Enseaming.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Do you still use this method?

Does it work?

Can it be used on all birds of prey used for falconry purposes?

What type of Rangle do you use?

Has any one had a problem enseaming- ie= piece of rangle didnt come out during cast or took a while to be cast?

Regards
Rabbit Rabbit chas.

[Falconry Equipment International]

Not sure what you mean here, enseaminng to imho is bringing a hawlk/ falcon back into condition after the moult & if you call gamehawking with peregrines falconry purposes well yes to that. Sometimes I do use rangle( I have saved selected stones that I boil and let cool to luke warm~ 30%C approx) however often thios process has started whilst still in the mews( all mine have 6mm pea gravel as the floor substrate) and when I have caught hte falcons up I often notice pellets with gravel in them. Of course you have to be careful doing this & no I would bnot suggest anyone try this without someone whom ahas had a lot more experience. That said I have had not oprobs with this.
J

[Jack Merlin]

Enseaming is the old word for dieting a hawk to remove internal fat. The old methods of training hawks involved more than weight reduction and manning. They also made use of tirings (for example, the wing of a bird with most of the meat cut off), and plumage (the wing of a bird which the hawk was encouraged to pluck). These probably helped with manning as the bird was carried while it was pulling at the tiring/plumage. They are also good exercise (just see how much it takes to pull a wing feather out of a chicken's wing!).

Unlike many other birds that eat seeds, etc. birds of prey do not have a crop, they have a stomach. A fat bird has a fatty lining to the stomach which is removed by dieting. If you dissect a fat hawk, you will find this lining can be peeled off. Once all internal fat has been removed, a hawk knows that it must replenish its reserves and it becomes "hungry". It is that instinct that the falconer uses to train his bird, not starvation.

Casting (feathers and fur) will wipe some of the fatty lining off the inside of the stomach. Rangle (small stones) has the same effect but is a bit harsher. Sometimes you can see the fatty slime on rangle that has been cast up. Stones about the size of a pea are suitable for large hawks, less than half that size for small hawks. Some hawks will take these in a piece of meat. Some will take it voluntarily, by themselves.

The old falconers also used various recipies to disperse this fat. Falconers in the Far East still do. A fairly safe scouring is a mix of fine sugar and butter, but you use it at your own risk!

Sounds like you need to read a few more books<g>.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Thanks for the response SJ.
What size are the selected stones you use?

What i meant by falconry birds is ie from a merlin to a eagle.

The term enseaming is to clear any fatty deposits in the digestive track and stomach, i suppose it is like using a engine flush.

Regards

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Enseaming is the old word for dieting a hawk to remove internal fat. The old methods of training hawks involved more than weight reduction and manning. They also made use of tirings (for example, the wing of a bird with most of the meat cut off), and plumage (the wing of a bird which the hawk was encouraged to pluck). These probably helped with manning as the bird was carried while it was pulling at the tiring/plumage. They are also good exercise (just see how much it takes to pull a wing feather out of a chicken's wing!).

Unlike many other birds that eat seeds, etc. birds of prey do not have a crop, they have a stomach. A fat bird has a fatty lining to the stomach which is removed by dieting. If you dissect a fat hawk, you will find this lining can be peeled off. Once all internal fat has been removed, a hawk knows that it must replenish its reserves and it becomes "hungry". It is that instinct that the falconer uses to train his bird, not starvation.

Casting (feathers and fur) will wipe some of the fatty lining off the inside of the stomach. Rangle (small stones) has the same effect but is a bit harsher. Sometimes you can see the fatty slime on rangle that has been cast up. Stones about the size of a pea are suitable for large hawks, less than half that size for small hawks. Some hawks will take these in a piece of meat. Some will take it voluntarily, by themselves.

The old falconers also used various recipies to disperse this fat. Falconers in the Far East still do. A fairly safe scouring is a mix of fine sugar and butter, but you use it at your own risk!

Sounds like you need to read a few more books<g>.


Thanks jack i have read the books. I also have read the book with the sugar and butter recipe, they also used to add herbs.

The purpose of the post was to see how many people still used this method and if enseaming was used as much today as it was in the old days.
Also if any one had any problems with it.

Regards

[Falconry Equipment International]

diferenet for each hawk as to their size & sex, much as Jack has said
J

[Jack Merlin]

The purpose of the post was to see how many people still used this method and if enseaming was used as much today as it was in the old days.

Ain't no other way that I know of!<vbg>

I don't think there is as much emphasis today on conditioning a hawk as there used to be. What I mean here is training the mind of the hawk.

Far too much reliance on the weighing machine and weight reduction. But then I am probably just an eccentric. We have been training hawks for falconry in this country for about 2,000 years and only started using the weighing machine in the last 50. I am not at all sure that that is progress.

[Falconry Equipment International]

The purpose of the post was to see how many people still used this method and if enseaming was used as much today as it was in the old days.


Ain't no other way that I know of!<vbg>

I don't think there is as much emphasis today on conditioning a hawk as there used to be. What I mean here is training the mind of the hawk.

Far too much reliance on the weighing machine and weight reduction. But then I am probably just an eccentric. We have been training hawks for falconry in this country for about 2,000 years and only started using the weighing machine in the last 50. I am not at all sure that that is progress.
Hey jack
perhaps folk are using the Atkins diet now, but guess what as of today they will be in serious s@*t as they have just gone into administartion. Lets reach for the old books( older than 20 years at lerast)!!!
J :roll:

[LeighJauncey]

Do you mean gizzard? Birds of prey certainly do have a crop.Unlike many other birds that eat seeds, etc. birds of prey do not have a crop, they have a stomach.

[MattSpar]

LeighJauncey is quite right, of course. All the hawks & falcons I've ever seen have come complete with a crop! It's owls that don't have one. As for enseaming, the practice is largely defunct, as no purges or palliatives are necessary. When your bird has completed the moult, gradually cut her weight down till she becomes responsive. Then let her take all the excercise she wants. This straightforward approach is better than any enseaming technique.
The idea of weighing a bird most certainly IS progress. It's one of the few things that has made falconry easier to practice.

[Tim Laycock]

As for enseaming, the practice is largely defunct, as no purges or palliatives are necessary. When your bird has completed the moult, gradually cut her weight down till she becomes responsive. Then let her take all the excercise she wants. This straightforward approach is better than any enseaming technique.

What a crock of **** :!: :roll:

[Talib]

Blackbird wrote:
What a crock of ****

Stupendous post, brilliantly constructed... concise and to the point.
Do you have any scientific references to support this thought-provoking viewpoint???

Talib

PS Glad your not going Blackbird... the "experts" may have gone, but it looks like the unique character and tone of this forum is going to continue regardless.

[Tim Laycock]

Talib, Thanks for the platitude!
Put your spoon away you big **** stiring idiot!!

