Does anyone fly a black spar?

[ColdZero]

I trully love these birds, and want to learn as much as i can about them. If anyone has one, or has flown them please give as much info as possible.

So far i'm assuming they are treated much the same as a sparrowhawk.

[Jack Merlin]

I've had two opinions.

They are psychos and totally untameable.

They are sweeties and with proper manning become as tame as a kitten.

Take your choice. But I think you are correct. Accipiters need to be wooed and it is not a matter of simply manipulating the weight. Spars, in particular, need careful handling but can become very confiding.

I share your interest in them but from what I've heard about their persistence after avian prey, you might need quite a lot of ground to be able to fly them successfully. Judging from the feet, they are pure bird catchers. The males apparently weigh about 16oz which is too small for pheasants, but if you have a lot of partridges, may be. The females sound a very useful bird. Definitely not for the novice! I have a nasty feeling that they drop dead when the mood takes them, a bit like accipiter nisus.

[Martin]

I've had two opinions.

They are psychos and totally untameable.

They are sweeties and with proper manning become as tame as a kitten.

Take your choice. But I think you are correct. Accipiters need to be wooed and it is not a matter of simply manipulating the weight. Spars, in particular, need careful handling but can become very confiding.

I share your interest in them but from what I've heard about their persistence after avian prey, you might need quite a lot of ground to be able to fly them successfully. Judging from the feet, they are pure bird catchers. The males apparently weigh about 16oz which is too small for pheasants, but if you have a lot of partridges, may be. The females sound a very useful bird. Definitely not for the novice! I have a nasty feeling that they drop dead when the mood takes them, a bit like accipiter nisus.


Dear Jack

I think if you flew a male black spar at 16oz, it would not be flying far, it would be dead, :(

Mart

[Jack Merlin]

Dear Jack

I think if you flew a male black spar at 16oz, it would not be flying far, it would be dead,

Mart

I have copied the following off another list. Perhaps Martin would like to write and tell the good doctor he doesn't know what he is talking about? Better stick to buzzards, Martin, you don't seem to be doing very well as the Wise Man of the falconryforum!<g> When I was at school, 500 grams was approximately 16 ounces.

Hi all
To continue on the raptors used in SA falconry. The Black sparrowhawk
(A. melanoleucus) is a very popular species. It is common throughout
most of SA, and eyasses are easily obtained. None are bred in
captivity so far here, all come from the wild. The females weigh
about 850 g, the males about 500 g. They are specialist bird hunters,
with long toes, long tail, short wings; indeed, a typical
sparrowhawk, despite the large size. They come in two colour morphs,
the melanistic which is practically pitch black except for a white
patch on the throat and slight barring on the tail, and the normal
phase which has a white breast. The juveniles are reddish brown very
similar to the goshawk. They have all the typical sparrowhawk behaviors;
erratic, hair trigger responses, easily upset, determined hunters,
great acceleration, superb aerial footwork. Quite tricky to train,
but easy to hunt once they settle down. Can be hunted repeatedly on
one day; the most I took was total five quarry, in morning and afternoon
hunts. Many birds remain wild, and one that I flew very successfully
(took 80 birds in 4 months hunting, going out only 2-3 times per
week), bated away from me every time I entered the mews. One week
absence meant virtually training again from the start. (In the first
season going out daily she was not any tamer.) Nevertheless they are
fantastic birds to fly. It helps if youre not married (they scream
like you wont believe, even if taken as very late eyasses. They often
hate women (if youre male; I havent seen a woman fly one yet, but I
presume the reverse will hold true). Some are quiet, steady
dependable birds, but they are exceptional. Their quarry is basically
any bird between 100 and 1500g. The males even learn to take adult
guinea fowl (1500g). That is quite a match, 3:1 in weight. Once
footed on the head, the guinea gives up the fight. If not got on the
head, it can fight very much. Black spars very quickly learn to take
birds on the second flush; this is a bad habit, but can be prevented.
They are not keen on duck, although they will take them. I think its
all in the entering. Francolin certainly make up the bulk of the
quarry hunted here. Quail are a piece of cake for the muskets, doves
and pigeons are taken sporadically. Ground quarry (mongooses etc)
taken only very occasionally. Given good hunting grounds, the black
spar will probably take more quarry than any SA raptor in a season.
They are not my favorite raptor by any means, but I certainly enjoyed
the 5 years or so that I flew them. They are usually the first choice
of bird for general grade falconers after grading from learner
falconer.
Bye for now
Edmund
...........................................
Dr E E Oettle B.V.Sc. Ph.D
Fisantekuil
P O Box 152
7654 Wellington
South Africa
Tel: (+27)21-8641184
Fax: (+27)21-8735724

[ColdZero]

they sound awesome, and VERY difficult. They're way up there with gos' and hawk-eagles on my list. I have seen them for sale in C&AB before i think, about the same price as a gos.

[Martin]

Dear Jack

I think if you flew a male black spar at 16oz, it would not be flying far, it would be dead,

Mart

I have copied the following off another list. Perhaps Martin would like to write and tell the good doctor he doesn't know what he is talking about? Better stick to buzzards, Martin, you don't seem to be doing very well as the Wise Man of the falconryforum!<g> When I was at school, 500 grams was approximately 16 ounces.

