sparrowhawks,, a cull needed??????

[BrianM]

hi guys

if any of you are regular readers of cage and avairy birds you will no doubt know that many of the readers are calling for a cull of sparrowhawks" because they are decimating the songbird population" iwas brought up to believe that nature worked on a pyramid formation and the higher up the pyramid you went the less predators there are EG sparrowhawks
songbirds
insects
plants

each organism in the formation feeds on the one below but the higher you are the less there are of them,, there is no question that there more raptors but i dont think they are totally to blame for the songbirds demise


what do you guys think??

[OhMyGod]

Yes it does brian, the amount of songbirds breeding nice slow fat fledglings is directly perpotionate to the ammount of young sparrowhawks that are raised each year.

The trouble with the pyramid system is that it has been nocked down by the domestic cat, to which there are about 10,000,000 in uk now. there are only a few thousand sparrowhawks.

sparrowhawks may kilol song birds but so do cats. I have no idea how many spars are about but there could be anything up to a thousand cats for each sparrowhawk.

Cats kill about 80% of all wild bird that die

wild raptors kill about 2%

[BrianM]

i ****in hate cats, sneeky wee ****ers :twisted: :evil:

[OhMyGod]

yeah and they arn't choosy which almost extinct bird they catch next. And they kill in a manner which I don't like.
i.e. catch a mouse then play basketball will it.

this is so bloody cruel, and sparrowhawks get the blame! How come the government get rid of hunting with dogs? but cats can do it?

[Shaun Byrne]

Sod the cull, why not allow some trapping under license???

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Approximate number of Sparrowhawks in the UK is about 34,000 breeding pairs.
Approximate number of cats is about 10,000,000.
Modern farming methods also have a very severe impact on songbirds. Probably more than all types of birds of prey put together.

Although this is unrelated to the original topic, it makes an interesting read.....

http://www.falcons.co.uk/default.asp?id=14

Regards,
Lucky.

[OhMyGod]

What do people think about trapping under licence? Just fledglings, surely this would not harm wild numbers if there are so many about. I'm sure it could be done in a way that is safe.

Good read lll

[ColdZero]

total bullshit. Why not kill all the feral cats?

Of all the things that effect songbird populations they pick the one that does the least damge. Perhaps it has something to do with sparrowhawks scaring aviary birds? being from a cage and aviary bird magazine.

[Sparrow Hawker]

Hi,

Very interesting topic, I think the majority of people put blame onto raptors decimating the population of songbirds, as its easier to blame a predator.

"Numbers of sparrowhawks are limited by the carrying capacity of the habitat. This means that the amount of food and the number of nesting sites limit the number of sparrowhawks that can survive."

http://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/guide/s/sparrowhawk/sparrowhawk_-_a_top_predator.asp

A large population of Sparrowhawks would lead to believe a relatively healthy population of prey species.

I think what a lot of people fail to realize that it's probably not the predators that are dramatically effecting the population of songbirds (they certianly add to it) but the decline in INSECT LIFE and loss of habitat, this would make sense with the decline in the population.

I came across this site http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk they seem to put a large percentage of the blame on the Sparrowhawk.

Regards,

HH

[Wes]

This is sounding like a talk I had with my Aunt, she got in touch with me about removing hawks in her area, she said, they were attacking HER BIRDS and her FRIENDS BIRDS, My Aunt breeds and raises birds they are caged and her friends birds are wild in nature, I asked my Aunt " how many of her Love Birds and Cockatiels she lost " her answer was NONE, but the hawks are all over in the trees in the fall of the year. I told her to better close in her pens with a over head roof. She even tried talking my Uncle into start shooting them. Which He refused, He's a outdoors man, I asked him way she wanted him put in jail, as it's a major fine and or time in jail for killing raptors. Needless to say the attitude changed very fast as he started thinking, about these women talking about how to solve, what they thought was a problem! Her friend was told to stop watching the birds, as well as feeding them in her back yard if she could not stomach nature. She was attracting nature to her yard by feeding the wild birds but couldn't handle the facts of it? All those little birds piled together just waiting for MR & Mrs. Cooper Hawk to come by for their share of the feast. Just didn't seem right to me. To feed just some of the birds and not all of them. IMHO! All well as Aunt took my advice and covered her pens which Uncle Charlie had to do and blames me for 8) as I live some 60 miles away. As for her Friend she's still not talking to me. but she does understand my point of view.
wes

[Shaun Byrne]

Very true, good points Wes!

