Pursuit hawking with gladiators

[Kashai]

Well, as I have an agreement with my Austrian friend, I had the possibility to take 2 chicks he bred. They are so called "tribrids", as the mother is a 50%gyr x saker, and the father is a pealei peregrine. All youngs performed very well in the last two years, that's why I decided, to raise a pursuit hawk like this. I prefer wildhacked imprints, so I took the first and the second birds that hatched, at the age of 7 and 8 days. Concerning the bodyshape we weren't sure about the sexes, because they looked like males (triangle shaped beaks from above), but the size (and appetite) were really incredible.

K

[Kashai]

We were waiting for the DNA test results (as my friend has sent the samples to London), but as time went I was quite sure that both birds MUST be females, because the scale has shown me numbers, I could hardly believe. I talked to an other friend of mine, who bred gyr x peregrine females around 1200 grams, and he has said, that his chicks at the age of 8 days were (are) between 175-220 grams. I watched the datas of my former peregrine female I had raised before, and had turned to be a 850g bird too. She was 198 grams at the age of 12 days (then she came to me). And now the datas:

Now the smaller bird is 11 days old and 350g (12,34 oz), the bigger is 12, and 500g exactly (1 lb, 1,6 oz)! Unfortunately I forgot to take a photo today before feeding, so here is one from the day before yesterday.

K

[Kashai]

The test arrived, both birds are females! Here you are pics from today. What I am sure in, that I have never ever had such a big falcon. (I hope everything will be fine to make them good hawks)

Has anybody any experience in estimating the final weight of such a bird? I'm really curious - although I know, weight is not everything - about this!

Hey, the one, who "pinpoints" the right weight, will get the address of my friend, he still has youngs..:)

K

[richardjboyce]

Intresting tribrid mixture, they sound potentially deadly ! What quarry will you fly them at when ready ?

[Kashai]

If it depends on me, then REALLY everything. Including speed-cops:) Seriously, I think I would try to take hare, geese grey heron. The goose is the daydream, the hare has the most chances.. We will see. First I have to raise them, then to get them back from wildhack!:)

K

[richardjboyce]

Best of luck with the rearing and wild hacking.

I have a (new) one year old male 5/8 Gyr / Saker. (he was hacked for two weeks).

He s had six rooks with his previous owner. He s in moult in aviary at the moment, when he s finished moulting I want to fly him at rabbit, ducks and pheasant ?(things I can eat too:-P). Do you think I can get him to take rabbits in pursuit style ?

Cheers

Richard

[Kashai]

Best of luck with the rearing and wild hacking.

I have a (new) one year old male 5/8 Gyr / Saker. (he was hacked for two weeks).

He s had six rooks with his previous owner. He s in moult in aviary at the moment, when he s finished moulting I want to fly him at rabbit, ducks and pheasant ?(things I can eat too:-P). Do you think I can get him to take rabbits in pursuit style ?

Cheers

Richard

The size shouldn't be a problem, the question is the space for the hawk to chase. In the bush you will have problems. A falcon needs enough room to accelerate, and stoop more times. That's why hare is ideal, as they run like Forrest Gump, and don't hide. Although they're much bigger. But anyhow, we hardly have rabbits here due to mixomatosis, but there are plenty of hares (tuberculosis isn't so effective:))).

K

[HaggisHawker]

Don't you think it's irresponsible for you to wild-hack hybrids / tribrids?

The reason hybrids are becoming banned in Germany was because more hybrids were encountered surviving in the wild: most were escapes from wild hacking by big breeders.

Keep it under control, and you'll not spoil hybrid flying for other falconers.

Teach it to survive in the wild and, if it does, you'll add further evidence for the all-out banning of hybrids.

[Kashai]

Don't you think it's irresponsible for you to wild-hack hybrids / tribrids?

The reason hybrids are becoming banned in Germany was because more hybrids were encountered surviving in the wild: most were escapes from wild hacking by big breeders.

Keep it under control, and you'll not spoil hybrid flying for other falconers.

Teach it to survive in the wild and, if it does, you'll add further evidence for the all-out banning of hybrids.