Hi all
To continue on the raptors used in SA falconry. The Black sparrowhawk
(A. melanoleucus) is a very popular species. It is common throughout
most of SA, and eyasses are easily obtained. None are bred in
captivity so far here, all come from the wild. The females weigh
about 850 g, the males about 500 g. They are specialist bird hunters,
with long toes, long tail, short wings; indeed, a typical
sparrowhawk, despite the large size. They come in two colour morphs,
the melanistic which is practically pitch black except for a white
patch on the throat and slight barring on the tail, and the normal
phase which has a white breast. The juveniles are reddish brown very
similar to the goshawk. They have all the typical sparrowhawk behaviors;
erratic, hair trigger responses, easily upset, determined hunters,
great acceleration, superb aerial footwork. Quite tricky to train,
but easy to hunt once they settle down. Can be hunted repeatedly on
one day; the most I took was total five quarry, in morning and afternoon
hunts. Many birds remain wild, and one that I flew very successfully
(took 80 birds in 4 months hunting, going out only 2-3 times per
week), bated away from me every time I entered the mews. One week
absence meant virtually training again from the start. (In the first
season going out daily she was not any tamer.) Nevertheless they are
fantastic birds to fly. It helps if youre not married (they scream
like you wont believe, even if taken as very late eyasses. They often
hate women (if youre male; I havent seen a woman fly one yet, but I
presume the reverse will hold true). Some are quiet, steady
dependable birds, but they are exceptional. Their quarry is basically
any bird between 100 and 1500g. The males even learn to take adult
guinea fowl (1500g). That is quite a match, 3:1 in weight. Once
footed on the head, the guinea gives up the fight. If not got on the
head, it can fight very much. Black spars very quickly learn to take
birds on the second flush; this is a bad habit, but can be prevented.
They are not keen on duck, although they will take them. I think its
all in the entering. Francolin certainly make up the bulk of the
quarry hunted here. Quail are a piece of cake for the muskets, doves
and pigeons are taken sporadically. Ground quarry (mongooses etc)
taken only very occasionally. Given good hunting grounds, the black
spar will probably take more quarry than any SA raptor in a season.
They are not my favorite raptor by any means, but I certainly enjoyed
the 5 years or so that I flew them. They are usually the first choice
of bird for general grade falconers after grading from learner
falconer.
Bye for now
Edmund
...........................................
Dr E E Oettle B.V.Sc. Ph.D
Fisantekuil
P O Box 152
7654 Wellington
South Africa
Tel: (+27)21-8641184
Fax: (+27)21-8735724


Dear jack

Unlike yourself i quote from what i have seen and not from reading too many old books, you really do need to get out a bit, :lol:

the ones i have seen were bred in this county, one bred by griff and, and one by paul beven, from lakelend bird of prey, one male flew at 1lb 6oz ,thats 22oz in my book, and the other 1lb 5 oz thats 21oz, of the females i have seen flown, griff flew one 1lb 15 oz, and chris allen flew a female 1lb 14 oz, all seem to be the same flying weight or near, none ever flew at 1lb in weight,
all birds flew feather well but would not take ground game, a chap who worked in the cafe at griffs flew his out the window at black stuff, very good but did not like our winters, a friend of mine had 2 pairs untill he sold them last year,

cheers

the wise man :lol:

[OhMyGod]

I flew some females which were 750 to 850+g.

Not for ground quarry unless you have some spare tails.

I have never seen them fly in uk but I cant think of any game they would not take well here.

People will always say they are more difficult than euros but I do not believe this is the case.

1 in 8 is melonistic

I saw an imprint once that was soooo soft, it went everywhere with no hood and did not bate or spaz out

[Jack Merlin]

I flew some females which were 750 to 850+g.

Martin says you didn't and he must know!!<VBG>

Quote from Nick Fox's "Understanding the Bird of Prey":
"The black sparrowhawk, red-headed merlin, and the New Zealand falcon have all started from very limited gene pools in Britain".

In other words, all the birds Martin mentions are probably all related and hardly representative of the species in such a large area as South Africa.

Some how I think I'd rather rely on information from Dr Oettle and OhMyGod than someone with an ego problem who is just on the forum to score points.

[OhMyGod]

Yes black spars are very common there.

The black spar will live in open country as well as very dense forests, so they will come in different sizes. We have goshawks of all different sizes and temperaments in europe. Africa is much larger and can support different variations with ease.

There is no need to imprint or get young ones as the quarry you are going to catch will be too large to carry mostly.

I've seen people get them and fly them without any training. Because they are so abundant you can get one, fly it then run and jump on it. I would not do it like this myself but it is probably quite common, passage birds are not likely to go far before making a kill.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

I know someone with a breeding pair in kent.
Also had a male for sale.

[Martin]

I flew some females which were 750 to 850+g.

Martin says you didn't and he must know!!<VBG>

Quote from Nick Fox's "Understanding the Bird of Prey":
"The black sparrowhawk, red-headed merlin, and the New Zealand falcon have all started from very limited gene pools in Britain".

In other words, all the birds Martin mentions are probably all related and hardly representative of the species in such a large area as South Africa.

Some how I think I'd rather rely on information from Dr Oettle and OhMyGod than someone with an ego problem who is just on the forum to score points.

oh dear Jack i seem to have it a little nerve, :lol: but like i said i can only state what i see with my own eyes and not read from books, yes they probably were close related, JPJ bred some with Griff from the WHC, and Paul Bevan, all same stuff, most of these birds were imprinted,
anyway Jack you have done the rounds on a few groups and chucked your dummy out on most, one thing for sure Jack you surname certainly matches your personality :wink:

[ColdZero]

"I've seen people get them and fly them without any training. Because they are so abundant you can get one, fly it then run and jump on it"

I'd like to see that, do you mean a totally wild bird will fly off the fist at quarry? not just fly off. Maybe i read it wrong.

