What are the advantages?

[ColdZero]

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[ColdZero]

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[UKJay74]

cold from what i have hear4d a redtail is a pure hunting machine training can take longer with them than harrises and they are from what i have heard not harder but different to train :S wierd way to put it yes but that is the extent of my knowledge of them :D

[Chris S]

this is the first seson with a harris after five with a red tail, and it is very laid back hawking but makes a nice change.red tails get better each year as long as you put the time and effort in and once they are fit and hunting give me a red any day very aggressive hunters will take on anything that moves,mine is fine with me but can be a bit funny with other people,that is the only draw back i have found with reds is that they can be very tempramental. :)

[ColdZero]

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[Chris S]

if your are getting a older bird i would ask to see it being flown,as regards to the sex of the bird my male is quite big he flys at 2lb6oz and has taken all thing up to hares so no but some females fly at this weight so it depends on how big the adults are as they very alot

[Shaun Byrne]

If you can get a copy of the Road To Bakersfield DVD it will open your eyes to the capabilities of RTs. Ever seen one stooping in vertical from 200ft and whacking a 6lb Jack Rabbit?......... You will!!

[Falconer]

James
I was going to get a female red,
But decided to stick with the harris, and gain more experience and knowledge, of falconry before tackling a red-tail.
( Because of there unpredictability and power) .

[ColdZero]

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[Shaun Byrne]

Why did you get rid of the FHH mate?

[ColdZero]

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[Varmint]

This Kid cant make up his mind what he wants to do Shaun:shock: :lol:

I cant keep up with your threads Zero?, first you cant get ot to fly game, then you can fly game everyday, then you cant go into your flying field for Bull, then you got 1000's acres.

Your driving me nuts :rolleyes:

The ownership of a bird of prey requires a lot of thought and planning, it's not like changing your socks!

Why on earth would you want to buy an older trained bird? if you have never trained a red before surely you would want to experience the training first hand? and then see the bird develope thru subsiquent seasons!

Im sorry Zero, i will help any genuine person i can, but you are now starting to sound like a messer??? :roll:

Sorry to sound rude mate, but look back thru your own threads and see it from our point of view?

[Shaun Byrne]

Sorry CZ but I got to agree with Varmint. I was trying to get there a bit more diplomatically but we're there now.
The way you post and the questions you ask make you sound like a complete novice. If you are, just say so and get some good advice.
Finally, the fact that you have no idea what killed your FHH really bothers me. Any decent vet would have given you SOME idea, even if it was just to rule out the kick, so all I can think is that you didn't take her to a vet!!! This is one time when I hope someone is Bulling!!

[ColdZero]

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[ColdZero]

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[ColdZero]

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[Shaun Byrne]

WOW! Steady on! No one said you were an idiot!
When you're on an open forum it is sometimes dificult to get your point across. I apologise if I've got the wrong end of the stick and you know more than you appear to.

I'm still bothered about the vet thing though and this is what rings alarm bells with me when you are considering buying another bird.

[ColdZero]

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[Coedhirion]

If training a red is the same as training a harris, theres nothing more i can learn.......Oh dear !!!! come back in 10 years and see if you still believe that. Sorry ColdZero but no one will ever no it all, and after putting your bird down to moult you have to start all over again any way. OK it is a lot quicker and the birds learnt a lot from the year before.. Hopefully if you get it all correct its learnt good things....if not you've got alot of extra work to do !!! :)

[Varmint]

Right, i hope everything is sorted and i can start again on this forum.

With pleasure mate! now what are your plans for the future, what do you want to achieve and how you gonna get there?

[Falconer]

James
Ya defiantly going with a red then ??

[ColdZero]

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[Hawkmaster]

Do you still have the FHH?

[Falconer]

O.k m8 if thats what ya want, Go for it.
But i don't think we will be flying together, as I'm sure you are aware reds and harrises don't get on.
But good luck with ya red anyway and maybe i'll pop over and see ya fly it.
Kev.

[ColdZero]

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[Shaun Byrne]

Oh dear!!

[Hawkmaster]

Nothing is cast in stone in falconry!

