What is the average height?

[GameHawker]

My Tiercel has been on the kite 6 days today, Last night he ****ed 1200' my question is what is the highest you have kited to. In the past I have only kited to 1200' kept them there for a 3 days then moved on to alternative training methods. Where do you normally stop, I have 1750' of kite line on the reel and am thinking about doing the whole lot on Sunday evening?

Regards Carl

[Dean]

My Tiercel has been on the kite 6 days today, Last night he ****ed 1200' my question is what is the highest you have kited to. In the past I have only kited to 1200' kept them there for a 3 days then moved on to alternative training methods. Where do you normally stop, I have 1750' of kite line on the reel and am thinking about doing the whole lot on Sunday evening?

Regards Carl
Add some more Carl,about 4000ft and go for it!!!!Lets beat those yanks!!!:twisted::D

[Old Wolfie Gosser]

Hi Carl

Sorry to change question tried to PM you but would'nt let me,Im training an eyass Tiercel myself but he don't seem to keen on grabbing lure from kite.
Do you let him grab a swung lure before starting on kite? I've only used the drop on floor method when calling him off.
Also Do you use a dead Quail or leather lure and what type of release mechanism.

thanks

regards Mick Fox

[Gozzhawk]

1000ft , never applied for permission above that.

[GameHawker]

Hi Carl

Sorry to change question tried to PM you but would'nt let me,Im training an eyass Tiercel myself but he don't seem to keen on grabbing lure from kite.
Do you let him grab a swung lure before starting on kite? I've only used the drop on floor method when calling him off.
Also Do you use a dead Quail or leather lure and what type of release mechanism.

thanks

regards Mick Fox


I had this problem with my falcon this year reduced her weight slightly and held the lure of the floor for a few days. As soon as they have done it a few times they sound go to the lure on the kite day 7 for her on the kite and she is going well to 700'.

Regards Carl

[Mark Collins]

Hi Carl, 1300ft , did it quite a few times with a cast of gyr/merlins a good few years ago, in fact i lost one off the kite, never saw it again, later on i had a helicopter circling me , havnt been as high since, now i go half that or less but put the falcon up twice , mark.

[Ginty]

Carl
If your tiercel has been on the Kite 6 days and easily done 1200feet, would you agree kite training doesn't get birds that fit ?? fit enough for gamehawking but not proper fit.

My mate kited a gyr/peregrine x merlin for months to 1500feet and it got up there in no time at all, but when we tried to fly it on hedgerows it was completely knackered and panting its ass off after only about 50yds of hedgerow.

I did a female pere to 1700ft last season, its no big deal and the bird doesnt look that small either ??

Changing the subject, why dont you get into manufacturing this sort of thing: http://www.omlet.co.uk/products_services/products_services.php?view=Chickens
The demand for them is unbelieveable and they go for £360.

Steve




My Tiercel has been on the kite 6 days today, Last night he ****ed 1200' my question is what is the highest you have kited to. In the past I have only kited to 1200' kept them there for a 3 days then moved on to alternative training methods. Where do you normally stop, I have 1750' of kite line on the reel and am thinking about doing the whole lot on Sunday evening?

Regards Carl

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

My Tiercel has been on the kite 6 days today, Last night he ****ed 1200' my question is what is the highest you have kited to. In the past I have only kited to 1200' kept them there for a 3 days then moved on to alternative training methods. Where do you normally stop, I have 1750' of kite line on the reel and am thinking about doing the whole lot on Sunday evening?

Regards Carl

Hi Carl,

Ive kited a female peregrine to about 2000'. That was with about 2400 feet of line out so allowing for angle and all that. She looked very small!
A friend put 3000' of line out for his tiercel for a laugh.
We couldn't tell when the tiercel had got the bait until he came down a bit with it.
Incidentally I didn't do that good a job with that falcon because I didn't have plan or follow the recipe that seems to abound now.
As far as fitness goes Ive never thought that it makes them super fit.
Its quite easy for a hawk to coast up to 1000' and snag a bait. Its the habit of mounting to a point in the sky where you can reward it, that makes it such a great tool in my opinion.
A friend has just pulled his female out and she did 600' on her second flight out the moulting pen....
The whole super fitness thing with the kite is a red herring. Its not why we do it.

Nick

[RyanSinTX]

I switched from a parachute release to a down rigger releases last season and used a 3000ft spool of line. Max bait height was 2000ft.

I also started doing multiple flights to the bait. I think this season I’m going to use multiple releases to speed things up a bit. It should help in training two birds at once also (unless you have an over achiever that grabs the top bait line first). Four flights to 2000ft using one bait line wore my @ss out! Temps in the 90’s don’t help either.

Training in TX during August isn’t fun, but having a bird ready to hunt sage hen in September is Priceless!