Balls to your science! I think I will guage what I do by my previous endeavours :roll:

Have you ever enseamed an accipiter properly?
I very much doubt it so shut up you pillock :finga: :mrgreen:

p.s. Glad you like my style m8 :wink: :lol:

[Kornie]

lol, I like it balckbird, the lack of english charm is unfathomable :D :lol:

[OhMyGod]

When taken from the moult I will slowly reduce the food quantity over a period of a week. Then I will leave her hooded for 48 hours on the lawn with no food to stop her bating whilst still overweight.

My goals then will be to get the falcon fit and strong. I want her to convert all the fat around her internal organs into energy and muscle. To do this she will have to be keen to fly hard, to get her keen to fly hard I will feed her large crops of semi washed meat and rangle. The large crops expand the crop size as she has been eating high quality food in the moult and now she will be eating full crops of gutted skinned washed chick which will expand the crop and tone up the whole digestive system by having loads of food going through it each day, making her keen to fly and increasing her appetite making her keener and so on. The rangle will take off some of the mucus lining the stomach making it more efficiant and making her keener still and in top yarak. the mucus is there to prevent the stomach from digesting itself by the acid, but will be too thick and will be needed to got rid of.


When fit and strong and burning up loads of energy on a daily basis I mainly feed chick. I will skin the lot and gut half and feed her as much chick as she will eat every day till her crop is looking as though it is going to burst. I would rather feed more semi washed chick than casting material as this does not go past the stomach and will not go through the intestines at all and is therefore (in my opinion) pointless, so I will feed only material that goes through the intestines toning the whole system even more making her keener to fly. Rarely do I need to wash meat when flying hard but I would still rather wash the food and feed a full crop than feed half a crop of unwashed if she is putting on fat. I want her to be in a condition where she has no fat and in the highest form of yarak possible so when out in the field she is fast powerfull brave determined strong obediant and a joy to fly and see eating up the sky in top yarak down to controlling the digestive system properly.

[OhMyGod]

I must add when skinning the chicks I find a little stays on the head and legs and she still produces a small pellet about twice the size of a pea. Instead of somthing that looks like a tennis ball. I can feed her 6 unskinned or 8 skinned slightly washed and keep her at the same weight.

I also feed 3 grams of A1raptor supplement DAILY as this will provide what the chick does not and she needs daily.

[Kornie]

Interesting, good post OMG.

[Tim Laycock]

PS Glad your not going Blackbird... the "experts" may have gone, but it looks like the unique character and tone of this forum is going to continue regardless.

The "Experts" have not all gone Talib, We still have you to look to in that capacity :shock: :roll: RRRpmsl! :lol:

[Adam Barrett]

:lol: :lol:

very good and informative post there oh my god thanks for that. 8)

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Bloody hell

It has taken 5 months for someone to answer my question using there own circumstances and experience of en seaming.


Well done OMG. That's all i was after.

[MattSpar]

I thank Blackbird for his response. However, his post appears lacking in any constructive information on the subject. I have seen birds conditioned by enseaming at the end of the moult, but none performed markedly better, or worse, than any of mine. In times past, falconers also dosed their birds with sugar candy, a practice now unheard of. Certainly, rangle can be left by your birds perch, to be picked up voluntarily, but to forcibly push stones down a raptor's gullet in the belief that this will improve her performance...... Hawks being taken up from the moult need only to be gradually cut down & given excercise.
However, having upset the traditionalists, I shall now go on to upset the posers by saying that the whole issue of "enseaming" has one important function, & that is to perpetuate the "mystique" of falconry. This can worry beginners unnecessarily, because there is no mystique.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

I thank Blackbird for his response. However, his post appears lacking in any constructive information on the subject. I have seen birds conditioned by enseaming at the end of the moult, but none performed markedly better, or worse, than any of mine. In times past, falconers also dosed their birds with sugar candy, a practice now unheard of. Certainly, rangle can be left by your birds perch, to be picked up voluntarily, but to forcibly push stones down a raptor's gullet in the belief that this will improve her performance...... Hawks being taken up from the moult need only to be gradually cut down & given excercise.
However, having upset the traditionalists, I shall now go on to upset the posers by saying that the whole issue of "enseaming" has one important function, & that is to perpetuate the "mystique" of falconry. This can worry beginners unnecessarily, because there is no mystique.


Matt fair observation but how do apply that to nick fox's judgment.

[OhMyGod]

enseaming (cleaning the stomach lining) is just a small part of the process of getting the bird into top condition and yarak matspar.

Just as there are many other small processes which when added together make a noticable difference in the performance of birds in top condition, and just pushes them that bit further. But everything else must be spot on first to get the benefits. If it isn't you will be acheiving nothing.

I think the birds which burn up most energy will benefit from this, like rook hawks such as peregrines which may be flying at top speed for more than 15 mins when ringing up gulls of tail chasing crows as it gives them more motivation and in turn more condition and muscle and therefore stamina.

[Tim Laycock]

I thank Blackbird for his response. However, his post appears lacking in any constructive information on the subject. I have seen birds conditioned by enseaming at the end of the moult, but none performed markedly better, or worse, than any of mine. In times past, falconers also dosed their birds with sugar candy, a practice now unheard of. Certainly, rangle can be left by your birds perch, to be picked up voluntarily, but to forcibly push stones down a raptor's gullet in the belief that this will improve her performance...... Hawks being taken up from the moult need only to be gradually cut down & given excercise.
However, having upset the traditionalists, I shall now go on to upset the posers by saying that the whole issue of "enseaming" has one important function, & that is to perpetuate the "mystique" of falconry. This can worry beginners unnecessarily, because there is no mystique.
Dosing has nothing to do with enseaming!
Sugar candy is used to make a hawk cast its gorge, with a view to bringing a hawk into yarak that has been overfed or fed by mistake. :|
As OMG has rightly pointed out The process of enseaming is the purging of fat and "Grease" from the stomach lining.
Nothing to do with sugar.

You have obviously never administered rangle and seen what comes out and in turn never had the pleasure of watching the resulting yarak that ensues!

[Mary Quite Contrary]

enseaming (cleaning the stomach lining) is just a small part of the process of getting the bird into top condition and yarak matspar.

Just as there are many other small processes which when added together make a noticable difference in the performance of birds in top condition, and just pushes them that bit further. But everything else must be spot on first to get the benefits. If it isn't you will be acheiving nothing.

I think the birds which burn up most energy will benefit from this, like rook hawks such as peregrines which may be flying at top speed for more than 15 mins when ringing up gulls of tail chasing crows as it gives them more motivation and in turn more condition and muscle and therefore stamina.


OMG do you use washed beef or rabbit as alternative to chick for this process.

