Problems with the Kite

[Mufassa]

hi guys, this is my first post here.. im a falconer from south africa. and one of my mates is having problems with his female african peregrine and the kite.. the bird goes up really nicely to a thousand feet with no hassils but when there is no lure up there, the bird doesn't want to know anything about it.. and when the kite isn't around, then the bird always sits on the floor and poles and anything.. he's not sure what to do to correct the bird.. any suggestions? we have even tried throwing pigeons that the bird will get everytime its pitch increases, but he never really goes higher than 60 meters off the ground, and if he leaves her up too long, then down she comes to sit!!

Nick

[Jonathan526]

Hey Nick,
I haven't flown straight peregrines but my friend swears to raise their weight as long as you have some lure response and eventually the bird will be so engergetic it'll want to go up. I'd make sure the bird isn't being rewarded for bad behavior. I don't use a lure on my quick release, I just hang half a quail up there and its probably harder to see when its not up there. Let me know how if finally works out.

[CloudBase1664]

hi guys, this is my first post here.. im a falconer from south africa. and one of my mates is having problems with his female african peregrine and the kite.. the bird goes up really nicely to a thousand feet with no hassils but when there is no lure up there, the bird doesn't want to know anything about it.. and when the kite isn't around, then the bird always sits on the floor and poles and anything.. he's not sure what to do to correct the bird.. any suggestions? we have even tried throwing pigeons that the bird will get everytime its pitch increases, but he never really goes higher than 60 meters off the ground, and if he leaves her up too long, then down she comes to sit!!

Nick
The first thing I would do is BURN THE KITE!!!Then go back to basics.

Dave

[Ginty]

:lol::lol::lol:



The first thing I would do is BURN THE KITE!!!Then go back to basics.

Dave

[SmallPeregrine]

hi guys, this is my first post here.. im a falconer from south africa. and one of my mates is having problems with his female african peregrine and the kite.. the bird goes up really nicely to a thousand feet with no hassils but when there is no lure up there, the bird doesn't want to know anything about it.. and when the kite isn't around, then the bird always sits on the floor and poles and anything.. he's not sure what to do to correct the bird.. any suggestions? we have even tried throwing pigeons that the bird will get everytime its pitch increases, but he never really goes higher than 60 meters off the ground, and if he leaves her up too long, then down she comes to sit!!

Nick
Dear Nick
My mate Marmite from Spain says try this:yawinkle:....
knock some weight off it about 7 grms, dont use kite for a couple of weeks and pigeon her.
get yourself on as open a vista as possible and get some strong Trafalga's (pigeons). 1st one, seal one eye and hopefully she will catch it, next time throw a pair of trafalgars out, time after that, throw a pair out, one half sealed (every third flight make sure she kils one and that will keep her confidence up and form a trust bond between the falconer and falcon).Repeat this process for three weeks and you will find she will follow you anywhere you walk gaining height all the time anticipating your every move. (tip; when your throwing the trafalgars you shout or blow a refs whistle as hard as you can)
When the three weeks is up, get the kite out with lure on a put the kite up as high as you can get it (about 1600ft). She will climb to it no probs, when she about 800ft run out from the kite reel, shouting etc and throw out a sealed one and I guarentee she will turn over and have it. Do this for a couple of days but dont seal the trafalgars, maybe throw a younger pigeon out, reward everytime.
Go back to trafalgar training as 1st explained throwing unsealed ones out, every third flight make sure she kills one and that will keep her confidence up.
What your hopefully teaching the Falcon with this method is that height is paramount and produces success. Never reward negative behaviour only reward on positive performances, if she sits down pick her up with a small titbit and hood her up and try later. The achilles heel with this method is your mate, tell him to sharpen up on the birds conditioning or he will fail even with this tried and tested recipe!
Kites Rule Dave, you Palestine:D
My mate and I says best of luck:lol:
Phil

[Mufassa]

thank you very much small peregrine, i will pass this onto my friend and hopefully this advice will help him

really appreciate it

regards Nick

[Heike]

Dear Nick
My mate Marmite from Spain says try this:yawinkle:....
knock some weight off it about 7 grms, dont use kite for a couple of weeks and pigeon her.
get yourself on as open a vista as possible and get some strong Trafalga's (pigeons). 1st one, seal one eye and hopefully she will catch it, next time throw a pair of trafalgars out, time after that, throw a pair out, one half sealed (every third flight make sure she kils one and that will keep her confidence up and form a trust bond between the falconer and falcon).Repeat this process for three weeks and you will find she will follow you anywhere you walk gaining height all the time anticipating your every move. (tip; when your throwing the trafalgars you shout or blow a refs whistle as hard as you can)
When the three weeks is up, get the kite out with lure on a put the kite up as high as you can get it (about 1600ft). She will climb to it no probs, when she about 800ft run out from the kite reel, shouting etc and throw out a sealed one and I guarentee she will turn over and have it. Do this for a couple of days but dont seal the trafalgars, maybe throw a younger pigeon out, reward everytime.
Go back to trafalgar training as 1st explained throwing unsealed ones out, every third flight make sure she kills one and that will keep her confidence up.
What your hopefully teaching the Falcon with this method is that height is paramount and produces success. Never reward negative behaviour only reward on positive performances, if she sits down pick her up with a small titbit and hood her up and try later. The achilles heel with this method is your mate, tell him to sharpen up on the birds conditioning or he will fail even with this tried and tested recipe!
Kites Rule Dave, you Palestine:D
My mate and I says best of luck:lol:
Phil


This will be the international bit of this forum, eh

[SmallPeregrine]

This will be the international bit of this forum, eh
'No **** sherlock'!
:lol:

[Jack]

Don't burn the kite and don't start tossing pigeons. The reason he is at a loss is because he don't really know what he is doing. The falcon goes up to the lure, which is her incentive to fly. Without it, she is not so inspired. What I like to do is toss the lure back into my hawking bag and start attaching tidbits on little drop lines up the kite main line. You can use 5 or 6 of them about 25 to 50 feet apart. As she goes up to get the tidbits she will pluck them one at a time until she has taken them all. Once she has taken them all, she will go right back to see if there are more. It is at this time that you might consider tossing the pigeon or whatever large bird you have. She will commit into a stoop and this is what you want. Do this a few times and she will mount in expectation of the flush. She will mount without the kite. It takes a plan to make it work. You have to know where you are going once she is mounting for the lure. That is why I do it the way I do.

Jack

[Keith Barker]

Don't burn the kite and don't start tossing pigeons. The reason he is at a loss is because he don't really know what he is doing. The falcon goes up to the lure, which is her incentive to fly. Without it, she is not so inspired. What I like to do is toss the lure back into my hawking bag and start attaching tidbits on little drop lines up the kite main line. You can use 5 or 6 of them about 25 to 50 feet apart. As she goes up to get the tidbits she will pluck them one at a time until she has taken them all. Once she has taken them all, she will go right back to see if there are more. It is at this time that you might consider tossing the pigeon or whatever large bird you have. She will commit into a stoop and this is what you want. Do this a few times and she will mount in expectation of the flush. She will mount without the kite. It takes a plan to make it work. You have to know where you are going once she is mounting for the lure. That is why I do it the way I do.

Jack

hello jack,
could we possibly see a video of this method of trainning your falcon to wait on i would love to see it.
keith

[Dean]

The first thing I would do is BURN THE KITE!!!Then go back to basics.

Dave
You beat me to it Dave!:roll::roll:Thing is,its no good going back to basics now,as a gamehawk the bird is most likely ****ed!!!!

[SmallPeregrine]

Don't burn the kite and don't start tossing pigeons. The reason he is at a loss is because he don't really know what he is doing. The falcon goes up to the lure, which is her incentive to fly. Without it, she is not so inspired. What I like to do is toss the lure back into my hawking bag and start attaching tidbits on little drop lines up the kite main line. You can use 5 or 6 of them about 25 to 50 feet apart. As she goes up to get the tidbits she will pluck them one at a time until she has taken them all. Once she has taken them all, she will go right back to see if there are more. It is at this time that you might consider tossing the pigeon or whatever large bird you have. She will commit into a stoop and this is what you want. Do this a few times and she will mount in expectation of the flush. She will mount without the kite. It takes a plan to make it work. You have to know where you are going once she is mounting for the lure. That is why I do it the way I do.

Jack
Jack
Sounds a bit like 'going round the houses' to me and putting all them drop lines on the kite looks like your fishing for Mackeral rather than flying a Falcon to Kite.
I think... I mean my mate from Spain reckons his bird is kite bound and is not flying unless the kite is presented in the sky. The last thing he wants to do is give it more kite lessons to me.
I think... I mean my mate in Spain says; get away from the kite for a while utilise the phyiscal flying capacity the Falcon has achieved from the kite already. Stimulate her from a different angle ( Trafalgars), try and abolish her self reliance from the kite as the only feeding platform. Get her on Trafalgars stimulate mentally, tap into her hunting instinct' and form the trust bond between falcon and Falconer. Later on go back to the kite for perfecting the stooping technique by all means as mentioned in my previous post and 'Bobs your Uncle and Fanny's your Aunt'
As the kite Guru said D.Scrabrough 'Keep it simple'
to be continued....:lol:
BOL
Phil

[CloudBase1664]

You beat me to it Dave!:roll::roll:Thing is,its no good going back to basics now,as a gamehawk the bird is most likely ****ed!!!!

Dean Your right! prevention is better than cure .If you are new to gamehawking you are playing a dangerous game going for a kite It can creat more problems than it cures .The Yanks do seem to have their heads around it better than the rest of us but in the UK there is still a long way to go.There's no doubt kite trained hawks are full of flying and once kite folk stop preaching the kite gospel and start to acknowledge there are problems to overcome the sooner they will start to produce decent reliable gamehawks .Similar to those trained traditionally:lol:

Dave

[Dean]

I think kites are fashionable,not practical!Maybe of use for imprints,if you have the patience,as for parent reared falcons,they will go up,if you have the technique to keep them off their feet!!!Trouble is,people aquire falcons and automatically think of kite training nowadays,and most of these falconers have already trained and succesfully flew mounting falcons before??????:-|I think it maybe just the prestige of doing it to be honest!!:-|:D

[Judd Casper]

hi guys, this is my first post here.. im a falconer from south africa. and one of my mates is having problems with his female african peregrine and the kite.. the bird goes up really nicely to a thousand feet with no hassils but when there is no lure up there, the bird doesn't want to know anything about it.. and when the kite isn't around, then the bird always sits on the floor and poles and anything.. he's not sure what to do to correct the bird.. any suggestions? we have even tried throwing pigeons that the bird will get everytime its pitch increases, but he never really goes higher than 60 meters off the ground, and if he leaves her up too long, then down she comes to sit!!

NickBurn the kite forget any idea about using pigeons and get out and get it on the real thing ASAP it can't be beaten though it might already be a lost cause with this hawk.The bad habits might be just to much work to bother rectifying in this hawk if your into the quick fix.


Sam

[SmallPeregrine]

Burn the kite forget any idea about using pigeons and get out and get it on the real thing ASAP it can't be beaten though it might already be a lost cause with this hawk.The bad habits might be just to much work to bother rectifying in this hawk if your into the quick fix.


Sam
Sam Dean and Dave
Why are you's guys so anti Kite especially when you have not tried it??......
How can you knock a flying apperatus that in a 20 day intense training course;

Help develop the Falcons physical metabolism that stays the falcon the rest of its life(ie quicker moults, retain high amount of fitness in off season)
Teaches the new Falcon to fly and handle the wind at great heights(the wind being the Falconers biggest foe)
Teaches the Falconer the basics of conditioning his new Falcon as she perfects her flying skills in that time period (ie if she is too low she cant climb to the great heights or too heavy will sit down and not bother)
Teaching the Falcon to perfect her vertical stooping potential very early on in her career, something a traditional Gamehawk can takes years in doing and in some cases not ever perfect.
In advance stages turn a negative flying performance into a positive one, resulting in a kill; i.e flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins fly to kite@ high pitch flush same quarry under kite resulting in kill and as Gordon Ramsay says job done. These are just a few reasons why you should kite off top me headWith the traditonal method which I have done in past, there is too many variables.
Your battling with fitness all the way through, put wind into the equation less flying days more none flying days and as you guys know its repetitive positive lessons early on that forms the falcon into either a good flying falcon or a aviary bird.
Prime example the point I made above turning a negative into a positive same scenerio with a traditonal trained falcon ie 'if that were a flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins and do what fly again? what if you underestimated the birds condition 'cause you know trad. bird is not fit and its too low, your fly the bird again and it performs even worse??? When do you give it its feed back home and knacker up its flying times for following day. As I say too many variables no set routine, traditional method, fitness of falcon always against you...
To be continued
Phil

[Dean]

Sam Dean and Dave
Why are you's guys so anti Kite especially when you have not tried it??......