[OhMyGod]

Some cowboy type falconers around various countries in africa will trap one, man it, get it feeding a bit then take them out hooded at high condition, and let them go at guinea fowl or other large birds.

They would never come back, but always make a kill in the end.

[Jack Merlin]

JPJ bred some with Griff from the WHC, and Paul Bevan, all same stuff, most of these birds were imprinted,

Martin: So you have rather a limited experience of black spars? That explains a lot.

In the future, it might be better to keep quiet rather than shout your mouth off about things of which you know nothing.

Still, if you keep dropping names as you do, I am sure the beginners on the forum will be suitably impressed -- if no one else!<g>

[Martin]

Dear old Jack

I have just mentioned the 3 main breeders of BS in the UK and have been in the same field hawking with BS, i have flown a male myself which i imprinted for use has a semen donor, so although my experience is limited i would guess its a little more than yours,
unless of course you have flown BS or seen one fly :?: till then keep reading them dusty old books, :lol:

and calm down i bit old man, you will give yourself heart attack.

[Jack Merlin]

I don't think you are fooling anyone here except yourself.

Unlike most groups, all anyone has to do is scroll up the page to see your statements contradicting a South African doctor of veterinary medicine and the poster OhMyGod, both who have experience of the birds in their native country!

Doesn't really need any more comment from me, does it? A case of "It is better to keep your mouth closed and appear a fool than open it and remove all doubt"! But then you have rather set the scene in your previous posts, haven't you?

[Martin]

I don't think you are fooling anyone here except yourself.

Unlike most groups, all anyone has to do is scroll up the page to see your statements contradicting a South African doctor of veterinary medicine and the poster OhMyGod, both who have experience of the birds in their native country!

Doesn't really need any more comment from me, does it? A case of "It is better to keep your mouth closed and appear a fool than open it and remove all doubt"! But then you have rather set the scene in your previous posts, haven't you?

ill take that has a no then jack, :oops: i refer to my previos post,

[Jack Merlin]

Martin: If you limit your "knowledge" to what only you or your friends have experienced, your sphere of knowledge is going to remain very limited. You already look pretty stupid by pretending to be an expert about which you know nothing.

The measurements of most birds of prey have been carefully collated and catalogued by qualified biologists for decades so I don't think your quoting weights from your secondhand experience of four birds from a limited gene pool is of much interest. Trying to use this to contradict those with actual experience of the birds in their native land is a bit silly.

Never mind, in the future you will have at least three more names to impress your impressionable friends with and, you never know, they may even elect you to another committee!

[Mr. Fong]

Oh for crying out loud! Gentlemen please can we get back on thread-
Is the black spar the African equivalent to a Cooper's hawk in terms of size and weight? Does anyone on the forum fly a BS now and if so, what weight is it? I know there are no averages but a rough guesstimate will work.

[Martin]

Martin: If you limit your "knowledge" to what only you or your friends have experienced, your sphere of knowledge is going to remain very limited. You already look pretty stupid by pretending to be an expert about which you know nothing.

The measurements of most birds of prey have been carefully collated and catalogued by qualified biologists for decades so I don't think your quoting weights from your secondhand experience of four birds from a limited gene pool is of much interest. Trying to use this to contradict those with actual experience of the birds in their native land is a bit silly.

Never mind, in the future you will have at least three more names to impress your impressionable friends with and, you never know, they may even elect you to another committee!

Jack

Like i said i can only speak from my own personal experiences and what i have seen with my own eyes, the heading was has anybody flown a BS , the answer is yes, and seen several fly, you have not, :lol:
i even gave you names of falconers who have flown them in the UK,
do you want tel nos has well :shock:
never been on any committee jack, must have me mixed up with someone else, anyway Jack i have better things to do that ARGUE with a self opinionated biggot who really needs to get out and see the real world, i know its lonely up their jack but for gods sake you must have something to do, :lol:
o and keep that dummy in, :wink:

[OhMyGod]

fong,

I think the coopers is more stocky, whereas the bs is a lanky sparrowhawk.

It is deffinately for catching birds and will break on the ground, however if you don't mind it looking broken and want to see what it is capable of you could get one to EASILY ( not passage) to take anything we have hear in the uk!!!!

Yes it will catch pheasants, Yes it will take bunnies, Yes it will even take our hares!! It will take gulls, it would take squirrells and just about everything else mate, and well.

I trapped 8 females which flew between 750 - 850g. I never bothered with the males. But I'm sure you can find them bigger than this. Males are much smaller.

[Mr. Fong]

They sound like proper psychos..... I like birds like that....

[Hawkmaster]

The female BlackSpar flies at around 850gr but will take prey up to 1500gr. Males fly at around 570gs (Their normal flying weight is ranges anywhere from 480g.s to 580gr) and have been trained to take prey up to the same weight as the females quarry too.

But with these birds it's not about size but about their aggressive hunting instinct, tenacious pursuit of prey and killing ability. In straight flight pursuits they will fly lower than the prey and when striking will throw their legs right out front to attack. Quite spectacular.

This is from a man that has flown them, I unfortunately never even saw one in 25 years of living in South Africa.

[Martin]

The female BlackSpar flies at around 850gr but will take prey up to 1500gr. Males fly at around 570gs (Their normal flying weight is ranges anywhere from 480g.s to 580gr) and have been trained to take prey up to the same weight as the females quarry too.

But with these birds it's not about size but about their aggressive hunting instinct, tenacious pursuit of prey and killing ability. In straight flight pursuits they will fly lower than the prey and when striking will throw their legs right out front to attack. Quite spectacular.

This is from a man that has flown them, I unfortunately never even saw one in 25 years of living in South Africa.