No, I don't think it at all. I know a breeder, who wildhacks hundreds (!) of them each year (I mean falcons, both hybs, or pure big falcons). I don't want to continue this sentence, because more will misunderstand it, then understand.

But:

-I have only two birds, to wildhack
-I will take care as much as I can
-If I loose them, then it will be an accident, I mean, they will die for sure, otherwise I will not loose them.
- As I give them ONLY fresh meat, they will not be forced to hunt. They will not see anything, they can recognize as "food". As they start to linger, I trap them back
-Finally: There are THOUSANDS of hybrids flying free each year all around the world. How many cases are heard, that they spoiled the natural population of wild falcons? Less, than little... First stop globalization, or killing pandas, or whales, or whatever, and when my hybs will be the bigest problem, I will stop wildhacking... But till then I want the best for my birds! Sorry to say this, but being a falconer, my priorities maybe a bit different then for the non-falconers.

Just as a hunter friend of mine said: "Even if I would be the one, that shoots the last elephant of the world, it wouldn't be me, that causes the desolation of the species..."

In Hungary You must take a lot of exams, to have the right to keep a raptor. I do not say, that we are all experts, but it's not by chance, that it's only 150 of us here. But anyhow, to tell you the truth, for the last 15 years I fly only imprints, and so far I HAVE NEVER EVER LOST ANY. That is enough for me.

Kashai

[Pogger]

Don't you think it's irresponsible for you to wild-hack hybrids / tribrids?

The reason hybrids are becoming banned in Germany was because more hybrids were encountered surviving in the wild: most were escapes from wild hacking by big breeders.

Keep it under control, and you'll not spoil hybrid flying for other falconers.

Teach it to survive in the wild and, if it does, you'll add further evidence for the all-out banning of hybrids.


The chances of one of these female tribreds being fertile is very slim therefor their impact on wild stock is almost non existant.

If you want to really clean things up you'd have to stop the keeping and flying of all non native species. A barbary is much more of a risk to our pure peregrine population than any hybred.

[Kashai]

The chances of one of these female tribreds being fertile is very slim therefor their impact on wild stock is almost non existant.

If you want to really clean things up you'd have to stop the keeping and flying of all non native species. A barbary is much more of a risk to our pure peregrine population than any hybred.

BINGO!

K

[HaggisHawker]

[QUOTE=Kashai;821387]No, I don't think it at all. I know a breeder, who wildhacks hundreds (!) of them each year (I mean falcons, both hybs, or pure big falcons).

This is part of the problem - not a solution unfortunately.

But:

-I have only two birds, to wildhack
-I will take care as much as I can
-If I loose them, then it will be an accident, I mean, they will die for sure, otherwise I will not loose them.
- As I give them ONLY fresh meat, they will not be forced to hunt. They will not see anything, they can recognize as "food". As they start to linger, I trap them back
-Finally: There are THOUSANDS of hybrids flying free each year all around the world. How many cases are heard, that they spoiled the natural population of wild falcons? Less, than little... First stop globalization, or killing pandas, or whales, or whatever, and when my hybs will be the bigest problem, I will stop wildhacking... But till then I want the best for my birds! Sorry to say this, but being a falconer, my priorities maybe a bit different then for the non-falconers.

I'm not saying your hybrids are the world's biggest conservation problem BUT for those who might like to ban falconry, they are one of the biggest current targets, especially when wild-hacked and lost. I'm not against hybrids - I'm concerned about wild-hacking them, and teaching them wild survival skills and increasing the probability of loss - about that there is no argument. The same goes for barbaries or other non-indigenous species that get hacked.

I'm also asking you to think about other falconers. Like those who would like to practice falconry in Sweden - where a possibility for some legalisation existed a few years ago... then a male gyr-peregrine was found living in the wild (ex-wild-hack from eslewhere in Europe) and that stopped the whole process. Like German falconers who might like to fly hybirds - but they are now banned because breeders who were hacking hundreds (like your friend) let enough escape so that they became perceived as a problem. YOU might think that hybrids are no problem in the wild, others with more power and a stronger lobby (like Birdlife International or the RSPB), think the opposite and will use it to hammer falconry....