How can you knock a flying apperatus that in a 20 day intense training course;
Help develop the Falcons physical metabolism that stays the falcon the rest of its life(ie quicker moults, retain high amount of fitness in off season)
Teaches the new Falcon to fly and handle the wind at great heights(the wind being the Falconers biggest foe)
Teaches the Falconer the basics of conditioning his new Falcon as she perfects her flying skills in that time period (ie if she is too low she cant climb to the great heights or too heavy will sit down and not bother)
Teaching the Falcon to perfect her vertical stooping potential very early on in her career, something a traditional Gamehawk can takes years in doing and in some cases not ever perfect.
In advance stages turn a negative flying performance into a positive one, resulting in a kill; i.e flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins fly to kite@ high pitch flush same quarry under kite resulting in kill and as Gordon Ramsay says job done. These are just a few reasons why you should kite off top me headWith the traditonal method which I have done in past, there is too many variables.
Your battling with fitness all the way through, put wind into the equation less flying days more none flying days and as you guys know its repetitive positive lessons early on that forms the falcon into either a good flying falcon or a aviary bird.
Prime example the point I made above turning a negative into a positive same scenerio with a traditonal trained falcon ie 'if that were a flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins and do what fly again? what if you underestimated the birds condition 'cause you know trad. bird is not fit and its too low, your fly the bird again and it performs even worse??? When do you give it its feed back home and knacker up its flying times for following day. As I say too many variables no set routine, traditional method, fitness of falcon always against you...
To be continued
Phil
Phil,my falcons do not sit,take up my required pitch,quickly,stoop out their game,and all this with lure training and timing!Why on earth would I want to add problems by lugging a kite around,setting it up and make my falconry difficult!Keep it simple,keep em focused!!!!:lol:

[Tezz]

Sam Dean and Dave
Why are you's guys so anti Kite especially when you have not tried it??......
How can you knock a flying apperatus that in a 20 day intense training course;

Help develop the Falcons physical metabolism that stays the falcon the rest of its life(ie quicker moults, retain high amount of fitness in off season)
Teaches the new Falcon to fly and handle the wind at great heights(the wind being the Falconers biggest foe)
Teaches the Falconer the basics of conditioning his new Falcon as she perfects her flying skills in that time period (ie if she is too low she cant climb to the great heights or too heavy will sit down and not bother)
Teaching the Falcon to perfect her vertical stooping potential very early on in her career, something a traditional Gamehawk can takes years in doing and in some cases not ever perfect.
In advance stages turn a negative flying performance into a positive one, resulting in a kill; i.e flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins fly to kite@ high pitch flush same quarry under kite resulting in kill and as Gordon Ramsay says job done. These are just a few reasons why you should kite off top me headWith the traditonal method which I have done in past, there is too many variables.
Your battling with fitness all the way through, put wind into the equation less flying days more none flying days and as you guys know its repetitive positive lessons early on that forms the falcon into either a good flying falcon or a aviary bird.
Prime example the point I made above turning a negative into a positive same scenerio with a traditonal trained falcon ie 'if that were a flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins and do what fly again? what if you underestimated the birds condition 'cause you know trad. bird is not fit and its too low, your fly the bird again and it performs even worse??? When do you give it its feed back home and knacker up its flying times for following day. As I say too many variables no set routine, traditional method, fitness of falcon always against you...
To be continued
Phil


Excellent Dave:goodman: well put your the man, although it probably doesn't mean much coming from me who is a novice:yawinkle: and has never experienced gamehawking and knows jack---t:lol:

Keep up the fight for the kite:supz:

Tezz

[SmallPeregrine]

Phil,my falcons do not sit,take up my required pitch,quickly,stoop out their game,and all this with lure training and timing!Why on earth would I want to add problems by lugging a kite around,setting it up and make my falconry difficult!Keep it simple,keep em focused!!!!:lol:
Dean
I'm not insinuating your falcons do, it was a genralisation, just like you guys have stated kite training technique is seriously flawed.
Like every other method theres a right way and a wrong way.
I do agree it is a very labour intesive training apperatus but you prosper in saving time in the long term. You attain super fitness in your new Falcon very early on.
As for keeping it simple, training a Falcon to the kite is very simple technique of getting the Falcon fit in a very short period of time and stooping at quarry*.
No looking and travelling over great distances to fly.
Kite training can be done in the same field day after day in that influential
part of its training development.
Get the bird fit from ofset and you attain the correct flying weight at the same time. Plus encouraging the new charge to fly in the wind and thats before you go hunting in a 20day training cycle cant knock it myself Dean. It certainly eliminates a lot more problems than create them I think:D.
All the best
Phil

[SmallPeregrine]

Excellent Dave:goodman: well put your the man, although it probably doesn't mean much coming from me who is a novice:yawinkle: and has never experienced gamehawking and knows jack---t:lol:

Keep up the fight for the kite

Tezz
Tezz me names Phil
Cheers:-D

[Judd Casper]

SeniorSam Dean and Dave
Why are you's guys so anti Kite especially when you have not tried it??......
How can you knock a flying apperatus that in a 20 day intense training course;

Help develop the Falcons physical metabolism that stays the falcon the rest of its life(ie quicker moults, retain high amount of fitness in off season)
Teaches the new Falcon to fly and handle the wind at great heights(the wind being the Falconers biggest foe)
Teaches the Falconer the basics of conditioning his new Falcon as she perfects her flying skills in that time period (ie if she is too low she cant climb to the great heights or too heavy will sit down and not bother)
Teaching the Falcon to perfect her vertical stooping potential very early on in her career, something a traditional Gamehawk can takes years in doing and in some cases not ever perfect.
In advance stages turn a negative flying performance into a positive one, resulting in a kill; i.e flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins fly to kite@ high pitch flush same quarry under kite resulting in kill and as Gordon Ramsay says job done. These are just a few reasons why you should kite off top me headWith the traditonal method which I have done in past, there is too many variables.
Your battling with fitness all the way through, put wind into the equation less flying days more none flying days and as you guys know its repetitive positive lessons early on that forms the falcon into either a good flying falcon or a aviary bird.
Prime example the point I made above turning a negative into a positive same scenerio with a traditonal trained falcon ie 'if that were a flying at a low pitch flushing quarry and getting beat, minimal reward put hood on wait 20mins and do what fly again? what if you underestimated the birds condition 'cause you know trad. bird is not fit and its too low, your fly the bird again and it performs even worse??? When do you give it its feed back home and knacker up its flying times for following day. As I say too many variables no set routine, traditional method, fitness of falcon always against you...
To be continued
PhilSenior Marmite i have held council with you on the phone and wasted far too much of my life on this matter already. If you think i am gonna do it on here too you are mistaken....but i have read the above have you been on the sauce again:lol:


Sam

[SmallPeregrine]

SeniorSenior Marmite i have held council with you on the phone and wasted far too much of my life on this matter already. If you think i am gonna do it on here too you are mistaken....but i have read the above have you been on the sauce again:lol:


Sam

Dear Sam
If you mean Tetley tea bags being sauce than yes....:goodman:
Come on young ' Uncle Festa' unlike you to take this opportunity put your penith in??
Come on you kow you want to?
Kites birds rule
LOL
Phil:heart:

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

There's no doubt kite trained hawks are full of flying and once kite folk stop preaching the kite gospel and start to acknowledge there are problems to overcome the sooner they will start to produce decent reliable gamehawks .Similar to those trained traditionally:lol:

Dave

Hi Dave,
I wouldn't say most kite flyers are preaching the gospel. But you do hear a few people knocking the kite method and when someone puts their hand up and defends it they are then accused of trying to force it down peoples throats!
I think all the methods work well and Ive trained falcons using both methods but at the moment the kite suits my local conditions better.
This 'burn the kite' idea is a bit close minded don't you think.
Hal was kite trained, as was Zulu, as was Bertie, as was Tye, as was Regal.
There you go five hawks off the top of my head that were decent and reliable and kite trained so it can't be a totally useless idea can it?.
Im open to all ideas and don't think one method is any better than the other.
They all work IF done well.
Nick

[Tezz]

Tezz me names Phil
Cheers:-D

Sorry Phil
Do it all the time with the wife:lol:

Tezz

[Dean]

Dean
I'm not insinuating your falcons do, it was a genralisation, just like you guys have stated kite training technique is seriously flawed.
Like every other method theres a right way and a wrong way.
I do agree it is a very labour intesive training apperatus but you prosper in saving time in the long term. You attain super fitness in your new Falcon very early on.
As for keeping it simple, training a Falcon to the kite is very simple technique of getting the Falcon fit in a very short period of time and stooping at quarry*.
No looking and travelling over great distances to fly.
Kite training can be done in the same field day after day in that influential
part of its training development.
Get the bird fit from ofset and you attain the correct flying weight at the same time. Plus encouraging the new charge to fly in the wind and thats before you go hunting in a 20day training cycle cant knock it myself Dean. It certainly eliminates a lot more problems than create them I think:D.
All the best
Phil
Im gonna agree sort of!!!!!!There are good kite trained falcons,and I do beleive this,although the few I have seen spent far too much time waiting off,maybe this is due to the falconers enjoying kite flying before getting down and dirty!!And,there are just as many good traditionally trained falcons!But,the way I fly it suits me to train my birds,or attempt too,a little slower!If I were to take a falcon up from pen,I would expect her over a duck come four weeks later,mid september!!!I know I like easy game for my eyas,s but any earlier and they would be scoopin em!!!If kite training is about massive pitch and twenty odd minutes waiting on periods,then this would,nt suit my needs either,simply because of terrain!!!If my birds do,in layman terms,3 pylons in height and vertical a mallard out from here,I have had a good flight!!!!Slightly more I am ecstatic,much more and I have problems with witnessing every aspect of the flight!!!!

[Tezz]

Im gonna agree sort of!!!!!!There are good kite trained falcons,and I do beleive this,although the few I have seen spent far too much time waiting off,maybe this is due to the falconers enjoying kite flying before getting down and dirty!!And,there are just as many good traditionally trained falcons!But,the way I fly it suits me to train my birds,or attempt too,a little slower!If I were to take a falcon up from pen,I would expect her over a duck come four weeks later,mid september!!!I know I like easy game for my eyas,s but any earlier and they would be scoopin em!!!If kite training is about massive pitch and twenty odd minutes waiting on periods,then this would,nt suit my needs either,simply because of terrain!!!If my birds do,in layman terms,3 pylons in height and vertical a mallard out from here,I have had a good flight!!!!Slightly more I am ecstatic,much more and I have problems with witnessing every aspect of the flight!!!!

Dean
You fly to your means, if that be you terrain is close country then you find the pitch that you can get away with. As a mate:wink: I would love to try and convert you to the kite but I think this would be impossible.

Hope ya tiercel is coming on ok.

TEZZ

[CloudBase1664]

Hi Dave,
.
This 'burn the kite' idea is a bit close minded don't you think.

In this case Nick I think it might be a bit radical but not close minded.As Jack said "you need to have a plan"For this guy the wheels have clearly come off I think his best chance is to go back to bassics.Serve the hawk before it lands in the traditional manner and take it from there .

Hal was kite trained, as was Zulu, as was Bertie, as was Tye, as was Regal.
There you go five hawks off the top of my head that were decent and reliable and kite trained so it can't be a totally useless idea can it?.


Of course not ,but it is frought with dangers that many are not aware of or tend to turn a blind eye to.Since the kite became de rigueur hundreds must have been trained in this manner probably more than are trained using the old methods.Five very good hawks over what?nearly 10 yrs is not a very good return .

Im open to all ideas and don't think one method is any better than the other.
They all work IF done well.
I respect that but I still remained unconvinced myself.
Dave

[SmallPeregrine]

Im gonna agree sort of!!!!!!There are good kite trained falcons,and I do beleive this,although the few I have seen spent far too much time waiting off,maybe this is due to the falconers enjoying kite flying before getting down and dirty!!And,there are just as many good traditionally trained falcons!But,the way I fly it suits me to train my birds,or attempt too,a little slower!If I were to take a falcon up from pen,I would expect her over a duck come four weeks later,mid september!!!I know I like easy game for my eyas,s but any earlier and they would be scoopin em!!!If kite training is about massive pitch and twenty odd minutes waiting on periods,then this would,nt suit my needs either,simply because of terrain!!!If my birds do,in layman terms,3 pylons in height and vertical a mallard out from here,I have had a good flight!!!!Slightly more I am ecstatic,much more and I have problems with witnessing every aspect of the flight!!!!

Fair point Dean
Totally agree with your circumstances concerning your terrian.
I think you have been out with Kite guys who are not really falconers, like you say taking enjoyment of their falcon waiting on two postcodes away.
I would guarantee if you just done the basic 1000ft 10 day training scheme, developing the Falcons muscle and lung capacity and applied your own training would reep rewards throughout that Falcons flying career, no problem in seasons of attaining fitness etc.
I must admit I have a right ball ache flying my Falcon 'cause of the high pitches she takes and find it difficult to find setups here in North East at times, if I lived in Lincolnshire or Norfolkshire different story. Me Tiercel is far more managable doing 500' or so and thats high enough for Ducks which he excels at. Its not all about pitch as you know its about falcon flying disciplined around Falconer and foccussed on Game stooping on quarry and que.
As you mentioned witnessing every aspect of the flight is paramount in my eyes too..
All the best
Phil

[SmallPeregrine]

Of course not ,but it is frought with dangers that many are not aware of or tend to turn a blind eye to.Since the kite became de rigueur hundreds must have been trained in this manner probably more than are trained using the old methods.Five very good hawks over what?nearly 10 yrs is not a very good return .