Most BS flown in the uk are imprints, the one i flown i imprinted and was hard work, he flew around 600gms, but was mental in company when out in the field, the female chris allen had was also an imprint, the black phase cracking looking bird, but it died of asper last year, i do not think they have proved themselves in the UK yet, and the price tag and availability put most falconers off, a good friend had 2 pairs and i could have bought then but too pricey, over £2000 for a female and males £1200, although the couple of breeders left on the UK have waiting lists,

[Tim Laycock]

I would dearly love a black spar female but I just cant get over the idea of paying out that kind of money, I mean you could get a realy big finnish gos for that kind of money and probably have a lot less bother with it, and certainly fly it at a wider variety of ground game.
I can believe that black spars will take rabbits and hares but its gonna be a bit rough and tumble isnt it.

[Jack Merlin]

never been on any committee jack, must have me mixed up with someone else,

Yes, I must be mixing you up. Could have sworn your name was Lee. Just thought there could not be too many falconers who have trouble spelling a two letter word! Apologies to the list but when I am subject to an unprovoked attack, especially by a coward hiding behind anonymity, I will always defend myself.

I saw both Jack Mavrogordato's black spar, also Eustace Poles's. I don't think either did much and both birds died before they had been in the UK for long. I have photos somewhere. I stayed with Eustace for a while in Devon and did not notice his spar being particularly nervous. If he had had more quarry available, he might have had more success but in those days there were very few pheasants in Devon. I think Mavro caught a pheasant but that was about it.

Scroll back to Dr Edmund Oettle's post (above). He gives a pretty good description of the black sparrowhawk. He is both BVSc and PhD.

[ColdZero]

certainly a bird i need to try, but seeing £2000 fly away wouldn't happen twice.
I had no idea they were capable of taking hare! i always thought of them as larger spars, taking hen pheasant at best.

[Tim Laycock]

well if a black spar had a mind to it could easily overhaul a hare and probably foot it very convincingly but I cant see it keeping hold for very long.

[BlackShaheen]

Hi guys. I am new to the forum and have been reading with interest the blackspar thread here. I was fortunate enough to fly a Blackspar musket in South Africa for two seasons on Red-wing Francolin and it was the best hawking of my life. The musket was a regular phase northern bird (black and white) and taken as a brancher. Super aggressive but never as tediously insane as my Eurpoean Spars and muskets used to be. He weighed in at 550 grams (don't know what this is in ounces) and flew Francolin brilliantly. My mate flew his sister at about 900 grams! They are HUGE birds in spar terms. The female would tackle GuineaFowl well but the little musket (Muskets are little at 550 grams- go figure) would bottle out at the last.
I would be dubious about hawking ground game with them and I should point out that I have never tried but...they are true Spars and are lanky like a Spar even though they have BIG BIG feet. It is very much a bird hunter and although I imagine they could hold rabbits (not sure about the muskets though...) I wouldn't really want to try. If you're lucky enough to fly one of these amazing hawks then do yourself as favour and fly it on birds exclusively to gtet the best out of it. I feel that they would reach a rabbit so rapidly that the sport might be missing from the flight and all you would be left with was a scrap on the ground and broken decks for your trouble if you see what I mean. In the UK I would fly them at Ducks and Pheasants and especially Partridge...and I'm not kidding when I say that they could give Red Grouse a run for their money all day long. Now that would be some hawking! Good luck to everyone and keep those budgies in the air.

[Hawkmaster]

Welcome BlackShaheen! Hpe you are goingf to add a lot more?

What you doing over in Dubai?

[Jack Merlin]

Hi BlackShaheen,

Firstly, welcome to the list. Always good to learn something new about falconry from someone with practical experience.

I turned down a black spar last year offered in exchange for a pup on the assumption that they would not like the climate in the Scottish Highlands. (Horizontal sleet at the moment and bloody unpleasant).

My tiercel gos stays out 365 days in the year on the trolley system (running wire). I wonder how a black spar would stand up to that? Every few years the temperature plummets, minus 25 a few years back. I found Nigerian lanners developed oedema (water blisters -- can't spell) on the wing joint in temperatures below zero but the condition disappeared when I installed heaters. Would I get similar problems with a BS?

The next question is persistence. I have had several flights with the gos in excess of half a mile (measured off the plan) and I am led to believe black spars might be even more persistent. That would take me well over my boundary! I only have access to 800 acres!! But I DO want to catch a red grouse!!<g> Ground game does not interest me.

I love bird hawking, especialy over a good pointer, and I love spars. I have flown severl Euro spars trapped between fledging and dispersal and I would dearly like to try a black spar, especially as I am exepcting another visit from a South African (!), but I wonder if this is wise?

Most of the black spars in the UK seem to come to a sticky end, much like their smaller cousins.

[Martin]

Hi guys. I am new to the forum and have been reading with interest the blackspar thread here. I was fortunate enough to fly a Blackspar musket in South Africa for two seasons on Red-wing Francolin and it was the best hawking of my life. The musket was a regular phase northern bird (black and white) and taken as a brancher. Super aggressive but never as tediously insane as my Eurpoean Spars and muskets used to be. He weighed in at 550 grams (don't know what this is in ounces) and flew Francolin brilliantly. My mate flew his sister at about 900 grams! They are HUGE birds in spar terms. The female would tackle GuineaFowl well but the little musket (Muskets are little at 550 grams- go figure) would bottle out at the last.
I would be dubious about hawking ground game with them and I should point out that I have never tried but...they are true Spars and are lanky like a Spar even though they have BIG BIG feet. It is very much a bird hunter and although I imagine they could hold rabbits (not sure about the muskets though...) I wouldn't really want to try. If you're lucky enough to fly one of these amazing hawks then do yourself as favour and fly it on birds exclusively to gtet the best out of it. I feel that they would reach a rabbit so rapidly that the sport might be missing from the flight and all you would be left with was a scrap on the ground and broken decks for your trouble if you see what I mean. In the UK I would fly them at Ducks and Pheasants and especially Partridge...and I'm not kidding when I say that they could give Red Grouse a run for their money all day long. Now that would be some hawking! Good luck to everyone and keep those budgies in the air.