Firstly I have never seen or trained a bad RT, but I have flown males and female RTs together and also a male RT and both sexes of HHs at once.

I have also flown a Ferru, and RT together while out hunting bunnies and they were a great team.

[Bod]

James
If you want company with other falconers think again about the Redtail. It wouldn't take much for a redtail to hit a hooded Harris or other BOP for that matter. Your doing a good job of isolating yourself mate.
Me and Falconer are in the same boat as you regarding experience in fact I think I am the least experienced of us all, but I know from what I have read Redtails can be difficult. I want to socialise a bit but you are putting yourself out on a limb. Not saying I'm right but have another think mate.
:wink:

[Bod]

How many years experience have you HM. That could be the difference!

[Hawkmaster]

Over 26, but once you have learnt to condition a bird properly it can be done with almost any of them. We even flew a male Kes and the Ferru together, it was a different one to the first one.

But personally I would rather put tje extra work into a Gos, but the experience you will gain from a RT and making it work well will be worth the reward and possibly make you a more competent falconer.

[ColdZero]

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[Shaun Byrne]

Sorry Cold I'm not going to start on this subject again, all that happens is people get peed off, lol, so I'll leave it to others.

[Chris S]

i have been on field meets with people flying goshawks harris hawks reds spars and long wings and never seen birds attacking birds that are on the fist,fact is i do not know anybody who has flown both that wont tell you that you will learn a lot more by training and hunting a red tail than you would with a harris and anyone that has only flown harris hawks will not understand this.

[Hawkmaster]

FACT!

[ColdZero]

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[Chris S]

then good luck and enjoy what a red tail has to offer and rember they keep getting better year after year. :)

[Hawkmaster]

Ask Johnny Bravo he went for a Red and still goes out with other, but has something else.

[Gaz]

I know this is old stuff but...A red will teach you the most (imo)important thing you"ll ever learn in falconry...RESPECT... :mrgreen:

[Hawkmaster]

A great and better grounding to better things. . . . Goshawks!

[Chris S]

no other talons can cut through a glove and in to your hand like a red tail(thats what you call haveing a bond with your bird) :D

[Falconer]

[quote="Hawkmaster"]Nothing is cast in stone in falconry!

[quote="hawkmaster"]Over 26, but once you have learnt to condition a bird properly it can be done with almost any of them.

No offense meant Paul
But personally a group of inexperienced falconers out with different types of birds could be a recipe for disaster,
And i for one am not prepared after losing one bird to try it.

[Falconer]

James
Sorry mate but you seem to have made ya mind on a red-tail
and i'm not prepaired to risk it,
To be honest would you :wink:
GOOD LUCK ANYWAY

[Gaz]

Also, it would have cost about £200 for a post mortem
Anybody else pay this for a pm??..its around £30-35 here!!

[Musket-Throwa]

please don't join the arris awk brigade,

why do people insist on buying these birds and releasing them into the wild?

I never could fathem that out

[ColdZero]

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[Shaun Byrne]

Sure would mate, Red at top, Harris in crop!! lol!!

[Shaun Byrne]

please don't join the arris awk brigade,

why do people insist on buying these birds and releasing them into the wild?

I never could fathem that out


:?: :?: :?:

[Coedhirion]

4 wat its worth an its probably not much... very v. experienced friend & I were flying 2 FHH an a first year male till Xmas (1 at a time). My bird had to be fed up as I've said so we took on what was a real good 9 year old Red Tail thats taken all sorts an hits bunny so hard it has snapped the spine, he was well known 2 my friend. But by week 3 we were real fed up, he was so slow compared with the Harris & ok when good he was real good, but that only seemed 2 last 5 minutes then he just switched off. if he didnt think it was worth effort he wouldnt even try.... Hoora for the nice man who couldnt keep his 6 month old Gos any more :lol: :D . We are back in bunny buisness ..look out quarry.. he makes the poor old red tail look even worse. Any way happy ending cos Red Tail's gone 2 real experienced home 4 breeding. I would never have an other tho. Horses for courses I guess. I like a bird thats sharp an will follow on and work with dogs an ferrets, or fly off fist according 2 terrain an quarry. If I cant serve my bird with at least 1 kill most times out I feel real guilty. :!:

[ColdZero]

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[OhMyGod]

ok matey, differeent opinions are the key hear.