Im open to all ideas and don't think one method is any better than the other.
They all work IF done well.
I respect that but I still remained unconvinced myself.
Dave
Dave
Dave traditional methods have reigned for hundreds of years and hunderds of thousands of falcons being trained by these methods like to know the failure rate compared to success rate bet you its massive.
Kiting is relatively new training technique, probably only being perfected over last 15yrs what I experienced the success ratio when its done right has a higher success rate.
People have a miss conception about kiting, thinking it makes their Falcon a killing machine from the offset.... which is ********!
They can stray further but its down to conditioning applied by falconer to keep discipline and focuss around Falconer, its certainly not because of the kite training technique?
Cheers
Phil:lol:

[Falconry Equipment International]

Hmm just worked my way through this thread, some of you may know I have been an exponent to kite flying for many years, and have actually supplied some falconers with equipment for hawks mentioned on here.
Having said all that ~ and yes I will be kiting my new Anatum ( thread to be started in next day or so on her) BUT with many proviso's . Yes it's an integral part of my training but I also go along with Sam , Dean , Dave etc . We have all seen kite trained hawks eating up the sky and waiting off ( even had it on my hawks on the rare occasion:oops::roll: ) , but no one seems to have mentioned what may be obvious to all us seasoned campaigners, but not so to newbies to this discipline of the sport is that word that means so much and all to often different things to different falconers..... condition. To me in a hawks 1st season I want to get it over what I call its baby vertigo ( and yes the kite is obvious for this) , and apart from that I am not worried about pitch as with judicious serving of quarry will helop that. What I do want is the hawk to be motivated to both climb and still maintain focus on me/ the dogs, and finally stooping with real sense of urgency and conviction when the flush is called.
I am certainly not worried about head counts, just in trying to get some sort of routine with positve lessons hopefully on a daily basis to build for following seasons.
i have seen ( and despite my advice) falconers buying kite equipment from me, floundering and having great problems either with weaning from the kite, out of position /waiting off, refusing to stoop on the flush, and of course the problems the 1st poster has made. Hope this all makes sesne and helps

[Dean]

Dean
You fly to your means, if that be you terrain is close country then you find the pitch that you can get away with. As a mate:wink: I would love to try and convert you to the kite but I think this would be impossible.

Hope ya tiercel is coming on ok.

TEZZ
Well,he sorta does,nt want me too close,but doesnt want me too far away either???If ya get what I mean!!!:confused:Hope this sticks with him during flyin!!!!:wink:

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

Of course not ,but it is frought with dangers that many are not aware of or tend to turn a blind eye to.Since the kite became de rigueur hundreds must have been trained in this manner probably more than are trained using the old methods.Five very good hawks over what?nearly 10 yrs is not a very good return .

Im open to all ideas and don't think one method is any better than the other.
They all work IF done well.
I respect that but I still remained unconvinced myself.
Dave

Dave,
Every method is frought with dangers.
Ive seen loads of traditionally trained birds that were awful, one of them was my own but didn't think it was the method, just the application of the method if that make sense.
There are more than five hawks obviously its just those came to my head quickly. The small number is due to the kite being a newish idea and the idea of doing it with a plan newer still still.
So in that respect,I suppose we mostly agree.
I come back to one point whenever the kite is brought up. Most falconers I know are using it now and none have gone back to traditional methods..
That must tell you something.
It suits some peoples circumstances, but is not a quick-fix as some people put it because its hard work and generally you are entering your hawk at a later date the than the traditionalists.
Nick

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

Im gonna agree sort of!!!!!!There are good kite trained falcons,and I do beleive this,although the few I have seen spent far too much time waiting off,maybe this is due to the falconers enjoying kite flying before getting down and dirty!!And,there are just as many good traditionally trained falcons!But,the way I fly it suits me to train my birds,or attempt too,a little slower!If I were to take a falcon up from pen,I would expect her over a duck come four weeks later,mid september!!!I know I like easy game for my eyas,s but any earlier and they would be scoopin em!!!If kite training is about massive pitch and twenty odd minutes waiting on periods,then this would,nt suit my needs either,simply because of terrain!!!If my birds do,in layman terms,3 pylons in height and vertical a mallard out from here,I have had a good flight!!!!Slightly more I am ecstatic,much more and I have problems with witnessing every aspect of the flight!!!!

Good points Dean,
Im not a pitch chaser, I just find that the kite is the easiest way to give me some kind of pitch to work on in the early season. After that its up to the hawk and the nature of my duck set ups as to how high it goes.
Im after the pitch that works while still being as high as possible.
In most cases on my ground with lots of flood water etc later on in the season this is 500-600 feet. That'll do me as any higher an the ducks tend to start making other water and beating the falcon.
Nick

[CloudBase1664]

Dave traditional methods have reigned for hundreds of years and hunderds of thousands of falcons being trained by these methods like to know the failure rate compared to success rate bet you its massive.

Of course it is Phil .Many hawks will never make gamehawks all the time they have a hole in their ****.However they are trained and whoever trains them.

Kiting done right has a higher success rate.

What do you base this assumption on?


People have a miss conception about kiting, thinking it makes their Falcon a killing machine from the offset.... which is ********!


I agree.
Dave:)

[SmallPeregrine]

Of course it is Phil .Many hawks will never make gamehawks all the time they have a hole in their ****.However they are trained and whoever trains them.

Kiting done right has a higher success rate.

What do you base this assumption on?


People have a miss conception about kiting, thinking it makes their Falcon a killing machine from the offset.... which is ********!


I agree.
Dave:)

Ah but Dave some of those birds that failed trained by traditional methods, had they been trained by the kite method maybe they would have made the grade in the field. Like I say you have more to work with, when a Falcon or Tiercel is fit before you introduce it Game. Maybe that why our ancestors always hanker or preffered to fly Haggards or Passage because of their fitness levels and disreggarded taking on a young eyass and go about the laborious tradional training methods to get it fit????
The reason I would always encourage anyone to kite train an eyass would be foremost so the Falconer can witness the full flying potential the bird has flying to the kite ie. strength in wing beat, climbing ability and so on....
Taking all things being equal and the kite training is done profiently my assumptions are based on these guys mentioned below;
N.Currys Tiercels Zulu, Stump. M.Calvins Hal,Tye. J.Armstrongs Falcon Regal. S.Highams Tiercel Freddy. Lee Coopers Tiercel Syd
K. Wilkie Tierecel Malacker (you know the driving instructor down Woodhall with the tiercel that scorched the skys)M. Gages Tiercel Bertie etc
Chris Southerns Falcon Coco and My two Ike the Tiercel and Ginty to name but a few Dave.
to be continued
All the best
Phil:goodman:

[Tezz]

Ah but Dave some of those birds that failed trained by traditional methods, had they been trained by the kite method maybe they would have made the grade in the field. Like I say you have more to work with, when a Falcon or Tiercel is fit before you introduce it Game. Maybe that why our ancestors always hanker or preffered to fly Haggards or Passage because of their fitness levels and disreggarded taking on a young eyass and go about the laborious tradional training methods to get it fit????
The reason I would always encourage anyone to kite train an eyass would be foremost so the Falconer can witness the full flying potential the bird has flying to the kite ie. strength in wing beat, climbing ability and so on....
Taking all things being equal and the kite training is done profiently my assumptions are based on these guys mentioned below;
N.Currys Tiercels Zulu, Stump. M.Calvins Hal,Tye. J.Armstrongs Falcon Regal. S.Highams Tiercel Freddy. Lee Coopers Tiercel Syd
K. Wilkie Tierecel Malacker (you know the driving instructor down Woodhall with the tiercel that scorched the skys)M. Gages Tiercel Bertie etc
Chris Southerns Falcon Coco and My two Ike the Tiercel and Ginty to name but a few Dave.
to be continued
All the best
Phil:goodman:

Phil
It seems the traditionalist are struggling to defend their corner:lol: you could
have at least mentioned one or maybe two traditional trained falcons, or is their none that have flown to the standard of the ones you have named?

Kite rules:supz:

Tez

[Dean]

:lol::lol:
Phil
It seems the traditionalist are struggling to defend their corner:lol: you could
have at least mentioned one or maybe two traditional trained falcons, or is their none that have flown to the standard of the ones you have named?

Kite rules:supz:

Tez
All these falcons are well known great falcons,what about the un-well known great falcons!!!What about the falconers that dont frequent field meets,who dont write up in the BFC columns!!!Cassie,Flymo,Midge would all be great traditionally trained falcons on a good day!!!How about mentioning the **** kite trained falcons,I can name a few!!!Traditionists use the kite for two reasons,they enjoy the play or they fail!!!!!Oh,sorry,they may fly imprints!!!!Tezz,you got something to live up to this season!!

[Tezz]

All these falcons are well known great falcons,what about the un-well known great falcons!!!What about the falconers that dont frequent field meets,who dont write up in the BFC columns!!!Cassie,Flymo,Midge would all be great traditionally trained falcons on a good day!!!How about mentioning the **** kite trained falcons,I can name a few!!!Traditionists use the kite for two reasons,they enjoy the play or they fail!!!!!Oh,sorry,they may fly imprints!!!!Tezz,you got something to live up to this season!!

Dean
I don't believe I have anything to live up to or prove this season as I have
stated I am just a "novice". I 100% agree with Phil and Nicks comments
unless yourself, Dave, or Sam can convince me otherwise. I trained my
Perlin last year "traditional method" and had success for what I wanted,
this being height and position. I now am going to use the kite for my tiercel
Pere because I know, having experience with the kite years ago I will reach
the height and fitness that I want much sooner than I would doing it the traditional way and therfore allowing me to go hunting sooner and kill lots and lots of game if that's what gamehawking is about, not for me it isn't.

Tez

[SmallPeregrine]

All these falcons are well known great falcons,what about the un-well known great falcons!!!What about the falconers that dont frequent field meets,who dont write up in the BFC columns!!!Cassie,Flymo,Midge would all be great traditionally trained falcons on a good day!!!How about mentioning the **** kite trained falcons,I can name a few!!!Traditionists use the kite for two reasons,they enjoy the play or they fail!!!!!Oh,sorry,they may fly imprints!!!!Tezz,you got something to live up to this season!!

Dear Dean
I name you the great present day Traditionally trained birds I have seen Glyn Coopers Female & Tiercel Peregrine 'Dangerous Dave & Milly, D.Goffs Tiercel Mike, Sam Rice female Shadow, John Coburns Tiercel Horus now I am struggling but am sure there is loads more out there. But again look at the ratio to how many are kiting and how many are traditionally trained, its about 8 to 1 in favour of traditional training.
Phil

[Tezz]

Dear Dean
I name you the great present day Traditionally trained birds I have seen Glyn Coopers Female & Tiercel Peregrine 'Dangerous Dave & Milly, D.Goffs Tiercel Mike, Sam Rice female Shadow, John Coburns Tiercel Horus now I am struggling but am sure there is loads more out there. But again look at the ratio to how many are kiting and how many are traditionally trained, its about 8 to 1 in favour of traditional training.
Phil

Are you saying that these birds graced the sky liked the kite trained ones
you have mentioned? honest answer please. I know they was or still are successful gamehawks.

Tez

[SmallPeregrine]

Are you saying that these birds graced the sky liked the kite trained ones
you have mentioned? honest answer please. I know they was or still are successful gamehawks.

Tez

If I were to compare any of the above mentioned birds that flys like or similar to a kite trained Falcon it would be Glyn Coopers Female 'Milly. That Falcon takes up the sky and commands kite pitches.
Not taking anything away from the mssrs Goff, Rice etc Birds they all fly bang on too.
But Milly sticks out in my mind.
All the ones mentioned in my previous posts are still flying to my knowledge Tezz
Cheers
Phil

[Judd Casper]

Dear Dean
I name you the great present day Traditionally trained birds I have seen Glyn Coopers Female & Tiercel Peregrine 'Dangerous Dave & Milly, D.Goffs Tiercel Mike, Sam Rice female Shadow, John Coburns Tiercel Horus now I am struggling but am sure there is loads more out there. But again look at the ratio to how many are kiting and how many are traditionally trained, its about 8 to 1 in favour of traditional training.
PhilMissed quite a few out there phil and all the above and more are present day hawks unlike the kited ones, shall we start Hal gone tye gone George gone Zulu gone Freddie gone can't remeber the name of Si's other tiercel thats gone his hybrid from last year gone or on the transfer list for bad behaviour
Sea bass gone stump gone Bella gone two other kite trained warren earp tiercels that Nick trained gone don't know about Lee whether he still has the same tiercel or not the list is endless i could go on and on......in the field longevity doesn't seem to be the name of the game for the kite trained hawks and you seen my two fly pretty high last year Phil as high as any kite trained falcon what do you think?


