Russian Goshawks

[Martin]

Hello

Has anybody flew one of the Russian Gosses that have been sold in the UK this year ? if so how did it go and what size did he or she make ? and any other comments please,

cheers

[HawkMan69UK]

no comment......dont ask.....

[OutFlying]

I'll ask

[Gaz]

Best forgotten :!:

[OutFlying]

Martin,
It seems to be a closed subject. Something tells me they weren't everything there cracked up to be. Maybe just another fad for people with too much money. Try one for yourself and then buy a finnish gos instead and go on holiday with the change :D :) :lol:
Outflying.

[HawkMan69UK]

64 rabbits 12 hares numerous pheasants few ducks...told you not to ask
:mrgreen:

[Shaun Byrne]

Martin,
It seems to be a closed subject. Something tells me they weren't everything there cracked up to be. Maybe just another fad for people with too much money. Try one for yourself and then buy a finnish gos instead and go on holiday with the change :D :) :lol:
Outflying.

Yes Martin, go get yourself a Finnish Gos instead of that battered old Common Buzzard you are flying.

[OutFlying]

64 rabbits 12 hares numerous pheasants few ducks...told you not to ask
:mrgreen:

Did you not get out much :lol:
What differences did you observe with it compared to a Northern Goshawk ? Quoting a head count doesn't provide enough information to form an opinion on. With rabbits - huge season totals can be achieved but it can be obtained with something that isn't anything special. Was it an imprint / p.r, flying weight, behavior etc.
Outflying.

[HawkMan69UK]

sorry did i not say that was taken in a week

[HawkMan69UK]

just kidding..... friend of mine had one not imprint but i think it was raised with imprinted parent so it was vocal flying wieght was soppossed to be up near the 3 1/2 pound ..but it flew at around 3 if not under that the feet were huge but it was a lot of money for a gos when a finnish would do excactly the same..it did end up with a huge head count but i would personly stick with a finnish.. :mrgreen: :lol:

[OutFlying]

just kidding..... friend of mine had one not imprint but i think it was raised with imprinted parent so it was vocal flying wieght was soppossed to be up near the 3 1/2 pound ..but it flew at around 3 if not under that the feet were huge but it was a lot of money for a gos when a finnish would do excactly the same..it did end up with a huge head count but i would personly stick with a finnish.. :mrgreen: :lol:

Thanks for the reply,
Did you see it fly ? any difference in flight style i.e wingbeat etc.
Outflying

[HawkMan69UK]

went out a quite a few times with it no major diffrance apart from if it did catch someting the footing was awsome not a lot got away once it had been tagged ...not sure there worth the money on just that attribute

[OutFlying]

once in adult plumage is there any difference in colouring or tail length etc compared to Northern Goshawks ?

[HawkMan69UK]

its going through the moult now so dont know that one mate

[Hawkmaster]

Do you have any pics to compare sizes HM69UK?

[Gaz]

Look at "The Beast" thread,she hunts at 3Lb and as for size difference between her and the russian,none!..you couldn"t see where the extra £1500 went.. :mrgreen:

[HawkMan69UK]

true :drinkers:

[OutFlying]

Look at "The Beast" thread,she hunts at 3Lb and as for size difference between her and the russian,none!..you couldn"t see where the extra £1500 went.. :mrgreen:

Hello Gaz,
Sorry I wasn't on the forum when the "Beast" thread was ongoing. 3lbs hunting weight is a fair sized gos, the largest parent reared female gos I've heard of - who bred her ? I see your from Bristol - I've had 2 good males bred from Bristol must be something in the air down there :lol:
Outflying

[Finnish]

The breeder was a guy called Don he bread 16 Gos hawks last year.

The Beast

[Finnish]

one more

[OutFlying]

here a few more

[OutFlying]

last one for now

[OutFlying]

nice picture of tail sheath

[SparsTheOne]

there i turned it around 4 you m8.

jase.

[SparsTheOne]

thats a very very nice gos m8.

jase.

[Finnish]

8)

[Gaz]

Hello Gaz,
Sorry I wasn't on the forum when the "Beast" thread was ongoing
Go to Shortwings,and click on "The beast" dude :mrgreen:

[ColdZero]

I still don't understand the fascination everyone seems to have with huge goshawks. If a beginner said they wanted to get the biggest harris he could find, most would advise against it saying a smaller bird was more than adequate for british quarry. So what makes gos' so different? The largest quarry is hare, but for the most part it will be bunnies and gamebirds, so isn't speed more important?

Is there something i have missed?