Pheasants fly in a strait line pretty much, at a good speed so you will not really need a bird that is agile. If you want to take pheasants with a broadwing you'll probably need a female harris as they are better at catching them than any other broadwing I've flown.

I do believe thet they will need to be super fit to do this and will be better flown from the fist if you want your bird to chase them with any determination (preferably from a hood). If you have your hawk up in the air they will not flush properly unless you have a dog. But on the fist you will flush them, then unhood QUICK, you see? and because your hawk only flies from the hood at quarry it will not wait for an easy slip at rabbits, it will want it and be swithed on to it, more like a gos. Following on will make them just wait for somthing easier.

Taking pheasants with a harris like this will give you some exellent sport, but you must fly a bird that is the best suited to the land and quarry you have around you. If you can find pheasants often I would rather use this as my main quarry, not the bunnies, will teach you more about flying shortwings....... ie FITNESS LEVELS AND CONDITION! Most gos I seen flying are unfit due to the owner self hunting harris, thinking he knows what he's doing then buying gos. ruins the gos in first season imho.
Reds will also take them but you need luck as well, with easy slips.

[Kevin Massey]

i really hate to admit it but he aint wrong........a fit harris is more than capable of taking the quarry you have mentioned.......also i do like when there is a bit of a breeze getting them to wait on......i dont work a dog and have to flush them myself...

kev

[OhMyGod]

Ok coldzero I've just been reading more of your questions and I would reckomend getting a new bird, not an old one for a few reasons.

Its better for you to fly a bird at the quarry you want, in the way that you want, in the training methods you have trained it to do. Not let it teach you how somone else has trained it. It's harder with a pre trained bird as they have already desided what quarry they will and will not take before you even seen it.

It will probably have some vices which you do not like and it will take longer to rectify than you had planned

An eyas is a blank page and you can make the bird yourself, and eyas birds don't know what they are doing so you can show them how you would like it to be done. They have soooo much energy for you to channel into the prey species you want to take, and you will see a definate emprovement over the season. They get fit quicker, they learn quicker and with the help you could get on this forum I would seriously get an eyas.

[ColdZero]

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[OhMyGod]

what quarry do you want to fly at most?

AND what quarry have you got the most of?

[ColdZero]

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[Hawkmaster]

The last price I got for a post mortem from Forbes was about £27 plus VAT.

Some HHs do and some just do not sort it out, but for the majority, things are OK.

If a beginner asked, got the correct info and did it correctly, everything should be fine. As people gain more experience they will also learn that in MOST cases hawks that crab each other in the field DO NOT just kill each other, in fact there is no damage most the time.

[Gaz]

Before anything else..take a step back before getting another bird...have a pm..and find out what the other bird died of for gods sake :!: it could stop the other one going the same way :shock:

[Hawkmaster]

YES, well said Gaz, it could be something siomple like a compost heap in the garden next door!

That is why I asked earlier if you still had the bird?

[OhMyGod]

If you want to go for all qaurry, (like birds) for instance I would not recomend a red. I have read all these threads and the reasons for getting a red (like learning respect) I agree with, and if it were me I also would get an eyas red.

However the only main advantages of buying a red FOR HUNTING REASONS would be that red can take hares. Harris can also take hares but if I had a good harris I would not let it go at hares because I would not risk the damage it can cause. And I do not believe they are strong enough, sooner or later your pride will be bashed in, and too your hawk.

I'll just tell you quickly what prey species you will be able to catch WELL!

both male and female harris are EQUAL on all prey species apart from pheasants (and very small birds like larks etc) to me this will mean:

(in order of most capable quarry)
moorhen
rabbit
squirrel
partridge
mallard
rook
woodcock
pheasants

A harris will be able to catch all these species at a good standard, where as a red will be equally matched to harris on say mallard it will be far behind on all the rest as far as number of kills to number of losses goes.