Just as a hunter friend of mine said: "Even if I would be the one, that shoots the last elephant of the world, it wouldn't be me, that causes the desolation of the species..."

No, but he would have done nothing but help it to happen and, if you understand how the vast majority of people actually think, you will know that your hunter friend will retain no moral high-ground whatsoever...a very naive perspective.

[SkyChecker]

I'm not saying your hybrids are the world's biggest conservation problem BUT for those who might like to ban falconry, they are one of the biggest current targets, especially when wild-hacked and lost. I'm not against hybrids - I'm concerned about wild-hacking them, and teaching them wild survival skills and increasing the probability of loss - about that there is no argument. The same goes for barbaries or other non-indigenous species that get hacked.



Sorry, but I think this is the wrong section for a general hybrid discussion!

Moreover, these are falcons imprinted on humans so their future sexual partner is...
And the owner is respecting his local law, which in my opinion means, there is no reason to get personal offensive.

Regards
Matt

[HaggisHawker]

Not sure how you can accuse my posts of being 'personal(ly) offensive'?

Imprints can revert to 'normal' reproductive behaviour with other hawks, just as parent-reared birds can become imprints.

[Pogger]

I think this thread has gone extreamly off topic which is a shame. If people really want to talk the pros and cons of hybrids it ought to be done on another thread. I for one would very much like to read about the progress of these two tribreds without having to wade through a debate to get updates. No disrespect intended to any parties involved.

[ReluctantTwitcher]

Being a long-time falconry aficionado from Sweden, I'm afraid I have to agree with Haggishawker. We as falconers/falconry enthusiasts might regard hybrids as something exciting and rather uncontroversial by now, but ornithologists & many conservationists certainly doesn't share this view - if you haven't actively been following the debate about hybrids within these circles, you wouldn't believe how much bad coverage they've gotten, and how much this particular issue has influenced their views on falconry and falconers in general. They might not be the most burning issue from a true biological point of view, but it is certainly a PR nightmare to deal with, so please be careful about what you post and how you word it on an Internet forum. If not for the sake of falconry or the continued use of hybrids in other countries, then for your own sake. This is not a personal attack on anyone, just a comment to what has actually been posted here already in this thread, thread starter included.

Respectfully yours,
/Magnus

[SkyChecker]

Not sure how you can accuse my posts of being 'personal(ly) offensive'?

Imprints can revert to 'normal' reproductive behaviour with other hawks, just as parent-reared birds can become imprints.

Calling somebody, even if done indirectely "naive", in my eyes is the first step to be personally offensive. If you did not have this meaning, please excuse me!

I respect your point of view and I am really familiar with it, because I am living in one of the countries where the discussion is over.

I know that the imprinting process can be reverted, but if raised without siblings and flown with quality telemetry, the risk you are thinking of is extremely small (compare the law in the U.S.A. and some provinces of Canada) - sorry to repeat myself "wrong section":rolleyes:.

[Kashai]

Ok...

So, I didn't mean any replies here as an attack or against me or anybody else. So don't worry (any of you:))

On the other hand (I know nobody is interested in it), there are swifts, ducks, seagulls, etc, even raptors making hybs in the nature WITHOUT HUMAN INFLUENCE. IThis doesn't disturb anybody?

Hybrids and their wildhacking is like kitchen-knives. Should be the knives banned, because somebody kills an other by it? NO! If a hyb gets lost, and found, by the ring the owner sould be identified - and if the law like this - and punished. But why sould all the process be stopped? I'm just thinking about the principals, I'm not naive, I know the power of the greens - maybe I wasn't careful enough by my words.

But anyhow, my intetion is to raise these chicks, and construct perfect pursuit hawks of them. By chance these hawks are hys (trybs...) for me it does not matter. My goal is clear, and I will try to achieve it without the IFF too, but on the other hand I wanted to share my experiences with you, and wanted to see your opinions.

So if you think I can stop this thread, I don't want any fuss (everybody has enough in private life), I don't want to hurt anybody.


Maybe a moderator could drop a line to me here!

Thanks

Kashai

[Dude]

Hi Kash my friend :)

So after the Berlin(perlin) u decided to raise another hybred(tri :D )

Interesting plans I just cant wait to hear more of your process!

Good luck buddy!

[HaggisHawker]

Dear Kash

Don't worry yourself about it - just recognise the potential PR problem and keep up your 100% record of hack recovery.

Yes you get wild birds naturally hybridising, but the PR problem is when we engineer it ourselves - especially problematic if the species are not naturally overlapping (like peales and sakers) when 'frankenstein monster' arguments are touted.

But on a non-critical point - why not fly parent-reared eyasses and don't risk the hack? They get just as tame as imprints, often without the baggage and hard work. I know some breeders have a surplus of chicks so encourage imprinting to save their rearing birds, but a parent-reared hawk is less demanding and gets just as tame and deadly with the right approach.

Anyway, end of thread and sorry to have got you worked up.

[Kashai]

"Anyway, end of thread and sorry to have got you worked up.[/QUOTE]"

Sorry, I don't understand this sentence of yours. Would you please explain it to me?

On the other hand wildhacking for me is not for having a non-screamer or non-mantler bird. For this I don't need hack at all. The perlin I got 3 years ago from Chris Southern was imprinted as well, but without hack she wasn't a screamer, nor a mantler. Wildhack is for me only teaching the falcons to fly. That's all. If they get enough time to play in the air, their abilities rise much more above to the not hacked ones. I had already both types of bird. Nobody can convince me about the opposite of this viewpoint. The most important in a hacked bird, that she knows what she can do. It's essential.

K

[Austringer84]

Interesting thread...

I can see both points of view, and I can understand that hibrids are a risk to wild populations, but dont consider it a massive risk, especially if people minimise losses as best they can, however it was pointed out in my degree as a threat, and so people on here should consider that before saying it, altho if not against any law and dealt with with care as im sure it would be in this place hacking is a very beneficial tooL!

that said...

I am interested to know what progress has been made with your falcons to date...keep us updated.

many thanks

simon

[HaggisHawker]

"Anyway, end of thread and sorry to have got you worked up."

Sorry, I don't understand this sentence of yours. Would you please explain it to me?

I mean sorry to have stressed you - as you said there's enough strain in life as it is and you were asking for the thread to end.


On the other hand wildhacking for me is not for having a non-screamer or non-mantler bird. For this I don't need hack at all. The perlin I got 3 years ago from Chris Southern was imprinted as well, but without hack she wasn't a screamer, nor a mantler.

Does that perlin prove it then?


Wildhack is for me only teaching the falcons to fly. That's all. If they get enough time to play in the air, their abilities rise much more above to the not hacked ones. I had already both types of bird. Nobody can convince me about the opposite of this viewpoint. The most important in a hacked bird, that she knows what she can do. It's essential.

Without wishing to start another thread - the benefits of the results of a hack are actually controversial. Of course if training is minimal then a non-hacked bird will never catch up. However, even direct comparisons of hacked and non-hacked merlins haven't been able to prove superiority alongside.

Some people say (like you) that hacking is important. Others not so.
Some people say hybrids are superior. Others not so.

[Kashai]

"

Does that perlin prove it then?


Without wishing to start another thread - the benefits of the results of a hack are actually controversial. Of course if training is minimal then a non-hacked bird will never catch up. However, even direct comparisons of hacked and non-hacked merlins haven't been able to prove superiority alongside.



I think the perlin really missed the wildhack. Not only because she could have fly better, but she could have learn the surroundings much better. As she was really always with me, she was completely fearless. She was a pursuit falcon too, and I can tell you, she haven't finished chasing a pigeon, even when a buzzard started to follow them. Finally a gos killed her after a chase. I think wildhack (maybe - we won't know this anymore) could have helped her at least a bit, to recognize the enemies, and make her rather escape from a critical situation, then ignore it...

I think by flying a falconer never has the chance to prove the birds abilities as much as by hacking. If you fly your bird, then the falcon must have hunger to be in contact with you, so she will not play, she will concentrate on you, she will be under your controll.