[Jastreb]

In Croatia is still wild west in the case of goshawks and sparrowhawks. Lots of peopel talk about how bad they for small game are, but they don't think much about domestic cats which are out in the field. Me and my friends saved 4 spars and 16 goses which were illegaly caught , fed them and put them back in condition and then releas in the wild again(Croatian Raptor Rescue team- we are all falconers).
But in the opposite side, there are so calld GREEN COMUNITIY PEOPEL, which said that falconry is circus sport for rich man, and it should be forbiden. In that case I call them last thursday when one friend of mine brought me starved 5yo female gos, and ask them what should we do? - they scare like **** because they don't know nothing. Gos is god now, she jumped yesterday on my fist, and for 5-7 days will be returned in the wild.
They don't know nothing, they just talk and wan't some extra money, if any of you know Croatian please read one articel, from so calld GREEN WOMAN!
http://alert.zeleni.hr/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1104871657&archive =1106747140&start_from=&ucat=&do=archives
I call them copy-paste conservationist, cause they just sit in their armchair, read something somewhere and then put that in their articel!
P.S. I will try to upload some pics of that beauty female gos!

[Saker-Clive]

Forget the Sparrowhawks doing all the damage to songbirds......................................... .....................CROWS, MAGPIES and GULLS.
These are what are causing most of the nest raiding. Last spring we watched a pair of Magpies, systematically kill off about 10 young chicks of blackbird and sparrow that nest in the trees at the bottom of the garden and opposite.

In fact this year, we have seen a rise in the blackbirds, thrushes etc. around here; funny how things go. In the trrrs opposite there must be about 40 sparrows and we get 3 pairs of Blackbirds that are nesting in the immediate vicinity.

[Tim Laycock]

Of all the things that effect songbird populations they pick the one that does the least damge. Perhaps it has something to do with sparrowhawks scaring aviary birds? being from a cage and aviary bird magazine.

I think this gives us an insight into the typical (low inteligence) mentality of the average cage and aviary reading type.
I mean lets be honest, We only buy it for about the BOP for sale section but they pour over the whole thing as if its the high point of the week (sad lads)

[Saker-Clive]

I guess that 90% of the readers of C & A are the finch, budgie and pigeon keeper/breeders; all that would be 'against' BOP. for obvious reasons.

[Tim Laycock]

Yes, I would go along with that S-S. :roll:

[Saker-Clive]

Which post? first, second or both? :D

[Tim Laycock]

I was agreeing with the second, but cant realy fault the first one either. :)

[Wes]

IMHO, we as falconers should unite for a new stand "ALL CATS SHOULD BE SPADE AND NEUTERED"
In my area I don't know the numbers, but it's unreal how many stray cats there are here. I've live trap 3-4 a week and call animal control to come and collect them. A friend of mine trapped 4 in three days.
In my area the law reads-- all pets should be leached and under control of owner when not on property" But there are a lot of people don't beleive that inculdes CATS , They are the first to scream when my Rottys are in MY yard.
Goes to show ya not all people should be allowed pets, or is it the pets are just smarter than their keepers?
A Wise Man once said " You must be smarter than the animal your training"
Sorry had to vent!
Wes

[ColdZero]

Nearly every topic like this can be summed up in two words IMO,

TOWNIE *******S....it says it all.


Also, LOL i have hought about a dozen C&AB magazines and only read the ads. Except one bit about a hawk centre in a prison...but i haven't opened most.

[Wes]

Coldzero TOWNIE *******S ? must be some local saying

[Shaun Byrne]

Whats a Townie CZ??

[Jack Merlin]

There is one sure way to make sure you do not get a licence to take a spar from the wild.

Don't apply!<g>

Am I the only one in the UK to have got a licence in recent years?

If there is provision in law for a legal wild take, that is what parliament intended should happen. If you want a licence, it is up to you to present a reasoned argument why you should be allowed to take one from the wild rather than from a breeder.

[ColdZero]

townies....all the city people who know nothing about the countryside yet feel they know how to run it...

[Tim Laycock]

townies....all the city people who know nothing about the countryside yet feel they know how to run it...

