded Dragon Eggs, Crocodiles etc can be affected by the temperature during incubation. Can't remember which way round it is but a mean difference of 1 degree Celcius can mean all females or all males.

[Saker-Clive]

How often should the eggs be turned either per hour or per 24hr period?

Thanks

[Varmint]

Ok Bods question first, yes the temperature of incubation will dictate the sex of the young, i always get this mixed up but im sure the warmer the incubation temp the more Males and the cooler females.

Good question Bod!

Right Clive turning!

In the old days when we turned by hand, we used to turn either 7 or 9 times a day, the automated machines turn approx 1 full 180o turn per hour.

[Saker-Clive]

Thanks V; do the machines constantly turn very slowly, so the embryo/yolk doesn't stick to the wall of the shell or does it turn them in one hit, every hour?
ie. half a turn every hour in one go or half a turn gradually and constantly over the hourly rate?

[Martin]

Richard hill ? whos he :lol:

[Varmint]

Clive the machines effectivley roll the eggs very slowly, we used to turn the eggs by hand thru 90o each time by hand 2 turns left and 2 turns right, but it drove you mad!

Richard Hill, is a guy who started in this sport about 15 yrs ago, in fact i was there when he bought his first common buzzard to be jessed at a friends (how time flies) but he has had the benefit of working with Peter Gill for the last 10 years and between them they really have developed some great AI, Incubation and hatch techniques, i think they produce close to 200 falcons a year now, and that means somewhere in the region of 250 eggs a season!

Tom Cade was really the Daddy of early falcon propogation and along with one or two unsung hero's developed domestic propogation, incl a Dairy Farmer from near Carlisle!

Funny story, i was at dinner with some American clients who own a large mansion here in Perthshire at the end of last summer and as you might imagine birds were pretty high on the topic of conversation. One of the guys turned around and said "this is so and so he is responsible for the salvation of the American Peregrine Falcon!", i though , here we go! but it turned out this fellow was the Guy from the Disney family who funded Tom Cade and the Peregrine fund when they first started to the tune of $10,000,000! What do you say to a guy who's done that?

[Martin]

Ha peter gill is he the moody ****** from yorkshire, he nearly smiled once :)

[Varmint]

Ah so you've met him Martin! :lol:

He wasnt always like that tho, he's been worn a bit thin over the years and i secretly think he now hates falconers! Pete's ok if you just agree with everything he says and dont get in his bad books.

He's done me more than a few favours, so i can't complain. 8)

[Shaun Byrne]

[quote="Varmint"
funded Tom Cade and the Peregrine fund when they first started to the tune of $10,000,000! What do you say to a guy who's done that?[/quote]



Lend us a tenner! lol!!

[Gaz]

Your round pal :mrgreen: :drinkers:

[Varmint]

Tried that one too Shaun, didnt work!

[FalconMews]

Thanks for the glowing report on my happy go lucky outgoing personality !

As to who is Richard Hill ? He has hatched more falcon eggs, produced at a privatly run project, than any one else in the UK over the last ten years. 200 was surpassed only 3/4 of the way through the season. He has been working closely with Brinsea, Grumbach and Lyons of the USA in product research and evaluation on various incubation systems. But as he does not choose to advertise the fact (results always speak louder than words) he is happy with his unaminity.

Keep up the reporting Adrian and i don't dislike all falconers just ---

[Saker71]

how to put the female into conditaion and when you start with her i have a 10 month old female imprint peregrine i know it is too early but i want to know how you train them so when they are in the right age stand for you i go everyday 3 or 4 times in her aviary and play with her and i croos my hand undner the tail so she get use me touching her there but she does not like it
shall i keep doing that or stop

[Varmint]

Well to be honest Saker this is something im struggling with myself?

I have asked everyone i know over the last few years the same question but find that there is a gaping hole about the knowledge of females and condition?

Even Nick Fox's video goes into great detail about Males but females next to nothing?

I finally cracked it this year with a bird that i imprinted myself and flew in display for the last 4 years and the reason i think i cracked it was just time spent with her.

I didnt try to push my attentions on her too soon, just lots of food passing, playing and attention, when she started coming into condition she almost asked me to do it, by coming up to me? i mistook it for aggression at first but i do think there is a certain element of aggresive interraction involved in falcon courtship?.

Peter would be far better to comment on this than me as he's managed it with dozens of birds in dozens of ways.

Im trying real hard with an imprint Saker that i bought in a couple of years ago, this year i am finger feeding her and calling a lot. She has been very aggresive even grabbing me and running up my back a couple of times but over the last few days has calmed down a lot.