Hi Blackshaeen


At last somebody who does quote from books and speaks his own personal experiences, your flying weights are similar to what we have in the UK, has i said ours are imprints and of course the weather climate is much more harsher over here, so has any GOOD austringer knows this can mean a large difference in hunting weights, higher weights in colder weather conditions, i would never fly a Female BS on our hares, no way, i do not think they are built for it, also all the ones i have seen were feather birds,, and very aerial, unlike many of the Goshawks i have flown, these BS would climb up with their quarry instead of trying to take underneath like most accipiters, best flights we had was crows and rooks, and he would take them on at any distance, a good Friend used to kite train his female, and instead of ringing up to take the lure falcon like she used to stand on her tail and power up to take the lure, but it was at 200 ft,

cheers

Martin.

[Shaun Byrne]

Martin
I had the pleasure of seeing Chris Allens BS up close and she really was a beautiful looking bird, I was gutted when he told me she had died.

[BlackShaheen]

Hey guys,
Many thanks for the welcome. It's a real pleasure to find equally obsessed people out there. Makes me feel less mad! As for the temperature issue...I flew my musket in the Transvaal which is high rolling grasslands very like your moorland. At these altitudes in the Drakensburgs it is quite cold (not minus 25's!) but quite cold and it would freeze mid-winter. We even had a snow storm on several occasions which you wouldn't expect from an African country. The Black Spars were living in these conditions as wild healthy birds and they were prolific in the area. My musket never suffered from the cold but inevitably he was eating like a horse to keep his weight on. I would suggest that keeping a Black wired outside 24/7 would be an issue and I would definately mew him indoors over the winter nights just to keep that frost at bay but I imagine he should cope admirably with the winter days. As with any of the short-wings I have been lucky enough to fly I find that once they are well entered weight stops being an issue when hunting and I have always flown birds as fat as possible. This is standard practice for all of us of course but I find the short-wings to be particularly amiable at high weight ONCE THEY ARE WELL ENTERED. The musket would eagerly come to an empty glove after a failed chase simply to use me as a suitable vantage point. I remind you that this was grasslands and his choices for vantage points were very limited. Flying this hawk in woodland would inevitably be a different story and weight would become more of an issue I am sure.
I said before that this was the best hawking of my life (so far) and this is true mainly because of their persistence. the best flight I had was a red-wing chase (first phase) over what must have been a kilometre before the Francolin put in. The Musket went hungry that day but it still gives me goose-bumps to remember seeing these two dots pumping hell-for-leather parallel to the horizon! If they are not spoilt with too many second-phase game birds and close slips early on then they do become exceptionaly tenacious which is their great plus point. They are clever though (like any short-wing) and can get lazy very easily.
We worked our hawks over English-pointers and it was an extremely effective kind of set-up for these birds as it takes away the opportunity to fly at check birds. I think that rough-hawking with any bird is going to throw up heaps more problems than flying over pointers in grassland, the birds are just so focused on the set-up and the distractions are limited which leads to the opportunity to fly heavier etc...etc...
I never kite-worked my hawk but heard stories from the SA boys about it and yes, they say the birds just pump vertical which must be awesome. The frankolin we flew at are not high fliers so I have only witnessed tail-chasing but I think they could do some good work on rising ducks, they really are that quick.
I am waffling on and on now...In short if you get the chance to fly one do it. I am a sure that they are the best hawk I have ever worked with. They are hardier than many African raptors becuase they are prolific far from the equator. They do occur as far north as Kenya but they are most common in SA and Zimbabwe. My only gripe is that God chose to give them juvenile colours, I will never understand why he bothered!

I am in Dubai now for the last 7 years and work a team of Peregrines, Barbaries and Balckshaheens in pigeon-control flights here. I hesitate to use the phrase 'Proffessional Falconer' as it makes me sound like I know what I'm doing ...but it is how I have been lucky enough to earn a living all my life. I have flown in Europe, South Africa and now the Middle East. For every season that passes the more I relise I don't understand about these bloody birds!
Cheers guys and good-luck with your hawking.

[Jack Merlin]

<Hey guys,

.....We even had a snow storm on several occasions which you wouldn't expect from an African country. .....>

Corresponded with Trevor Wostenholm (Big Bad Joe of setter fame) over several years and he was cursing the snow more than once so I know you have that!
<I would suggest that keeping a Black wired outside 24/7 would be an issue...and I would definately mew him indoors over the winter nights just to keep that frost at bay but I imagine he should cope admirably with the winter days>>

My dogs (English pointers) are kennelled outside with no bedding (1 inch of concrete over two inches of expanded polystyrene) all year round and suffer from the heat if brought indoors, so dogs, at least, acclimatize. The gos doesn't give a damn. The problem would be avoiding the cold anywhere, even indoors, this far north!!<vbg> We get hardened to it but whether a black spar would is a moot point!
<.... As with any of the short-wings I have been lucky enough to fly I find that once they are well entered weight stops being an issue when hunting and I have always flown birds as fat as possible. This is standard practice for all of us of course but I find the short-wings to be particularly amiable at high weight ONCE THEY ARE WELL ENTERED.>