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

I switched from a parachute release to a down rigger releases last season and used a 3000ft spool of line. Max bait height was 2000ft.

I also started doing multiple flights to the bait. I think this season I’m going to use multiple releases to speed things up a bit. It should help in training two birds at once also (unless you have an over achiever that grabs the top bait line first). Four flights to 2000ft using one bait line wore my @ss out! Temps in the 90’s don’t help either.

Training in TX during August isn’t fun, but having a bird ready to hunt sage hen in September is Priceless!


Id be interested to hear what release mechanism you used on the parachute.
Did you just stuff the chute into a tube and the bait holds on friction or did you have a secondary clip on the line?
Also why have you gone to the downrigger release?
Im going to use a parachute this season to try and give the falcon an easier ride to the ground.
Nick

[CloudBase1664]

A friend has just pulled his female out and she did 600' on her second flight out the moulting pen....
The whole super fitness thing with the kite is a red herring. Its not why we do it.

Nick[/QUOTE]

Interesting statement Nick I have a suspicion that many of us confuse 'fitness' with 'condition'My tiercel came out of the moulting pen 3 seasons ago after a 7 months rest climbed to 3-400 ft in a strong wind and killed a hen pheasant. All they need is motivation and a well conditioned hawk has this.Fitness is 90% in the head.To reach condition a young eyas or an intermewed hawk needs to be enseamed ie lose excess fat .A kite is probably as good a way as any to achieve this.After all however high it is expected to climb it is climbing to a stationary object and can do so in its own time but this has got to be better than washed meat and rangle .

Dave

[stan smiles]

there is nothing so bad as seeing a falcon silding done a kite line those who do it in demos are showing a bad sign to the joe public if you want to send your falcon to a kite then you should tie a reversed falconers knot so that the falcon can just pull the meat out and come to ground without looking that it has been hung up and then drag to ground

[CloudBase1664]

[
Interesting statement Nick I have a suspicion that many of us confuse 'fitness' with 'condition'My tiercel came out of the moulting pen 3 seasons ago after a 7 months rest climbed to 3-400 ft in a strong wind and killed a hen pheasant. All they need is motivation and a well conditioned hawk has this.Fitness is 90% in the head.To reach condition a young eyas or an intermewed hawk needs to be enseamed ie lose excess fat .A kite is probably as good a way as any to achieve this.After all however high it is expected to climb it is climbing to a stationary object and can do so in its own time but this has got to be better than washed meat and rangle .

Dave[/QUOTE]
Before I get crucified I 'd add I have nothing against washed meat and rangle but good food and exercise would seem a viable alternative.

Dave

[CotswoldRedtail]

[
Interesting statement Nick I have a suspicion that many of us confuse 'fitness' with 'condition'My tiercel came out of the moulting pen 3 seasons ago after a 7 months rest climbed to 3-400 ft in a strong wind and killed a hen pheasant. All they need is motivation and a well conditioned hawk has this.Fitness is 90% in the head.To reach condition a young eyas or an intermewed hawk needs to be enseamed ie lose excess fat .A kite is probably as good a way as any to achieve this.After all however high it is expected to climb it is climbing to a stationary object and can do so in its own time but this has got to be better than washed meat and rangle .

Dave
Before I get crucified I 'd add I have nothing against washed meat and rangle but good food and exercise would seem a viable alternative.

Dave[/quote]
I've always thought that feeding a bird washed meat is rather like feeding an athlete celery, is it not better to give a bird thats being trained a decent diet like you say? I mean, what really are the advantages of washed meat?

Ash

[Tezz]

I switched from a parachute release to a down rigger releases last season and used a 3000ft spool of line. Max bait height was 2000ft.

I also started doing multiple flights to the bait. I think this season I’m going to use multiple releases to speed things up a bit. It should help in training two birds at once also (unless you have an over achiever that grabs the top bait line first). Four flights to 2000ft using one bait line wore my @ss out! Temps in the 90’s don’t help either.

Training in TX during August isn’t fun, but having a bird ready to hunt sage hen in September is Priceless!

Hi Ryan,
I'm interested in the parachute release but haven't been fortunate see it in action.
Is the falcon able to free fall with the lure without being attached to the kite line unlike the down rigger release? if the parachute isn't attached to the kite line what distance does the falcon travel before hitting terrafirma from a height of 1000ft.
Would you be willing to share your set up with others by way of giving us a diagram please;)

Tezz

[GameHawker]

Hi Ryan,
I'm interested in the parachute release but haven't been fortunate see it in action.
Is the falcon able to free fall with the lure without being attatched to the kite line unlike the down rigger release? if the parachute isn't attatched to the kite line what distance does the falcon travel before hitting terrafirma from a height of 1000ft.
Would you be willing to share your set up with others by way of giving us a diagram please;)

Tezz

Tezz
Unless you have wide open country to kite in the parachute release method is a non starter for most of in the UK to many hang ups to consider.