Sam

[Pure Blood]

Sorry Phil
Do it all the time with the wife:lol:

Tezz

you call jo dave ? WOTS GOIN ON HERE PMSFL ? keep off the steller mate ill come round and drink the lot , that will save you a few :box: off jo , see im a good mate :goodman: keep it cold 4 me :drinkers:

[SmallPeregrine]

Missed quite a few out there phil and all the above and more are present day hawks unlike the kited ones, shall we start Hal gone tye gone George gone Zulu gone Freddie gone can't remeber the name of Si's other tiercel thats gone his hybrid from last year gone or on the transfer list for bad behaviour
Sea bass gone stump gone Bella gone two other kite trained warren earp tiercels that Nick trained gone don't know about Lee whether he still has the same tiercel or not the list is endless i could go on and on......in the field longevity doesn't seem to be the name of the game for the kite trained hawks and you seen my two fly pretty high last year Phil as high as any kite trained falcon what do you think?


Sam
Sam
Read them posts properly, Tezz said which traditional trained bird fly more like a kite bird and in my mind is Glyns bird 'Milly. I also added that your and Daves fly exceptionally well too but not in the mannerism of attaining there pitch like a kite trained one and Milly does.
The other point was which of all the kite trained birds were the best and thats where Mssrs Calvin, Curry and Highams etc come into the equastion.
Reason being the kite birds dont last that long is because they pitch higher and on a more consistant basis and as you with big pitches come inherent dangers of collisions with wires, fences etc when these falcons come out of there stoops with high speed.
I never said there was anything wrong with Lexy and Shadow they way they fly and are a great credit to your Falconry skills.
Calm down 'Uncle Fester' thee are getting too defensive.:goodman:
All the best
Phil

[Pure Blood]

this is the tune 4 this thread enjoy lol wot do you lot think ? YouTube - Oasis - Wonderwall :supz:

[Tezz]

you call jo dave ? WOTS GOIN ON HERE PMSFL ? keep off the steller mate ill come round and drink the lot , that will save you a few off jo , see im a good mate : keep it cold 4 me


:lol::lol:: Siv you should have been comedian.

Tez

[Judd Casper]

Sam
Read them posts properly, Tezz said which traditional trained bird fly more like a kite bird and in my mind is Glyns bird 'Milly. I also added that your and Daves fly exceptionally well too but not in the mannerism of attaining there pitch like a kite trained one and Milly does.
The other point was which of all the kite trained birds were the best and thats where Mssrs Calvin, Curry and Highams etc come into the equastion.
Reason being the kite birds dont last that long is because they pitch higher and on a more consistant basis and as you with big pitches come inherent dangers of collisions with wires, fences etc when these falcons come out of there stoops with high speed.
I never said there was anything wrong with Lexy and Shadow they way they fly and are a great credit to your Falconry skills.
Calm down 'Uncle Fester' thee are getting too defensive.:goodman:
All the best
PhilPhil i put this post on about a spit second after you....but what you have wrote now just cracks me up,Hal checked and was shot, Zula hit a fence after a teal and never went to massive pitches like Hal and Freddie died at the vets coming out from an op on bubble foot so how does the above you wrote aquate..what a load of twaddle.


Sam

[Dean]

Ok,kite flyers,what equates a big pitch for your falcons,or what do you expect it to be!!!How long do you want your falcons on the wing before the flush????How many of you have produced several falcons of the same quality,season after season??How much quicker is it to enter your falcons compared to traditional birds???I also guarentee that I can train a falcon to wait on as high and as long as any kite trained falcon,albeit with a closer outrun!!!

[Pure Blood]

dean and tezz ill pick tezz up 2 see the pere fly monday then next day ill pick you up dean with out the kite lol check this mates lol YouTube - Born 2 B Wild :lol:

[Ginty]

My friend used to tie chick legs up the kite line for a perlin, it worked well for a falconry display.



Don't burn the kite and don't start tossing pigeons. The reason he is at a loss is because he don't really know what he is doing. The falcon goes up to the lure, which is her incentive to fly. Without it, she is not so inspired. What I like to do is toss the lure back into my hawking bag and start attaching tidbits on little drop lines up the kite main line. You can use 5 or 6 of them about 25 to 50 feet apart. As she goes up to get the tidbits she will pluck them one at a time until she has taken them all. Once she has taken them all, she will go right back to see if there are more. It is at this time that you might consider tossing the pigeon or whatever large bird you have. She will commit into a stoop and this is what you want. Do this a few times and she will mount in expectation of the flush. She will mount without the kite. It takes a plan to make it work. You have to know where you are going once she is mounting for the lure. That is why I do it the way I do.

Jack

[Pure Blood]

My friend used to tie chick legs up the kite line for a perlin, it worked well for a falconry display.

i tied a chick up one time at band camp it woz great A- PIE PMSFL

[Ginty]

Kites are great fun ! kids love them ! :D



i tied a chick up one time at band camp it woz great A- PIE PMSFL

[Pure Blood]

I WONT A KITE wot r the best kite 2 start off with and the ££££ plz thanx infront ppl

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

Missed quite a few out there phil and all the above and more are present day hawks unlike the kited ones, shall we start Hal gone tye gone George gone Zulu gone Freddie gone can't remeber the name of Si's other tiercel thats gone his hybrid from last year gone or on the transfer list for bad behaviour
Sea bass gone stump gone Bella gone two other kite trained warren earp tiercels that Nick trained gone don't know about Lee whether he still has the same tiercel or not the list is endless i could go on and on......in the field longevity doesn't seem to be the name of the game for the kite trained hawks and you seen my two fly pretty high last year Phil as high as any kite trained falcon what do you think?


Sam

So are you saying Hal was shot because he was kite trained or Zulu hit a fence because he was kited, or that Stump hit a wire bacause he was kite trained. Did Freddy not come round in the operating room because he was kited.
Your logic is interesting...please explain.
Incidentally Bella, is still on the go, but if the eagles hear she was kite trained, they'll be after her too :rolleyes:

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

Ok,kite flyers,what equates a big pitch for your falcons,or what do you expect it to be!!!How long do you want your falcons on the wing before the flush????How many of you have produced several falcons of the same quality,season after season??How much quicker is it to enter your falcons compared to traditional birds???I also guarentee that I can train a falcon to wait on as high and as long as any kite trained falcon,albeit with a closer outrun!!!

Dean,

Traditional methods make great hawks. I don't think many kite flyers will argue any different. Its just that the kite is a viable alternative method that suits some people.
If I had more ponds early season Id be out there with a tiercel (or falcon) just going at it, but it just suits me more at the moment to get some condition in the bird with the kite, get some pitch to work with, and then get into proper hawking with like anyone else. My duckhawking hots up once the rains come in October onwards. Mind you I think its back to the good old days this year as we've got floods now :lol:
The kite is a few weeks of toil and delayed entering that are a good investment in the career of the hawk.
If nothing else I think its worth doing to get the hawk back in shape after the moult.
I don't agree with the long outrun thing. The good kite trained birds that Ive seen have mounted as close as anything else.

Nick

[Dean]

Dean,

Traditional methods make great hawks. I don't think many kite flyers will argue any different. Its just that the kite is a viable alternative method that suits some people.
If I had more ponds early season Id be out there with a tiercel (or falcon) just going at it, but it just suits me more at the moment to get some condition in the bird with the kite, get some pitch to work with, and then get into proper hawking with like anyone else. My duckhawking hots up once the rains come in October onwards. Mind you I think its back to the good old days this year as we've got floods now :lol:
The kite is a few weeks of toil and delayed entering that are a good investment in the career of the hawk.
If nothing else I think its worth doing to get the hawk back in shape after the moult.
I don't agree with the long outrun thing. The good kite trained birds that Ive seen have mounted as close as anything else.

Nick
Nick,It all boils down in the long run to the falconer,how he delivers his falcons training!People can **** up traditionally and with kite,the falcon usually tells you if she disagrees with your technique!

[CloudBase1664]

Ah but Dave some of those birds that failed trained by traditional methods, had they been trained by the kite method maybe they would have made the grade in the field. Like I say you have more to work with, when a Falcon or Tiercel is fit before you introduce it Game. Maybe that why our ancestors always hanker or preffered to fly Haggards or Passage because of their fitness levels and disreggarded taking on a young eyass and go about the laborious tradional training methods to get it fit????

Phil
This fitness thing is a red herring .To train a hawk using traditional methods a hawk does not need to be fit, in fact it can be a disadvantage if it is fit.

Dave

[Dean]

Phil
This fitness thing is a red herring .To train a hawk using traditional methods a hawk does not need to be fit, in fact it can be a disadvantage if it is fit.

Dave
When I once said this everyone thought i,d gone crazy!!!There are certain levels of fitness one can go beyond regarding gamehawking!Also is kite training effective without bananas,if so,how the hell is check controlled??

[Eagle Owl]

Please remember that this is an International forum, so if you use baggies, etc. make sure it is legal where you live!!!!

[RyanSinTX]

Nothing like a hijacked thread, the guy just asked for some advice about kite training. Not about what method is better. Falconry training methods are like opinions and @ holes: Everybody has one.

I have kite trained several birds and like any method if done right you will have a focused high flying bird that knows how to stoop. I think several people have made some good suggestions here and its all about sorting the seed from the chaff so to speak.

I’m no animal behavior expert, but you just need to break it down into its simplest form (by the way Steve Layman is great about explaining how to shape animal behavior). I think Jack is right about the bird not knowing what behavior is expected of it.

I don’t have a loft of homers so kite training is a fast and effective process for me. Plus if it comes down to cleaning up pigeon **** vs. flying a kite I choose the kite every time.
Kite training is really a two part process. Part One is providing motivation for the falcon to take a pitch, and part Two is providing the falcon with a motivation to stoop. Once you get deeper into the training they learn that if they go up to the desired pitch out comes the reward and stoop to get it.

From the limited information it sounds like the transition from going up to a lure too stooping bagged game or pigeons didn’t go well. Again when things go right I use just a small leather lure with no food attached as the bait. This draws the falcon up to the desired height (part 1) and with no food up there it much easier to get his attention back on the ground for the flush (part 2 motivation to come back down). After a few lessons the lure is no longer needed. You continue just using the kite for a few more lessons. The bird at this point knows it goes up it gets to stoop to its reward. Depending on the bird it only takes a few lessons, and your hunting game with no kite. I trained my very first longwing (hen Anatum/Peals) to the kite with no experience or much guidance. After about 12 training sessions she almost caught the first duck she saw on the first flight with out the kite from about 750-800ft.

Now there are always exceptions to the rule and the transitions to no lure and then to no kite can be tricky. I personally haven’t had a problem with any peregrine doing this, but some of the smarter hybrids on the other hand can test you.
The main thing is to just form a training plan or routine and stick with it, and making adjustments when necessary. No need to add more confusion to an already confused bird by switching methods when only a few positive lessons are necessary.

Oh by the way something I didn’t see mentioned here is that the kite makes a great lure for an errant bird. If you falcon is sitting on a pole some 2 miles off you can swing a lure until your blue in the face and it will never see it. Now put up the kite 2000ft with a nice hunk of quail on it and your bird is no longer spending its first nigh out as owl bait.

Best of luck to your mate… let us know how he comes along.

[Dean]

Nothing like a hijacked thread, the guy just asked for some advice about kite training. Not about what method is better. Falconry training methods are like opinions and @ holes: Everybody has one.

I have kite trained several birds and like any method if done right you will have a focused high flying bird that knows how to stoop. I think several people have made some good suggestions here and its all about sorting the seed from the chaff so to speak.

I’m no animal behavior expert, but you just need to break it down into its simplest form (by the way Steve Layman is great about explaining how to shape animal behavior). I think Jack is right about the bird not knowing what behavior is expected of it.

I don’t have a loft of homers so kite training is a fast and effective process for me. Plus if it comes down to cleaning up pigeon **** vs. flying a kite I choose the kite every time.
Kite training is really a two part process. Part One is providing motivation for the falcon to take a pitch, and part Two is providing the falcon with a motivation to stoop. Once you get deeper into the training they learn that if they go up to the desired pitch out comes the reward and stoop to get it.

From the limited information it sounds like the transition from going up to a lure too stooping bagged game or pigeons didn’t go well. Again when things go right I use just a small leather lure with no food attached as the bait. This draws the falcon up to the desired height (part 1) and with no food up there it much easier to get his attention back on the ground for the flush (part 2 motivation to come back down). After a few lessons the lure is no longer needed. You continue just using the kite for a few more lessons. The bird at this point knows it goes up it gets to stoop to its reward. Depending on the bird it only takes a few lessons, and your hunting game with no kite. I trained my very first longwing (hen Anatum/Peals) to the kite with no experience or much guidance. After about 12 training sessions she almost caught the first duck she saw on the first flight with out the kite from about 750-800ft.

Now there are always exceptions to the rule and the transitions to no lure and then to no kite can be tricky. I personally haven’t had a problem with any peregrine doing this, but some of the smarter hybrids on the other hand can test you.
The main thing is to just form a training plan or routine and stick with it, and making adjustments when necessary. No need to add more confusion to an already confused bird by switching methods when only a few positive lessons are necessary.

Oh by the way something I didn’t see mentioned here is that the kite makes a great lure for an errant bird. If you falcon is sitting on a pole some 2 miles off you can swing a lure until your blue in the face and it will never see it. Now put up the kite 2000ft with a nice hunk of quail on it and your bird is no longer spending its first nigh out as owl bait.