[Gaz]

Deleted

[HawkMan69UK]

who would advise not getting a big bird weather it be male or female hh or a gos .i wouldent and i would say no one else would either the speed of a gos is awsome and if your lucky and its big the impact is far greater same with a hh.. and of course it my cock is bigger than your cock :lol:

[Gaz]

deleted

[ColdZero]

well EVERYONE is spoke to on the phone about getting a harris when i was just starting told me to forget about weight. So far no-one has told me to get a large bird, many have said either a large male or small female. This is what i believe aswell.

I don't know much about gos', why are they different? A bigger bird will be less agile wouldn't it? Correct me if i'm wrong.

A larger bird have a higher impact yes, and may get kicked off less, but the falconer is there to dispatch quarry.

Like i said i don't know much about gos', just tell me why they are different please :twisted:

[Finnish]

The BIGGER the better. :prayer:

[Mr. Fong]

CZ- I watched a rabbit drag my 1lb 5 1/2 oz male gos with me doing an olympic sprint to catch it!! The little guy couldn't stop it cold without some help. As for speed, the male gos is initially quicker than the female ( the first 100 yards) and that's it.

[OutFlying]

CZ- I watched a rabbit drag my 1lb 5 1/2 oz male gos with me doing an olympic sprint to catch it!! The little guy couldn't stop it cold without some help. As for speed, the male gos is initially quicker than the female ( the first 100 yards) and that's it.

The initial speed advantage when flying at feather determines the type of flight to be encountered, either a mid-air bind or long tail chase resulting in a kill on the put in. (don't fly them on the rise, not sporting and too easy).
Mike McDermott believes male gosses are also faster throughout the whole flight, but I don't know how it would be proved. All game flies at different speeds and also each gos would also be different.
If flying at ground game a female will have a good advantage due to its greater weight and foot size to subdue its prey but from flying finnish males at feathered prey - they have taken cock pheasants / drake mallards with ease and don't feel the need to fly anything bigger.
Outflying

[OutFlying]

well EVERYONE is spoke to on the phone about getting a harris when i was just starting told me to forget about weight. So far no-one has told me to get a large bird, many have said either a large male or small female. This is what i believe aswell.

I don't know much about gos', why are they different? A bigger bird will be less agile wouldn't it? Correct me if i'm wrong.

A larger bird have a higher impact yes, and may get kicked off less, but the falconer is there to dispatch quarry.

Like i said i don't know much about gos', just tell me why they are different please :twisted:

It not only about size ColdZero but the type of gos, the further north the larger the gos. I've found the larger finnish gosses to be steadier and easier to fly. Also the german / czech males are quite small and will struggle on large game birds.
Outflying.

[Jack Merlin]

I watched a rabbit drag my 1lb 5 1/2 oz male gos

I doubt whether a rabbit could drag even a 1lb gos if caught by the head. Coops regularly catch rabbits in the US, but then their rabbits are smaller.

One of those musty old books I've been reading (see signature) recommends always transferring a gos to the head of the quarry and letting it gorge there as soon as possible. This teaches the gos that that's the part to aim for. It works.

Last season, my male (1lb 10oz), trained this way, was regularly catching 3.6lb rabbits and mature cock pheasants, all taken by the head. Many of the pheasants had no mark on them but were stone dead by the time I got up to the kill.

Rabbit hawking with a male is. in my opinion, much more sporting than with a heavier bird but still gets a bit boringly predictable over bird hawking. My gos will take 80% of rabbits bolted by ferrets on open ground, all by the head.

OK, 1lb 10oz is a lot heavier than 1lb 5oz but there's not a lot difference to a 2lb German gos catching an 8lb hare. I just don't want to lug a 3lb goshawk around all day for the privilege of hearing my friends say "Oooh! Aaah! Lookatthat!" I use a goshawk for sport, not for "whacking stuff".

In sport, the two contenders ought to be fairly matched. Well, that used to be the idea! If I wanted slaughter, I'd take a job in an abattoir.

[Falconry Equipment International]

That's it precisely,HawkMan69UK. Another aspect that has not been discussed is thta smaller hawks tend to be more agile in the air, yes I woulod go for a finnish if I was to have another Gos( I had accipters for 28 years!), but it would be a male
J

[OutFlying]

That's it precisely,HawkMan69UK. Another aspect that has not been discussed is thta smaller hawks tend to be more agile in the air, yes I woulod go for a finnish if I was to have another Gos( I had accipters for 28 years!), but it would be a male
J

That's it precisely, with what post Screaming Jay ?

[Mr. Fong]

Well... I really must correct myself, I meant to say my boy got his @$$ kicked by rabbits, despite nailing them on the head... He was a german gos who was pretty small.