Agreed. My tiercel gos is now flat across the chest but at feed time you would think he was starving to death. As Edmund Bert (see link at signature) says it is a matter of having your hawk in love with you. Nicely put.
<I said before that this was the best hawking of my life (so far) and this is true mainly because of their persistence. the best flight I had was a red-wing chase (first phase) over what must have been a kilometre before the Francolin put in. The Musket went hungry that day but it still gives me goose-bumps to remember seeing these two dots pumping hell-for-leather parallel to the horizon! If they are not spoilt with too many second-phase game birds and close slips early on then they do become exceptionaly tenacious which is their great plus point.>

The supreme quarry up here would be woodcock which can come through in large numbers. I've had in excess of six flights in a short day with a gos but they are too fast. In level flight, the gos seems to be a match for speed but after a couple of hundred yards, the woodcock starts to go up at 35 degrees and the gos pulls off. They are also too fast for a perergine in level flight, though easily knocked down in a stoop. At the end of last season, the gos started to refuse them after about 50 yards unless he was coming out of a tree which I encouraged. Level flight is clearly hopeless. All these were flown over English pointers, some points on the edge of cover (which the woodcock did not drop back into so they must be pretty confident) and a few in the open. This is not a slow gos and he has taken a lot of pheasants and partridges in the air.
< We worked our hawks over English-pointers and it was an extremely effective kind of set-up for these birds as it takes away the opportunity to fly at check birds.>

Discussed hawking dogs with two falconers last night. When I remarked that dogs are 50% of falconry I was voted down and told it was way higher than that! I do not understand how some manage without them, or worse put up with bad dogs<g>
<In short if you get the chance to fly one do it.>

Well, I certainly have something to think about if your fellow countryman offers the possibility when he visits here! Euro spars, if I had more suitable country and quarry, would be my first choice over a gos, but you must cut your cloth according to what's available!

<as it makes me sound like I know what I'm doing>

Only a bloody fool thinks he has learnt all there is to learn!<g>

Thanks BlackShaheen.

[BlackShaheen]

Hey JackMerlin,
I like the sound of Woodcock flights. I have heard great things about these birds but never been fortunate enough to hawk them. One day... one day...
I have to agree with the essential nature of having a dog involved in my hawking. As for bad dogs... they can definately age you rapidly, what a nightmare!
Cheers for now and goodluck.

[Jack Merlin]

I like the sound of Woodcock flights. I have heard great things about these birds but never been fortunate enough to hawk them. One day... one day...

We usually expect the woodcock to arrive with the new moon in November and then they can stay (or perhaps keep trickling through) until late December. But if the weather is right, large numbers come through in a short time. There are defined migration routes. Also, snow on the hills and hard frosts drive them to the low ground and along the burns. Not suitable quarry for the casual visitor as relying on the calendar could mean you miss out altogether so its best to be a local! Some years they don't seem to come through in large numbers at all but they probably still come, just are more spread out and not concentrated in suitable feeding areas. Super little birds and I look forward to their arrival every year!

[Hawkmaster]

Since getting my Brittany I have now also found loads of Woodcock and Snipe.

I would like to get a couple of each to steady him on them and get him pointing. any ideas where?

[OutFlying]

as a pup, if exposed to different types of bird, it will begin to point them all - it will only stop pointing them if you deter him from pointing stuff that you don't want. So really you don't need a woodcock or snipe (you can't get them anyway) - just work your dog in a location where they are and heap loads of praise onto him when he points the species your after and give no praise when he points something your not after.
Outflying.
ps no doubt Derry will put it into better wording.. :lol: :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

The wording is pretty good!<g> But people get to the same destination by different routes. Doesn't mean they are doing it wroing so long as they get there!

Under my method, the "Sit" is the key to a whole lot of things. You can bark it out and if the dog is trained, it will snap down flat as if shot. Or you can hiss gently (the other extreme), so the dog just hesitates, or points.

I use the latter to slow a dog down when he is going in to birds. All my dogs know the signal and even the ones that haven't yet worked on birds pick up on the body language of the others when I maybe hiss because there is a pheasant just outside the fence of the dog run. They know something unusual is happening and they had beter stay alert.

OK, every time I see my dog flush a snipe or a woodcock, I would call it in and take it down wind of where the bird rose (on the lead if necessary). Then, when I notice it has the scent, I'll hiss and go into pointing mode myself! Dogs are very quick to pick up on your body language and if you are in tune with the dog it should start pointing the birds you want. Use the same signal every time your dog points and it will cotton on real quick.

As OutFlying says, if you are convinced your dog is pointing a species which is not considered game, just call your dog and walk off smartly. Show the dog you are not interested.

IF I can shoot a snipe or a woodcock, I will let the dog sniff it, then throw it up wind, then after a pause, let the dog go forward and encourage a point. This also works well.

I think I should point out (!) that some dogs do not point naturally so OutFlying's method won't always work, or it might take a long time and a lot of game to work with some dogs. A short cut is to use another experienced dog as a teacher.

Lots of ways to get where you want to go!

[OutFlying]

Thanks for that Jack, I hadn't thought of a dog that didn't point readily - that's limited experience for you, never had that problem yet.