Best of luck to your mate… let us know how he comes along.
Do you use baggies to always return your bird after a false point etc....?

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

Nothing like a hijacked thread, the guy just asked for some advice about kite training. Not about what method is better. Falconry training methods are like opinions and @ holes: Everybody has one.

I have kite trained several birds and like any method if done right you will have a focused high flying bird that knows how to stoop. I think several people have made some good suggestions here and its all about sorting the seed from the chaff so to speak.

I’m no animal behavior expert, but you just need to break it down into its simplest form (by the way Steve Layman is great about explaining how to shape animal behavior). I think Jack is right about the bird not knowing what behavior is expected of it.

I don’t have a loft of homers so kite training is a fast and effective process for me. Plus if it comes down to cleaning up pigeon **** vs. flying a kite I choose the kite every time.
Kite training is really a two part process. Part One is providing motivation for the falcon to take a pitch, and part Two is providing the falcon with a motivation to stoop. Once you get deeper into the training they learn that if they go up to the desired pitch out comes the reward and stoop to get it.

From the limited information it sounds like the transition from going up to a lure too stooping bagged game or pigeons didn’t go well. Again when things go right I use just a small leather lure with no food attached as the bait. This draws the falcon up to the desired height (part 1) and with no food up there it much easier to get his attention back on the ground for the flush (part 2 motivation to come back down). After a few lessons the lure is no longer needed. You continue just using the kite for a few more lessons. The bird at this point knows it goes up it gets to stoop to its reward. Depending on the bird it only takes a few lessons, and your hunting game with no kite. I trained my very first longwing (hen Anatum/Peals) to the kite with no experience or much guidance. After about 12 training sessions she almost caught the first duck she saw on the first flight with out the kite from about 750-800ft.

Now there are always exceptions to the rule and the transitions to no lure and then to no kite can be tricky. I personally haven’t had a problem with any peregrine doing this, but some of the smarter hybrids on the other hand can test you.
The main thing is to just form a training plan or routine and stick with it, and making adjustments when necessary. No need to add more confusion to an already confused bird by switching methods when only a few positive lessons are necessary.

Oh by the way something I didn’t see mentioned here is that the kite makes a great lure for an errant bird. If you falcon is sitting on a pole some 2 miles off you can swing a lure until your blue in the face and it will never see it. Now put up the kite 2000ft with a nice hunk of quail on it and your bird is no longer spending its first nigh out as owl bait.

Best of luck to your mate… let us know how he comes along.

Good post

[Ginty]

Forget all the mumbo jumbo methods.:rolleyes:

Make weight adjustments and start hunting with the bird and it should go up, you know it has the capability to go high, now it just needs to find another reason to go up other than to a suspended lure.

60 meters is a very good starting pitch.




hi guys, this is my first post here.. im a falconer from south africa. and one of my mates is having problems with his female african peregrine and the kite.. the bird goes up really nicely to a thousand feet with no hassils but when there is no lure up there, the bird doesn't want to know anything about it.. and when the kite isn't around, then the bird always sits on the floor and poles and anything.. he's not sure what to do to correct the bird.. any suggestions? we have even tried throwing pigeons that the bird will get everytime its pitch increases, but he never really goes higher than 60 meters off the ground, and if he leaves her up too long, then down she comes to sit!!

Nick

[Dean]

Forget all the mumbo jumbo methods.:rolleyes:

Make weight adjustments and start hunting with the bird and it should go up, you know it has the capability to go high, now it just needs to find another reason to go up other than to a suspended lure.

60 meters is a very good starting pitch.
Falcons dont just go up mate,they have to be taught why???This is done by timing of your serve!!Cast a falcon off for the first time and if you dont have a reactor and perfect timing,she,s gonna land!!!Once a day for 20 days or so and she should be ready for her first flight at game,180 ft is ideal for starters,maybe too good,she may kill!!:-x

[Dean]

Hey Tezz,I hear Sivo,s joined the A team,hes gonna get himself a kite to train his tiercel,asked me where your land is!!! I just had to tell him!!:twisted:

[RyanSinTX]

Forget all the mumbo jumbo methods.

Make weight adjustments and start hunting with the bird and it should go up, you know it has the capability to go high, now it just needs to find another reason to go up other than to a suspended lure.

60 meters is a very good starting pitch.
[/quote]


With only ten years of falconry under my belt I conceder my self a rookie at best. I try not to be too judgmental of other falconers or their methods. It’s all about learning new things and applying what works. I do have to say though if I could only get a falcon up to 180 ft in 20 days, Id give the bird away and quit the sport (Unless it was a kestrel flown at starling or some other small bird).

I kite trained a Gyr/Barb female last season for a guy and in about 15 days of actual flight time she was waiting on 1800-2000ft. I guess it just boils down to what I call the “Relativity of Success”. When you add up all the variables like type of bird, intended quarry, flight style, hunting terrain, and climate as falconers we all have different definitions of success. Some guys think it’s a full game bag, and others think just bringing their bird home at the end of the day is a success.

From my personal experience and what I have seen of other birds is they learn fast about expending energy to capture prey. I live in TX so my main quarry is ducks. They are relatively easy to catch compared to most other falcon quarry in the US. A falcon learns quickly that it doesn’t have to be high to catch ducks. So from my perspective I couldn’t just cut a bird’s weigh and start flying ducks. It would never take a pitch over 200ft, and to me that’s not being successful (not for a female Pery anyway).

I think Ed Pitcher said it best “I would rather catch 5 head from 5000ft then 500 head from 50ft” (or something to that effect).

But hey if you are enjoying the sport and keeping the birds in good health and even catching wild quarry …. Then who am I to judge.

Its all Relative mate!

[Jonathan526]

Very well put Ryan, your persuasive and well stated posts are still probably not enough for the antiquated thinkers. Don't take it personally, as they say "you can lead a horse........" I'm almost tempted to invite nay sayers of the kite to fly with me, but only after they've seen my tiercel diligently take his 1,500ft+ pitch. If they still think they have something special or the gusto to pull their birds out of the truck, I'd give them a slip. In all honesty, the people who have seen the effectiveness of the kite should keep it to themselves because non-kited bird's lackluster performance only makes you look better. Secrectly I find it comical when my friends' birds wander or only get up 300 ft. Call me sadistic but, I like to watch people struggle because of their close-minded ways.

[Tezz]

Hey Tezz,I hear Sivo,s joined the A team,hes gonna get himself a kite to train his tiercel,asked me where your land is!!! I just had to tell him!!:twisted:

That's alright mate, am nearly at the end of my training on that field.
I need to move onto my hunting ground now and start serving him
NOT BAGGIES:lol: just the lure.
Hows your tiercel doing is it flying yet? sorry will refrase forgot you only had it last week,
how's his progress?

Tez

[CloudBase1664]

Maybe that why our ancestors always hanker or preffered to fly Haggards or Passage because of their fitness levels and disreggarded taking on a young eyass and go about the laborious tradional training methods to get it fit????All the best
Phil:goodman:[/QUOTE]

Phil
A swing and a miss I reckon:lol:I think you'l find passage and haggards were taken and trained mainly for flights out of the hood you know -chasing stuff!
When waiting on flights or the Scottish style became popular the serious falconers Blaine et al preferred to take eyases .

Dave

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

Maybe that why our ancestors always hanker or preffered to fly Haggards or Passage because of their fitness levels and disreggarded taking on a young eyass and go about the laborious tradional training methods to get it fit????All the best
Phil:goodman:

Phil
A swing and a miss I reckon:lol:I think you'l find passage and haggards were taken and trained mainly for flights out of the hood you know -chasing stuff!
When waiting on flights or the Scottish style became popular the serious falconers Blaine et al preferred to take eyases .

Dave[/QUOTE]

Dave,
Geoff Pollard was credited with very high standards and always preferred passagers as did many others.
I don't think many people would turn down a passager, at least not for the grouse.
A passage tiercel on grouse, or a female on ducks, what more could you want :)
But thats another debate!
Nick

[SmallPeregrine]

Missed quite a few out there phil and all the above and more are present day hawks unlike the kited ones, shall we start Hal gone tye gone George gone Zulu gone Freddie gone can't remeber the name of Si's other tiercel thats gone his hybrid from last year gone or on the transfer list for bad behaviour
Sea bass gone stump gone Bella gone two other kite trained warren earp tiercels that Nick trained gone don't know about Lee whether he still has the same tiercel or not the list is endless i could go on and on......in the field longevity doesn't seem to be the name of the game for the kite trained hawks and you seen my two fly pretty high last year Phil as high as any kite trained falcon what do you think?


Sam
And what that got to do with price of bread.
So now what your saying dont kite 'cause it kills your bird???
Your running out of excuses 'Uncle Fester concerning kite training
Phil:)

[SmallPeregrine]

Forget all the mumbo jumbo methods.:rolleyes:

Make weight adjustments and start hunting with the bird and it should go up, you know it has the capability to go high, now it just needs to find another reason to go up other than to a suspended lure.

60 meters is a very good starting pitch.
So your the expert...
'famous saying 'tailgate drops bullshit stops'
And sign your posts
Phil

[SmallPeregrine]

Phil i put this post on about a spit second after you....but what you have wrote now just cracks me up,Hal checked and was shot, Zula hit a fence after a teal and never went to massive pitches like Hal and Freddie died at the vets coming out from an op on bubble foot so how does the above you wrote aquate..what a load of twaddle.


Sam
Wot and Lexy and Shadow havn't checked ever????
again wots that got do with the price of bread ie. meaning kiting
Keep digging 'Uncle Fester'
Phil

[SmallPeregrine]

Ok,kite flyers,what equates a big pitch for your falcons,or what do you expect it to be!!!How long do you want your falcons on the wing before the flush????How many of you have produced several falcons of the same quality,season after season??How much quicker is it to enter your falcons compared to traditional birds???I also guarentee that I can train a falcon to wait on as high and as long as any kite trained falcon,albeit with a closer outrun!!!
Dean
Best orchestra in the world can be made to sound bad by the conducter!
Same applies to Falcon and as you know all falcons are different?
All I know I can get better consistant performances out of a kite bird than a traditional bird and pitch?? no question sky the limit...
Anyway this was a thread to help a guy from Africa am not getting into an **** kicking competition with you mate, I have got nothing to prove to anyone on here.
Am here to help the likes of Tezz who is open minded to kiting techniques and wots best for his bird.
Cheers
Phil

[Little Joe]

Very interesting thread! Pity about the boxing...:box:

Guys, kites work! But you can also get a bird to pitch without it. In both cases its important to know what you doing - exactly - at each step of the training.

For my fellow Saffer, you can contact a guy in the Freestate, Francios Breedt. If he has the time, he can tell you the ins and outs of kite training. The man has proven that it gets birds flying incredibly high and continue to do so once the kite is gone.

If you dont want to go the kite route (I'd be careful with tossing too many pigeons - it will cause problems with the bird coming to the lure later on and it will also encourage the bird to chase after check) get yourself a copy of Ray Turner's Gamehawk: Field and Moor. He explains how the traditional method works. (Kites are a new thing after all and the old masters had birds skying out without the help of modern gadgets)

Having said all that, it sounds like it might be too late for this particular the bird as she has picked up bad habits, as someone earlier commented.

Anyway, good luck and keep smiling! :D

[Dean]

I suppose all Im trying to say really is,a gamehawk,is a gamehawk,is a gamehawk!Reletavely easy to train and there is no reason to kite!!Would kite fanatics agree with that?

[Tezz]

I suppose all Im trying to say really is,a gamehawk,is a gamehawk,is a gamehawk!Reletavely easy to train and there is no reason to kite!!Would kite fanatics agree with that?

Dean
As you know I have been on many longwing meets including woodhall spa to know what direction I intend to go. From the falcons I have seen fly,
the better bird in my opinion has always been the kite trained birds.
A gamehawk as you say is relatively easy to train it all depends on what you want from it, as Phil has said I am open minded I believe in going forward trying new techniques. To me it's not a competition I am only out to please
myself.

Tez

[SmallPeregrine]

I suppose all Im trying to say really is,a gamehawk,is a gamehawk,is a gamehawk!Reletavely easy to train and there is no reason to kite!!Would kite fanatics agree with that?
Dean
Theres very reason to kite in my eyes, number one reason in my eyes is creating a higher metabolic rate in the Falcons make up from a very early age that stays with the Falcon for the rest of its life, i.e Higher the metabolism, the quicker recovery in injury, faster moults and maintaining high levels of fitness when moulting etc.
Like I say thats why our Falconry Ancestors preferred Passage, haggards over the eyass Falcons and even when they did pick an eyass they hacked it before the intial training began to improve its Fitness levels.
Anyway Dean you got your methods I have mine, obviously we get the results in our birds performences. I was replying to a guy in Africa about Kiting problems he is experiencing with his Peregrine. You made it plain to see on here the Kite training is a pointless training apperatus in your eyes which is your prerogative.
Please dont preach to me am doing it wrong, plenty people have seen my Falcons fly on numerous times up and down the country over the years and I get plenty compliments on how good me Falcons fly, so obviously am not doing to much wrong in conditioning my Falcons to fly. I havn't come on here to critersize you on your training methods.
Cheers
Phil

[CloudBase1664]

Dean
As you know I have been on many longwing meets including woodhall spa to know what direction I intend to go. From the falcons I have seen fly,
the better bird in my opinion has always been the kite trained birds.
A gamehawk as you say is relatively easy to train it all depends on what you want from it, as Phil has said I am open minded I believe in going forward trying new techniques. To me it's not a competition I am only out to please
myself.