[OutFlying]

Well... I really must correct myself, I meant to say my boy got his @$$ kicked by rabbits, despite nailing them on the head... He was a german gos who was pretty small.

Agreed - When I flew a male harris at 1-8 he took a lot of rabbits by the head, but if he didn't get it spot on and tried to hold from the side or hit it head on - the rabbit always got the better of him. they just don't have the stopping power of larger female hawks.

Outflying

[Falconry Equipment International]

So sorry OutFlying
, the post that i replied to seems to have gone missing, anyway the poster was saying 'big w@£ly syndrome'
hope this now makes sense
J

[Falconry Equipment International]

Well... I really must correct myself, I meant to say my boy got his @$$ kicked by rabbits, despite nailing them on the head... He was a german gos who was pretty small.
Good day mr Fong
What was the main quarry you flew him at
regards
J

[Jack Merlin]

Quote[When I flew a male harris at 1-8 he took a lot of rabbits by the head, but if he didn't get it spot on and tried to hold from the side or hit it head on - the rabbit always got the better of him].

I was sent a copy of the video "Battles on the High Ground". In that video there is footage of (I think) a 1lb 6oz male Harris Hawk that was regularly taking Scottish white hares. I was VERY impressed! This comes from someone who has no interest in HHs and doesn't want to own one!

I'll accept that a small hawk may want lots of exposure before he acquires the knack, even if he knows he should be aiming for the head, but isn't that what sport is all about?

I've no desire to own a hawk that can out-fly everything and only has to stand on a rabbit to render it immobile! But then I am not out to impress anyone, just aiming to feel that electric excitement up and down my spine when things DO come together!

[Mr. Fong]

SJ

Had him on rabbits initially but then I went for partridge (when they were about) and he chased magpies like a man possessed... The only problem being they would hit the hedgerow and he would as well.

[OutFlying]

Quote[When I flew a male harris at 1-8 he took a lot of rabbits by the head, but if he didn't get it spot on and tried to hold from the side or hit it head on - the rabbit always got the better of him].

I was sent a copy of the video "Battles on the High Ground". In that video there is footage of (I think) a 1lb 6oz male Harris Hawk that was regularly taking Scottish white hares. I was VERY impressed! This comes from someone who has no interest in HHs and doesn't want to own one!

I'll accept that a small hawk may want lots of exposure before he acquires the knack, even if he knows he should be aiming for the head, but isn't that what sport is all about?

I've no desire to own a hawk that can out-fly everything and only has to stand on a rabbit to render it immobile! But then I am not out to impress
anyone, just aiming to feel that electric excitement up and down my spine when things DO come together!


Never flown a female neither, I was just pointing out the differences that size can make when flying at different types of quarry. As you say "its about getting a good match up" between hawk and quarry. Large females on rabbits is not really a contest.
Outflying

[Finnish]

All this talk but still no pic,s of the Russian Gos must more than one person flying one last year???? :?

[Falconry Equipment International]

Now both of those are excellent sport and so deserving of a Gos(know what you mean about hitting hedges... whatch out for sheep/ deer fence in hedges as well) I was going to post something about not liking the tatse of rabbit anyway, but then I can't admit to having tried magpie either! ( Grey Partridge & Red Grouse being my favourite game)
regrads
J

[HawkMan69UK]

not got any pics only my video phone guys....cant work out how to send it...and we all know most falconers love to have a bigger birds ie mines bigger than yours never actually said mine was bigger than yours J ...my female flys at betwwen 2 11- 2 13 but she actually entered at 2 7 ...small big ..if it does the buisness who gives a----. but we all know if you have a choice in a breeding chamber everyone would go for the larger bird of whatever speicies and sex :wink:

[OutFlying]

...small big ..if it does the buisness who gives a----.

Like it :)

outflying

[Mr. Fong]

100% agree...

[Falconry Equipment International]

we all know most falconers love to have a bigger birds ie mines bigger than yours never actually said mine was bigger than yours J ...my female flys at betwwen 2 11- 2 13 but she actually entered at 2 7 ...small big ..if it does the buisness who gives a----. but we all know if you have a choice in a breeding chamber everyone would go for the larger bird of whatever speicies and sex :wink:
Hi HawkMan69UK this was basicly what i was trying to say in a previous reply. for the record a very well known breeder of peregrines let me have the choice of all his young falcons last year, well nowing that I would go for the smallest falcon. Folk wanting tyhe biggest falcon/hawk etc are missing the point( of course I am talking females here) & I subscribe to Roger uptons comments on the matter, quote "I like big boys & little Girls" ( BOP that is!!) :roll:
rgeards
J

[Jack Merlin]

Quote:[I subscribe to Roger uptons comments on the matter, quote "I like big boys & little Girls" ( BOP that is!!)]