Outflying. :oops:

[Moritz]

Hi Guys,
I think the black sparrowhawk sounds like a fantastic bird. What level of experience do you need to train them? I would like to fly one one day. Should I first train some Goshawks befor going for a Balck Spar? They interrested my especially, because I prefer bird hunting over ground game. Would it be possible to import some of them from Africa? Do they need CITES?
You guys are so right about the dogs, I can not weight to get my dog. It will make my live so much easier. I will have someone who can help me with the training.
Thanks a lot

Moritz

[OutFlying]

Hi Guys,
I think the black sparrowhawk sounds like a fantastic bird. What level of experience do you need to train them? I would like to fly one one day. Should I first train some Goshawks befor going for a Balck Spar? They interrested my especially, because I prefer bird hunting over ground game. Would it be possible to import some of them from Africa? Do they need CITES?
You guys are so right about the dogs, I can not weight to get my dog. It will make my live so much easier. I will have someone who can help me with the training.
Thanks a lot

Moritz

I think the clue's in the title of the thread - does anyone fly a black spar ? It doesn't seem that way in the Uk, why do you think this is ? Could it be that their not suitable to our game or weather conditions, or that they can't do anything better than a northern gos or european sparrowhawk in this country.
From reading (not real life) it seems they are harder to handle than a euro gos - so if you were to go for one than previous experience with another accipiter would certainly be a big advantage. Finally if it was easy to import one from another country, there would be plenty here already with plenty of breeders importing already - but this isn't the case......
Outflying.

[BlackShaheen]

Hey Moritz.

"...or that they can't do anything better than a northern gos or european sparrowhawk in this country. "

Nicely put Outflying.

I have responded to Jack Merlins questions about whether the Blackspar would manage in the UK and my response was to give my honest opinion on the subject. Moritz is asking a very different question. I have assumed and believe (although it's really none of my business!) that Jackmerlin has substantial experience of his native short-wings and is keen (and why not?) to investigate non-indiginous birds in his particular hawking experiences. Your line of questioning would lead me to believe that you possibly have less experience with the native birds of the UK. I would always suggest that you work with birds that are native to the environment before considering a foreign species, out of interest I think this also applies to the much maligned Harris. I do not want to hold the Blackspar up on some pedestal as the ultimate hawk, this makes them sound much more difficult hawks than they actually are. I had far greater problems with my Nissus females in the UK than the Black Musket in SA (I remind you that I only worked with one which is hardly a position from which to preach from)...but you will have infinately more trouble with a Blackspar in the UK than you would in Southern Africa. The same applies to trying to train Nissus in Zimbabwe I imagine. You see where I am going with this?
Would it help to train a Gos or two first? Not really Moritz. The Gos is not the issue. A Spar is a very different animal indeed, be it a Nissus or a Coopers...etc.
I think the question you must answer for yourself is what do you hope to achieve in your hawking? As Outflying pointed out, there is nothing in your backyard that a BlackSpar can catch that a Gos or Nissus can't. She will do it in a different style and manner but the bag will be equally full or empty either way. For the Blackspar to survive the experience she must be in the hands of someone who is already very familiar with the manner in which his native hawks operate.
I don't want to put you off Moritz...at least not forever, but maybe you should look into working native birds a lot longer before looking abroad. The grass is always greener...
Sorry for preaching but I have your best interests at heart mate.
Maybe you could let us all know what experience of hawks you have and we could suggest what might suit you situation best at this time.
If I have got the wrong end of the stick entirely then I apologise as it is very late in my neck of the woods and it's already been a long day.
Cheers and good-luck everyone.

[OhMyGod]

Isn't that hard to get to SA moritz. There are loads there redy for training.

[Moritz]

Thx for your exelent answer. You are right about the training of the native birds. I will have to work with them for some more time. I want to start flying Shortwings I just want to find the best bird to start of. I will have help from experienced falconers. I would like to fly a black spar one day and the question, because of the import was more general. Nobody could put me of anything related to falconry so no problem.

Thank you very much for the good answer.

Moritz

[Jack Merlin]

The obstacles to fly a BS here in the UK, I would suggest, are (a) expense, and (b) space.

At the moment, the females seem to go for about 2,000GBP and the males 1,500GBP. That is a lot of money for an unknown quantity. BlackShaheen says he thinks they would cope with the climate. But we don't really know.

The second thing that worries me is their persistence. I currently have a lot of fun on 800 acres with a male gos. But with flights quite often exceeding half a mile it gets a bit hairy at times. One of my neighbours organizes shooting parties, the others are a bit territorial and would not welcome my intrusion looking for lost birds!

Last, I just got a female gos to go with my male and got rid of a peregrine tiercel in the process. What I am saying is that two short wings are really one too many.

[Jack Merlin]

I want to start flying Shortwings I just want to find the best bird to start of.

Moritz: You could probably not do much better than a female parent reared spar. I know spars are not advised as a beginner's bird but with care and some guidance there is no reason why you should not succeed.

Personally, I don't like imprints and I think the discipline of having to man a hawk is very good if you expect to go on to a gos or BS.

Harris Hawks are great birds for what they are, but I am sure they spoil a lot of falconers who think that all hawks must be that easy or there is something wrong with the bird (and not the falconer!).

[OutFlying]

Jack, I feel if they had much more to offer than what's already available more people would have jumped on the band wagon and started breeding them at that price - if they offered something that special above a native spar or euro gos people would definately be flying them in this country. i think its the same with Americans wanting finnish gosses over their own or spars over coopers hawks or vice versa in this country (grass is greener on the other side). Coopers are highly rated in their own country but don't seem to do a lot over here.

Regarding persistance, a good fit confident gos will continue after it's feathered prey under it either loses sight of it or the prey goes high (i.e duck or corvid) - but generally will fly as far as the partridge or pheasant can fly - how much more persistant can a hawk get.
Outflying.

ps once you've bought and flown one, I'll get one as well :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

Outflying,

"Nothing as odd as folk".