At hack, even if there are more birds, they CAN PLAY WITHOUT RESERVATION. I think it is more than important. A friend of mine (I've mentioned this some threads ago) participated in a experiment, when they have put GPS on a tiercel peregrine at hack. On the 21th day the bird was 25 km far from the hacking place 1927 m high. Then he returned without a problem. Just imagine, how safe a bird may play in the air, when there is 2 km "air column" under him. He can correct all the false movements, without the chance of an accident. BY TRAINING YOU NEVER HAVE THE SAME CHANCE. I think these are facts.

On one hand I agree with you. I've seen very good falcons, that weren't hacked. But there are more good hacked birds, then non-hacked, and the very best birds I've ever seen were hacked. All of them... That is my experience.

K

[Daave77]

Dear Kash

Don't worry yourself about it - just recognise the potential PR problem and keep up your 100% record of hack recovery.

Yes you get wild birds naturally hybridising, but the PR problem is when we engineer it ourselves - especially problematic if the species are not naturally overlapping (like peales and sakers) when 'frankenstein monster' arguments are touted.


Haggishawker,


I for one would like to hear of ANYONE (carrying ANY political or scientific weight) describing a PereXSaker as a 'frankenstein monster', or; for that matter, any similar hybrid! I want to protect Falconry as much as the next person but flying INFERTILE tribreds (in my opinion) has an extremely low impact on wild stocks, they won't breed with wild birds and even if they 'escape' and fend for themselves, at worst they will dislodge (possibly) a wild Pere, but i'm sure come breeding time, a singular tribred will be the one to be moved on by nesting wild couples. Far more risk I would think would be Peales etc.. escaping, crossing over with our wild Pere's and affecting bloodlines but if we are to really look at evolution and our interference with it, one would imagine natural selection will favour the birds most adapted to their natural environment; so, useful as Tribreds are to Falconers for specific flights at specific quarry in specific terrain, we need to remember (before we all get too wound up) that the resident wild birds we have are the BEST suited to their natural environment - evolution has sorted that one nicely for us.

As for the 'frankenstein monster', if we are truly worried about monster creations and what we should/shouldn't be doing about them, I would be far more concerned with crossing of completely different genus's such as Accipter x Parabuteo that some are breeding and many waiting to fly (see Gos x Harris threads), I would think that would give far more ammunition to anti's than creating infertile tribreds of similar looking falcons from the same genus??

I have a Gyr/Altai x Pere Tiercel on order for this year, I think its the perfect cross for my quarry/country requirements, but a fertile wild pere is far better suited to long term survival in the wild in the country I live, my bird and thousands like it (if that number were ever produced) would never change that.

Kash - best of luck I look forward to hearing more!!!

[Kashai]

Haggishawker,




Kash - best of luck I look forward to hearing more!!!

Thanks Dave, I will try my best!

On the other hand, I don't think, that Haggishawker should be convinced about the low risk of trybs. The question is always the scareness of greens. Maybe you and me believe a bit more in Sense, then Haggis. Maybe he will be right, and it turns out, that it is a mistake, to advertise my passion, but I hope he is too much afraid of the blinded administrators. We will see...

Kashai

[Kashai]

Hi all,

I thought, to show you my beauties again a bit. In the meantime the difference between the two birds increased to 30% , which is even then too much, if they are "mixtures". I contacted my friend (who bred them), about his opinion, but he's just said: "Lucky *******! You, f***in' lucky *******!" Told him, that I know, the bigger chick is the biggest I'd ever had, but he just continued this "You F. lucky *******!" thing. Then finally he said laughing: "I'm talking about the smaller bird, not the bigger one, you f. l. b.!! Do you remember what I was inseminating the mother of that chick with?"

Then really slowly it came to my mind, so slow, that I even forgot the word in English RED NAPED SHAHIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!! The smaller bird is not from the pealei male, but from the RNS, my friend "used" for inseminating too! So I have now two birds, I was only dreaming about.

It is funny as my friend (his nick name is Peales2000 on the IFF) said: Hey, it took me years, to make one, and now I cannot even see her!