[LeighJauncey]

I think Matt's point was about traditional falconry methods generally - some work some don't, some don't make the slightest difference - not that rangles or enseaming have anything to do with dosing with sugar. Undoubtedly there are still falconers who use these methods but I know a lot more who don't and their hawks are superbly in yarak and their falcons in tip top condition. I do think some of the mystique needs to be put back though, there are far too many ordinary people thinking they can train a bird and don't realise how important all the dark rituals are!

[MattSpar]

I have if fact given rangle in the past, long ago when I knew no better. I saw no noticeable difference in the performance of any bird of mine than when this treatment was not administered. Therefore I no longer use it. The performance of my rook hawks was in no way improved by it. They fly perfectly well without being force-fed stones. No doubt if Blackbird were to ingest rangle, it would emerge coated with grease, but would he feel any better for it? Maybe our Olympic athletes should consider enseaming themselves at the beginning of the athletic season? I think not.

[Tim Laycock]

I think Matt's point was about traditional falconry methods generally - some work some don't, some don't make the slightest difference - not that rangles or enseaming have anything to do with dosing with sugar. Undoubtedly there are still falconers who use these methods but I know a lot more who don't and their hawks are superbly in yarak and their falcons in tip top condition. I do think some of the mystique needs to be put back though, there are far too many ordinary people thinking they can train a bird and don't realise how important all the dark rituals are!
Further to this L J.
My point was that there are far too many people condemming time honoured methods when they only know a brief outline of them, their use and how thay are still carried out to good effect by dedicated individuals.
This really irritates me, Its like rosehips down my back!!!

The average falconer thinks all he has to do to condition his/her hawk is drop the weight and get fit.
The more experienced among us know that this is a huge misconception and are well aware of the gulf between a hawk conditioned by weight reduction and one that is well enseamed, Flying by appetite and "love of her keeper"

[OhMyGod]

I feed quail in the moult and full crops of chick for flying when there is no kill. When there is a kill I let them eat some then pile slightly washed chick on top so she has as much food as she can eat each time she is flown. I don't really feed beef and never feed my falcon rabbit. As it means I have to go shooting. Last flying season she ate chick some quail rook some gull and a bit of beef in emergencies.

[Tim Laycock]

No doubt if Blackbird were to ingest rangle, it would emerge coated with grease, but would he feel any better for it? Maybe our Olympic athletes should consider enseaming themselves at the beginning of the athletic season? I think not.

I do not have a crop or the digestive tract of a raptor.
Also I am not entirely carnivorous.

Are you stupid or just so weak witted that you think this makes sense?

[Mary Quite Contrary]

I think Matt's point was about traditional falconry methods generally - some work some don't, some don't make the slightest difference - not that rangles or enseaming have anything to do with dosing with sugar. Undoubtedly there are still falconers who use these methods but I know a lot more who don't and their hawks are superbly in yarak and their falcons in tip top condition. I do think some of the mystique needs to be put back though, there are far too many ordinary people thinking they can train a bird and don't realise how important all the dark rituals are!
Further to this L J.
My point was that there are far too many people condemming time honoured methods when they only know a brief outline of them, their use and how thay are still carried out to good effect by dedicated individuals.
This really irritates me, Its like rosehips down my back!!!

The average falconer thinks all he has to do to condition his/her hawk is drop the weight and get fit.
The more experienced among us know that this is a huge misconception and are well aware of the gulf between a hawk conditioned by weight reduction and one that is well enseamed, Flying by appetite and "love of her keeper"

This was another point of this post. I wanted to know if this method is being used as common as before and also why people disagreed with this method.

[Tim Laycock]

CPC,
I think people disagree with these methods because they think they are old hat!
People gave up trying to improve on the wheel years ago.
Im sure you can see where Im going with this m8 :wink:

[OhMyGod]

I think what makes a good bird is a falconer who knows he is flying his bird to the best of his ability, this motivation and dedication is passed through onto the bird and makes a difference to its motivation.

I have heard time and time again the arguments for and against enseaming. I choose to do it myself but will never say it should be done. However I will continue doing what I stated earlier as I believe it is best for me and my falcon.

[LeighJauncey]

I think you'd better be careful Blackbird. If your age is correct at 27 then MattSpar has been training, flying and breeding some very successful birds for longer than you have been alive and has tried most of the techniques, old and new that exist in falconry - as have I come to that - I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert, nor would MattSpar but there's no question that he is an extremely experienced, successful falconer.

Are you stupid or just so weak witted that you think this makes sense?

I think it's more a case of getting tired of people who cannot accept others' points of view - why do some very experienced falconers find it hard to continue contributing to this forum I wonder?

[Tim Laycock]

"Experience is proportional to intensity, not duration"
Thomas Hardy.

I will not be carefull! nor respectfull to persons I do not know that make stupid statements under the guise of sarcasam.

And if "Experienced" falconers leaving this list do so because of me and my like, they had better look out because I was a member of the list they have all migrated to at its inception.

It is an invitation only list for persons "Worth their salt"

I do not realy care for being carefull, I have enough brawn and wit to back up any view I care to take :wink: :D :D

[OhMyGod]

some of the reason why I believe it to be of some benefit is because I know falcons do it in the wild and my bird when put on gravel after flying hard with a full crop will often jump down an play with the stones in her beak turning them round and then swollowing some down. This bird I have at the moment will do it in the evening after her crop has gone down a bit.

I doubt that birds would do this if it had no real benefit.

[Tim Laycock]

I doubt that birds would do this if it had no real benefit.
A good observation OMG :D

[Talib]

Blackbird wrote, in response to MattSpar:
Quote:No doubt if Blackbird were to ingest rangle, it would emerge coated with grease, but would he feel any better for it? Maybe our Olympic athletes should consider enseaming themselves at the beginning of the athletic season? I think not.


I do not have a crop or the digestive tract of a raptor.
Also I am not entirely carnivorous.

All the old time "remedies" for the afflictions and conditioning of birds of prey are based on the apothecaries knowledge of human remedies. There were no falcon vets in the old days... the apothecaries used the same compounds for treating humans, cattle, horses, dogs and falcons.

Most of the human population (including falconers) has moved on from these "ancient" remedies for their own treatment... as in most cases there are better and safer modern alternatives. Funny how falconers still persist in using them on their birds though...

Talib

PS "Enseaming" was learnt by Western falconers at the time of the crusades from Arab falconers... who had already been practising it for a thousand years or more. I doubt if there are probably more than half-a-dozen Western falconers who fully understand its proper implementation... and none of them appear to be on this forum.

[OhMyGod]

Talib

PS "Enseaming" was learnt by Western falconers at the time of the crusades from Arab falconers... who had already been practising it for a thousand years or more. I doubt if there are probably more than half-a-dozen Western falconers who fully understand its proper implementation... and none of them appear to be on this forum.