I can't touch her in any way on her body yet, but i can stand right next to her whne she's on the scrape and i can put my hands at her feet without any sign of fear or aggression now.

Im just hoping that when she starts coming into full condition (which shouldnt be for a month yet!) she will just click!

Here's hopeing? :wink:

[Saker Mad]

Sorry mate, you'll have to expand a bit on what is happening?


well my female saker is desperate to breed and is very agresive to males she trys to bully them into breeding she was chasing him around the avery and he was screeming like a pig because she was trying to get him with her feet lucky enough he was a bit quicker than her so he was getting out of her way but she is still trying to terror ise him is this normal behavior for them they have been together since november with no problems they have been sat together great for months now with no agresion ? its just been the past week or so its been abit hairy she calls and bows at him at feed time but he doesnt want to know yet she gets peed of with him when she has to get her own dinner

[Varmint]

?? maybe he' s Gay or just not sufficiently in condition yet.

Try to give him more opportunity to food pass by multiple feeding? or maybe get him more excited with freshly killed quail?

I have a similar prob with a natural pair of Peregrines, she food passes to him? then lays two clutches of 4 eggs, all infertile every year!

[Saker Mad]

icannot get fresh quail at the mo my sorces are dried up but hes hoping i find another source

[Varmint]

Also just thought? are you sure she's getting enough to eat? silly question i know, but sounds a lot like begging behaviour too???

[Saker Mad]

they are fed a average of 10-12 doc a day plus rabbit qauil and pheasent the male eats a max of 5 a day so i think she is getting enough

[Saker71]

by the way can you mix feeding them like can you give them quail and DOC in the same day

[Saker Mad]

i do that a few times a week they were on quail 3 times a week when the stocks were good i give 2 quail plus up to 6 doc in a mixed feed when i feed just doc they get 10-12 a day

[Varmint]

We all know variety is the spice of life! but the fresher the food the better as afr as im conserned.

I started breeding Quail to overcome the supply probs and i find that the males go crazy for freshly killed ones, dare i say it almost still wriggling? (and i mean this, i dispatch them by breaking their necks and then introduce them to the chamber when still wriggling, it really breaks up the monotony of chamber life for the birds and gives them a buzz)

This gets them really excited and the females generally join in the excitement, which culminates in the pair bond!

V V V important to check the health of the quail project regularly cause poorly quail lead to poorly Falcons!

[Bubo]

For you Owl fans i also got a little surprize this morning?

I have an African Spotted called Measels who i have been flying in display for the past 4 years, each spring he makes a lovely scrape and displays to me.

Well this morning he was laid in the scrape? and you guessed it, he is a she :oops: and was very proud of her very first egg! 8)

I measels a female name? maybe measelina? melissa? oh ****** it :)

:?
I have only just seen this (been away with flu) that is really sweet and it must have been a great surprise. I also think measles is just fine even for a girlie :lol:

[Saker71]

Varment could you give us an idea how to breed quail and how many we can start with any info will be great

[Varmint]

I think there are several threads on this?

Ok just a quick over view!

A good laying flock of 10 females and 2 males will get you started, great place for them is in the base of your greenhouse, esp if concrete floor?

Heat lamp on in winter, and collect eggs daily, plenty of clean water( they drink a lot) and chick crumbs which can be supplemented with additional Vit A, C and E.

Collect eggs daily, which will store for up to 7 days (provided they are turned thru 180o back and forth each day) i put my eggs into a Octogan 20 with incubator turned off but turner on, saves the trouble of turning them! then when full i incubate the eggs at 37.6 degree's for 16 days, flood incubator on day 17 and hey presto, hatch and chicks!

You should expect a hatch rate of approx 75%

Rear chicks under heat lamp for 5 weeks on same diet and you have got 5 oz food packs. Rear for 10 weeks and you got 9-10 oz food packs.

My octogan 20 holds about 75 quail eggs, so i get approx 100-120 quail a month from this machine.

Really is simple as that!

[OutOnAWing]

[quote="Bubo"][quote="Varmint"]For you Owl fans i also got a little surprize this morning?

I have an African Spotted called Measels who i have been flying in display for the past 4 years, each spring he makes a lovely scrape and displays to me.

