Fighting Harris Hawks?

[Tim Laycock]

Just a thought that has recently occurred to me.
last weekend my bro-in-law was out flying his male harris with a freind(flying a female) and for no apparent reason after months of shared slips the female took his male off his fist and punctured the males lung (£450 vet bill ouch!).
when I flew a harris the same happened to me at a welsh hawking international meet about 10 years ago (except my male got blinded in one eye)
my questions are -

Has any one else experinced the same thing?

Is it just a male - female thing?

Is harrises attacking eachother more common than people realise?

Dont get me wrong Im not slating harrises, I love em .
just not in my mews.
What do yall think?

[Bones]

No mate your not on yer own had it happen to me the other week
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2746

[Goran]

They do fight for many reasons.My old male had killed female in a breeding chamber because he was ready and she was not.He is with my female now and is "small" in front of her.She has show him only once, about food when feeding after the hunt, that she is bigger and stronger.My young male never fought but was knocked down by the other young male in the field.Mine is all bunnies and the other never cought one but cought many crows.My female will chase any female in her sight but will tolerate many males and she flies in high weight.I have seen fHHs nasty to dogs, people and other HHs.I do not tolerate those.

[Sparrow Hawker]

Hi,

I do think it's more common than people relise I know of to people who have had there male harris's killed by females when sharing an aviary together.

All The Best,

HH

[Hawkmaster]

My male killed a female last season too.

[OhMyGod]

Is this not the time of year? Breeding time?

If you were going to breed they would have been in an aviary for 8 weeks now.

With all those hormones ya know what women are like!

Just a thought

[Goran]

My birds share the same chamber from September, just from when we start hunting.Young male is in and out because I stop hunting the "old" pair 6 weeks ago and continue with a young one.He is still at hunting weight (high weight but I do not weight my HHs once they start hunting).Our bunny season closed two days ago.

[BlackHawke]

i've flown my fhh n a mates fhh on a few occasions no probs. then just after xmas my mates bird nailed mine under the chin and up into the roof of her mouth. pierced her tear duct must have been mm's from her eye!! no reason i could see for it. maybe weight she was a little heavier than normal! i would normally put it down to petty squabbles and being very unlucky when the bird gets a serious injury. but with my mates bird she took my bird out of a tree crashed to the floor n started plucking her!!

[Tim Laycock]

Hmm interesting.
Seems to happen a lot more than people realise.
I was only looking at it from a hunting point of view and had not previously considdered the breeding birds issue, The fighting of wich also seems to be a regular occurrence.
I think it happens most frequently when shared slipping, Although I have done it in the past I have never realy advocated shared slipping.

[RabbitHawker]

How are threse birds raised, and are they properley socailised?. We seem to expect too much from them at times. The Harris's hunts in social groups in the wild, but some people take no account of the social structure when flying their birds together. In any group there will be a pecking order, if you put 2 dominant birds from different groups together one will want to be boss.
Socialisation is also improtant, exactly the same as with dogs, the young birds need to learn other birds postures, and what they mean. Take a young bird from it's parents and keep it away from other harris's for a couple of months and it won't learn this, the same as a pup.
If you look at the states they don't se4em to have these problems with wild caught birds, because they have learnt their manners, and who to steer clear of. My cast of males have he oddd squabble, but that's it.

[Varmint]

Might have something to do with the fact that they conditioned by appetite, and are not really bahving rationally toward each other?

There are two styles of flying grouyp Harris Hawks, Pack hunting when a group of three or more fly co operativley to take game and group hunting when two or more are flown at the same quarry with their own interest's at heart, most people fly the latter.

It takes a lot of time and work to make a pack senario work!

[BlackHawke]

this is why i feel a young bird should be exposed to as much as possible in the first few years. if anyone getting their first harris this year has the chance of going out with an experienced cast they should. good for both you and the bird. i think it gives the bird a good start.

dunno if anyone else agrees. but i did with my male n he was great on his own and with a cast. never had any problems with the other birds, and he appeared to know his place!

[Miguel Gomez]

Been group Hunting Harris Hawks for years with no problems - but birds never flown off the fist at shared slipped - all free from start to finish you do have squabbles and they need to left sort it out - before quarry comes into the picture. if off the fist this cant be done.

Also most people have single Harris so not kept socialized - a friend of mine is moulting his Harris with mine to keep them socialized this summer.

Also I have found the most aggressive Harrises to be the least successful hunters(mainly fault of the lazy falconer)and through frustration another Harris is an easy kill!

Another reason for breeders to put in large whole carcasses ie Rabbits, Pheasant, Squirrels is youngsters eat off the same kill building social skills. All this food chute permitting?!!

My tuppence worth
Miguel

[Miguel Gomez]

Hi again

Last year on a field meet my little 1st year 2lbs 3oz Female was bullied by a big adult 2lbs 7oz female as soon as released.

Adult Female made all the aggressive postures and mine rolled over like a submissive dog but tweeting - satisfied my youngster wasn't a threat she flew off and the cooperative hunting was on!!