That quote is a bit out of date. You will find it in Turbervile's "Book of Faulkonrie" published four hundred years ago (of goshawks), though perhaps not in those exact words!

[Tim Laycock]

I think we should just make should just make do with what we have, Large, small who cares.
I used to have a male harris(smallest I have ever heard of, Flew @ 1lb2oz) He couldnt hold a rabbit to save his life, Even by the head and he took a right kicking numerous times.
So I got him going on a pair of crows wings and after that he was mustard at crows, would take them on on passage even high up in the air.
Didnt need a bigger bird, small bird just needed matching to the right quarry.
he was a great bird until he got nailed by an imprint female at a welsh hawking meet and lost an eye. :cry:

[ColdZero]

so there is no real advantage for large gos'? just hold on to rabbits better? Thn i won' waste my money when it comes to me getting one on a huge female.

[OutFlying]

so there is no real advantage for large gos'? just hold on to rabbits better? Thn i won' waste my money when it comes to me getting one on a huge female.

As I said before - Finnish gosses tend to be steadier than the rest. If your after feather why not fly a finnish male? They are nearly the size of some small females (smaller feet though).

[ColdZero]

I will always hunt the biggest variety i can, then you're bound to find something to hunt.

Ok new question, why are bigger birds desirable forgetting all hunting aspects. Theres no point denying i would go for the larger bird too, why is that?

[Goldie]

Look at "The Beast" thread,she hunts at 3Lb and as for size difference between her and the russian,none!..you couldn"t see where the extra £1500 went.. :mrgreen:

Gaz, by my reckoning the breeder gets £3500 for his russian gos,spends £2000 on a finnish and ends up with a better bird and £1500. The lucky
b****** :lol:

[OutFlying]

I will always hunt the biggest variety i can, then you're bound to find something to hunt.

Ok new question, why are bigger birds desirable forgetting all hunting aspects. Theres no point denying i would go for the larger bird too, why is that?

Don't understand the question. What do you want to catch ? What takes priority - style or a phalanx symbol on your arm ? Anything from a finnish male (size) upwards will take most prey.
If you take hunting aspects out of the question then it's just personnel choice, males will require more skillfull handling to take the bigger stuff, females should take all big prey if entered correctly.

[ColdZero]

Ok badly phraed. Personally i will go for a smaller bird for hunting, but just for a display or something i would go for a bigger bird. I think everyone would, but why? Why is bigger more desirable. Not really a falocnry question, more psychological.

[OutFlying]

Ok badly phraed. Personally i will go for a smaller bird for hunting, but just for a display or something i would go for a bigger bird. I think everyone would, but why? Why is bigger more desirable. Not really a falocnry question, more psychological.

Why is bigger more desirable ? sometimes because the person thinks it is needed to obtain the results they want - when a smaller hawk would perform at least as good if not better. But ask yourself what is the most common first question when asking about a hawk - --------- what does it fly at :? , really the first question should be how has it performed in the field and what success has it achieved in what style.

[Goldie]

Why is bigger more desirable ? sometimes because the person thinks it is needed to obtain the results they want - when a smaller hawk would perform at least as good if not better. But ask yourself what is the most common first question when asking about a hawk - --------- what does it fly at :? , really the first question should be how has it performed in the field and what success has it achieved in what style.[/quote]

If its a member of the public I get :- why is it wearing a hat or can it not see :roll: or if its just kiled and I'm heading back to car it's :-why's it bleeding :lol: :lol: :lol:

[HawkMan69UK]

goldie ..why does it wear a hat :lol: :wink:

[Goldie]

Cos it's bloody cold up here in Scotland

[HawkMan69UK]

:lol:

[Goldie]

Can you imagine explaining to joe public it's a hat bird :roll:

[OutFlying]

Ok badly phraed. Personally i will go for a smaller bird for hunting, but just for a display or something i would go for a bigger bird. I think everyone would, but why? Why is bigger more desirable. Not really a falocnry question, more psychological.

Why is bigger more desirable ? sometimes because the person thinks it is needed to obtain the results they want - when a smaller hawk would perform at least as good if not better. But ask yourself what is the most common first question when asking about a hawk - --------- what does it fly at :? , really the first question should be how has it performed in the field and what success has it achieved in what style.

what does it fly at ? - i.e weight. Some people can't get passed this stage.