Perhaps you could enlighten us then Talib. CPC has asked for advice on this subject. Why don't you just tell us the proper implementation then?

[Tim Laycock]

All the old time "remedies" for the afflictions and conditioning of birds of prey are based on the apothecaries knowledge of human remedies. There were no falcon vets in the old days... the apothecaries used the same compounds for treating humans, cattle, horses, dogs and falcons.
Very interesting Talib.
Most of the human population (including falconers) has moved on from these "ancient" remedies for their own treatment... as in most cases there are better and safer modern alternatives. Funny how falconers still persist in using them on their birds though...
Interesting again Talib, Perhaps it is the case that some feel that a sport so traditional is all the better if more use is made of age old methods.
"Enseaming" was learnt by Western falconers at the time of the crusades from Arab falconers...You learn something new every day :D
I doubt if there are probably more than half-a-dozen Western falconers who fully understand its proper implementation... and none of them appear to be on this forum. I doubt this
<btw>Im not professing that I do(Fully understand it), you understand. :|

[Tim Laycock]

Perhaps you could enlighten us then Talib. CPC has asked for advice on this subject. Why don't you just tell us the proper implementation then?
Indeed :!:

[Talib]

OhMyGod wrote:
Perhaps you could enlighten us then Talib. CPC has asked for advice on this subject. Why don't you just tell us the proper implementation then?

Because one of the main causes of mortality in intermewed falcons in the Middle East is wrongful or over-enthusiastic enseaming by falconers who don't realise (or care) about the dangers of the methods and compounds they use. I would only discuss such matters with very experienced falconers whom had the best interests of their birds at heart... a public falconry forum is not the place for information that could easily be misunderstood or wrongfully implemented... and dead birds could result.

Talib

[OhMyGod]

you can pm me your opinions

[Tim Laycock]

Perhaps you could put OMG and myself in the picture by PM Talib.
Or is there an insinuation in your reply?

Thanks

Tim.

[OhMyGod]

the way I see it talib is that i can not look into my birds stomach to see what is going on. Probably the stomach is working at 100% (but i doubt it after an 8 month moult of rich food and no exercise) so I give rangle to loosen the musus after I have taken her weight down. I give it to her everyday during fitness training which will take me about 2 weeks, then I give lotts of castings to take away the mucus loosened by the rangle. This way I am 100% sure that my falcons stomach is working to 100% of its efficiancy without any doubt.

Tell me what is wrong with this as I am getting confused now.

[Kornie]

"Experience is proportional to intensity, not duration"
Thomas Hardy.

Great quote Blackbird, discussed this with my mum only the other day.

Who said all the experts were gone, keep this thread going guys its very interesting, and factual. I learnt a lot.

More, give us more....

[Jester]

does this do any good for owls even though they have no crop?? is it something i should look into??

jester used to occasionally eat the pea gravel in the aviary when he first went into it but doesnt seem to do it any more

i know to many in here he is "just another bloody owl" but if i can have him in better condition he will do better out hunting thats a good thing isnt it?????????

[Tim Laycock]

does this do any good for owls even though they have no crop?? is it something i should look into??

jester used to occasionally eat the pea gravel in the aviary when he first went into it but doesnt seem to do it any more

i know to many in here he is "just another bloody owl" but if i can have him in better condition he will do better out hunting thats a good thing isnt it?????????

It certainly is a good thing! But Im afraid I can not hope to answer your question as it puts me at a loss Im afraid
:|

[OhMyGod]

me also.

My thinking is that it is a good idea for birds being physically pushed to their limits on a daily basis hoping to get more out of them. I doubt it would have much effect unless you are chasing bunnies in good persuit over a good distance daily, but I could be wrong as I am not certain of this type of digestive setup. Owls do cast up bones as they can not desolve bones into the acid so perhaps they don't have as much of a mucus build up.

[The Late Lord Lucan]

OhMyGod wrote:

Quote:Perhaps you could enlighten us then Talib. CPC has asked for advice on this subject. Why don't you just tell us the proper implementation then?


Because one of the main causes of mortality in intermewed falcons in the Middle East is wrongful or over-enthusiastic enseaming by falconers who don't realise (or care) about the dangers of the methods and compounds they use. I would only discuss such matters with very experienced falconers whom had the best interests of their birds at heart... a public falconry forum is not the place for information that could easily be misunderstood or wrongfully implemented... and dead birds could result.

Talib
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hahahahahahahahahahaha Hahahahahhahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahaha Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

******.

:butthead:

You have ****in tickled me pink there Talib.
You come across as an intelligent articulate guy, but I don't think I have seen you post ANYTHING that is of any use.

You have been a regular poster claiming you have the answers, but they never appear........

Warmest Regards,
Lord Lucan.

[OutFlying]

Talib is The Riddler, many posts replied to - not many answered.

[Talib]

The Late Lord Lucan wrote:
You have been a regular poster claiming you have the answers, but they never appear........

Download http://www.savethesaker.com/images/falco17.pdf
Then click on item 14 "Ammonium chloride toxicosis
in Saker Falcons."

Talib

PS If you have any trouble understanding some of the long words old boy, I'll explain them to you later...

[MattSpar]

As I've flown many species at most types of quarry over many years, with, as I believe I said in one of my original posts, a modicum of success, & latterly without recourse to rangle, or any other archaic techniques, I feel I have enough experience to say what I do. Those who wish to use rangle as part of their management are free to do so, of course, but as far as getting a bird into good flying condition goes - IT ISN'T NECESSARY.

[Tim Laycock]

IT ISN'T NECESSARY
No one said otherwise :|

[Sprout]

I completely agree with OMG, Blackbird and LL on this one. Those who do not believe in it I think do not understand the reasoning of enseaming or how to truly condition a hawk. Who says anything about forcing rangle etc down a hawks throat?? My birds take it voluntarily and lots of wild birds I've had in through the surgery have brought up rangle in their casting (often covered in thick mucous). Rangle is not a method pf training/conditioning hawks, it is merely a tool to assist in the conditioning. It works for me and my hawks!!

[Gaz]

My birds take it voluntarily
Ditto :finga:

[Talib]

Sprout wrote:
Those who do not believe in it I think do not understand the reasoning of enseaming or how to truly condition a hawk.

So what is the "reasoning" of enseaming???
What are the stimuli for the voluntary intake of small stones by birds of prey and what are the resulting physiological effects???

Talib

[OutFlying]

Sprout wrote:
Those who do not believe in it I think do not understand the reasoning of enseaming or how to truly condition a hawk.

So what is the "reasoning" of enseaming???
What are the stimuli for the voluntary intake of small stones by birds of prey and what are the resulting physiological effects???

Talib

Talib,
If you already know the answer why not post it rather than the riddles ?

OF.

[Talib]

OutFlying wrote:
Talib,
If you already know the answer why not post it rather than the riddles ?