Of course my answer was: It depends on, how much you want to see her:)

I wouldn't write here his answer...:)

So, here they are, 22 and 21 days old, 1080 and 789g they were this morning with empty crop. I hope, you will like them! Watch the fingers, they are almost the same lenght!

Hey Peale2000! Was the story true, I wrote here?


K

[CanadaManada]

Really nice birds you have there.
If anyone complains to you about the hacking thing just tell them point blank to shut it and learn something about hybrid/tribrid fertility in females.
Can't wait to see how these birds come on.

Justin

[Kashai]

Really nice birds you have there.
If anyone complains to you about the hacking thing just tell them point blank to shut it and learn something about hybrid/tribrid fertility in females.
Can't wait to see how these birds come on.

Justin

It's funny, since the Hungarian Saker Conservation team wanted to proof, that the "Hungarian Saker" stays within 100-200 km of the nesting place. They put gps on some chicks, that gives signal for a year. Last year there was one that flew to mid Russia, an other to Africa, so that's all. If they wanted to mix, they could... But they don't, so it does't matter what kind of bird is flying here, they breed only with themselves... So with the peregrines. All the other examples are more than below the mistake-percentage...

I rather go back to my steril, imprints, that have nothing to do with nature (except robbing it a bit - I hope:))


K

[Peales2000]

Hi Kashai,
I like it to see some birds of my breeding project on this forum. As I have not seen them since day 8 I am quite pleased with what I see. The daughter of "La Grande", my 1600 grams grey Iceland gyr x saker female, seems to be from my imprinted peales tiercel "Joeson". I guess that she will weigh about 1300 t0 1350 grams when hardpenned. The daughter of "Claire", a 1450 grams gyr x saker from the same parents as "La Grande", but paler, seems to be from my RNS tiercel. It´s the first time that I made a tribrid like that. I am only astonished because I thaught that the feathers will be more reddish. The last female tribrid I still have at home and that is with her grandmother, a big female saker, seems to be more reddish. I think that there is a good chance that she will be from the RNS male as well. Anyone interested in the parents or the tribrids I bred in the past can have a look on my site http://shaheencenter.blogspot.com/
I hope that your two tribrids will come back from hack as strong flyers and that you achieve your goals with them.
Good luck, you lucky b.....d!

[Ginty]

Hear Hear !! :supz:



Haggishawker,


I for one would like to hear of ANYONE (carrying ANY political or scientific weight) describing a PereXSaker as a 'frankenstein monster', or; for that matter, any similar hybrid! I want to protect Falconry as much as the next person but flying INFERTILE tribreds (in my opinion) has an extremely low impact on wild stocks, they won't breed with wild birds and even if they 'escape' and fend for themselves, at worst they will dislodge (possibly) a wild Pere, but i'm sure come breeding time, a singular tribred will be the one to be moved on by nesting wild couples. Far more risk I would think would be Peales etc.. escaping, crossing over with our wild Pere's and affecting bloodlines but if we are to really look at evolution and our interference with it, one would imagine natural selection will favour the birds most adapted to their natural environment; so, useful as Tribreds are to Falconers for specific flights at specific quarry in specific terrain, we need to remember (before we all get too wound up) that the resident wild birds we have are the BEST suited to their natural environment - evolution has sorted that one nicely for us.

As for the 'frankenstein monster', if we are truly worried about monster creations and what we should/shouldn't be doing about them, I would be far more concerned with crossing of completely different genus's such as Accipter x Parabuteo that some are breeding and many waiting to fly (see Gos x Harris threads), I would think that would give far more ammunition to anti's than creating infertile tribreds of similar looking falcons from the same genus??

I have a Gyr/Altai x Pere Tiercel on order for this year, I think its the perfect cross for my quarry/country requirements, but a fertile wild pere is far better suited to long term survival in the wild in the country I live, my bird and thousands like it (if that number were ever produced) would never change that.

Kash - best of luck I look forward to hearing more!!!

[Dude]

great lookin' monsters u have got there mate!

I cant wait for the updates ;)