The kind of Scuz that pressure MPs into raising private members bills for anti hunting organisations.

[GriffMJ]

Dear Mr. Morgan-Jones ---- Thank you very much for your interesting Email.I shall pass it on to our Trustee coordinating our Research programme and surveys. It would be very interesting for us to know from where these figures come ---the numbers of Sparrowhawks is the same as one survey we know of but there are many many more unpaired/juvenile birds --how many would you estimate ? We agree that the cat problem is appalling and we have had an article in a newsletter on this subject--- it is so difficult to convince cat owners and we have askedanyone who MUST have a cat to have one only and to keep it in as much as possible .We asked the RSPB to support us on this but they support no one elses ideas and are afraid of losing members if they appear anti cat---we ask everyone to write to them with any such complaints sending a copy to us because as a pressure group the more heads we have to count and the more letters of proof and feeling the stronger our lobbying will be. It would be marvellous if you would become a member for £15 pa and we could send you some of our articles but you could update some figures for us from your studies .I shall pass your Email to other directors who will be very interested.Do you consider our Web. to be out of date? It is about to be re designed.

Yours Sincerely Antonia Macpherson ( Trustee and mwmbership secretary) Your address if you want details etc. please.




Any suggestions on my reply Gentlemen?????????

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Who's this from Griff, and what did you send them to get this reply?

Regards,
Lucky.

[GriffMJ]

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk

Dear Sirs



Sparrowhawks may kill song birds but so do cats.



Approximate number of Sparrowhawks in the UK is about 34,000 breeding pairs. Approximate number of cats is about 10,000,000. Modern farming methods also have a very severe impact on songbirds. Probably more than all types of birds of prey put together.



Cats kill about 80% of all wild bird that die wild raptors kill about 2%



regards

G Morgan-Jones

[Jastreb]

Will you prefer HIM or CATS?

[Jastreb]

Littel pocket rocket!

[Finnish]

Nice bird you have there.And the hawking in te-shirts thats mint.

[Jastreb]

Hot time, summer in the city!
This summer will be much better for me and Ares-I will get GWP!
Quails and partridges-here we come!

[ColdZero]

very nice spar, they are amazing to see, i have only seen a few in the wild but i was very impressed with them.

Whats sttrange about hawking in a t-shirt :shock:

[Jastreb]

In summer time here is about 30-35 celsius, it is not pleasnt to be in pullower or hawking shirt.

[Mojo]

In summer time here is about 30-35 celsius, it is not pleasnt to be in pullower or hawking shirt.

Paltry excuse for displaying your muscles.. 8) :wink: ...ha ha ha ha

[Tim Laycock]

Nice spar! Very pretty girl. :mrgreen:

[Jastreb]

Mojo would you like to buy a red tail?
Don't think so DUDE!
REMBO! :evil: :lol:

[Mojo]

Mojo would you like to buy a red tail?
Don't think so DUDE!
REMBO! :evil: :lol:

you evil evil evil..may i just add, evil man :evil:

[Hawkmaster]

Why Mojo? Don't y0ou want one?

[Jastreb]

Yes but I must do all the things about import CITES, and if he is making jokes with me NO WAY DUDE!
I am kidding he is good friend of mine and I will do everything to take care of that!
If any of you have male RT please count on him! Import is not big problem, I alredy import harrises from Martin Jones!
MOJO JOHN JE! :partyman:

[Spirited]

Hey everyone, I am new to the boards so please don't all yell at me for saying what I am going to say :shock: :oops:

I love cats and birds and have always kept both with one of my cats who adores sleeping on top of one of the birds cages especially when its sunny :P

A few of you have commented on how cruel cats are and how they should all be killed off. My question to you all is why? they are no more cruel than our BOP who also hunt naturally. You cannot call cats cruel for doing what comes naturally to them.

I volunteer at my local Cat Protection and I guess I see the effects of owners refusing to neauter their pets and also the effects of the ferral population.

I do tell new owners when I am doing homing visits to try and keep their cats in as much as possible in the spring time if they can see young birds in the garden or if they do let their cats out to watch them more.

I have yet to find a cat owner who does not enjoy birds in their gardens which is abit ironic.

Going back to the topic BOP do terrify aviary birds in my experience it is not the sight always but the sound they make that can be just as effecting.