Where is the riddle??
These are simple, basic questions for a vet, or indeed for any falconer who is a proponent of enseaming.
Why do they think it does their birds any good... surely they have some idea as to why birds of prey ingest small stones... or is it that they just read/heard about it in an old falconry book and do it just because it adds to the "mystique" of falconry... as already stated previously upon this thread.

Talib

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Download http://www.savethesaker.com/images/falco17.pdf
Then click on item 14 "Ammonium chloride toxicosis
in Saker Falcons."

See, it wasn't that hard to give an answer was it?

PS If you have any trouble understanding some of the long words old boy, I'll explain them to you later...
What does 'procedure' mean?
What is 'sometimes'?
What's a 'stomach'?

Other than that, I think I coped OK.

Years ago, it used to be an acceptable practice to drill holes in somebodies head, to relieve the pressure of headaches.....
Funnily enough, this method is no longer used.
Taking rangle, is something that birds will do naturally in the wild. Ive never heard of them rooting around for some ammonium chloride & a cotton bag to put it in.
Whilst I read the article with interest, all it says to me is that some Middle Eastern falconers need to be reducated on some of their methods.
Also, for the amount of birds being used on the trip to Pakistan, 40 I recall, the amount of sickness and deaths was extortionately high, maybe there is a message their somewhere.
I don't profess to have any amount of knowledge of the way falconers look after and fly their birds in the Middle East, but I think it would be fair to say that their decision to use ammonium chloride is not a good one.

Where is the riddle??
These are simple, basic questions for a vet, or indeed for any falconer who is a proponent of enseaming
I think it would be fair to say that folk are just asking for you to voice your opinion, views and experience, as opposed to just asking questions in return.
If I recall correctly, I have never seen a reply from you to a direct question, you just reply with a question yourself. Whilst this is sometimes a good thing, it does get rather annoying when waiting for the opinion of somebody different, who upon first impressions, has a knowledge of methods that differ from here in the UK.

Regards,
Lucky.

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Oh, and here is a direct question for you Talib, hopefully you will be courteous enough to proffer a direct answer...

Are YOU responsible for any of the information in this paper, or have you just pointed us to somebody elses work?

The reason I ask is that whilst this article on Ammonium Chloride may carry a message and some facts about its misguided (in my opinion) use, it doesn't offer any opinions does it?
I think it is fair to say that it is YOUR OPINION that is being sought here.

Regards,
LLL.

[Talib]

The Late Lord Lucan wrote:
Also, for the amount of birds being used on the trip to Pakistan, 40 I recall, the amount of sickness and deaths was extortionately high, maybe there is a message their somewhere.

Try reading it again Lucky... 40 sick birds were presented to the vets for treatment, 16 died. There were several hundred other falcons on this particular hunting expedition that flew well and killed and didn't get sick so were not presented to the vets.
I knew you would get confused with something mildly scientific... take your time, soak it in, and don't forget to ask for help for things you don't understand.

Talib

[Kornie]

PMSL, you crack me up talib...

[OhMyGod]

talib

the way I see it talib is that i can not look into my birds stomach to see what is going on. Probably the stomach is working at 100% (but i doubt it after an 8 month moult of rich food and no exercise) so I give rangle to loosen the musus after I have taken her weight down. I give it to her everyday during fitness training which will take me about 2 weeks, then I give lotts of castings to take away the mucus loosened by the rangle. This way I am 100% sure that my falcons stomach is working to 100% of its efficiancy without any doubt.

Tell me what is wrong with this as I am getting confused now.

[Talib]

The Late Lord Lucan wrote:
Oh, and here is a direct question for you Talib, hopefully you will be courteous enough to proffer a direct answer...

Sorry Lucky, but I find it a trifle difficult to be courteous to posters whose response to one of my previous posts was:

":lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hahahahahahahahahahaha Hahahahahhahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahaha Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

******.

:butthead:

You have ****in tickled me pink there Talib.
You come across as an intelligent articulate guy, but I don't think I have seen you post ANYTHING that is of any use."

Talib

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Sorry Lucky, but I find it a trifle difficult to be courteous to posters whose response to one of my previous posts was:



Hahahahahahahahahahaha Hahahahahhahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahaha Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

******.



You have ****in tickled me pink there Talib.
You come across as an intelligent articulate guy, but I don't think I have seen you post ANYTHING that is of any use.

I kind of guessed that you would not respond, but hey, I shall not be losing any sleep over it. I shall also not be wasting any more of my time reading anything else that you post either.
My apologies if you were offended by my post, that was not the intention, I just found your remarks a little amusing......well bloody hilarious actually.
I shall not beg your forgiveness for miss reading one sentence, I couldn't give a rats ass that you are that petty.
You have no knowledge whatsoever about any scientific knowledge that I may or may not posess, so dont waste YOUR time either making smart remarks about it.

Regards,
Lucky.

[OutFlying]

That last part of your post LLL sums up the "riddle" element of Talib's posts.

[Talib]

OhMyGod wrote:
talib


OhMyGod wrote:the way I see it talib is that i can not look into my birds stomach to see what is going on. Probably the stomach is working at 100% (but i doubt it after an 8 month moult of rich food and no exercise) so I give rangle to loosen the musus after I have taken her weight down. I give it to her everyday during fitness training which will take me about 2 weeks, then I give lotts of castings to take away the mucus loosened by the rangle. This way I am 100% sure that my falcons stomach is working to 100% of its efficiancy without any doubt.

Tell me what is wrong with this as I am getting confused now.

Sorry, been sidetracked by one of the forum jokers... I'm out of the door now, but will come back to your post later.

Talib

[SecretSquirrel]

I dont understand. when asked about responses to rangle and enseaming , why was there posted info. regarding the use of ammonium chloride crystals in the UAE falcons? we all know this from nick fox's work in the UAE.
what was in question I thought was the practice of using rangle in the uk . the use of rangle in the uk pertains to small pebbles yes? not ammonium chloride. so talib. . why cant you post your observations of this subject as we should have no troubles of killing our birdies with ammonium chloride toxicosis if we aren't using the crystals.

to the rest.. . do you advise that if your birdie wasnt taking rangle voluntarily that it isnt good practice to feed it to them? (just out of interest and for learning sake) thanks.

[Sprout]

What are the stimuli for the voluntary intake of small stones by birds of prey
How should I know what goes through a birds mind to make it want to eat stones? I guess they know it is good for them!! Probably the same stimulus that forces some animals to seek out salt, they consciously don't know they need it but something physiologically makes them seek out salt (elephants are a good example). How about some answers Talib from you (not quotes from other people). What are YOUR experiences.

[Tim Laycock]

How should I know what goes through a birds mind to make it want to eat stones? I guess they know it is good for them!!
Exactly!
When the crack of your @rse itches, you scratch it! :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

[Kornie]

Why do pregnant women fell the need to eat soil?

[Rob Redtail]

Must be some strange women up there in the borders.....

[Tim Laycock]

Why do pregnant women fell the need to eat soil?
:shock:

[Sprout]

Why do pregnant women fell the need to eat soil?
I guess they know it is good for them!!
From stories I've heard soil is not as extreme as some cravings!

[Tim Laycock]

My wife ate salt n' vinegar chip sticks and chocolate simultaneously :vom:

[MattSpar]

Nar listen up you lot. I wants ter tell yer a story, see? A right good 'un it is too , so, if yer all sittin' comfy like, I'll begin......
A long, long time ago see, like wen I was a young 'un, I used ter have real good fun see, flyin' me 'awks, 'an all that kind of fing. Used to treat 'em jes like wot them Old Timers done see? Well, red it in all the old books didn't I? Godder be rite innit? Picked me 'awks up from the moult, 'n give em all a course of rangle I did, jes like I waz told to by them old books. Wot d'yer fink 'appened eh? Me bleedin' birds flew like ******y they did. Burnt up the skies, cor, not 'alf! Then one day see, I met this Wise Man, 'n 'e sed to me, 'e sed, "Why do you persist in administering rangle to your birds when you pick them up from the moult?"
"Well, them books tells me to," I sed "Them little stones, they scours the birds insides they do, like usin' wire wool wen the Missus cleans a saucepan like. Cleans the stomach linin' it does, so they digests there grub more effishent like an' that's a fact. Well, stands ter reason, don't it?"
"Mmmm..." Sed the Wise Man, stroking his goatee beard, "Do you also use a flame thrower to light your cigarettes? A match would do just as well you know."
"Wot d'yer mean?" I sez.
"I gave up using rangle long ago," replied the Wise Man, "Why don't you come & see my birds fly?"
Well that's jus wot I did innit? Couldn't pass up a chance to show 'im 'ow much I knew could I? Give up using rangle indeed!! Whoever 'eard of such a fing eh? Cor stone the bleedin' crows. So off we went see.... an' wot d'you fink 'appened eh? 'Is bleedin' birds flew like ******y they did. Burnt up the skies, cor, not 'alf!
Well.... you could've nocked we darn wiv a fevver yer could. "But.. but.. wot's yer carefully guarded secret?" I sez.
"There's no secret," replied the Wise Man, stroking his beard again, "It's all to do with observation & not blindly following others without reason."
"Well, 'e must be tellin me porky's." I fort. "That can't be right." So, wot I done see, next moult, wen I picked me birds up, I didn't give 'em no rangle nor nuffin see? Jus cut 'em darn gradual kind of fing, an' give 'em loads of excercise like. Jes to see wot a big load of old codswallop the Wise Man was goin' on abaht see? Well, wot d'you fink 'appened eh? Me bleedin' birds flew like ******y they did. Burnt up the skies, cor, not 'alf!
.....So it was, that I realised the Wise Man(now gone to the Happy Flying Ground, God rest him) had been right after all.

[Tim Laycock]

Fair play! :|

[Jack Merlin]

I don't post to this group much any more. But as I posted to this thread earlier, I feel I ought to comment before going back to lurking.

Enseaming is the process of removing the internal fat (i.e. the energy reserves) from a bird of prey so that its behaviour can be controlled by appetite. That's it. No mystery involved.

Remove the fat and the bird realizes that it must make a kill soon or it is going to be in trouble. Train the hawk that it can satisfy appetite (a) by coming when called, and (b) making a kill, and you have a falconry bird.

There are various ways of removing this fat: Exercise, manipulation of diet, mechanical means, temperature, etc. In short, energy going out must be greater than energy taken in for fat loss to occur.

But fat removal is not enough. To fine tune, you need to hone the appetite. You need a healthy hawk at the peak of fitness, but one that is hungry and eager for the hunt.

The usual way these days is by "weight reduction". Crudely put, that means reducing the food intake. Intelligently done, it means reducing the food intake AND/OR lowering the quality of the food fed WHILE enhancing the appetite. That is where the art comes into falconry. A thin hawk does not have the courage to pursue quarry, so weight reduction alone will not cut it.

OK. You have removed most of the bird's internal fat. That, by the way, is the white or yellow stuff around the kidneys, intestine, and under the skin. But fat is also stored in the muscle tissue. Short term energy requirements are stored as sugars in the liver, blood, etc.

So removing the fat is not quite enough. The bird has to have an appetite. That is done by increasing fitness, feeding bulky foods to prevent stomach shrinkage (which counters the feelings of hunger), feeding (believe it or not) appetite enhancing foods -- i.e. food that the hawk likes and wants more of, and so on. There is also a psychological aspect. We all feel hungry at tea time after a long day. I'd suggest that that sort of hunger doesn't have much to do with weight reduction -- more to do with routine and habit.

Using tirings has the effect of exercising the hawk. The old falconers also used "plumage", that is allowing the hawk to pull the feathers out of a wing as work. Try pulling out wing feathers or pulling a tiring apart bwith your fingers and you will quickly realize how much work that hawk is doing. Carriage, with constant motion of the body and hand, is also work for a hawk. Work creates fitness and work includes things like daily flying, jump ups, flying to the kite, etc. Castings help clean out the upper digestive tract, removing any food or fat adherring to the internal linings, and seem to have an effect milder but similar to rangle.

Rangle has the effect of wiping out the stomach and upper digestive tract and removing some of the epithelium of the linings. It does remove fat (as anyone will know who has handled rangle cast by a fat hawk) from the inside of the stomach and it does enhance appetite. Wild hawks and some falconry birds take rangle voluntarily. It is safe to assume that since wild hawks take rangle, it has some beneficial effect to species survival -- or they wouldn't do it!

Do I use rangle? Yes. Because I find it helps hone that fine edge of the appetite. My guru (with 36 seasons of flying mostly passage peregrines at red grouse behind him) also uses rangle and having seen what he can achieve, I follow his lead.

Should we pay attention to what they said in the old books? Suit yourself. Some are good and some are bad. But you won't know if you don't read them. Personally, I read everything I can lay my hands on, old and modern, and I listen to everyone with more experience than myself. But at the end of the day, everyone has a right to his own opinion and I hope I have enough intelligence to sort the wheat from the chaff.

That is all I have to say on this subject and I am now going back to lurking. If anyone following this thread is interested in joining a group where opinions are respected and where experience is valued, please email me privately because we already have such a group up and running and it is very successful too.

[Tim Laycock]

:prayer: Its full of ripping stuff like this :wink:
Glad your still watching over this forum Jack 8)

[Sprout]

Well said Jack. Think that about says it all

[Bubo]

very interesting read thank you. sprout as jester asked do you think owls need it at all? i personally thought it was a 'crop' thing but it obviously isnt.