Not very macho thing to happen if its your bird rolling over - but that's an example of social skills.

cya
Miguel

[BlackHawke]

the little male i put in with my jade didnt roll over but it used to tweet at first when jade flew next to it

[Tim Laycock]

You dont seem to get males scrapping with other males do you?
Just females and males and females and females (Oooh-er!) :lol:

Cant imagine why this might be :?:

[BlackHawke]

i can u know u know wot women are like!!!!! :rolleyes:

oh i'm gonna be in so much trouble when the missus gets in!!! :shock:

[Tim Laycock]

:lol:

[Varmint]

You dont seem to get males scrapping with other males do you?

Yep, all the time! biggest danger times,

When calling 1 bird into fist, they can often crabb or even try to take the food outta each others mouths.

On a Kill, especially small kills, for obviouse reasons!

When bating in close proximity.

I have seen birds not just crabbed, but killed in all three of these scenarios.

I have flown group HH every day of my life for the past 15 yrs, it is not cut and dry, and something that all beginners need prepare themselves for.

I do not introduce a bird to the group until it is entered properly in it's own right and has around 10-20 kills under it's belt and it's weight is back up again.

Just my Tuppence!

[Gaz]

have flown group HH every day of my life for the past 15 yrs, it is not cut and dry, and something that all beginners need prepare themselves for.
No its not cut and dry,its a common misconception that wild Harrises hunt in social groups,as i said before at the nafa meet i talked to a man who has studied them inthe wild for 28 yrs,and he said the only ones that do this are a small group in the sonnoran desert,wich explains why what happens,happens,when 4-5 people get together and all launch their hh off,giving no thought to first letting natural age/sex/pecking orders to become established through introduction first......just my tuppence worth :mrgreen:

[Tim Laycock]

Oh right, seems I was wrong :oops:

Funny how falconry can do that to you :D

[Varmint]

Stick your head above the parapit Tim, and see what happens? :lol:

[Gaz]

Stick it in yer book :finga: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Tim Laycock]

Stick your head above the parapit Tim, and see what happens?
Whats that supposed to mean Adrian :?: :)

Stick it in yer book
:lol:

[ColdZero]

how much socialsing would a young harris need? I want to fly with others, and i thought a few hours tethered together (out of reach though) would let them sort out a pecking order etc. Would letting them share a whole rabbit carcass be a good idea? I have no experience in this, the last thing i want is for my bird to injure another so what can i do to eliminate the chances as best i can?

[HawkMan69UK]

its like gaz said its only a small wild population that fly in cast we have all been there out with a few harrises on many occasions every one taking there turn to slip or there following on nicely then out of nowhere someones bird nails another for no apperent reason.. theres one guy who will remain nameless(birds name meg) in bristol and his female would try to kill anything be it harris or pheasent but people still use to fly with him ..**** that.... you can soicalize as much as you like its sheer instinctall a bird has to do is move a little to quick maybe slightly out of view then another one nails it... thers a well established guy who i know his male and female lived together 24/7 for years then one day out of the blue in his own garden she killed him you cant eliminate this it does just happen but if you take turns on slips cz and wait till your birds back on ya fist rather than letting them following on you obviously goona reduce the likelyhood of a nailing....finished... and somes birds are just nasty...finished :lol:

[ColdZero]

what about a hawk taking another off the fist?

[Tim Laycock]

what about a hawk taking another off the fist?
This is exactly what happend to my male mentioned at the start of the post (the one that lost an eye)
After this the guys female(creche reared by the way)took a dislike to all other Harrises and repeated this performance several times.
At next WHC meet he was asked to go out with the Gos group.
No more problems.

[Varmint]

It's already there Gaz, you'll just have to learn to read now :finga:

Sticking head above parapit Tim, means that no matter what you think you know, someone always knows better, especially on this forum?

Funny though, all this mass of knowledge and experience rarley leaves the threads?

Everyone thinks that HH are beginners birds and too easy, funny then that they have all of this trouble flying in groups? entering? with Noise? with Motivation?

Not so easy after all when you dig a little deeper!

[Tim Laycock]

Sticking head above parapit Tim, means that no matter what you think you know, someone always knows better, especially on this forum?

Or thinks they know better, As the case may or may not be :!: :)

[Ben C]

Have a look for the work by Lance and Jill Morrow, type em up in google :D . They have pictures of severly wounded Harris Hawks (electrocution etc) which because of the cooperative hunting characteristic have managed to survive when they should not have.

If I am not mistaken this is not the small group that Gazman mentions. I am off to see them in Texas next easter so i shall let you all know.

Its gotta be obvious that when they do hunt in groups it will be a highly organised family group, so just blindly hunting in a cast without preparation is a big no no. Another reason for not hunting with others methinks :D :D :D (nah just me I am a grumpy old sod!)

[Gaz]

family group
BINGO :!:

[Wightwings]

HOUSE.............. :lol: :wink:

[OutFlying]

eyes down............................................ :roll: :wink:

[Wightwings]

:lol: :D

[OutFlying]

LINE :oops:

[Ben C]

Of coke?

[ColdZero]

i'm hungry....