Tez

Good post Tez. Sums up the way we all should think whatever we fly and however we train it.

Dave

[SmallPeregrine]

Very well put Ryan, your persuasive and well stated posts are still probably not enough for the antiquated thinkers. Don't take it personally, as they say "you can lead a horse........" I'm almost tempted to invite nay sayers of the kite to fly with me, but only after they've seen my tiercel diligently take his 1,500ft+ pitch. If they still think they have something special or the gusto to pull their birds out of the truck, I'd give them a slip. In all honesty, the people who have seen the effectiveness of the kite should keep it to themselves because non-kited bird's lackluster performance only makes you look better. Secrectly I find it comical when my friends' birds wander or only get up 300 ft. Call me sadistic but, I like to watch people struggle because of their close-minded ways.

Jonathon your bang on with your post mate and you helped me out a load with the Kite citics on here as I said earlier 'When the Tailgate drops the Bullshit stops'
All the Best
Phil

[RyanSinTX]

Do you use baggies to always return your bird after a false point etc....?

I really shouldn’t even justify this question with a response, but since it’s an international forum and clearly many people don’t have an accurate perception how bagged quarry is used in the states so I will humor you.

The only time I ever use bagged quarry (in my case pigeons… not exactly quarry in my mind) is during the kite training process. I maybe toss around 8-10 pigeons total! Only 3-4 of witch are sealed so the falcon catches them.

So let me state again I’m not here to judge anyone’s methods and hell yes thousands of birds have been trained with out kites. All I’m saying is if things go well in 12-15 flights to the kite and 10 pigeons max I can get a bird waiting on 1800-2000ft, and I highly doubt any non kite training methods can get the same results in that amount of time with that number of pigeons period!!

Hell according to some people here in 20 days a pitch of 180ft is a good start (that statement still makes me laugh a little bit … in a non judgmental way of course).

In the 3 seasons I have flown her she has only checked three times that I even recall once at a pigeon in here first year, and twice last season. One was a pheasant when I was hunting P chickens, and the third was on a dove cause I couldn’t get the ducks off a big tank and she got frustrated with me (and I actually flushed the dove for her and yelled ho ho ho so technically it wasn’t even a check). However it was not the intended quarry the flight started on so I counted it. Also one of the places I fly is next to a large grain elevator where there are hundreds of pigeons flying about and she regularly uses it to slope soar off of with out ever checking (the one she did stoop on was in a different spot).

My point here is Kite training done the right way can produce a very fit high flying bird that doesn’t check on every pigeon is sees, and where I fly there are a sh!t load of pigeons. So for me the traditional method of tossing pigeon after pigeon isn’t the brightest idea. Of course the method works … hell Id be stupid to say it didn’t, but for my situation it seems impractical and inefficient.

So to answer you question NO I don’t use bagged game or a live lure to call my bird back after a missed flight. The way I lure train gives me very good response, in fact the response is so good she very willingly steps off her kills to an UN-garnished lure.

I think this thread needs to be moved to the My Cock is bigger then yours section…….Greg Hhhhhhhhhhhelp.

[Dean]

Dean
Theres very reason to kite in my eyes, number one reason in my eyes is creating a higher metabolic rate in the Falcons make up from a very early age that stays with the Falcon for the rest of its life, i.e Higher the metabolism, the quicker recovery in injury, faster moults and maintaining high levels of fitness when moulting etc.
Like I say thats why our Falconry Ancestors preferred Passage, haggards over the eyass Falcons and even when they did pick an eyass they hacked it before the intial training began to improve its Fitness levels.
Anyway Dean you got your methods I have mine, obviously we get the results in our birds performences. I was replying to a guy in Africa about Kiting problems he is experiencing with his Peregrine. You made it plain to see on here the Kite training is a pointless training apperatus in your eyes which is your prerogative.
Please dont preach to me am doing it wrong, plenty people have seen my Falcons fly on numerous times up and down the country over the years and I get plenty compliments on how good me Falcons fly, so obviously am not doing to much wrong in conditioning my Falcons to fly. I havn't come on here to critersize you on your training methods.
Cheers
Phil
Phil,How can I criticise your training methods,but all we have heard is that kited falcons make better falcons?I have witnessed different,thats all!I was talking to a very,very distinguished grouse hawker three weeks ago,as a matter of fact there is no better,never has been!He has never ever used a kite,but never ruled it out!"The day my birds suffer in anyway with my training methods is the day I will attempt a kite",If my birds lacked lustre in anyway or form,winter grouse will tell me!!!

[Dean]

I really shouldn’t even justify this question with a response, but since it’s an international forum and clearly many people don’t have an accurate perception how bagged quarry is used in the states so I will humor you.

The only time I ever use bagged quarry (in my case pigeons… not exactly quarry in my mind) is during the kite training process. I maybe toss around 8-10 pigeons total! Only 3-4 of witch are sealed so the falcon catches them.

So let me state again I’m not here to judge anyone’s methods and hell yes thousands of birds have been trained with out kites. All I’m saying is if things go well in 12-15 flights to the kite and 10 pigeons max I can get a bird waiting on 1800-2000ft, and I highly doubt any non kite training methods can get the same results in that amount of time with that number of pigeons period!!

Hell according to some people here in 20 days a pitch of 180ft is a good start (that statement still makes me laugh a little bit … in a non judgmental way of course).

In the 3 seasons I have flown her she has only checked three times that I even recall once at a pigeon in here first year, and twice last season. One was a pheasant when I was hunting P chickens, and the third was on a dove cause I couldn’t get the ducks off a big tank and she got frustrated with me (and I actually flushed the dove for her and yelled ho ho ho so technically it wasn’t even a check). However it was not the intended quarry the flight started on so I counted it. Also one of the places I fly is next to a large grain elevator where there are hundreds of pigeons flying about and she regularly uses it to slope soar off of with out ever checking (the one she did stoop on was in a different spot).

My point here is Kite training done the right way can produce a very fit high flying bird that doesn’t check on every pigeon is sees, and where I fly there are a sh!t load of pigeons. So for me the traditional method of tossing pigeon after pigeon isn’t the brightest idea. Of course the method works … hell Id be stupid to say it didn’t, but for my situation it seems impractical and inefficient.

So to answer you question NO I don’t use bagged game or a live lure to call my bird back after a missed flight. The way I lure train gives me very good response, in fact the response is so good she very willingly steps off her kills to an UN-garnished lure.

I think this thread needs to be moved to the My Cock is bigger then yours section…….Greg Hhhhhhhhhhhelp.
Well answered,well thought of!!!Now a lot of british falconers relish the thought of taking game from 2000ft,reality is,it just aint gonna happen!!As for tossing pigeon out to train traditionally,dont need em!!!As for working bottom up,it works a treat!!I have seen american longwinging albeit on dvd,have never seen these massive outta this planet pitches,maybe soon eh!!!!

[CloudBase1664]

[QUOTE=RyanSinTX;858292]I really shouldn’t even justify this question with a response, but since it’s an international forum and clearly many people don’t have an accurate perception how bagged quarry is used in the states so I will humor you.

How arrogant and condescending is that?You and Jonathon should try and get your heads around the fact that we are flying in the UK not Cloud Cuckoo land.!!!If like Jonathon your main aim is to "make yourself look better"get yourselves a Ted Baker suit and cut yourself a decent slice of humble pie .Sounds like you could do with it.


" So let me state again I’m not here to judge anyone’s methods and hell yes thousands of birds have been trained with out kites. "

AMEN!!

All I’m saying is if things go well in 12-15 flights to the kite and 10 pigeons max I can get a bird waiting on 1800-2000ft, and I highly doubt any non kite training methods can get the same results in that amount of time with that number of pigeons period!!

WHAT'S THE RUSH???SERIOUSLY WHAT'S THE RUSH????

Hell according to some people here in 20 days a pitch of 180ft is a good start (that statement still makes me laugh a little bit … in a non judgmental way of course).

OF COURSE!!!

. Also one of the places I fly is next to a large grain elevator where there are hundreds of pigeons flying about and she regularly uses it to slope soar off

WELL NO ONE'S PERFECT.BUT A HAWK THAT SLOPE SOARS ?I'D SAY THAT'S THE PITS .....iN A NON JUDGEMENTAL WAY OF COURSE!!!



Dave

[CloudBase1664]

Jonathon your bang on with your post mate and you helped me out a load with the Kite citics on here as I said earlier 'When the Tailgate drops the Bullshit stops'
All the Best
Phil

Hey Phil I've just rung the RAC .They are going to pop round to see why your tailgate wont drop!!:D

Dave

[Ginty]

:lol::lol::lol:

Hilarious !!

Very well put Ryan, your persuasive and well stated posts are still probably not enough for the antiquated thinkers. Don't take it personally, as they say "you can lead a horse........" I'm almost tempted to invite nay sayers of the kite to fly with me, but only after they've seen my tiercel diligently take his 1,500ft+ pitch. If they still think they have something special or the gusto to pull their birds out of the truck, I'd give them a slip. In all honesty, the people who have seen the effectiveness of the kite should keep it to themselves because non-kited bird's lackluster performance only makes you look better. Secrectly I find it comical when my friends' birds wander or only get up 300 ft. Call me sadistic but, I like to watch people struggle because of their close-minded ways.

[SmallPeregrine]

Hey Phil I've just rung the RAC .They are going to pop round to see why your tailgate wont drop!!:D

Dave
Hi Dave
Never had a problem ever of dropping me tailgate Gints and Ike travel loads aroung UK so the mechansim is a well oiled machine.
The RAC have just rang ave just but I told them am not a member and in the'AA, they know me Tailgate opens upwards anyway and theres not a problem:goodman:
Cheers
Phil

[CloudBase1664]

::

Hilarious !![/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol::supz::
Dave

[Ginty]

if you stick to flying only wild partridges, big pitches can be regulary attained in the UK.

and its quite easy to achieve especially with hybrids !!

you just have to serve 'em strong partridge in open fields and take a long walk in b4 the flush.



Well answered,well thought of!!!Now a lot of british falconers relish the thought of taking game from 2000ft,reality is,it just aint gonna happen!!As for tossing pigeon out to train traditionally,dont need em!!!As for working bottom up,it works a treat!!I have seen american longwinging albeit on dvd,have never seen these massive outta this planet pitches,maybe soon eh!!!!

[Dean]

if you stick to flying only wild partridges, big pitches can be regulary attained in the UK.

and its quite easy to achieve especially with hybrids !!

you just have to serve 'em strong partridge in open fields and take a long walk in b4 the flush.
Getting the falcon to take up a very high pitch can be attained,yes!!!!Getting the perfect set up to produce a stoop from vast height isnt!!!!Hybrids very often come in at an angled descent and power down their birds some distance away,this cannot be done on lowland game!!!Game vanishes far too quickly,maybe a maximum eight second shot is all your gonna get!

[RyanSinTX]

I really shouldn’t even justify this question with a response, but since it’s an international forum and clearly many people don’t have an accurate perception how bagged quarry is used in the states so I will humor you.

How arrogant and condescending is that?You and Jonathon should try and get your heads around the fact that we are flying in the UK not Cloud Cuckoo land.!!!If like Jonathon your main aim is to "make yourself look better"get yourselves a Ted Baker suit and cut yourself a decent slice of humble pie .Sounds like you could do with it.


" So let me state again I’m not here to judge anyone’s methods and hell yes thousands of birds have been trained with out kites. "

AMEN!!

All I’m saying is if things go well in 12-15 flights to the kite and 10 pigeons max I can get a bird waiting on 1800-2000ft, and I highly doubt any non kite training methods can get the same results in that amount of time with that number of pigeons period!!

WHAT'S THE RUSH???SERIOUSLY WHAT'S THE RUSH????

Hell according to some people here in 20 days a pitch of 180ft is a good start (that statement still makes me laugh a little bit … in a non judgmental way of course).

OF COURSE!!!

. Also one of the places I fly is next to a large grain elevator where there are hundreds of pigeons flying about and she regularly uses it to slope soar off

WELL NO ONE'S PERFECT.BUT A HAWK THAT SLOPE SOARS ?I'D SAY THAT'S THE PITS .....iN A NON JUDGEMENTAL WAY OF COURSE!!!

I think this thread needs to be moved to the My Cock is bigger then yours section…….
REALLY? i THOUGHT THE 'BULLSHIT BAFFLES BRAINS WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE APPROPRIATE

Dave

Damn Dave, no need to get all up tight.

Take another look at the guys question to me and tell me he wasn’t trying to start some sh!t. It’s called trolling he was trying to get a negative response from me. No where in any of my posts do I remotely talk about using baggies to get a bird back… So why would it even get brought up (other then to start something). If it was a legitimate question….. Then I’m in the wrong and apologize.