Carl

[SmallPeregrine]

I've done 1860ft on the kite with Gints down at Garlands and verified it with a range finder, it took her just over 9mins. I couldnt hardly see the kite nor could the micro lite that nearly cut the line in half!:yawinkle:
Phil

[GameHawker]

there is nothing so bad as seeing a falcon silding done a kite line those who do it in demos are showing a bad sign to the joe public if you want to send your falcon to a kite then you should tie a reversed falconers knot so that the falcon can just pull the meat out and come to ground without looking that it has been hung up and then drag to ground


Stan I us a small pulley which is attached to the kite line this works really well. The falcon coming down the kite line comes down pretty quick. It also depends on the angle the kite is flying on how smooth the falcon comes down the line. You do see a lot of people with the wrong kite for the conditions using cheap copies. I have 3 kite for different condition to ensure I get a the kite line near on vertical.

Carl

[GameHawker]

I've done 1860ft on the kite with Gints down at Garlands and verified it with a range finder, it took her just over 9mins. I couldnt hardly see the kite nor could the micro lite that nearly cut the line in half!:yawinkle:
Phil

I sound like a right pussy with only 1750' on the reel never mind the little fella is getting 1750' bar a couple of turns on the reel.

Carl

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

A friend has just pulled his female out and she did 600' on her second flight out the moulting pen....
The whole super fitness thing with the kite is a red herring. Its not why we do it.

Nick

Interesting statement Nick I have a suspicion that many of us confuse 'fitness' with 'condition'My tiercel came out of the moulting pen 3 seasons ago after a 7 months rest climbed to 3-400 ft in a strong wind and killed a hen pheasant. All they need is motivation and a well conditioned hawk has this.Fitness is 90% in the head.To reach condition a young eyas or an intermewed hawk needs to be enseamed ie lose excess fat .A kite is probably as good a way as any to achieve this.After all however high it is expected to climb it is climbing to a stationary object and can do so in its own time but this has got to be better than washed meat and rangle .

Dave[/QUOTE]

Dave,
Fair points Dave though I still believe you have to put muscle on a young eyas initially (by whatever method), and develop its heart and lungs.
To draw a rather shaky analogy they reckon Lance Armstrong had over twice the blood pumping ability of a normal person because he was doing triathlons when he was eleven years old and his heart and lungs developed greatly as a result.

Its natural and mirrors what an eyas would be doing in the wild. Even if what we are doing with them is artificial I still believe its essential for the falcons physical and more importantly mental development to give it some wind because I believe the basic principle that any falconry bird whatever it is will perform better if its properly fit.
The one theory I just don't go along with is that a fit hawk is less likely to go up than an unfit one. I believe the reverse, it makes it more able to go up in harsh conditions but like you said its what in its head that makes it go up and thats down to other factors.
When you have this muscle memory laid down a little conditioning will soon revive it after the moult etc.
Zulu used to do a good pitch on his first flight out of the pen but I spent weeks in his first season working his ass off with the kite and so the initial investment had been put in.

Another useful aspect of the kite is that it is a good way to get your falcon flying really well in winds.
Not the only way but a really useful tool.

I believe stooping a falcon hard to the lure gets their beak open more but its exercise maybe channelled in the wrong direction if you want it wait on.

Nick

[Dean]

Interesting statement Nick I have a suspicion that many of us confuse 'fitness' with 'condition'My tiercel came out of the moulting pen 3 seasons ago after a 7 months rest climbed to 3-400 ft in a strong wind and killed a hen pheasant. All they need is motivation and a well conditioned hawk has this.Fitness is 90% in the head.To reach condition a young eyas or an intermewed hawk needs to be enseamed ie lose excess fat .A kite is probably as good a way as any to achieve this.After all however high it is expected to climb it is climbing to a stationary object and can do so in its own time but this has got to be better than washed meat and rangle .

Dave

Dave,
Fair points Dave though I still believe you have to put muscle on a young eyas initially (by whatever method), and develop its heart and lungs.
To draw a rather shaky analogy they reckon Lance Armstrong had over twice the blood pumping ability of a normal person because he was doing triathlons when he was eleven years old and his heart and lungs developed greatly as a result.

Its natural and mirrors what an eyas would be doing in the wild. Even if what we are doing with them is artificial I still believe its essential for the falcons physical and more importantly mental development to give it some wind because I believe the basic principle that any falconry bird whatever it is will perform better if its properly fit.
The one theory I just don't go along with is that a fit hawk is less likely to go up than an unfit one. I believe the reverse, it makes it more able to go up in harsh conditions but like you said its what in its head that makes it go up and thats down to other factors.
When you have this muscle memory laid down a little conditioning will soon revive it after the moult etc.
Zulu used to do a good pitch on his first flight out of the pen but I spent weeks in his first season working his ass off with the kite and so the initial investment had been put in.