I think there are only a handful of people breeding Euro spars in the USA. I think the answer to that is they don't know what they are missing. The Coop is apparently keener on catching quarry in cover while the spar is a pure bird hunter. And they have bob white quail!!! AAaargh!! Makes me green with envy!

Then look what the Americans do with red tails and how we don't think much of them.

I have never subscribed to the theory that because more people aren't doing something, it can't be worth doing, or even that it can't be done.

I accept what you say about the persistence of gosses. But from what BlackShaeen is saying, the BS DOES go up after them! That could be embarassing in a small place like the UK with trees and hills all over the place.

One day I might give one a try, but I suspect it won't be in this life!<g>

[OutFlying]

Jack,
I don't think its a question of money, £2000 for a female blackspar - £2000 for a finnish female gos or £3500 for a russian female gos. Plenty of money being spent out there.
I agree you don't have to do what others do or your views on it can't be done, but surely those cash hungry breeders would be onto a sure fire hit breeding black spars, they only take up the same avairy space as gosses.
Outflying.

ps you'll struggle flying it off a cloud with a halo and a harp in your other hand in the next life, or if you go to another destination the heat might be excessive. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Moritz]

Hi Guys,
the female pr spar sounds good, I have seen one just yesterday killing a black bird 20 feet besides me. She is allways around and some how is not really scared of people. She ones killed a pigeon in the middle of my schools crickit lawn, 20 people standing around and watching. She stayed there until her crop was bursting. I have some fotos of her. I will scan them in and post them.
I think I could get a spar quite easy, I have got the time for manning, I will put my FHH down for breeding this year anyway so I will have one spar and one falcon and the falcon will be imprinted and there for not a lot manning is needed. Do you think a Max Power transmitter is small enough for a Female Spar?

Thx Moritz

[OutFlying]

No it's too big.

[Moritz]

Thx

[OutFlying]

Hi Guys,
the female pr spar sounds good, I have seen one just yesterday killing a black bird 20 feet besides me. She is allways around and some how is not really scared of people. She ones killed a pigeon in the middle of my schools crickit lawn, 20 people standing around and watching. She stayed there until her crop was bursting. I have some fotos of her. I will scan them in and post them.
I think I could get a spar quite easy, I have got the time for manning, I will put my FHH down for breeding this year anyway so I will have one spar and one falcon and the falcon will be imprinted and there for not a lot manning is needed. Do you think a Max Power transmitter is small enough for a Female Spar?

Thx Moritz

Moritz I stick to just flying one bird, unless you don't work. Will you have the time and game to fly 2 birds ? A spar if to any good will need to be flown most days, who said imprints don't require manning or time each day spent with them. I found imprints to be more time demanding then p/r.

Outflying

[Moritz]

I am still going to school, but from july on I will work for a breeder in england. He gives me a falcon. I will first work sometime and see if I have enough time for two birds. I will dicuse with him the falcon, pr or imprinted, to find out what is best for me. I think he will be able to give me advice with the sparrow as well. I just will not ask him now, because he is very bussy with the breeding. At what time of the year are the Sparrows going to be ready?
I never said that imprint falcons do not need maning but they do not need as much time, that is my experience with my old falconry teachers birds.

Thx

Moritz

[OutFlying]

Don't confuse somebody else's older imprint with one your going to do yourself, the first season will take up plenty of your time. To fly two different types of hawk / falcon - just work out how much time you'd need to arrive to the land your going to fly on, then fly and catch something. Then return to collect your second bird and start again.

[Jack Merlin]

That's good advice. One spar is enough for anyone.

[Tim Laycock]

Indeed :?

[SparsTheOne]

i just came across this.

jase

[Hawkmaster]

In a good old Eucalyptus tree.

[Finnish]

Just come back from club tonight and been told Black Spar's just laid one egg.Just for people interested.

[OhMyGod]

Good luck, what's gonna happen to them if successful?

[Finnish]

Iam not sure you can only ask the breeder that.

[RabbitHawker]

The Black Spars we fly here are much smaller than many flown in SA, it may be like the Gos, there are different populations of different size etc., or it may be due to inbreeding from a small gene pool. A friend used to fly a female in SA at ~1000g, pretty much the same size as a german gos, and it was a real killing machine

[Jack Merlin]

I think someone posted that the gene pool here in the UK is from a few imports and judging by the numbers of subspecies of sparrowhawks and the size of Africa, there cannot be much doubt that there will be variations in the black spar populations.

Don't know if size in hawks is inherited in a similar way to size in dogs but from 40 years experience I can tell you it is easier to breed small pointers and setters than large ones. Hence the miniature whippets which are now so common at field trials!

I queried the BS's ability to stand up to a Scottish winter and someone replied, either here or privately, that black spars are also found in parts of Africa that get extremely cold -- so that's another characteristic in which they vary; tolerance to cold. Presumably the bigger birds come from the south and they will get smaller nearer the equator.

1000g would be a very nice size for all UK feathered game, but anything from 750g would be good. I still think they haven't yet been properly tested in the UK, much like Euro spars in the USA which ought to beat the natives on quail hands down.

[OutFlying]

1000g, easily big enough to handle any Uk gamebirds.

[SakerYZF]

Someone mentioned flying them at "the black stuff" out of the windows of cars, well can someone enlighten me to as to how well it did? a Male going by the average flying weight sounds ideal for this kinda stuff , how do they compare to goshawks, in tearms of this kind of flight , would be interesting to see how the would both compare.