I wasn’t being arrogant it’s a bit hard to convey things via chatting like this. People misinterpret things very easy and get all hostile (I’m guilty of it too). If you actually read any of the other posts I think you will see that I stated it’s all very relative especially with the differences from the states and the UK. Damn I think my statements have been fairly neutral compared to most, granted the one you’re referencing was a bit sharper then the others cause of all the bickering.

Oh and about the slope soaring it’s basically a 300ft wall or tower and with a 20mph wind hitting it there is a hell of an updraft. The falcon rings up over it so I don’t really see it as a negative. I fly every day weather permitting from 10am to about 1:30pm (due to my work schedule) so I thermal the birds a lot.
Sure my female is a thermal whore but I really enjoy watching the bird go out and find a thermal ¼ mile off… ring up, and then come over head when I wave a glove for the flush. Better yet when they miss they fly right back to the same spot and ring up again. It’s all about what type of quarry you’re after and the ground you’re flying over. Two different ball games, and I never said one is better then another.

The original post is about a guy in S. Africa needing kite advise and if I’m not mistaken his hunting ground is more like the western US then the UK. Thus the relevance of the US kite method vs. the UK traditional method. Unfortunately it turned into a ****ing match because boys will be boys.

By the way the NAFA meet is in TX this year and I know plenty of people that you could go hawking with. I know the boys from Bristol will be there…maybe if they don’t think you’re a ****** you could come here with them. If I didn’t live 6 hours away from it I would even let ya stay at my house.

“By the way I support domestic violence over the beating of baby seals in Canada”. (ps thats a joke)

[Dean]

Damn Dave, no need to get all up tight.

Take another look at the guys question to me and tell me he wasn’t trying to start some sh!t. It’s called trolling he was trying to get a negative response from me. No where in any of my posts do I remotely talk about using baggies to get a bird back… So why would it even get brought up (other then to start something). If it was a legitimate question….. Then I’m in the wrong and apologize.

I wasn’t being arrogant it’s a bit hard to convey things via chatting like this. People misinterpret things very easy and get all hostile (I’m guilty of it too). If you actually read any of the other posts I think you will see that I stated it’s all very relative especially with the differences from the states and the UK. Damn I think my statements have been fairly neutral compared to most, granted the one you’re referencing was a bit sharper then the others cause of all the bickering.

Oh and about the slope soaring it’s basically a 300ft wall or tower and with a 20mph wind hitting it there is a hell of an updraft. The falcon rings up over it so I don’t really see it as a negative. I fly every day weather permitting from 10am to about 1:30pm (due to my work schedule) so I thermal the birds a lot.
Sure my female is a thermal whore but I really enjoy watching the bird go out and find a thermal ¼ mile off… ring up, and then come over head when I wave a glove for the flush. Better yet when they miss they fly right back to the same spot and ring up again. It’s all about what type of quarry you’re after and the ground you’re flying over. Two different ball games, and I never said one is better then another.

The original post is about a guy in S. Africa needing kite advise and if I’m not mistaken his hunting ground is more like the western US then the UK. Thus the relevance of the US kite method vs. the UK traditional method. Unfortunately it turned into a ****ing match because boys will be boys.

By the way the NAFA meet is in TX this year and I know plenty of people that you could go hawking with. I know the boys from Bristol will be there…maybe if they don’t think you’re a ****** you could come here with them. If I didn’t live 6 hours away from it I would even let ya stay at my house.

“By the way I support domestic violence of the beating of baby seals in Canada”. (ps thats a joke)
I,m the guy in question and there was no trolling,We dont have the benefits of slope soaring or thermaling falcons in lowland shropshire,on the contrary,some of my pools are in basins surrounded by high woodland!The falcons have to push,n.pump hard all the way for a pitch on a very short outrun!What amazes me,you get a falconer,his bird has just pumped hard to get a 600ft pitch in fairly close vacinity,she stoops out her game,his comments,"On a good day she takes up a lot more sky than that"???????Now why on earth would he want to prolong the time of reaching pitch?

[Judd Casper]

And what that got to do with price of bread.
So now what your saying dont kite 'cause it kills your bird???
Your running out of excuses 'Uncle Fester concerning kite training
Phil:)No senior Marmite you said a kited hawk has a much greater chance of coming to grief than an unkited one and this is *****but the list of kited hawks early demise far out strips that of the traditional trained hawk and i think the reason for this is they look outward instead of inward towards the falconer and if pigeon trained as well are always on the prowl for check, and to answer your question yes my falcons have checked but not as much as yours:lol: and Lexy has never killed check of any description and i don't have to kick them off barn roofs to get them to fly:rolleyes:

Sam

[SmallPeregrine]

No senior Marmite you said a kited hawk has a much greater chance of coming to grief than an unkited one and this is *****but the list of kited hawks early demise far out strips that of the traditional trained hawk and i think the reason for this is they look outward instead of inward towards the falconer and if pigeon trained as well are always on the prowl for check, and to answer your question yes my falcons have checked but not as much as yours:lol: and Lexy has never killed check of any description and i don't have to kick them off barn roofs to get them to fly:rolleyes:

Sam

Dear Uncle Fester
Dont preach to me about kite trained falcons actually while your on, dont preach to me about training Falcons 'cause you dont know what your talking about.
In your eyes Sam if a kite trained bird flies well you say its flew like 'cause its been kited if it flys bad its because its kited, no win situation with you.
Sam 3 years ago you categorically told me that my Falcon was ruined, put her in avery and forget about her when she caught several woodies off the belt because unknow to me I was flying her too sharp. I put her weight up and since then she has never looked back.
'So much for your pearls of Falcon wisdom 'Fester!??
Round about the same time you put a sportmans bet that your Female would be as fit as mine for last Woodhall to prove a point over Traditional v's Kite trained didnt you???.
I had a good Woodhall did you???
On that particular day at Woodhall your Falcons couldnt get up past 10ft, agreed my Falcon went awol but that was 'cause your mate set me up and she was an hour late in flying, true sportman that fellow!!....
But me Tiercel saved the day didn't he Sam, and as you witnessed done a cracking pitch in horrendous weather and killed a Teal off a ditch!!!, which you later told me was one of the best flights down there????
And remember I didnt kite that female that particular year.
As for pigeons...... not going there but you must of threw out bagged crows Sam to Shadow, cause youv'e killed a rookery of them with her!!! LOL
As for that particular day with me Tiercel kicking him of that Barn roof 'cause I got his weight a bit wrong been in Car from Newcastle all day, but he got up and killed a drake mallard Sam did you????
No Sam yours didnt sit on a Barn but she checked at LAPWINGS and knicked off for 45 mins didnt she earlier, selective memory there Sam so much with Lexy not checking ????
Thee has no sin cast the 1st stone!
Put a bulb in your mouth in future Uncle F so you can see what your typing 'cause you getting into a habit lately of typing complete POOH!
All the best
Phil:D

[Ginty]

agreed!

i think getting the correct set ups, is the hardest part of gamehawking! but if your bird is really high as you approach the set up, the partridge dont bale out into the first available refuge.

my first partridge of last season was taken from approximately 1700feet (worked out by cloud height and experience through kiting :lol:). The covey was flushed from a tiny pasture field. The birds went out of the field on one side over a hedge, turned over another hedge then came back into the field from where they were originally flushed, went across this field and over the opposite boundary hedge, into another field where my bird knocked one down and caught it.

i think the key is, like i said in my earlier post is casting off a long way away and have a long walk in. The covey are then completely unaware of the falcon and are less inclined to bale out into cover.

another memorable flight was when my bird was literally in the clouds (according to internet if i remeber rightly the clouds were scattered at 1800feet). I had cast off on a school playing field, walked through the school, crossed a main road, went under a tree line and into the field where the covey were a couple of 100 yds out. I walked straight out to them, with the intention of flushing them into the open field but they burst around me and flew to where i had walked from. They headed for the tree line and gained height and unbelieveably went over the trees (which were a good 60 feet high) in the direction of another field on the other side of the school. My bird came into view, levelled out and bound to one 60 feet in the air above the road and managed to carry it onto the school playing field.

I achieved this and i am a **** falconer according to "small peregrine". incidently i trained this bird myself without a kite using traditional methods, but it was only a hybrid.

Steve :D






Getting the falcon to take up a very high pitch can be attained,yes!!!!Getting the perfect set up to produce a stoop from vast height isnt!!!!Hybrids very often come in at an angled descent and power down their birds some distance away,this cannot be done on lowland game!!!Game vanishes far too quickly,maybe a maximum eight second shot is all your gonna get!

[GaryPCO]

Keep this thread on track please personal abuse wont be tolerated....think what youre writing before you write it otherwise warnings will be given!!!

Gaz

[Ginty]

Well said GAZ !!!

and thanks for removing the post in question.:lol:




Keep this thread on track please personal abuse wont be tolerated....think what youre writing before you write it otherwise warnings will be given!!!

Gaz

[SmallPeregrine]

Keep this thread on track please personal abuse wont be tolerated....think what youre writing before you write it otherwise warnings will be given!!!

Gaz
Thanx Gary, point taken on board
Phil

[Judd Casper]

Dear Uncle Fester
Dont preach to me about kite trained falcons actually while your on, dont preach to me about training Falcons 'cause you dont know what your talking about.
In your eyes Sam if a kite trained bird flies well you say its flew like 'cause its been kited if it flys bad its because its kited, no win situation with you.
Sam 3 years ago you categorically told me that my Falcon was ruined, put her in avery and forget about her when she caught several woodies off the belt because unknow to me I was flying her too sharp. I put her weight up and since then she has never looked back.
'So much for your pearls of Falcon wisdom 'Fester!??
Round about the same time you put a sportmans bet that your Female would be as fit as mine for last Woodhall to prove a point over Traditional v's Kite trained didnt you???.
I had a good Woodhall did you???
On that particular day at Woodhall your Falcons couldnt get up past 10ft, agreed my Falcon went awol but that was 'cause your mate set me up and she was an hour late in flying, true sportman that fellow!!....
But me Tiercel saved the day didn't he Sam, and as you witnessed done a cracking pitch in horrendous weather and killed a Teal off a ditch!!!, which you later told me was one of the best flights down there????
And remember I didnt kite that female that particular year.
As for pigeons...... not going there but you must of threw out bagged crows Sam to Shadow, cause youv'e killed a rookery of them with her!!! LOL
As for that particular day with me Tiercel kicking him of that Barn roof 'cause I got his weight a bit wrong been in Car from Newcastle all day, but he got up and killed a drake mallard Sam did you????
No Sam yours didnt sit on a Barn but she checked at LAPWINGS and knicked off for 45 mins didnt she earlier, selective memory there Sam so much with Lexy not checking ????
Thee has no sin cast the 1st stone!
Put a bulb in your mouth in future Uncle F so you can see what your typing 'cause you getting into a habit lately of typing complete POOH!
All the best
Phil:DBrad if you think Ginty and Ike are the answer to falconry god help us all and get yourself off to spec savers then pop into superdrug for a mirror because only a mother could love that face:lol:,and as for that drake mallard at Matts don't make us laugh Bradders it was badly and would hardly fly as i remember and got picked up out the stream and thrown to Ike it was also as thin as a rake we all thought it had bird flu did you count that seriously.The teal at woodhall was the best kill i seen at that woodhall meet nearly as good as the woodpigeon you and Kev picked Gints up from on the same day when she did one didn't admit to that one did we, someone later put us in the pitcure...now tell the truth Brad:oops:

now who's the phiistine and talking pooh!:rolleyes:
ATB
Sam

[SmallPeregrine]

Brad if you think Ginty and Ike are the answer to falconry god help us all........
Sam

Told you about that Light bulb young Fester:D
You would say that about my falcons wouldnt you:roll:

At least Ike & Gints dont suffer vertigo like Shadow and Lexy, thats for sure. People have just got to buy the Dvds which your Falcons are featured to see where am coming from on that point LOL. Here are the Dvds that Festers Academy award winning Falcons are featured in;
2002 Woodhall Dvd,
Gamehawking with the Yorkshire group
Grouse Hawking with the Yorkshire region
Diary of a Gamehawker featuring 'HalIn the 'hal video I think you were in 'Yarak more than your Tiercel, it looks get to the Grey before Murdoch does LOL!
Wasnt sexy that Mallard I agree and not as spectacular as the Lapwing flight you had when you were suppose to be flying Pheaso's. But in your 'Kill means everything mentality you ran a blank and killed bo diddly squat.
I think you want to critize my two birds they account for themselves very well in company compared to your grass cutters who were flying for 'Greenpeace.
Its probably why you didnt turn up down Fulstow that time 'cause I think you would have been shown up by two equally good Falcons??
This thread was originally to help a guy in Africa who was having problems with his kite bird and again you've hijacked this thread with your ignorant views and opinions on a subject you know very little about....Getting a bit of a habit.
Funny Uncle 'F how you dont like the facts thrown back at you which are true and start throwing personal insults at people to defend yourself.
Grow up
Good Hawking
Phil :heart:
ps wot woodie :yawinkle:

[Dean]