Well this morning he was laid in the scrape? and you guessed it, he is a she :oops: and was very proud of her very first egg! 8)

I measels a female name? maybe measelina? melissa? oh ****** it :)

hi varmint, how about mumps,spring is in the air our bengals are on 4 eggs and this is her second cluch.also our lanners are getting rather vocal at the mo,just got to wait for the european barns and tawnies to start,it could b a good year(,touch wood) :!: :!:

[Saker71]

I know this out of the subject what is the bigest kind of peregrine and in what wiegh they fly and what is the black peregrine

[OutOnAWing]

if you luv peres then try and get a copy of emma fords peregrine,lovely book. i think the largest is the peale's(sigh,drool)at 1lb 13oz to 3lb 8oz and the black pere is prob the black shaheen/indian pere (falco peregrinus peregrinator (or terminator if u like :lol: ))
god i luv peres but i cant do one justice,sigh.

tina

[Varmint]

You guys need to get a room! :lol:

Well back on thread, i removed ******s eggs today which she has been sitting tight for around 6 days and whilst i was at it! i also took away the first clutch from my Luggers.

The Luggers was no picnic and both parents showed their commitment to defend their nest well.

Two large humans and one large dustbin lid prevailed (but only just?) as the eggs were removed safely.

The pic below is 2 hybrid eggs (on left) and 4 lugger eggs, i might add at this point that the hybrid eggs were this clean when removed from the scrape where as the luggers had to be cleaned.

Both Luggers and Lanners are really, really dirty around their nest and eggs, but as with all things in nature, there mustr be a reason?

I theorise that perhaps both species being the predators of small passerines, the increased insect life around the nest site may encourage prey species in closer for a quick meal???

[OutOnAWing]

you ought to try a crash helmit, luggers are fisty birds aren't they,bless them.whats the hybrids?
p.s. you dont hav to tell me about luggers/lanners being dirty you only hav to clean their block , turn round and they've s**t on them.

[Varmint]

whats the hybrids?

Read the thread, it's 8 pages telling you just what they are and where they come from :roll:

This is a thread on A.I and incubation

[Hawkmaster]

AND an absolute masterpiece it is too! Well done Ade.

[OutOnAWing]

very nice looking birds, hope u hav a good season

[OhMyGod]

Hi varmint, I'm asking a question for a friend of mine trying to inseminate pere/saker wich black gyr.

He has 3 pere/saker age 1, 2 and 3. Last year all eggs wer infertile of the two birds which were then age 1 and two.

What we would like to know is, are pere/saker too outcrossed to be inseminated with gyr, or could it be that they were too young. Any info would be greatly appreciated

[Varmint]

Sorry OMG, are you saying he had a 1yr old hybrid Lay eggs?

The general consensus of opinion is that female Pere/Sakers aren't particularly fertile birds, by that i mean that they dont tend to be that easy to actually inseminate successfully?

A friend last year put semen in daily to a volunatry 4 yr old Pere/Sak and she layed a total of 9 eggs.

He caught only one?

Prob as in Smaller Passerines, some hybrids are much less fertile than others? natures way of slamming the door on strange hybrids?

[OhMyGod]

Probably not varmint, probably just went through the motions with her in a pen. I only met the guy a while back but seems keen to breed this tribrid.

I think what I really meant was, would these birds be more succesful if bread with a different species..... say pere or saker rather than gyr. or should it be the same fail rate.

I been reading the AI thread on goshawks and it seems natural copulation produced 7 out of 8 eggs, when AI produced nothing.

Am I right in saying this is generally the case with falcons then aswell?

So to get a breeding program going properly for this tribid it may be worthwhile trying PR pere/saker as as they are very infertile.

I appologise for all the questions on your thread, also I know you're not god, just wondered what you thought.

[Martin]

Goshawks are quite easy to breed with Ai, if you have semen on tap, gos semen does not travel well, and soon dies quickly, Falcon semen looks different under a scope, much slower that gos semen, and will travel well and lasts longer in the fridge, so i have been told, :o

[Hawkmaster]

How long will it last? Gos semen that is, well all of it really?

[Martin]

How long will it last? Gos semen that is, well all of it really?

Best used fresh but can be used 48 hrs later, it depends on volume of sperm and the quality of semen, semen needs to be warmed up before use, when stored at low temps it becomes docile and many think its dead,
but its not, :?

[Hacker]

Varmint,
Is there going to be an update on this thread at all.
Fascinating subject and info!

[Talon]

that was great stuff.its good to read something that you can be of help to ppl.
instead of the normal load of b*llocks put up on here.

[Falcons7]

Hi Varmint,
i find that it is the other way on.I can get her eggs firtile (Bucket) but although have hatched a couple I find they die in the shell early on or sometimes near pip.




Sorry OMG, are you saying he had a 1yr old hybrid Lay eggs?

The general consensus of opinion is that female Pere/Sakers aren't particularly fertile birds, by that i mean that they dont tend to be that easy to actually inseminate successfully?

A friend last year put semen in daily to a volunatry 4 yr old Pere/Sak and she layed a total of 9 eggs.

He caught only one?

Prob as in Smaller Passerines, some hybrids are much less fertile than others? natures way of slamming the door on strange hybrids?

[PeregrinesUK]

How do you find the fertility with the Barbary x lugger ? i have a P/R pere x lugger that is desperate to breed called and chupeds on to my tiercels all lest year when ever in sight and i think a 3/4 pere 1/4 lugger hybrid would be perfect hunting/ clearance hawks
michael

[Varmint]

I have a barbray Lugger female that stands perfectly, but sadly no semen so early in the year?

This thread is certainly bringing skeletens out of the cupboard, "Bucket" imagine someone telling you your dead Daughter was still alive? You still trying to pass that bird off as one you trained yourself?

Get on with it folks im tired and bored with the post's on this thread?

All the experts are here ask their advice?

[Falcons7]

Hey if you want to dish out a dig at me then No Adrian ,just the guy who developed her from a girl who only knew baggies and released game ,who was very checky and produced moderate pitches into a huge pitching wild grey partridge and duck (not mallard though) hawk and what about 300ft Alcomy ,hows her phesie killing coming along poorly I bet without your rich benifactor supplying your baggies.You forget I know you most on here don't.I was going to offer you peregrine season for the coming year but **** with that ,use your own ,oh and hope the eyases heads don't turn out talking as much bullshit as there dads!!


I have a barbray Lugger female that stands perfectly, but sadly no semen so early in the year?

This thread is certainly bringing skeletens out of the cupboard, "Bucket" imagine someone telling you your dead Daughter was still alive? You still trying to pass that bird off as one you trained yourself?

Get on with it folks im tired and bored with the post's on this thread?

All the experts are here ask their advice?

[SakerYZF]

This thread is one of the most interesting for a while!
I've got an imprint saker in his first season ,hes turning out to be a real star,
I understand its early days with him but about what age can i expect him to donate ( if at all) is there anything i can do to encourage him?
Hope you do well with your birds keep us all posted!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Hey if you want to dish out a dig at me then No Adrian ,just the guy who developed her from a girl who only knew baggies and released game ,who was very checky and produced moderate pitches into a huge pitching wild grey partridge and duck (not mallard though) hawk and what about 300ft Alcomy ,hows her phesie killing coming along poorly I bet without your rich benifactor supplying your baggies.You forget I know you most on here don't.I was going to offer you peregrine season for the coming year but **** with that ,use your own ,oh and hope the eyases heads don't turn out talking as much bullshit as there dads!!
He cant help it. You try and be civil with him and he just cant resist trying to knock or put you down. Must have a big ego problem, I feel sorry for him in a way!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

This thread is one of the most interesting for a while!
I've got an imprint saker in his first season ,hes turning out to be a real star,
I understand its early days with him but about what age can i expect him to donate ( if at all) is there anything i can do to encourage him?
Hope you do well with your birds keep us all posted!
A semen donar just dosent happen over night. Realisticaly plan on about third breeding season. But that means flying him keeping up with his socialisation, trying to interect with him in the breeding seasons leading up to copulation occuring (Preferably in a pen). Introduce the hat that you will be using during the breeding season this season and let him accustomize this with breeding behaviour. Food pass, chup, and whatever you do dont push him further than he is willing too go. You may get lucky and have him mount the hat before true copulation occurs. My Jerkin for instance mounted the hat in his first year only twice, but he did it.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Is there anybody out there willing to start this thread again next season? The amount of interest sparked was great, though it didnt get followed through.

[Falcons7]

I would, as long as we're not talking about tri-breds ,luggers etc. ,pointless falcons.
I use 3 tiercel peregrine hat birds ,I will if needed discribe there size ,ability in the field as I will with the falcons.The jerkin will probably be a season from copulating but he was a perv in his first season last year on the hat as much as you could be botherd and he was on a shelf perch.
Hopefully I will have another falcon coming on line this coming season and hopefully I will imprint up to 4 others next year.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Sounds good, it would be great to follow right through the season. Theres quite a coincidence in the males your working with, as Im also working with three tiercels, and a Jerkin.

[Kentish Falconry]

Sounds good, it would be great to follow right through the season. Theres quite a coincidence in the males your working with, as Im also working with three tiercels, and a Jerkin.

Hi I would be interested in continueing this thread if you guys think I am qualified enough to join in and yes lets keep away from Tribrids and attempting to breed from them.
Now if we stick to Peregrines, Gyrs and Gyr x Pere with a few more pure species then I'm up for it but don't wake me up untill the end of February

[Kentish Falconry]

by all means continue this or start a new one as long as it stays friendly should be a great read i realy want to learn more about AI

Andy.........

Come down here then sonny boy and we will show how AI works, bring your own lipstick though

[Kentish Falconry]

lol i might just take you up on that after xmass


Andy.......

You're welcome M8 and we won't even make you dress up like a Chick(en)

Could add more but the Mods keep removing parts of my Text lol

How's the Head now?

[UKJay74]

Hi I would be interested in continueing this thread if you guys think I am qualified enough to join in and yes lets keep away from Tribrids and attempting to breed from them.
Now if we stick to Peregrines, Gyrs and Gyr x Pere with a few more pure species then I'm up for it but don't wake me up untill the end of February
thank god you mentioned about some other pure species and not just gyrs and peregrinesi would be very interested in the way it turns out

[PeregrinesUK]

looking forward to the new thread... the tiercels will be starting to show condition now are they? Have any of you tried to bring a tiercel into condition early by manipulating the amount of daylight available by using a full UV light thinking for pere x saker production

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Never needed to as they come in around the same time anyway.

[Altai]

Again Steve, i have witnessed peregrine food pass at the nest.

The time in question was in the late afternoon a female was standing over an egg (not sitting as clutch had just started) the male brought in a Blackbird!

He landed next to her and after much vocalisation passed the food, and hopped on her back whilst she had the food in her beak.

coppulation, then off again.

Maybe this was just a one off? but my captive pairs stash food all over the nest sites.

The males often have to put the food on a ledge away from the female, then call to her and fly off before she can nail him. As she gets more into condition she becomes less aggressive and more approachable ( could be talking about my misses!!!). she will get to the stage where she can be quietly sitting near the male and harrasses him to go to a stash and fetch her some food (females are all the same--and they say the way to a mans' heart is through his stomach!!).
Altai.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

We forgot to start this off again Terry!!!

[Falcon911]

I have a couple of questions for you both then please to get things going - my imprint Tiercel Peregrine (05 bird) is jumping onto the hat (as soon as he see's it), down on his hocks, vent feathers dropped, very excited for about three or four seconds and then stands up. All the time he is making the right noises, even when standing. I then throw him a chick on a perch and he gets the food. His ledge displays are getting better including food passes etc. I am pleased he is doing this at his early age but will he develop the treading/copulation bit with age or is there something I should be doing?
I have a female also and wonder what sort of age she should start showing signs for AI? She is also an 05 bird but appears very immature still. She has made some 'adult' noises but doeas not seem at all interested in a nest scrape or eggs if I give her any. Now I can probably hear you all laughing and saying what does he expect from her at that age but I am new to AI (breeding with parent reared birds since 1983) and just wondered what I should be seeing at this time if all is going well?
Thanks
Rgds
Andy

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Youve got next to no chance of either of these birds doing anything this year mate. Impressed youve got the male going that far. I would stop with the throwing chicks to get him off the hat though. PM me if you think I can help.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Ive got ten fertile eggs so far this season. Eleven if you count the one that died at hatch. Hopefully I'll get some more as my Peregrine has only just started laying.

[Rex06]

does anyone have pictures (or movie) from putting the semen in the female
want to do ai with my female kes but she is imprint and attacks every other bird of prey witch ways less than 500 gr :)
(i know its a delicate job not sure i will do it though)
greetzz

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Best I can do is a standing female as I normally have my hands full!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

I deposit the semen steadily onto the inner edge of the lip of the cloaca. This is normally being sucked inside as the cloaca pulses and draws the semen in.

[Rex06]

ah thanks alot still not sure if i will try it 8-) seems to hard lol cu

greetzzz

[Shaun Byrne]

Now your back Adrian, is there any chance of starting where you left off?:supz:

[Finnish]

Pmsl.:)

[SnakeHuts]

Pmsl.:)

lee p*ssing yourself has always been one of your problems according to Guy and Don.....:lol:

[Finnish]

Kev I would not listen to them that much.

[Hawkmaster]

Now your back Adrian, is there any chance of starting where you left off?:supz:
It would be great to have this one continue!8-)