[Kornie]

Nice one jack, great read this thread,

[Talib]

OhMyGod wrote:
the way I see it talib is that i can not look into my birds stomach to see what is going on. Probably the stomach is working at 100% (but i doubt it after an 8 month moult of rich food and no exercise) so I give rangle to loosen the musus after I have taken her weight down. I give it to her everyday during fitness training which will take me about 2 weeks, then I give lotts of castings to take away the mucus loosened by the rangle. This way I am 100% sure that my falcons stomach is working to 100% of its efficiancy without any doubt.

Tell me what is wrong with this as I am getting confused now.

With your particular feeding regime then the giving of rangle may be of benefit. However, this is mainly due to the fact that you appear to feeding a mainly bone-deficient diet. Feeding adequate quantities of bone negates the raptor's need for rangle. Raptors ingest small stones to lower the pH of the contents of their stomachs... similar to humans taking Rennies, Setlers, Gaviscon or other antacids... the presence of bone within the raptor stomach has the same effect of lowering acidity.

The problem of excess acidity in the raptor stomach is exasperated by the fact that intermewed raptors that have been previously trained develop Pavlovian type reflexes with regard to gastric fluid production. In other words, when an intermewed raptor is hungry, gastric fluid production within its stomach is increased because of the expectation of a meal… simply the sight or sound of the falconer can elicit these responses… if the meal doesn’t arrive, or it is only a small amount, then this high acid content gastric fluid can cause irritation to lining of the stomach… the stomach counters this by increasing the release of mucus from glands lining the stomach, which helps protects the stomach from digesting itself… and digestion is impaired because of these actions/counteractions and a condition similar to acid indigestion in humans results. This can be unpleasant or worse for the raptor, it seeks relief by ingesting small stones, usually of an alkaline type if it has the choice, and these lessen the acid indigestion partly by lowering the pH of the acid and partly by just being there… because the stomach senses something is present and further expectation-driven acid release is inhibited.

If the meals of the raptor contain significant quantities of bone then meals spend longer in the raptor’s stomach being digested. The bone lowers the pH of the gastric fluid to its optimum acidity for proper digestion. (Gastric fluid acidity is higher on initial release into the stomach than its optimum working level, the raptor’s stomach expects bone to be present and for this to have a diluting effect.)

Also, adequate casting within the raptor stomach inhibits expectation-driven gastric fluid release in a hungry raptor. Raptors not receiving adequate casting are also more likely to have other digestion problems. Look at it this way… most of the raptors used in falconry have spent thousands of years evolving and have developed and retained the facility to digest bone and regurgitate casting… interrupt the natural progression and implementation of these mechanisms to a significant degree and you can expect problems.

Feeding bone in the diet along with sufficient natural casting when reducing/conditioning an intermewed raptor eliminates the “beneficial” effect of rangle… it’s simply not needed. If feeding meat only diets, washed or otherwise, when reducing/conditioning a raptor then it probably can be of some benefit. However, consider this… would you feed a child a diet that entailed it suffering from acid indigestion but was countered by popping a Rennies into his/hers mouth in-between meals, or would you feed the child a natural diet that it could digest without acid indigestion complication and needed no pills???

Talib

[Bubo]

hmmm very interesting but wild birds tend to use the gravel too. why do they not just gobble up the bones instead?

[Talib]

SecretSquirrel wrote:
I dont understand. when asked about responses to rangle and enseaming , why was there posted info. regarding the use of ammonium chloride crystals in the UAE falcons? we all know this from nick fox's work in the UAE.

The title of this thread is "Enseaming"... ammonium chloride and other substances are used in different parts of the world, including the UK and USA for "enseaming"... and I was specifically asked about "enseaming" methods I had knowledge about.

The article was by Jesus Naldo and Jaime H. Samour from the Fahad bin Sultan Falcon Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia... NOT Nick Fox in the UAE.

Talib

[Moses]

Why do pregnant women fell the need to eat soil?

lol i aint heard of that one mate :D

[Talib]

Bubo wrote:
hmmm very interesting but wild birds tend to use the gravel too. why do they not just gobble up the bones instead?

Most of the observations of wild raptors taking rangle are from nesting sites were females are present that do virtually no hunting of their own during the breeding season... the female's meals are provided by the male. If the meals are arriving late or being grabbed by the young first then a bit of rangle may work the same as it does on intermewed raptors.

Also, many of the instances of rangle being found at wild raptor sites has been with Kestrels... their typical diets at least in the early part of the breeding season may not contain sufficient bone. There ain't much bone in a beetle. Maybe the observers also spotted salt n' vinegar chip sticks and chocolate while they were there... pregnancy (egg laying) and other female activities sometimes defy explanation...

Talib

[Kornie]

Is it possible there may be some benificial substances on the stones, or in them?

I know stones are only small rocks but can something nutritional be extracted? Trace elements?

[Bubo]

good point kornie

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Well this has now turned into a good thread.

Mattspar i liked your story or should i say they way it was wrote. :D

Talib thank you for answering a question in full and explaining why you have come to this answer.

I cant believe the man with the long pockets and short arms has made another guess appearance. Well done Jack why didn't your write that at the start instead of being a pompous tart..... :heart: :heart:

[Gaz]

Is it possible there may be some benificial substances on the stones, or in them?

I know stones are only small rocks but can something nutritional be extracted? Trace elements
:?: :?: :idea:
Read(as oppose to scan) :lol: the posts by Talib & Jack and youve answered your own question :shock:

top thread by the way.. :finga:

[OutFlying]

OhMyGod wrote:
the way I see it talib is that i can not look into my birds stomach to see what is going on. Probably the stomach is working at 100% (but i doubt it after an 8 month moult of rich food and no exercise) so I give rangle to loosen the musus after I have taken her weight down. I give it to her everyday during fitness training which will take me about 2 weeks, then I give lotts of castings to take away the mucus loosened by the rangle. This way I am 100% sure that my falcons stomach is working to 100% of its efficiancy without any doubt.

Tell me what is wrong with this as I am getting confused now.

With your particular feeding regime then the giving of rangle may be of benefit. However, this is mainly due to the fact that you appear to feeding a mainly bone-deficient diet. Feeding adequate quantities of bone negates the raptor's need for rangle. Raptors ingest small stones to lower the pH of the contents of their stomachs... similar to humans taking Rennies, Setlers, Gaviscon or other antacids... the presence of bone within the raptor stomach has the same effect of lowering acidity.

The problem of excess acidity in the raptor stomach is exasperated by the fact that intermewed raptors that have been previously trained develop Pavlovian type reflexes with regard to gastric fluid production. In other words, when an intermewed raptor is hungry, gastric fluid production within its stomach is increased because of the expectation of a meal… simply the sight or sound of the falconer can elicit these responses… if the meal doesn’t arrive, or it is only a small amount, then this high acid content gastric fluid can cause irritation to lining of the stomach… the stomach counters this by increasing the release of mucus from glands lining the stomach, which helps protects the stomach from digesting itself… and digestion is impaired because of these actions/counteractions and a condition similar to acid indigestion in humans results. This can be unpleasant or worse for the raptor, it seeks relief by ingesting small stones, usually of an alkaline type if it has the choice, and these lessen the acid indigestion partly by lowering the pH of the acid and partly by just being there… because the stomach senses something is present and further expectation-driven acid release is inhibited.

If the meals of the raptor contain significant quantities of bone then meals spend longer in the raptor’s stomach being digested. The bone lowers the pH of the gastric fluid to its optimum acidity for proper digestion. (Gastric fluid acidity is higher on initial release into the stomach than its optimum working level, the raptor’s stomach expects bone to be present and for this to have a diluting effect.)

Also, adequate casting within the raptor stomach inhibits expectation-driven gastric fluid release in a hungry raptor. Raptors not receiving adequate casting are also more likely to have other digestion problems. Look at it this way… most of the raptors used in falconry have spent thousands of years evolving and have developed and retained the facility to digest bone and regurgitate casting… interrupt the natural progression and implementation of these mechanisms to a significant degree and you can expect problems.

Feeding bone in the diet along with sufficient natural casting when reducing/conditioning an intermewed raptor eliminates the “beneficial” effect of rangle… it’s simply not needed. If feeding meat only diets, washed or otherwise, when reducing/conditioning a raptor then it probably can be of some benefit. However, consider this… would you feed a child a diet that entailed it suffering from acid indigestion but was countered by popping a Rennies into his/hers mouth in-between meals, or would you feed the child a natural diet that it could digest without acid indigestion complication and needed no pills???

Talib

Thankyou Talib that's a well worded and informative reply.

[Kornie]

I have gaz, and the reasons there are full proof as far as im concerned! i was just wondering as a kind of little extra?

:prayer: thread of the month :prayer:

[MattSpar]

Blackbird wrote - Fair play!
Thank you Blackbird. I'm well aware I cause offence at times. It's not intentional. I hold strong views, & was taught to state them directly. We're all entitled to our opinions, of course.

[Tim Laycock]

Very similar to myself 8)
Good for you MattSpar :wink:

[Gaz]

I hold strong views, & was taught to state them directly
Im the exact opposite :!: as you will all have noticed :!: I have gaz
:supz:
thread of the month
:finga:

[Reuben]

With another hunting season fast approaching,I was just wondering how many forum members enseam their hawks after the moult ?

Reuben

[Kevin Massey]

reuben...moved your post to a relevent thread

[Hacker]

I have always wondered about this question of enseaming when people give wild birds as examples of enseaming.
Why would a well fed fat wild bop, and obviously succesful hunter or else it would not be fat and well fed, then decide it must digest rangle in order to get it into top condition in order to hunt as it is already in this situation, ie fat and well fed?

[Barbary Boy]

With another hunting season fast approaching,I was just wondering how many forum members enseam their hawks after the moult ?

Reuben
none? 99% dont know what enseaming is? theyd never heard of it b4 this thread and having only read "emma fords"book, which she wrote as a 16 yr old they prefer to use more modern methods?

[Hacker]

BB,
you should not discuss her more intimate moments m8!

[Reuben]

I have always wondered about this question of enseaming when people give wild birds as examples of enseaming.
Why would a well fed fat wild bop, and obviously succesful hunter or else it would not be fat and well fed, then decide it must digest rangle in order to get it into top condition in order to hunt as it is already in this situation, ie fat and well fed?

Maybe the wild BOP dos,nt "just decide" to ingest wrangle.
Maybe it,s carried out this process from the start of self hunting as part of the natural cycle ?
Reuben

[Reuben]

none? 99% dont know what enseaming is? theyd never heard of it b4 this thread and having only read "emma fords"book, which she wrote as a 16 yr old they prefer to use more modern methods?

Thanks BB,
I did,nt think I was going to get a reply to this one:)
Reuben

[Falconry Equipment International]

Have been enseaming for years( see beginning of thread):yawinkle: posted on this about 18 months ago

[OhMyGod]

I enseam, as do others I know

[OutFlying]

Hello Mark,
Good description of it in Ray Turner's Gamehawk, Field and Moor book - worth a read.

Jim.

[FredrickFogg]

Mine is about 34 inches! Oh, you said enseam, not inseam. :lol: I have pea gravel in my aviary, so if my birds want it, it is there, but I don't give it to them. :supz:

Fred

[Hardcore Hawker]

I also have always enseamed my birds for a few days when taken out of the aviary until mucus covering on rangle diminishes also whilst administering this check the mutes you will see a stark difference in colour and consistancy. I believe all carnivores enseam themselves one way or another dogs and cats eat grass to irritate the stomach and if you have ever looked at the vomit this produces you would see it is very greasy mucus that is produced its a natural cleansing process, whether it makes a marked diffrence in performance or not im not sure but will continue to use this method as i feel it is a natural process.

[Jiff]

to be honnest, barbary boys statement certainly applies to me, i knew about rangle and it's affect on clearing crop, i had no idea what enseaming was till i read this, can i just add as a fairly new austringer that at the start i would put small pea gravel in a chicks mouth or where ever to ensure my bird took rangle on board, however over a period of time i notice small peices of gravel in her casting without me adding it, it was soon evident that my bird was taking rangle voluntaraly, is enseaming a necessity, how do birds in the wild clear them selves or is the problem created by us fattening them up to moult, how do you know how much fat the bird is carrying, how do you know when to start/stop enseaming, as regards books, i've read a few and can remember no chapters on this subject,

[OutFlying]

Hello Mark,
Good description of it in Ray Turner's Gamehawk, Field and Moor book - worth a read.

Jim.

See above.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

See above.


Hi jim

Thanks for that but this was posted 17 months ago:lol:

Regards

[Kevin Massey]

Hi jim

Thanks for that but this was posted 17 months ago:lol:

Regards

mark it was resurrected when i merged a started thread (same subject) to it....often its easier to do this than watch the repeats:lol:

[Reuben]

I also have always enseamed my birds for a few days when taken out of the aviary until mucus covering on rangle diminishes also whilst administering this check the mutes you will see a stark difference in colour and consistancy. I believe all carnivores enseam themselves one way or another dogs and cats eat grass to irritate the stomach and if you have ever looked at the vomit this produces you would see it is very greasy mucus that is produced its a natural cleansing process, whether it makes a marked diffrence in performance or not im not sure but will continue to use this method as i feel it is a natural process.

I agree, I think it also affects the metabolic rate making weight reduction easier in captive hawks.
Reuben