Keep it up lads,its nice to see the truth come out about these great falcons!:twisted:I,m beginning to think I,m the worlds greatest!:box:My only mishaps are when a ducks been took too low or outta position,does,nt seem so bad now!!!!!!:lol:

[Judd Casper]

Told you about that Light bulb young Fester:D
You would say that about my falcons wouldnt you:roll:

At least Ike & Gints dont suffer vertigo like Shadow and Lexy, thats for sure. People have just got to buy the Dvds which your Falcons are featured to see where am coming from on that point LOL. Here are the Dvds that Festers Academy award winning Falcons are featured in;
2002 Woodhall Dvd,
Gamehawking with the Yorkshire group
Grouse Hawking with the Yorkshire region
Diary of a Gamehawker featuring 'HalIn the 'hal video I think you were in 'Yarak more than your Tiercel, it looks get to the Grey before Murdoch does LOL!
Wasnt sexy that Mallard I agree and not as spectacular as the Lapwing flight you had when you were suppose to be flying Pheaso's. But in your 'Kill means everything mentality you ran a blank and killed bo diddly squat.
I think you want to critize my two birds they account for themselves very well in company compared to your grass cutters who were flying for 'Greenpeace.
Its probably why you didnt turn up down Fulstow that time 'cause I think you would have been shown up by two equally good Falcons??
This thread was originally to help a guy in Africa who was having problems with his kite bird and again you've hijacked this thread with your ignorant views and opinions on a subject you know very little about....Getting a bit of a habit.
Funny Uncle 'F how you dont like the facts thrown back at you which are true and start throwing personal insults at people to defend yourself.
Grow up
Good Hawking
Phil :heart:
ps wot woodie :yawinkle:Bradders what DVD's are Ike and Gint's in? Chris did have one flight of Gint's sat in a tree and then going up to a grass cutting pitch and dropping a *****ed wigeon back in the drink and then you put Ike up for the same *****ed duck? he left it off the DVD wonder why?.....and you call me a bag filler . I wasn't the first and the only guy on hear to knock the kite but seem to be getting most of the flack? what woodie the one Kev told us about or is he lying also? and you were the first with the personel insults Bradders so maybe you should practice what you preach and grow up yourself.Bradders I have seen Ike and Gints flown on numerous occasions and am always dissapointed by there pitches and your excuses because they don't fly any better than any traditional hawks i have seen including my grass cutters and most of the time a lot worse like at Tony Walkers or Matts the first meet...so what's the point with the kite seriously as it doesn't seem to be working for you?


Sam

[Judd Casper]

Keep it up lads,its nice to see the truth come out about these great falcons!:twisted:I,m beginning to think I,m the worlds greatest!:box:My only mishaps are when a ducks been took too low or outta position,does,nt seem so bad now!!!!!!:lol:Dean i have seen loads of these so called great kited hawks and the only one i have seen that done "quote" what it said on the tin was Freddie Simon Hyams Tiercel every one of the others no better than any traditional trained hawk..its a shame it died, i for one was looking on how it shaped up in its second season, would it have kept it up and got even better or would it start on the check we will never know.I went out with Phil and Gint's when she was an eyass and watched her go up to 1400ft on the kite at Garland's.I told him i wanted to come over again on her first flight off the kite Chris Southern was there also she went to 70ft and killed lets say something she shouldn't have caught.....that was enough for me but on seeing Simon's trained on the Armstrong method their could be something in it if you want a pitch of over a1000ft but i will carry on with my two grass cutters killing stuff from 500-800ft because i am more than happy with this and for all the talk i don't see any better done by anyone else.


Sam

[Dean]

Dean i have seen loads of these so called great kited hawks and the only one i have seen that done "quote" what it said on the tin was Freddie Simon Hyams Tiercel every one of the others no better than any traditional trained hawk..its a shame it died, i for one was looking on how it shaped up in its second season, would it have kept it up and got even better or would it start on the check we will never know.I went out with Phil and Gint's when she was an eyass and watched her go up to 1400ft on the kite at Garland's.I told him i wanted to come over again on her first flight off the kite Chris Southern was there also she went to 70ft and killed lets say something she shouldn't have caught.....that was enough for me but on seeing Simon's trained on the Armstrong method their could be something in it if you want a pitch of over a1000ft but i will carry on with my two grass cutters killing stuff from 500-800ft because i am more than happy with this and for all the talk i don't see any better done by anyone else.


Sam
Truth is Sam,No one is better or worse than the other,we all get great flights throughout a season but most of the time we dont get home fully satisfied!My birds somedays never climb over 200ft,the ducks may flush prematurely,the kill comes from there!:xThe very next day the bird climbs :Dto 600ft plus,pushes slightly upfront,verticals and clinically headshots!:D:supz:As long as they stay airborne,give me what I need to see throughout the season and do not rake away,I am happy with that!

[SmallPeregrine]

Bradders what DVD's are Ike and Gint's in? Chris did have one flight of Gint's sat in a tree and then going up to a grass cutting pitch and dropping a *****ed wigeon back in the drink and then you put Ike up for the same *****ed duck? he left it off the DVD wonder why?.....and you call me a bag filler . I wasn't the first and the only guy on hear to knock the kite but seem to be getting most of the flack? what woodie the one Kev told us about or is he lying also? and you were the first with the personel insults Bradders so maybe you should practice what you preach and grow up yourself.Bradders I have seen Ike and Gints flown on numerous occasions and am always dissapointed by there pitches and your excuses because they don't fly any better than any traditional hawks i have seen including my grass cutters and most of the time a lot worse like at Tony Walkers or Matts the first meet...so what's the point with the kite seriously as it doesn't seem to be working for you?


Sam
Whatever, your Falcons lead by example in them Dvds and examplify high pitching birds you own & fly?!:oops: LOL
I think I will follow someones advice on here and leave wot happens in the field in the field and let you keep on making a fool of yourself Qualcast Falconer.
Have a good lonely season
Phil:goodman:

[Judd Casper]

Truth is Sam,No one is better or worse than the other,we all get great flights throughout a season but most of the time we dont get home fully satisfied!My birds somedays never climb over 200ft,the ducks may flush prematurely,the kill comes from there!:xThe very next day the bird climbs :Dto 600ft plus,pushes slightly upfront,verticals and clinically headshots!:D:supz:As long as they stay airborne,give me what I need to see throughout the season and do not rake away,I am happy with that!
Ditto Dean.....maybe Blackfalcon mr southern can enlighten us on why he used the footage he did for his DVD for Bradders sake if nothing else and why Ike and Gint's got left out.


Sam

[Judd Casper]

Whatever, your Falcons lead by example in them Dvds and examplify high pitching birds you own & fly?!:oops: LOL
I think I will follow someones advice on here and leave wot happens in the field in the field and let you keep on making a fool of yourself Qualcast Falconer.
Have a good lonely season
Phil:goodman:Better get the RAC and the AA there then Bradders,because as you say when the tailgate drops the bullshit stops,I don't think i'll be too lonely somehow.

Sam

[SmallPeregrine]

Better get the RAC and the AA there then Bradders,because as you say when the tailgate drops the bullshit stops,I don't think i'll be too lonely somehow.

Sam
Woodhall Spa Uncle Fester and the one before that..... I rest my case LOL
Phil
:lol:

[Judd Casper]

Woodhall Spa Uncle Fester and the one before that..... I rest my case LOL
Phil
:lol:Bradders stay in the twilight zone it suits you...:lol:

Sam

[SmallPeregrine]

Bradders stay in the twilight zone it suits you...:lol:

Sam

Good Luck:yawinkle:
Phil

[Dean]

Dean i have seen loads of these so called great kited hawks and the only one i have seen that done "quote" what it said on the tin was Freddie Simon Hyams Tiercel every one of the others no better than any traditional trained hawk..its a shame it died, i for one was looking on how it shaped up in its second season, would it have kept it up and got even better or would it start on the check we will never know.I went out with Phil and Gint's when she was an eyass and watched her go up to 1400ft on the kite at Garland's.I told him i wanted to come over again on her first flight off the kite Chris Southern was there also she went to 70ft and killed lets say something she shouldn't have caught.....that was enough for me but on seeing Simon's trained on the Armstrong method their could be something in it if you want a pitch of over a1000ft but i will carry on with my two grass cutters killing stuff from 500-800ft because i am more than happy with this and for all the talk i don't see any better done by anyone else.


Sam
Now,there we go,Jeff Armstrong,a brilliant falconer,uses the kite to great effect!Then we have Martin Jones,a brilliant falconer,uses traditional methods to great effect!!!My arguement is not against the kite its against the misuse of it! P.S I didnt even know Jeff trained birds to the kite,but if he does,hes doing something right!

[CloudBase1664]

Damn Dave, no need to get all up tight.

Ryan ??
Sorry for the late reply I was waiting for the smoke to clear!OK I've had a glass of milk and a lie down and I'm feeling better now:lol:On reflection I can see that my "burn it" quote taken out of context could cause offence and I should have perhaps put it better therefore Jonathons post(no67) and Phils reply(80)which rattled my cage are probably a dose of my own medicine

Sure my female is a thermal whore but I really enjoy watching the bird go out and find a thermal ¼ mile off… ring up, and then come over head when I wave a glove for the flush. Better yet when they miss they fly right back to the same spot and ring up again. It’s all about what type of quarry you’re after and the ground you’re flying over. Two different ball games, and I never said one is better then another.
As Dean stated there is little in the way of lift in our neck of the woods .Hawks have to work hard for their pitches and thats what most of us like to see .For many its not the pitch but the manner the hawk makes it in that counts .A famous falconer once said "A hawk with a horseshoe tied to its leg would still get up on a thermal":lol: I was once on a fieldmeet and witnessed a famous imprint tiercel climb in a lazy fashion to 1500ft (confirmed by a range finder )by the time he got there two falconers who had seen him before had got back in their cars and gone home.When a covey was flushed under him I reckon he came down slower than he went up!!

The original post is about a guy in S. Africa needing kite advise and if I’m not mistaken his hunting ground is more like the western US then the UK. Thus the relevance of the US kite method vs. the UK traditional method. Unfortunately it turned into a ****ing match because boys will be boys.

This is the trad method I was going to recommend before the **** hit the fan,I've had this work for me first time with a tiercel but it may take longer .What ever, the principle is clear. -Mark the quarry down with dog or glass .Walk it up with the hawk on the fist .Unhood the hawk and flush the quarry .The hawk ,if not to fit!! should be beaten to cover where the hawk should take stand or wait on .What ever reflush!Again the hawk will be beaten unless he has waited on .The next day do the same ,sooner or later the hawk will remount in anticpation of the reflush and you are in the ballgame !!(D;Arcussia Falconry 1664)

By the way the NAFA meet is in TX this year and I know plenty of people that you could go hawking with. I know the boys from Bristol will be there…maybe if they don’t think you’re a ****** you could come here with them. If I didn’t live 6 hours away from it I would even let ya stay at my house.
Sorry my mum told me never to go off with strange men:lol:

Dave

With all this talk of high flying kite hawks I thought I was starting to develope an inferiority complex but my doctor put my mind at rest. I didn't have a complex. I was inferior!!(an even worse joke):lol:

“

[Dean]

Ryan ??
Sorry for the late reply I was waiting for the smoke to clear!OK I've had a glass of milk and a lie down and I'm feeling better now:lol:On reflection I can see that my "burn it" quote taken out of context could cause offence and I should have perhaps put it better therefore Jonathons post(no67) and Phils reply(80)which rattled my cage are probably a dose of my own medicine


As Dean stated there is little in the way of lift in our neck of the woods .Hawks have to work hard for their pitches and thats what most of us like to see .For many its not the pitch but the manner the hawk makes it in that counts .A famous falconer once said "A hawk with a horseshoe tied to its leg would still get up on a thermal":lol: I was once on a fieldmeet and witnessed a famous imprint tiercel climb in a lazy fashion to 1500ft (confirmed by a range finder )by the time he got there two falconers who had seen him before had got back in their cars and gone home.When a covey was flushed under him I reckon he came down slower than he went up!!



This is the trad method I was going to recommend before the **** hit the fan,I've had this work for me first time with a tiercel but it may take longer .What ever, the principle is clear. -Mark the quarry down with dog or glass .Walk it up with the hawk on the fist .Unhood the hawk and flush the quarry .The hawk ,if not to fit!! should be beaten to cover where the hawk should take stand or wait on .What ever reflush!Again the hawk will be beaten unless he has waited on .The next day do the same ,sooner or later the hawk will remount in anticpation of the reflush and you are in the ballgame !!(D;Arcussia Falconry 1664)


Sorry my mum told me never to go off with strange men:lol:

Dave

With all this talk of high flying kite hawks I thought I was starting to develope an inferiority complex but my doctor put my mind at rest. I didn't have a complex. I was inferior!!(an even worse joke):lol:

“
Amen too that!!!

[Tezz]

Ryan ??
Sorry for the late reply I was waiting for the smoke to clear!OK I've had a glass of milk and a lie down and I'm feeling better now:lol:On reflection I can see that my "burn it" quote taken out of context could cause offence and I should have perhaps put it better therefore Jonathons post(no67) and Phils reply(80)which rattled my cage are probably a dose of my own medicine


Good post Dave.

Tezz