I look forward to any feedback on my comments and hope I have not upset too many.

[Saker-Clive]

As most of you know, I have 3 birds in my garden, one HH, one Saker and a Perlin. I regularly block the 2 falcons out on the lawn when the sun is in the garden and the only birds that seem to get upset by this are the seagulls (herring) and the crows; we even get starlings, blackbirds and sparrows come down for a forage whilst the falcons are on the lawn. Occaisionally a starling might get a little too close and the Perlin jumps off his block to 'catch' it but always to no avail.
Having the BOP in the garden hasn't made one iota of a difference to the wild birds; in fact, I would say that they have helped the wild birds as we rarely get cats in the garden during the daylight hours. Even my cat gives the birds a wide birth and keeps away.

[Goldie]

[quote="Saker-Sucker"]. Occaisionally a starling might get a little too close and the Perlin jumps off his block to 'catch' it but always to no avail.

Give it a longer leash :lol: :lol:

[ColdZero]

hey spirited. Personally i think cats are more cruel, they are one of the very few animals that kill for fun and play around with their food before killing it. BOP do not.
I think the point is that there are so many more cats, that it makes the birds taken by spars insignificant.

Oh yeah, ever seen your hawk mobbed by a pair of disgruntled blue tits? :D its really funny. She also got mobbed by a spar, and she didn't even flinch.

[Kevin Massey]

cull the cats i say.........start with the ginger 1's first to see if that affects things (and they are the ugliest).

kev

[Saker-Clive]

:D :twisted: :D

[Tim Laycock]

ILMFAO :lol:

[Mojo]

Why Mojo? Don't y0ou want one?

yes, i desperately want one...i found one in austria, but the breeder didn't took me seriosly...he thought that he can pull my leg forever, so i became tired of it, and broke up the deal...which is a very sad story, but i don't allow to anybody to make fun of me in that way...the saddest thing about this is that is was going on for two months, and this man couldn't fetch this bird of his, because he had to go to Germany to pick it up....it ended like soap opera...that's why Jastreb is teasing me, but he+ll get his ass kicked when i see him, no doubt about that.. :wink: 8)

[Jastreb]

Try me!
Antonio Rodrigo Noguira "Minotaur" was my last, good bless his soul, enemy!
New Cro Cop is HERE :twisted:¨!

[Hawkmaster]

Surely you can get one from here in the UK?

[Jastreb]

Yes we can me and my another friend and I allready import 6 Harrises, it is not a problem!

[GoshawkRST]

Jastreb - what flying weight does your sparrowhawk have? It´s amazing!!!!

[Jastreb]

GoshawkRST,
225-228 grams she is imprint. I try PR before, but then you have problems during winter, because you need to put them down and that can kill them.
I will maybe have her babies this year!

[GoshawkRST]

Thanks man,
I am flying one this ear (i will imprint her), but I need to wait 3 monts more... well, I will wait. :lol:

Thanks again, the bird is awesome!!!
Put more pics! :lol:
Sergiu....

[Jastreb]

GoshawkRST,
Here is one pic from imprinting days. Come here in Croatia in November on our Falconry meeting with your spar!
Cheers Viktor

[GoshawkRST]

In Croatia??? I don´t know man.... we´ll see. I am thinking to go to Rumania for some 4 monts, with the bird.
Thanks for the foto, i really like seeing fotos with spars. Your bird is awesome!!! Keep up the good work!
It is easy to introduce it to quarry?

[Jastreb]

When she saw first partridge in her life she did that in great stile.
Natural born killer!!!! :twisted: :)

[GoshawkRST]

And how does it do it with the partidge? It was easy or not?
What about pigeons? Do they catch them nice and frecvently?

[Jastreb]

Partridge was over good point, and it was in in first 30 meters, and with pigeons is the same thing. When I had slip her on pigeons they were mostly eating corns behind tractor in open field, and I came to them on my mountain bike. But I don't like to fly her on pigeons because I alredy lost male red tail who caught probably sick one-pigeons are very dangerous because they can have lots of diseases.
But, if you have chance to fly spar on wilde pigeons, thats another thing. I try three times, two times was succesful, and they are much harder and stronger quarry!

[Hawkmaster]

WELCOME Spirited!

I see you are from the South whereabouts?

What birds do you fly?

Regrds Paul