Reds don't get hold of squirrel nearly as often as a harris, nor rabbit nor moorhen nor partridge etc

There are a few more quarry species which a harris is not too good at catching but a red will almost never get
teal
snipe
magpie
gulls
woodys
doves

Hope this makes sense to you coldzero, it is not always the amount of kills you get in a season that makes it good, but the above IS somthing to think about!

As a beginner you may feel you are getting somwhere if you are catching on a more frequent basis.

over to you then

[Gaz]

but if I had a good harris I would not let it go at hares because I would not risk the damage it can cause. And I do not believe they are strong enough, sooner or later your pride will be bashed in, and too your hawk
Agree with this...Fem Red and Hare...match made in heaven :mrgreen:

[Varmint]

Oh My God:shock: :lol:

Concise , like a lazer.................................

R U listening yung un? :idea: :bear: :goodman:

[Hawkmaster]

I never had much success on pheasants with FRTs but did with males, one male used to take rooks, seagulls and even ravens.

Would I fly a Red again, NO!

[OhMyGod]

Seems to me coldzero is going in the direction of shortwings, if he wanted a longwing surely he would be trying to get a slow falcon such as lanner, saker etc.
He says he wants to take all prey species, so we all know what bird he really wants don't we, gos. Whatever species he buys next I believe could get him closer to this goal (if it is his goal). But I firmly believe in what I said earlier about flying it in peak of condition. And think you should do this with a harris, and fly it like a gos, froma hood not a tree. Unless you want to go down the long wing path next then you could fly it from a pich to teach you ready for your longwing, as game hawks do not need to be super fit do they..... just super fat.

[OhMyGod]

HAWKMASTER you didn't say weather you would fly harris again though

[Hawkmaster]

I have one but have not flown him last season as I have been Goshawking and also trying my hand with some problematic falcons.

No time for him but he is a STAR and takes everything and anything, including Dalmation pups! Not hares though as we have not seen any yet.

[ColdZero]

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[OhMyGod]

Like I said before, yes harris are easy to train, but if you want to build up your experience in a way suitable for flying a gos I would concentrate on getting your bird in the peak of condition.
To do this you will need to fly her at maximum speed for long flights and really push her to her limits of fitness. This can be quite difficult to do with any bird, no matter how easy to train, and it will be near impossible if you have a 'following on' style of hunting. The only reason I can think for not getting a red are the reasons I outlined already, you will struggle to get it fully fit, more so than with a gos, and she will not catch a great deal, compared to harris, which in turn gives them more confidence in their ability making them chase harder getting them fitter making them catch more and so on and so forth. I would say harris is more like gos in its hunting technique than a red. IMO

[Varmint]

So get a HH young man, fly it once enetered daily in a high condition without it self hunting, fly it in all weathers and in all styles from following on to waiting on, learn from your bird, and that doesnt mean just get a bird that comes back to you!,(which will be even more fun with a redtail, esp from tree's?)

You havent even scratched the surface on training a HH yet!

So in a nut shell, get another HH, learn from your past mistakes, get someone with several years more experience, who is prepared to help and guide you and then evolve after a couple of seasons to other birds and pastures new.

Yes HH are easy to Mann,

No HH are not easy to enter and fly consistently every day at game without creating some sort of vice!

Yes, valuable time and experience with a HH over a couple of seasons will better prepare you for other birds.

Alternativley if you really want to learn and face a challenge?, get a common Buzzard and get that entered? :wink:

[MickeyDredd]

I know this is old stuff but...A red will teach you the most (imo)important thing you"ll ever learn in falconry...RESPECT...

Cold
This is the best bit of advice you will probably get on a red tail. If they get frustrated they can be pretty dangerous.

I got a 3 year old female from a mate who flew her at 2lb 8oz and she'd had him by the face once.

I've had her for 3 seasons now flying at 2lb 12oz, I've hunted her as high as 2lb 15.5 oz, my mate can pick her up and hunt her, and she's never had a go at me - but then I've never given her the chance to. You must respect them at all times cos they are very quick with their feet and bloody powerful.

I keep my bird fit flying bunnies and when I get the chance I fly her at both blue hare (which she is mad for) and brown hares as well. She will fly almost any prey species and last month had a great flight from the top of a mountain into the valley below at 3 red deer doe but thankfully didn't hit them!!! She is a lot of fun to fly.
So, they are great birds to fly and will teach you a hell of a lot, but as Gaz says RESPECT them.

[ColdZero]

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[ColdZero]

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[Hawkmaster]

I found following on best, BUT slope soaring is the best! Off the fist is OK

[OhMyGod]

coldzero, getting your bird to follow on will improve fitness in the slow twitch muscle fibers in the breast, so it can follow on or soar around for longer,but when you want your bird to sprint it will soon run out or energy as it needs to use its fast twitch muscle fibers for this. Theonly wat to build up these fast twich fibers it to get your burd sprinting at 100% of its capability.

you needto build up the low oxidative fast twich muscles fibers to get good performance on game. to make them use oxygen better and not fatigue as early you need them to max out regularly. A bird will become conditioned to do this more when flown from the hood when it is locked onto its prey very close to it, ie if it tries really hard it will get it, its almost there

if you want your bird to sprint following on will not help with fitness for sprinting one little bit, you can high jump your birds to achieve this, but I recomend using a shelf hatch and not your glove. so the bird doesn't know its you and this way it will not lead to any unwanted behaviour

[ColdZero]

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[OhMyGod]

Just be carefull, an inexperienced falconer may create problems when jump ups are done regular and not hunting. And nobody likes a screeming hawk.

Flying her was the only exercise i got...

A far as your excercise goes falconry is good.... but sha**ing is better

[Hawkmaster]

OMG no wonder your birds are SO fit they keep trying to get away from you!!! :lol:

[Chris S]

its is ok telling him to get a harris and that he will learn more but be honest out of all the people who fly harris hawks how many of them fly them well?most people can get a harris trained flying free hunting but to what leavel?i have been out with and seen so called falconers hunting with there so called rock steady harris hawks only to watch them self hunt and not even if look at a hare,and why not ?people with these great big females scared to have a slip at a hare,come on!!!when i have seen males take them.
so my point being if these people had red tails then most of them would be without a bird by now or out looking for them.!!!

[OhMyGod]

I do agree chris, but if you were to put as much effort into a harris as you would have to with a red you WOULD get better results, just gives you the option to be lazy and then end up doing like you said, and that would be a shame.

If i were a beginner flying a harris I would not learn from a harris hawker, but go elsewhere for advice, like a goshawker, sparhawker, redhawker etc

[Falconer]

its is ok telling him to get a harris and that he will learn more but be honest out of all the people who fly harris hawks how many of them fly them well?most people can get a harris trained flying free hunting but to what leavel?
A Harris is more than capable of taking anything a red can.

[OhMyGod]

Falconer you completely missed the point

[Shaun Byrne]

If i were a beginner flying a harris I would not learn from a harris hawker, but go elsewhere for advice, like a goshawker, sparhawker, redhawker etc


There are as many bad Austringers as Harris Hawkers and fewer real good ones. The type of bird someone flies does not dictate how good a falconer someone is, its how WELL the bird hunts and behaves in the field, whatever bird it is.

[OhMyGod]

How is a beginner to spot the difference?

All I'm saying is if somone is flying a gos or red and it is doing well throughout the season they may be of more help as you can get ok results flying a harris badly, and I don't believe you can with gos or red.

[Chris S]

that is my point with a harris you have the chance to be lazy with a red you do not, you have to make more of an effort to fly the bird to get him fit and keep him fit and if he wants to fly a goss one day then he will be on the right trac,i think in the right hands it is very hard to beat a harris as they are very good hunting birds,but they are different to any other bird in that they are very forgiving birds with there keepers unlike reds and goses they will still kill if left in the mews all week and only flown at weekends.