[Tim Laycock]

Very true, Its one of the first questions I would ask someone about their charge, But but purely out of curiousity.
I wouldnt use it for a yard stick as to the quality of sport they achieve.

[OutFlying]

If one was flying a merlin or spar, not many people would enquire about its flying weight but what you flew them at. Why does it then change when flying larger species of hawk / falcon ?

[Tim Laycock]

Personaly I always enquire about the weight of small hawks, But then again thats where I concentrate most of my attentions(small hawks)
But its an exellent question OutFlying and the answer eludes me :? :?:

[Jack Merlin]

If one was flying a merlin or spar, not many people would enquire about its flying weight but what you flew them at. Why does it then change when flying larger species of hawk / falcon ?

There is a species of hawk used (well, "kept" anyway!) in falconry that you won't find listed in any falconry books. It is the Ooh-Aah bird. They come is various forms, all very very big.

A white gyr, preferably female, is one ooh-aah bird. You don't need a moor to fly it on, you need a county -- preferably Caithness. A Russian gos is another. Those white gosses certainly are.

I have nothing against ooh-aah birds, or against those who keep them (they are not really intended to be flown as their turning circle is too large as is their price). I fact, I want one. Mine is called the Australian Brown Goshawk -- a really sodding great version of the Euro spar!<vbg> (I'm deadly serious on this last one).

[OutFlying]

After seeing a white crow and the response of other corvids to them, it must be quite useful flying a white gos - you wouldn't need telemetry - as every corvid for miles around would find it for you. Thus saving on telemetry costs 8) :? :? :lol:

[HawkMan69UK]

the brown gos ...? is it only flown at winged prey or is it cappable of ground quarry... but thats a ooo ahh bird but then the question is what is it...let us know if you get one mate....im still after the bio coloured hawk thats my ooo ahhh bird :lol:

[OutFlying]

the brown gos ...? is it only flown at winged prey or is it cappable of ground quarry... but thats a ooo ahh bird but then the question is what is it...let us know if you get one mate....im still after the bio coloured hawk thats my ooo ahhh bird :lol:

Hello HawkMan69UK - The white gos I refered to was an albibus goshawk, as quoted as an ooh aah hawk, I know your russian gos is not white and if you are happy with it, then thats all that matters.

Outflying

my ooh aah hawk is one that does that something special in flight i.e a gos mid-airing a teal after a good flight etc. It doesn't have to be anything exotic but do something that gets the heart going. This season i'll be trying a male perlin at snipe, if it manages to catch one flown over a pointer from a great pitch, it will be an ooh aah bird. As you will know a gos flown well at feather will provide this factor as well - be it finnish, german, russian or any gos. :wink:

[HawkMan69UK]

i havent got a russian gos ????????????

[OutFlying]

sorry

[HawkMan69UK]

but i know what ya mean when she has taken duck and pheasant above 20 feet in the air is definatly oooooooo ahhhhhhhh :lol:

[Tim Laycock]

:x
Mine is called the Australian Brown Goshawk -- a really sodding great version of the Euro spar!<

Hey Jack!
Thats my bloody ooh-aah bird, Hands off!.Lol :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

Surely an ooh-aah bird isn't meant to be flown? First, it is totally impractical (for example, white gyr - London suburbs). Second, it costs thousands so no one but a multi-millionaire can afford the risk of flying one! The idea is to have it on your fist so all your friends can come around and say "Ooh-Aah, look at that, I WANT one!"<g>

The Australian brown gos is Aus's equivalent of a black spar. Not a hope in hell of getting one because the Australian government will not allow exports of any of their indigenous birds. I corresponded with an Aussie falconer many years ago who was flying one (illegally). I think falconry may be illegal in Aus and I am pretty sure it is illegal to use any native bird of prey anyway. So, definitely an ooh-aah bird. If you see one in the UK, it is probably a black spar that has had a brown rinse!<g>

[Gaz]

I think falconry may be illegal in Aus
It is dude,was talking to Peter Nolan at the nafa meet,he told us about it,he can get abit in while helping a wild injured bird recover :wink:

[Tim Laycock]

If you see one in the UK, it is probably a black spar that has had a brown rinse!<
:lol: :lol: :lol:

It is dude,was talking to Peter Nolan at the nafa meet,he told us about it,he can get abit in while helping a wild injured bird recover
Thats a bit of a sh***er innit :roll:

[Murphy]

The breeder was a guy called Don he bread 16 Gos hawks last year.

The Beast
stunning pics mate what weight was she i fell a russian male which fell at 2lb 51/2oz
:supz: :supz: :grin: