Need advice

[ColdZero]

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[HawkMan69UK]

im no top dog trainer but having a working dog is not a part time thing just like falconry the dog needs to be trained properly or you will either end up with a bird attatched to the face of your dog or a dog with a bird in its mouth i would suggest going on a basic dog obidiece school and try and track down a gundog breeder trainer in your area ,,im not having a go but why only a couple of years as gun/falconry dogs are not fully trained and confident till there at least 2/3 years old ..i have bought a fully trained springer but i still had to get her use to the bird and visa versa..dont want to sound like i know it all but im sure there are far more experinced dog handlers on this forum that will tell you the same you will only get out of the bird/dog what you are willing to put into it ...good luck try this link to get some tips /video http://www.adviegundogs.co.uk/FirthProductions.htm#Training

[Varmint]

I have trained several breed for falconry use over the yeas but wouldnt class myself as a professional by any stretch of the imagination?

I am currently running a GSP daily who i got to re home at 7mnths old and was a total thug, he is now 14 mnths old and is doing pretty dam well.

Firstly, if you want the dog to hunt, there has to be something in it for the dog? it isnt enough that it is well bred, it needs a reason to run and crash thru cover in search of game?

A professional trainer friend changed my life with working dogs the day he told me to let my dogs chase rabbits?

I thought , oh my god! i dont want him to chase game?

But the fact was that the more i let him chase rabbits, the more he liked the game and the more he looked for them, after 100's of unsuccessful chases he then got smart and started stalking them, and with some calming started pointing them?

In the past i had always tried to put the brakes on my dogs too early, and this was something completly alien to me, but it worked.

I eventually stopped him chasing after the flush by running him with a lite 20ft creance attached to his collar and dragged behind which i could gently take hold of when on point and dropp him with a sharp tugg on flush along with the stop whistle.

This dog is now truly superb, and eats the ground using the wind well, loves his job and rareley misses anything.

I would say that he is prob my most important working tool, and i cant imagine life without him?

One big point you might have taken in from all this is the fact that i have spend hundreds of hours on this dog? at 2 yrs i would say that he will have reached maybe 3/4 of his potential.

There is no such thing as a self training dog, in fact training a dog prob takes twice the work of training a bird, maybe more?

Start your pup off with the basics, coming back on the whistle, which can be done by feeding him in different places every day and calling him with a re call whistle, to come and get it?

if you want to do a daily dairy thread im sure there are many people here who will keep you right from there.

Dont be surprized if you have more fun with your dog, then you do with your Hawk?

Good Luck

[ColdZero]

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[Colohen]

My Father allways said "a dog is only as smart as it's master"

[Chris S]

train it when you put the hawk down to moult,just take him out with you for now get him used to the bird flying around him,also how old his he?because if hes a pup he will be to young to start any proper training untill he is at leased 12month old if not longer gsp like all hpr breeds take ages to grow up, so as varmint said let him enjoy himself(be a pup)chase rabbits.i have a two year old weimaraner bitch that is going well now after a lot of hard work and two months ago i got a 12 week old gsp pup so iv got my hands full at the moment,but good luck

chris dont advise folk when you obviously have no idea about it yourself ........

[Chris S]

AND YOU ARE?

prey drive is what you need in a dog !!!! that comes in the breeding !!!! .

[Chris S]

maybe but no two dogs are the same and you get good and bad in every litter yes the breeding helps but i know people shooting men and falconers who have bought dogs from top breeders and have trained good working dog before but have had dogs that are not any good for what they want.a breeder i know who has been breeding GSP for twenty years for bomb and drug work says that in every litter only half are ok for what he wants.

[Varmint]

prey drive is what you need in a dog !!!! that comes in the breeding !!!! .

Whilst i would agree to a certain exstent William, it's not always the case, Jonny M has a Collie, pure sheepdog from working lines which i would put up against 1/2 the pointers i've seen for hunting and "Yes" pointing!

Last year i gave away a well bred 4 yr old GWP that simply had no interest in hunting of any kind and i spent 1000's of hours on her!.

Chris is only trying to offer a bit of help and assistance to a newbie, dont dis him for that, im the worlds worst for jumping on folks on here, but on this occasion maybe you are being a bit hard?

His advise is sound, but Coldzero is young and will learn that you only get out what you put in.

Tell us what dogs you have William and share some of your experiences in training?

[Goran]

50% is in breeding, and other 50% is in what you put in a dog (training).

what makes the collie work when hes in the feild herding sheep !! could it be prey drive ? enyway at the moment ime training a fell terrier to work bush and mark warrens she is showing good potential i run her long side my deer hound greyhound and they make a good team together so the next step for her training will be one to one with me and the dog brushing up on the basics and stoping her dead in her tracks after a flush ! if she keeps progressing the way she has done so far then she will be plesure to work with next year in the feild ! ive also got a border terrier kc reg the same age as the fell and for a terrier ime disapointed but since they say borders take a wee bit longer to get fired up she will get all the time she needs from now till next seson !!!! i think that folk who fly short wings make the mistake of going for the pointer breeds ie gsp and the like ! but in all honestly for the type of quary and ground most austringers fly on the wee breeds like the jrt and fell terriers are best sueted also the teckl which ive never ownd but seen are good wee dogs ! only down side on the wee dogs is they get in yer feet sometimes and somtimes you end up flat on yer arrss lol !!!!!!!! i dont see the point of working a pointer under a short wing ! if you want me to explane why not then i will ..........

[Gaz]

chris dont advise folk when you obviously have no idea about it yourself ........
Just for the record,i know of Chris,and i know people who"ve paid £50 a week for 3 months to get there dogs "trained" by smartie people,seen the resaults...........Chris will do mine :!:

[Varmint]

I'd love to here the reasons you feel that there is no point working a GSP under a short wing William?

Im a big terrier fan myself mate, esp JRT but need a breed that is a bit more dynamic and multi facited, working a variety of quarries for a variety of Birds, and my GSP fits the bill perefectly.

I am 150% happy with this choice of breed to do the job he does 7 days a week.

I have trained and used a Teckel in the past and although a great tracker and marker he was a bit hot headed, maybe just this one dog? he's now living and working with a stalker in Glen Llyon who really rates him on the deer and i have a Bitch Coming in from Chambord in France in May who will be going to the same home!

Horses for courses.

Have you ever trained or worked a HPR breed/ Pointer William?

[Jack Merlin]

i dont see the point of working a pointer under a short wing !

William S,

I think you answered your own question. It is a matter of what type of ground you hunt. I fly a male gos over a brace of English pointers and keep a spaniel in close for flushing. But I am flying forestry ground that is planted with young trees. I need a dog that will range out a bit and hold a point. A small flushing dog like a terrier or a spaniel would be a complete waste of time. On the other hand, if I was hunting hedge rows, I'd probably opt for one of these breeds. Horses for courses.

Jack

Have you ever trained or worked a HPR breed/ Pointer William? yes i have ! i had two gshp one a gave away due to lack of work for it at the time and the other i had got stolen this dog was a good worker but out in the feild she would only work for a half hour and that was her she would just pis about and lost all intrest in the job ! i put that down to breeding and the amount of (ch) that was in her line ! ch as in show champ ! the sire was german import a pure black dog !!!! the land i fly my birds on is prety rough ground and there is a lot of wooded ereas so thats why i prefer the wee dogs !!!! now when you run your dog on open ground with a short wing how much ground to you give the quary once the dog is on point ! do you order the dog to flush at lets say 50 yards or do you walk right upto the dog then comand it to flush!giving the quary only a few yards which in mop isnt fare play !!!! eny way i leave it there for the mo cos ive goto go (Scheme a living ) ;) ...........

[Varmint]

Well if we all flew our birds as you suggest i would agree that it wouldnt be too sporting.

I for one practise "StepBacks" meaning that if i get a point in the open i start off standing so many feet back, if i get success then i go some many feet back again on the next flight and so on thru out the season.

Obviously wind and terrain have apart to play but in general i find the flights i get are very sporting and last saturday took a successful flight from a 150yd away point!

I also use a pointing Collar, made by Dogtra, which beeps when the dog stands still on point. This devise is superb in cover where the dog can't always be seen and the birds are even starting to recognise the noise to mean dinner may be served!

Some of the best shortwing flights can be manufactured with the use of a pointing dog allowing you to build both confidence and experience by your relative position to the dog when it flushes.

It's not just about the flush or the kill, its about the flight! and if you have used your GSP's in the past in the manner you suggest i can see why you now use Terriers? Most of the best quality hawking is done upstairs first, and i dont mean your bed room mate!

I will continue to use a breed of dog which gives me and my birds the type and variety of flight that I desire be it a short 5ft flight and kill for a young bird or a 150yd wide flush for a more experienced bird.
The same dog can then move onto open ground in search of game for my longwing if required, truly a dog for all occasions!

Enjoy your terrier hawking mate! and i will enjoy my flights with a GSP.

Viva la differance :yawinkle:

[Jack Merlin]

Spot on Varmint! I agree with every word you say.

[GoneHawking]

Varmint, I to use a pointing dog collar that beeps when the dog is on point and it works really well and is a real help in cover, I myself have flown my Gos over a english pointer and currently my Spar and the Peregrine x Prarie, and it suits me just fine thanks.

[Varmint]

quote]I to use a pointing dog collar that beeps[/quote]

What make is your one, Hawkin?

[GoneHawking]

Varmint, Not sure, it comes from the states and is bright orange, I'm at work at the moment but I will try and check when I get home.

[Jack Merlin]

I to use a pointing dog collar that beeps

That sounds a great idea! Half my ground is infested with rose bay willow herb. If the dog goes more than 30 yards, it is impossible to see. So I stick to the other half, which is a pity.

[Falcon]

One well known rabbiter uses a GSP to stalk deer and puts a bell on his dog, when it's on point the bell doesn't ring!!! thought it was worth a mention

[Jack Merlin]

Yep, I have used that and it works quite well. But a sound when the dog stops moving might be even more useful.

I can use either of my old English pointers for deer work and they are excellent. They will point either dead or living deer.

A cheap telemetry system (without much range) would also be handy. I think the Scandinavians use them for deer hunting.

[Jack Merlin]

I forgot to mention there is one problem with the bell in my experience!

When it stops ringing, is your dog on point or is it over the hill and out of earshot chasing a deer?<vbg> You tend to have to listen for the bell all the time and it's when it's stopped you need to find the dog! How do you locate a bell that doesn't ring?? It works, but not all that well.

[Varmint]

Well Jack the collars are pretty pricey, but worth every penny in my opinion.
Id be happy to show you mine in action next time your on a food run? :wink:

[Jack Merlin]

Hope we can meet up anyway.