[Shaun Byrne]

I've flown both Reds and Harris's but still class myself as a "Harris Hawker". I never found RTs to be any more difficult to train than any HH and never found any of them to be as good in the field for my type of hunting, hense I no longer fly them.
You have a chance to be lazy with all hawks, it will just show in different ways and unless a beginner has an experienced falconer on hand at all times I would never recommend them getting any bird but a HH, if they are hell bent on buying one.

[ColdZero]

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[Shaun Byrne]

Your startibg to think along the right lines now mate. To get the best from a RT, IMO, they should be flown from the soar in wide open scrubland. I've flown super fit M&F RTs and caught plenty but neither were a patch on a real fit HH and were no where near as enjoyable in the field. I keep hearing people say that HH are easy, predictable and forgiving. IMO they are no easier to initially train than a RT, more predictable IMO is a bonus and for a bird to forgive you it must first TRUST you so how is that bad.
When I go out in the field I aim to be able to relax, enjoy my days sport with a reliable fit bird, some good company and hopefully some spectacular flights at fit wild quarry. The ONLY (pr) bird that has ever filled all of these requirements is a HH, not RTs or even longwings. I've seen both RTs and Falcons put in awsome flights at all types of quarry but there's always that 1/2 hour waiting for your bird to decide to come out of a tree after a missed flight or tracking your Falcon for 6 miles coz its spotted an easier kill.
Notice I havn't mentioned the Gos? Purely because its one of the few birds I've never owned but at this stage i think any info on Gos' is irrelevant to you anyway.
This is just my opinion and I'm sure some will have a different view. Some people swear by RTs but I think they are better left to our friends across the pond who have the ground to do them justice.

[Varmint]

I agree 100% with everything H4wka says (as usual??)

HH can be one of the most demanding birds to fly consistently at game without devolping vices like self hunting, they are complex to say the least when it comes to weight control versus Hunting, and can actually teach the beginner a lot.

I after many years flying variouse species of Accip, buteo and Aquila have come full circle back to the HH and by applying some of the stuff i have learned from other species have been able to really develop my love and respect of this versatile species.

There are two types of Austringer in this world< those that love HH and those that loath them?

If you loath them, it's your loss!

RT will always have a place in the sport , esp over the pond with the types of game and terrain they have eveolved to hunt in.

The HH being more of a gypsy in the geographical sense has adapted to many differing and varied terrains and quarries, which is why they lend themselves to our sport here in the UK.

[Mr. Fong]

CZ-
What types of quarry do you have where you hunt?

[ColdZero]

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[Falconer]

However, there are a lot of squirrels.

.
Could always try chaps m8
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90871&item=7139282 944&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[Shaun Byrne]

However, there are a lot of squirrels.

.
Could always try chaps m8
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90871&item=7139282 944&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Yeah, dont knock it til you've tried it!! PMSL!!

[ColdZero]

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[Falconer]

Wouldn't mind fitting some permanent ones
at the end of the day it's constant protection for the bird because if they gonna go they will :wink:

[Coedhirion]

Trouble is if you get a real good Harris flying real well you dont get the option of encouraging them or not... The bird will just see the squirrel if you fly in woodland & they dont understand 'leave' :lol: Just made up some chaps for my bird for next year and they turned out real good. I have even flushed darn squirrels out of bunny holes several times this year !!!

[Coedhirion]

PS Get a Harris !!! you get the best of all worlds. Tried a Red Tail (well trained by some one else..Boring) So finishing the season with a smashing male Finnish Gos. Double+ speed, Double + power, but still cant wait to get my male Harris going next year as well. I just like team sport !!!! :lol: :D :D

[ColdZero]

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[Varmint]

Hurrah:lol:

Penny............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. Dropped!!

Have fun planning James. :wink:

[Shaun Byrne]

Put all the time and effort you can into a decent HH and you will never need to "progress" to another species!!

All you got to do now is decide Male, Female,Large or small.

[Falconer]

:prayer: Varmint / H4wka
TOP GUN'S ( IMO ) anyway
Listen to these two James won't go far wrong :wink:

[Shaun Byrne]

:oops:

[OhMyGod]

is this thread finally finished then?

[Falconer]

Guess so :?:

[ColdZero]

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