Another useful aspect of the kite is that it is a good way to get your falcon flying really well in winds.
Not the only way but a really useful tool.

I believe stooping a falcon hard to the lure gets their beak open more but its exercise maybe channelled in the wrong direction if you want it wait on.

Nick[/quote]
Good post Nick,do you think that falcons can be pushed too hard during early lessons regarding fitness,without conditioning being thought out?After all,they have muscle,tendons etc just as athletes do!!!Pushing them too hard may result in minor mishaps that could ruin a potential game-hawk!I do know that the eyas falcons in the local eyrie do build up fitness very slowly,there is no constant whip to them for some time!

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

[/quote]
Good post Nick,do you think that falcons can be pushed too hard during early lessons regarding fitness,without conditioning being thought out?After all,they have muscle,tendons etc just as athletes do!!!Pushing them too hard may result in minor mishaps that could ruin a potential game-hawk!I do know that the eyas falcons in the local eyrie do build up fitness very slowly,there is no constant whip to them for some time![/QUOTE]

Dean,
I don't think kiting them hard or stooping them hard to the lure is even getting close to working them hard compared to their wild cousins, they don't even do a fraction of what they would have done in the same time frame.
Most wild eyases are flying a couple of weeks before they hard -penned (while most of our eyases are still in the pen). By hard penning the wild eyas has probably done more flying than a trained one will do in its first season.

I always remember a fledgling tiercel that dropped out of its eyrie onto an office block window. Myself and the office workers gave it a few quail for a two or three days to tide it over before it got up off the roof and fledged proper.
It was the only eyas raised by that pair that year.
One week to the day later I saw what I thought was the old tiercel zipping around in a gale 500 hundred feet up.
It made flying in that wind, that no falconer would have flown in, look easy.
It landed in a the top of a large stack and I got the scope on it.
It was the same eyas tiercel we had fed a few days before. I bet it was only 7 and a half weeks old and it could only have been just hard penned if at all.

This is the wild benchmark and I like to try and get as near as possible through early training as I can, knowing ill only get 10% at best. I want my hawk as fit/muscled as possible whilst still being under control.
Other people would be scared of a creating check monster that doesn't go up but I haven't found this to be generally the case so far.

I suppose you could call it the top-down vs bottom up debate. I prefer the former because I think its harder to make a high flying gamehawk than a low flying killer.
Nick

[RyanSinTX]

Hi Ryan,
I'm interested in the parachute release but haven't been fortunate see it in action.
Is the falcon able to free fall with the lure without being attached to the kite line unlike the down rigger release? if the parachute isn't attached to the kite line what distance does the falcon travel before hitting terrafirma from a height of 1000ft.
Would you be willing to share your set up with others by way of giving us a diagram please;)

Tezz

Yeah the parachute is held in a cylinder (i use X-ray film very light weight and the nylon slips out of it nicely). When the falcon grabs the bait the tension pulls it out and they both come floating down.
As far as travel distance during the time the bird is under canopy (skydiver lingo) it depends on wind speed, chute diameter, and height of release. I have never really measured landing distance before. You defiantly need some space or a safe buffer zone (50-100 yards). Im lucky there are no trees in the feilds I fly so I just need to avoid roads & powerlines.

I will try to draw something up at work and post it. I do like the chute over the downrigger, but flying high in a small space its the way to go.

Im hoping to shoot an instructnal video on Kite training here in the next few weeks so keep your eyes open for some video clips in the next month or so.

[Dean]

Nick,I do agree to some extent,it is more difficult to procure a high flying"successful gamehawk"!It isnt however difficult to procure a high flying falcon even through traditional methods!!!During my first attempts at gamehawking,my theory was,to fly peregrines as I did my Lanners,Luggars etc years before,in the clouds!!My first peregrine tiercel,Black Shaheen,I flew into and out of the clouds,bearing in mind at this time I did want a successful killing gamehawk,obviously this never happened due to my terrain,he was allowed out of sight position before I even attempted a flush,it came to a point due to many failed flights that he often refused game and just stayed high for hours!!!The next season I did exactly the same with a fresh eyas,no joy!!!Now this was down to lack of fieldcraft and experience on my behalf,very high flying falcons with nothing to do!!It was after this that I started to realise I would start flushing game on the pump and not the set,this made for falcons that would fly literally as high as they and I needed them to be for success!!!It works for me and the land that I use,my falcons still regularly pop the clouds but it has to be bloody low cloud!!!:wink: