huge fin. goshawk males

[Shaheen]

Hi,
offers can be made now for huge fin. goshawk males from 2005, huntingweights between 850 to 950 gr, very successful hunters. Make your orders please, to be sure, that you can fly such a phantastic bird, a desposit will be asked.

[Natch]

dont look huge to me, can you convert to pounds and ounces please

[Finnish]

Is that a guaranteed weight or your money back :? :?: :?:

[OutFlying]

It depends are they p/r or imprints ? Weights quoted 1-14 to 2-1 1/2. Flew an imprint first year male off Mick Kane last year - took a cock pheasant at 2-3 but best weight for all round results 2lb to 2-1. If parent reared and first year weights then I would say they are large males, but who was flying them at this weight and what were the results.

[Shaheen]

Hi,

the weights are parent raised and not imprinted. The weights in pounds and ounzes are between 1 lb 14 oz to 2 lb 1 oz. A friend of mine has flown last year a male of 2004, which you can see on the photo, with 2 lb very successful on ducks.

[Hawkmaster]

Very pretty looking too. Are all the Females sold?

[Finnish]

Who,s blood line are they from?????

[M & J Raptors]

Tha name of the breeder will do,

[Gaz]

Is that a guaranteed weight or your money back
:?:

[Shaheen]

They are out of Harry Gilberts bloodline and we don´t sell females for the moment.

[Gaz]

Is that a guaranteed weight or your money back
:?:

[M & J Raptors]

They are out of Harry Gilberts bloodline and we don´t sell females for the moment.

and who's is we :?: or is it a big secret

[Lurker]

deffo interested, can you pm me a contact number please

[Goldie]

I can understand someone wanting a large female approaching the 3lb mark, but what will a "huge fin.goshawk male at the weight quoted and will likely be around the £1200 mark have to offer that you wont get from
a european female at about £300 less? apart from its use in the breeding pen. I'm not being arguementative, just curious.

[Lurker]

temprement for one

[Goldie]

Yes I understand they are less tempremantal as a rule but I cant say I have had any great problems with mine with the exeption of when I picked them up at the beginning of the season. They were hunted every day weather permitting and one way or another they had a kill.

[Shaheen]

I´m very curious about what happend in the last 12 hours. I have set a simple advertisment in this forum, there are prices named in the fact that I havn´t ever spoken about this and so on.

So please, contact me under p.m. if you are serious interested in these males and let it be, if you want only to talk and let your phantasy a too large place without ever heard any facts.

[M & J Raptors]

I´m very curious about what happend in the last 12 hours. I have set a simple advertisment in this forum, there are prices named in the fact that I havn´t ever spoken about this and so on.

So please, contact me under p.m. if you are serious interested in these males and let it be, if you want only to talk and let your phantasy a too large place without ever heard any facts.

I think you will find that most people like to know who they are dealing with, and what lines your gosses are, its not much to ask to put a contact tel no or a contact name, also you will find that breeders names usually go with the quality of the birds they sell. these people are only asking serious questions concerning you birds, if you cannot take questions then i wouldn't bother putting an advert on.

cheers

Billy

[Lurker]

I think you will find that most people like to know who they are dealing with,

thats rich mate, is it billy casper, mick, or martin today

[Goldie]

Especially when you haven't even introduced yourself. Although not a requisite of the forum, it is common decency.

[M & J Raptors]

I think you will find that most people like to know who they are dealing with,

thats rich mate, is it billy casper, mick, or martin today

tell you what, why dont you decide lurker, :lol:

[Shaun Byrne]

I think you will find that most people like to know who they are dealing with,

thats rich mate, is it billy casper, mick, or martin today

Maybe he would tell you if he was selling something. Until he does who gives a **** WHO he is?

[Hawkmaster]

Relax guys...

[Gaz]

:?:

[OutFlying]

Those weights are bigger than any finnish male I've flown (p/r) or heard of, I would be interested to know who breed them and more so in who flew them.

[Natch]

Hi, guys and dolls, dont u think your counting your chickens before they have hathed, have been breeding goshawks pure finnish for 10 years, and sometimes things can go wrong. all females make 3lb plus, and most males make 2lb plus these are out the avairy weights at 9 10 weeks old.
many satisfied bristol boys flying these birds ie hawkman 69uk plus 2 associates, jazz who is flying male in visular thread, plus he purchased female on funny pole in finnish back garden. hope to be breeding some more big beauties shortly. :finga:

[M & J Raptors]

Hi, guys and dolls, dont u think your counting your chickens before they have hathed, have been breeding goshawks pure finnish for 10 years, and sometimes things can go wrong. all females make 3lb plus, and most males make 2lb plus these are out the avairy weights at 9 10 weeks old.
many satisfied bristol boys flying these birds ie hawkman 69uk plus 2 associates, jazz who is flying male in visular thread, plus he purchased female on funny pole in finnish back garden. hope to be breeding some more big beauties shortly. :finga:

Hi Gary

Hope all is well with the gosses, :shock:

[OutFlying]

and most males make 2lb plus these are out the avairy weights at 9 10 weeks old.

Are you quoting first season flying weights or out of aviary weights ? 2-1 p/r first season (regular hunting weight not one off) is a very large male - what weight second / third season ?

[M & J Raptors]

and most males make 2lb plus these are out the avairy weights at 9 10 weeks old.

Are you quoting first season flying weights or out of aviary weights ? 2-1 p/r first season (regular hunting weight not one off) is a very large male - what weight second / third season ?

outflying

The gosses advertised are the same breeding has mine, in fact the breeder has some of my birds, the pic of the male looks like your male,

cheers

Billy, Mick, Martin , :lol: or who else you would like to call me :shock:

[OutFlying]

Billy, As you know I take a keen interest in finnish male goshawks. From a picture or on the fist, a finnish gos can be deceptive regarding weight due to the fact they may be no longer in body length or have much bigger feet than other gosses that is until you feel their keel and THEN you realise how much bigger across the chest/shoulders they are at a corresponding weight. If I finished a p/r male at 2-1 1/2 first season I would expect it to fly higher in its second or third season - never heard of a totally p/r male gos at this weight and certainly not higher. I am interested to hear of one and what it's season panned out like - i.e avairy weight, starting weight and field performance. Is it one gos that these weights are based on or a few.

[M & J Raptors]

Billy, As you know I take a keen interest in finnish male goshawks. From a picture or on the fist, a finnish gos can be deceptive regarding weight due to the fact they may be no longer in body length or have much bigger feet than other gosses that is until you feel their keel and THEN you realise how much bigger across the chest/shoulders they are at a corresponding weight. If I finished a p/r male at 2-1 1/2 first season I would expect it to fly higher in its second or third season - never heard of a totally p/r male gos at this weight and certainly not higher. I am interested to hear of one and what it's season panned out like - i.e avairy weight, starting weight and field performance. Is it one gos that these weights are based on or a few.

Outflying

Lets just say i know about these Gosses and they are the same has we have got over here in the UK :?
i think most breeders in the UK have the same bloodlines, [ Gilbert's] these birds can vary in size and flying weights, it really depends on who's flying them, I'm lucky to have sold some good birds to very good falconers who know what they are doing with gosses and to fly them at the highest weight through muscle and condition and bloody hard work.
we are all looking for the BIG gos, and with males can see why, personally i prefer Fins because of their steady temperament and biddable nature, and of course their good looks, 8)

cheers


Billy

[OutFlying]

Billy,
As you know some people (breeders) are advertising silly flying weights for gosses on the internet. Usually based on their highest ever but the same gos flown by 2 different people may vary by quite a few ounces. Even so 2 -1 1/2 for a first season male is unheard in this part of the country - have you seen or heard one flying at this weight (p/r) ?

[M & J Raptors]

Billy,
As you know some people (breeders) are advertising silly flying weights for gosses on the internet. Usually based on their highest ever but the same gos flown by 2 different people may vary by quite a few ounces. Even so 2 -1 1/2 for a first season male is unheard in this part of the country - have you seen or heard one flying at this weight (p/r) ?


NO :(

[OutFlying]

I can understand someone wanting a large female approaching the 3lb mark, but what will a "huge fin.goshawk male at the weight quoted and will likely be around the £1200 mark have to offer that you wont get from
a european female at about £300 less? apart from its use in the breeding pen. I'm not being arguementative, just curious.

Don't know of anyone getting £1200 for a male finnish p/r gos, usually £800 -£1000. Who sells 2lb +female gosses for £900 ? I know a few people who would be interested to buy a eyass female that flew at 2-2 for £900

[Goldie]

[quote outflying
Don't know of anyone getting £1200 for a male finnish p/r gos, usually £800 -£1000. Who sells 2lb +female gosses for £900 ? I know a few people who would be interested to buy a eyass female that flew at 2-2 for £900[/quote]

Lee, I reckon the £1000 is close to the mark, and as I haven't heard of a first season p/r male either that was 2lb.1.1/2 I was merely estimating what he might be asking for them as they could well have been the biggest in the country.
Female euro gosses only made £900 in my part of the country last year.
I bred 2 males and 1 female, sold the males no prob at £550 and no interest in the female at £1000 !! so Idropped it to £900 in line with a couple of other breeders who were selling at that price. Not so sure that there is the same market up here in Scotland.

[Shaheen]

Hi,

sorry, but till yesterday we are sold out, thank you for your interest.

[Jack Merlin]

I can understand someone wanting a large female approaching the 3lb mark

Damned if I can! Like going shooting with a 8 bore when a 12 will do the same job, or even a 20 bore, and is less weight to lug around.

Also, that's a good question about the males -- why buy a 2lb male when you can get a 2lb female a lot cheaper?

Still asking the question and still waiting for a sensible reply. Somehow I think I am in for a very long wait.

Sheep hawking, anyone??

[OutFlying]

I can understand someone wanting a large female approaching the 3lb mark

Also, that's a good question about the males -- why buy a 2lb male when you can get a 2lb female a lot cheaper?

Still asking the question and still waiting for a sensible reply. Somehow I think I am in for a very long wait.



Finnish males average price £800, not many females at this price. If the gos is to be used for breeding later - the value of the males offspring will be greater than the euro females offspring thus leading to higher prices for the finnish males. It then comes down to personnel choice regarding the gos, (looks, temperment, style etc).

[Jack Merlin]

Finnish males average price £800, not many females at this price.

Must be a matter of location. Finn males were a lot more expensive up north, female Germans cheaper.

Nobody taking me up on sheep hawking then?<g>

Still waiting to hear of the advantages of a 3lb+ goshawk -- or even one over 2.5lbs -- as there are plenty of records of two pounders catch brown hares. And if you're worried about temperament, wouldn't a HH be a better bet? Sounds like the emperor's clothes syndrome to me....

My impression of huge goshawks is that they are not agile enough to catch wild bred pheasants regularly though probably ideal for reared birds. A bit like using deerhounds to course hares, or greyhounds on rabbits. It just doesn't work.

[OutFlying]

"And if you're worried about temperament, wouldn't a HH be a better bet? Sounds like the emperor's clothes syndrome to me.... "

I prefer to fly that certain type of male, and from the usual lines I've flown - found them to nice and steady without extreme measures needed to man them to high standards. Found the german / czech types to be a bit scatty. Just my observations , but most people seem to have similar results. Without the 3lb females where would you get the good large males from :lol: . I've found the finnish males to be easier than a harris hawk, so it wouldn't be a better bet - just harder work for less results.

Jack you breed a line of pointers which you claim has certain qualities and charge accordingly, isn't the same possible with goshawks ? If not, why not ?

[OutFlying]

:tonqe:

[Finnish]

Without the 3lb females where would you get the good large males from . I've found the finnish males to be easier than a harris hawk,

I totaly agree with you.

[Jack Merlin]

Jack you breed a line of pointers which you claim has certain qualities and charge accordingly, isn't the same possible with goshawks ? If not, why not ?

Yes, but I breed them for work and don't sell by weight.<g>

A big pointer is better in long heather, otherwsie a small one can do the same job on the low ground. What is a 3lb goshawk good for, except for breeding smaller males?

Must be an awful lot of bloody fools out there flying these monsters as nobody seems to be able to give me a straight answer.

[OutFlying]

Jack, I wasn't referring to size but traits i.e Finnish having a better temperament. Do you think it is possible to breed a line of goshawks to produce a certain trait ? This is the point I was trying to put across (maybe badly) not that you pay just for the size. Of course a goshawk doesn't need to be 3 lb to catch most things but that's the size of the strain of the finnish goshawk and without them larger males wouldn't be possible.

[Jack Merlin]

Do you think it is possible to breed a line of goshawks to produce a certain trait

In theory, yes.

In practice, no.

I would have thought you'd have to devise some way of rearing/training/flying them under identical conditions and then measuring the qualities you are seeking to select for. That is what I have attempted to do here with pointers by running on whole litters, watching them work, and line breeding for the last 40 years.

I learn fairly early on not to rely on field trial results or the opinions of others! The big problem, of course, is that training pointing dogs to the highest standard is almost a lost art; the problem is to find people who can actually train a dog, let alone a pointer!

I suspect that situation is rapidly developing in falconry where the majority are not capable of attaining a very high standard or even want to. Most will be happy if they actually catch something and never mind how that is achieved.

Sorry, I was born a cynic... :(

[OutFlying]

In theory yes, what about the few thousand years of breeding in Finalnd before they where imported in the 1970's - surely different traits evolved in goshawks in different parts of the world. This would explain the different characteristics of different strains of gos - would it not ?

[M & J Raptors]

:lol:

[Jack Merlin]

How? Please explain what different selection pressures are at work here.

[Wightwings]

dont wish to be a stick in the mud but i thought this was a classified ad section?

I debate like this should be in the shortwings window surely so everyone intrested can get involved?

just a thought?

[OutFlying]

can you move it.

[OutFlying]

How? Please explain what different selection pressures are at work here.

There must be certain factors affecting them to explain the different size and color for instance. This would be govern by temperature and location.

As I am not as educated as yourself Jack, I always thought that an animals surroundings would have a bearing on its behaviour. This behaviour over generations would then become a trait. I know you don't seem to believe a finnish gos is any steadier than any other goshawk but its what I've found to be the case. These birds are bred from a small gene pool and seem to produce very similar gosses.

[Jack Merlin]

These birds are bred from a small gene pool and seem to produce very similar gosses

Bang goes selection then.

[M & J Raptors]

:finga:

[Wightwings]

booked a male fin today and to be honest didnt even bother to ask about weight.......i know the breeder up in bristol, i,ve seen his birds, i know they are good stock and i have heard ALL the right comments. I had aFHH off him last year she is very nice. The gos might com out at any of the above weights i dont really care.

Can ANYONE please explain what a 2.1 gos can do that a 1.12 gos cannot?

Why o WHY is everyone pushed on weight? dont get me wrong im not digging at anyone i have been in the same trap myself and tried to believe big is better. is it?

[OutFlying]

booked a male fin today and to be honest didnt even bother to ask about weight.......i know the breeder up in bristol, i,ve seen his birds, i know they are good stock and i have heard ALL the right comments. I had aFHH off him last year she is very nice. The gos might com out at any of the above weights i dont really care.

Can ANYONE please explain what a 2.1 gos can do that a 1.12 gos cannot?



Nothing, providing both are conditioned right.

[Wightwings]

:D thanks :wink:

[M & J Raptors]

booked a male fin today and to be honest didnt even bother to ask about weight.......i know the breeder up in bristol, i,ve seen his birds, i know they are good stock and i have heard ALL the right comments. I had aFHH off him last year she is very nice. The gos might com out at any of the above weights i dont really care.

Can ANYONE please explain what a 2.1 gos can do that a 1.12 gos cannot?



Nothing, providing both are conditioned right.

if they were the same size physically ie 2 identical birds, i would fly the 2.1 gos,

[Finnish]

if they were the same size physically ie 2 identical birds, i would fly the 2.1 gos,

Me too! But i am pritty sure you will get a very good Gos of Don.

[M & J Raptors]

Yes lee he will, don has some nice birds, i was merely stating that the 2.1 gos would be fully fit and conditioned to cope with the most difficult type of quarry, the 1lb 12 bird would not,
i sold 2 males a couple of years ago, both siblings, and same stature, one went to a good gos man and the other went to a weekend hawker, one flew 4 ounces heavier than the other, guess which one ? good falconers make good birds, good birds don't always make good falconers.

Mick

[Harris.Hawk]

Hi have joined this thread late but if these birds are out of Harry Gilberts line then they are good birds. I have flown one of Harrys males and he was devestating at 1lb.14oz though this was a social imprint I flew him for 5 seasons and he just got better each year he was brilliant at pheasant and duck over a dog. He is down for breeding now.
Harris.Hawk

[Finnish]

I no what you ment Mick. :) My thought's are the same.


Cheers Lee

[Wightwings]

if they were the same size physically ie 2 identical birds, i would fly the 2.1 gos,

Me too! But i am pritty sure you will get a very good Gos of Don.

had two birds of Don to date a FHH and a MHH (actually off Chris and full brither to one you had i think Finnish?) both good birds. Saw his Gos' atthe time and knew i wanted one then!

Dont profess to be a Gos man only ever flown a F German for a season. Certainly a novice on bloodlines so dont really know what lines Don has should i be asking??

some great info guys thanks

[Wightwings]

good falconers make good birds, good birds don't always make good falconers.

i agree mick and its a decision i considered very deeply. Had birds for long enough now to feel i can do a good job. I see you a Sussex lad im in Chichester.

[OutFlying]

if they were the same size physically ie 2 identical birds, i would fly the 2.1 gos,

Me too! But i am pritty sure you will get a very good Gos of Don.

had two birds of Don to date a FHH and a MHH (actually off Chris and full brither to one you had i think Finnish?) both good birds. Saw his Gos' atthe time and knew i wanted one then!

Dont profess to be a Gos man only ever flown a F German for a season. Certainly a novice on bloodlines so dont really know what lines Don has should i be asking??

some great info guys thanks

Wightwings, flown 2 male finnish gosses bred from Bristol by Chris, both were good specimens. 2 friends also fly gosses bred by him, both decent birds. All seem to be placid and calm, easy going.

[Finnish]

Wightwings, flown 2 male finnish gosses bred from Bristol by Chris, both were good specimens. 2 friends also fly gosses bred by him, both decent birds. All seem to be placid and calm, easy going.

Jim mate, Chris and Don are cousins, they both got really good stock. Don's birds are half his and Chris's, Don has also got his own stock which are outstanding birds. The same as Gary who has his own stock as well, so the Bristol blood line is pretty good. Mick will tell you that. Jim i mentioned you to Chris the other night and he can remember you well. I told him what you wrote in a thread about his Goshawks and he said thanks Jim, its not just the breeder its the blood line as well. 8)


Cheers Lee

[OutFlying]

Lee, I knew this - that's why I replied. My outlook on life is if your sold good stuff then praise, if your sold poor quality - give the person time to sort it out, if not sorted then let everybody know. Chris does produce good gosses.

[OutFlying]

On the original thread quoting 2-1 parent finnish male goshawks first or any season - have you seen one fly at this weight ? The highest successful constant weight I've seen in a parent reared male is 1-15 ish (just below) - flown 6 times a week.

[Finnish]

No i dont no anyone who has flown a p/r gos at that weight .But Don flies his male p/r gos at 1 14, flown 5 or 6 times a week. :)

[OutFlying]

The male I had from Bristol ended up 1-14 3/4 November second season, still going up but hit wire fence and was killed. At this weight would return to glove without food. Came out the avairy at 2-3

[Finnish]

Like we said Jim good stock.....

[OutFlying]

oh yes

[M & J Raptors]

good falconers make good birds, good birds don't always make good falconers.

i agree mick and its a decision i considered very deeply. Had birds for long enough now to feel i can do a good job. I see you a Sussex lad im in Chichester.

A sussex lad ? perish the thought :lol: no derbyshire lad born and bred and pround of it. :D

[OutFlying]

then moved away :lol: To be closer to nature.

[M & J Raptors]

then moved away :lol: To be closer to nature.

home sweet home :(

[OutFlying]

I'm surprised you found it with your geography knowledge. Must have been the yellow brick road :shock:

[M & J Raptors]

:butthead:

[OutFlying]

good one

[Wightwings]

A sussex lad ? perish the thought no derbyshire lad born and bred and pround of it.
oops sorry OF i meant to aim that comment at HH.

I live down here butonly for last 5 yrs. Oldham lad myself.

[OutFlying]

Lancashire myself. Accrington now Oswaldtwistle via Plymouth, Portsmouth, Helensborough.

[Wightwings]

Accrington....know it well the missus is from Bury lived near Ramsbottom(love that name) for a while. looks like your more of a nomad than me

[OutFlying]

Armed forces

[Shaun Byrne]

Armed forces

"Well shiver me timbers matey" :D

Me too!!

[Wightwings]

oohh no Navy boys ??? pmsl.......i have jobs on all the main bases down the south coast so SORT of a forces connection....... :lol: :wink:

[Gos]

i have one of gary almeida finish males and he is p/r and hunting at 1.15

[Jazz]

its acording to how you fly the bird that predicts the proper flying wait

[Natch]

hi jazz r u male or female what r u flying :weedman:

[Jazz]

hi natch i am flying a gos and u can guess the rest :lol: :lol:

[Natch]

i live in bristol do i know u
:minigun:

[Natch]

waiting
:P

[Jazz]

i think u might :oops: :oops:

[Wightwings]

the bloody suspence is killing me..............

[Hawkmaster]

Gary, the little symbol at the bottom of the avatar, shows it is a lady.

[OutFlying]

nobody seen a 2-1 p/r male yet

[M & J Raptors]

you never will, if so give me a shout and i will be out in the field watching it fly, having said that outflying how many Gosses or gos men like to fly in company, ? maybe most are shy or full of bullshy, if someone Bragg's that their gos is flying at a unbelievable weight or its taking some incredible flights, then we bring a pair of scales watch them weigh it, then smile has the excuses come flooding out, too high, too low, too sunny too dull, too many dogs, too early, too late, too much bull, Internet gos men, :lol: don't you just love em. :oops:

[OutFlying]

I know exactly what you mean. Even though this weight is unimportant to what the gos can actually achieve - if people are quoting these weights, at least be able to confirm them or demonstrate in company. I know and you know a male doesn't need to be this size but if people are quoting these weights for sale value then someone is going to be disappointed .

[Finnish]

nobody seen a 2-1 p/r male yet

So i take as a no then :!: :!: :!:

[M & J Raptors]

imprint yes, pr no, that's why an imprint is more stronger and powerful than any PR , even more in company,

that should put the cat amongst the old pigeons :finga:

[Gaz]

Kes,ya ba***rd :mrgreen:

[M & J Raptors]

have you seen our Jud, forgot to put bet on, spent money on chips and some beef for our kes.
hes bloody mad, :evil:

[OutFlying]

don't look in the bin when you get home Billy :shock:

[Hawkmaster]

Ahhh, poor lad, I know one like that too. . . .

[Gaz]

"PG,HOG,SOW...YA DRUNKEN BA***RD,THA DONT LIKE TO BE CALLED A BA***RD DOES THA?"

Lot to answer for that bloody film :twisted: :mrgreen:

[Jack Merlin]

that's why an imprint is more stronger and powerful than any PR

I suppose you could always spend the time you spend imprinting the imprint in manning the p/r, then they should be the same. Or have these old falconry skills become lost??

[M & J Raptors]

been there done that, till someone shows me a PR Gos that can fly like an imprint, ill keep doing what im good at,
any takers :lol:

[OutFlying]

Providing you can put the time in and have the land / game available, with a couple of seasons behind them - I don't think there will be a great deal of performance difference between imprint and p/r male gos. It will never be as heavy as an imprint no matter what manning you do - they are a complete different hawk to a p/r but can't say the extra couple of ounces are definately a great advantage when flying at game. Both can and do take gamebirds for fun.

The good p/r will still need a weight reduction to be flown in strange company and most likely the good imprint wouldn't need a reduction. But it depends how much you want to / or need to fly in company.

[M & J Raptors]

"PG,HOG,SOW...YA DRUNKEN BA***RD,THA DONT LIKE TO BE CALLED A BA***RD DOES THA?"

Lot to answer for that bloody film :twisted: :mrgreen:

Best film ever made, well i thought so age 12, bloody great our billy,

[M & J Raptors]

cats coming out too play :twisted:

[OutFlying]

don't hurt my pigeons

[Jack Merlin]

What is this new book of McDermott's? I heard it explains all the problems of imprints. It sounds as if there must be quite a lot of problems to make a decent sized book!<g>

Nobody has been able to explain the sudden neurotic nervousness that developes in some imprints that were apparently perfectly imprinted. I now know of at least three cases and, God knows, I am pretty remote from other gos owners. One had to be returned to the breeder.

Any more out there? Or is it a genetic quirk? All the cases I know of were allegedly Finns.

Don't know about flying imprints heavier than parent reareds, but if my tiercel had been flown any heavier last season, he wouldn't have got off the ground. He smacks the fist every day for his grub now and I can barely feel his keel. I'd suggest its how you train 'em.

Hate to throw the old books at you again, but Bert had his passage hawks going to anyone who would hold up a hand when a pheasant put in. And if they didn't put up a fist, the hawk would land on their head!

Indian/Pakistani falconers have their passage hawks similarly manned. I asked my Sikh falconry adviser about this and he said if a gos would not come down out of a tree when called, the whole village would turn out to laugh at the falconer. Their birds have to be perfectly manned if they don't want to be ridiculed. So looks as if it is a training problem.

How long does it take to imprint a gos? A month? How many spend a month intensively manning a p/r, 24/7?

[Tim Laycock]

How many spend a month intensively manning a p/r, 24/7?

Not many I'll wager, but the ones that do are the ones that are watched from afar and people say "he's a bloody good gos man him you know!"
They point and say "he realy knows his goshawks"
"I wish mine was that well behaved"

[M & J Raptors]

jack anybody seen this male of your fly :lol: apart from yourself, why not bring him to a field meet, next season, and let someone else judge him, just like the rest of us do :wink:
internet Gos men, dont you just love em,

[M & J Raptors]

How many spend a month intensively manning a p/r, 24/7?

Not many I'll wager, but the ones that do are the ones that are watched from afar and people say "he's a bloody good gos man him you know!"
They point and say "he realy knows his goshawks"
"I wish mine was that well behaved"

and which and whos gos would that be,?

[Tim Laycock]

I wasnt realy refering to any one gos in particular.
But since you ask it would be rude not to offer an example.
The best gos I have ever witnessed both in the field and out of it belonged to the Northern england falconry club, One among a number of passage birds brought in from hungary through a contact given to the club by John Buckner.
After arrival they were distributed among club members,trained and hunted prior to putting down for breeding.
One hawk (a male) stood out immediatly both in and out of the field.
His keeper was unemployed at the time and spent practicaly every waking hour with his hawk, It showed.
The hawk did all you could expect of it and more in the field and was as steady as any imprint I have ever seen.
I dont believe the falconer was trying to gain cudos by spending so much time with his hawk but he certainly did!

[M & J Raptors]

I wasnt realy refering to any one gos in particular.
But since you ask it would be rude not to offer an example.
The best gos I have ever witnessed both in the field and out of it belonged to the Northern england falconry club, One among a number of passage birds brought in from hungary through a contact given to the club by John Buckner.
After arrival they were distributed among club members,trained and hunted prior to putting down for breeding.
One hawk (a male) stood out immediatly both in and out of the field.
His keeper was unemployed at the time and spent practicaly every waking hour with his hawk, It showed.
The hawk did all you could expect of it and more in the field and was as steady as any imprint I have ever seen.
I dont believe the falconer was trying to gain cudos by spending so much time with his hawk but he certainly did!

Blackbird

Flew a female from the same batch, from rob rushton, killed loads of stuff with her and in 7 seasons she killed over 1000 head of quarry, 2lb 1 oz flying weight, **** hot an rabbits but very poor on game, she killed 14 rabbits in Scotland in an afternoon, this was in 1992, i was all numbers then, :D
but not a patch on imprints on feathered game, look for quality now not quantity,

[OutFlying]

Was that around the same time everyone in Derbyshire had rabbit skin coats ? :supz:

[Tim Laycock]

**** hot an rabbits but very poor on game, she killed 14 rabbits in Scotland in an afternoon, this was in 1992, i was all numbers then,
I can appreciate this is your experience, but this is not my recollection of how this particular male performed.

Rob is a good lad isnt he! (bit of a hair dresser :lol: ) :D

Was that around the same time everyone in Derbyshire had rabbit skin coats ?

Very droll OutFlying, I like it! :lol:

[M & J Raptors]

Blackbird

Who was flying the male ? and when, was you in a buggy, :lol:

[M & J Raptors]

Was that around the same time everyone in Derbyshire had rabbit skin coats ? :supz:

No outflying, we used to get £1.50 each rabbit back then, with 14 a day, it just about paid for my beer money, :roll:

[Jack Merlin]

jack anybody seen this male of your fly apart from yourself, why not bring him to a field meet, next season, and let someone else judge him, just like the rest of us do
internet Gos men, dont you just love em,

Why should I be interested in the opinions of others? And when did falconry become a competition?

I have lived a long and interesting life and I have nothing I need to prove to you or anyone else. I doubt you will ever have the chance to enjoy similar experiences because the world has now changed.

[M & J Raptors]

i will take that has a no then, :oops:

[Shaun Byrne]

:D :D :D

[HawkNorth]

i agree with h4wka lol

im getting a gos this season

[M & J Raptors]

Hi hawknorth, who are you getting it from, also male or female.pr or imprint,

[HawkNorth]

hi B C a falconer northern ireland john carmichael hopefully a male. pr

[M & J Raptors]

thanks, best of luck with him,

[Jack Merlin]

i will take that has a no then

"No" to what?

Will I be driving hundreds of miles to pay to hawk with members of a club I don't belong to when I have my own ground, with far more game, on my own doorstep? No, I don't think so.

I have many faults but I am not as stupid as some who travel half the length of Britain to catch rabbits -- and then say that rabbit hawking is boring! Now THAT is stupid!!<g>

[M & J Raptors]

Heh Jack, if your so a PR gos man, why do you fly an imprint, :oops:

[Tim Laycock]

Gareth Shaw (Another good lad from the NEFC)has flying the male and no I wasnt in a buggy I had managed to take to my legs by then(Yawn!) :roll: :lol:

[M & J Raptors]

BB is the NEFC still active ? what Gosses have you flown in your long falconry life. :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

Mick,

Thanks for jogging my memory. I had forgotten the gos you flew here was another huge female returned to you as being yet another neurotic. That makes four. Sounds like something is wrong with the breeding. Inbreeding depression? That could do it.

I still do not understand the reasoning behind these huge goshawks and I thought, as you consider yourself such an expert, you would explain. No one replied to my question why anyone would want to lug around a three pounder when a two pound German female would do everything the bigger one could do, and with a lot more dash and style?

There was mention of "steadiness" but as you are an enthusiast of imprinting, that shouldn't be a problem, should it? Or have I got that wrong too? Personally, I always did like the hyper temperament. Choice between a cart horse or a race horse. Give me the latter every time!

I was told you need the big females to breed the big males. But if a smaller female will do the job of the bigger male, where's the advantage?

OK, so the smaller races of goshawks will produce small males that are too small to take cock pheasants and rabbits, but what about corvids, partridges, woodcock, etc? They will fly a wider range of quarry with more style than a big lump of Finn! Like trying to course hares with an Irish wolfhound!<vbg>

Looks like you have a problem there, unless you have a lot of guys who can follow you around the countryside wanting ooh-aah birds and telling each other what a great thing it is to have an absolutely HUGE goshawk like yours. As I've said, the emperor's clothes syndrome.

Look at the header, Mick. This thread is about huge male goshawks so please don't try to change the subject to evade the question. Anyway, I thought you had given up on the insults? That resolution didn't last long. did it? But then perhaps you find the questions embarassing?

[M & J Raptors]

Jack

The thread was huge fin males ? you changed it with stupid personal insults,

has stated we have seen several imprinted males flying at 2lb 1oz but nobody has seen a PR bird at that weight, so i think we have established imprints fly heavier that PR gosses, but only you seem to think otherwise,

jack don't embarrass yourself even more like you did on the thread with outflying questions over Berts eyasses, if wasn't very nice for you was it,

right since i have it a nerve again, :lol: why do you fly an imprint :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

has stated we have seen several imprinted males flying at 2lb 1oz but nobody has seen a PR bird at that weight, so i think we have established imprints fly heavier that PR gosses, but only you seem to think otherwise,

So what? Can you please cut-and-paste where (quote) "only you seem to think otherwise" (unquote).

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Maybe you are getting a bit confused. Please try and explain again.

[M & J Raptors]

Calm down jack, don't get wound up so easily :lol: its only a bit of fun, just passing time in between insemination's,

hows the Gos breeding going ?

[Tim Laycock]

Yes the NEFC is still active(thats why we advertise our meetings in the falconer every month.

I too am forced to ask why you are asking me questions wrapped up in a bouquet of condescention as it were?
Is my age an issue for you :?:
Then answer me this: -
Is a chap of 26 years, 20 of them as a practicing falconer any less deserving of respect than a man of say 46 years with the same 20 years practical experience? (I refer to no-one in particular)
with reference to the Goshawks I have flown, A german male and a ger/fin female.
There is no need to try and ridicule me for my age and experience, If we were face to face it would not be wise, So please dont laugh at me from behind a keyboard either.
I have nothing but good will for all persons on the forum so please dont turn my screw when you have no cause to do so :!: :?

[M & J Raptors]

Yes the NEFC is still active(thats why we advertise our meetings in the falconer every month.

I too am forced to ask why you are asking me questions wrapped up in a bouquet of condescention as it were?
Is my age an issue for you :?:
Then answer me this: -
Is a chap of 26 years, 20 of them as a practicing falconer any less deserving of respect than a man of say 46 years with the same 20 years practical experience? (I refer to no-one in particular)
with reference to the Goshawks I have flown, A german male and a ger/fin female.
There is no need to try and ridicule me for my age and experience, If we were face to face it would not be wise, So please dont laugh at me from behind a keyboard either.
I have nothing but good will for all persons on the forum so please dont turn my screw when you have no cause to do so :!: :?

BB

My post concerning age wasn't condescending, i merely wanted to know how a chap your age has so much experience on Gosses,
in fact one of the best gos lads i know is younger than you, your right their is many with 40 years experience and still know nowt,

not sure what you mean face to face, but is that a threat, ?

[Mary Quite Contrary]

[glow=red:9805e6fcc5]Bloody hell!!!![/glow:9805e6fcc5]


IT ALL LEADS TO THE SAME [glow=red:9805e6fcc5]ROAD[/glow:9805e6fcc5]

[Tim Laycock]

There is no need to try and ridicule me for my age and experience, If we were face to face it would not be wise, So please dont laugh at me from behind a keyboard either.

Not a threat simply a statement.
I dont make threats as it is beneath me to do so :|

[Jack Merlin]

is that a threat?

Sounded like good advice to me. Back in the days when I ran a sporting agency, I always carried a gun. Lot's of people do when out shooting.

Some times I'd be asked if I was shooting too. My reply was that I carried it for self defence. Nothing threatening in that, nor in BB's remark that I can see. Just the truth.

You really do have a confrontational attitude, Mick, when all we want is a few straight answers to the questions we pose to you, "the expert".

Why so evasive? Unlike you, I reckon I can learn from anyone, even if it is another strange and interesting facet of human behaviour!<g>

BTW, how do you define an imprint?

I've learnt from this group that a passage hawk is one that has been out of the nest (we used to call it an eyrie back in the olden days) for "4 to 6 weeks". I'd have thought that was barely into dispersal and not "passing" anywhere, but I am here to learn.

[M & J Raptors]

sorted by PM

[M & J Raptors]

Jack

never confessed to being any expert, but if you think i am that's nice :lol:
its not me that's bragging my male gos, ?
has for not answering questions jack, we are still waiting for the one from outflying, :oops:
now then jack why do you fly an imprint, ?

[OutFlying]

Jack quote -" I've learnt from this group that a passage hawk is one that has been out of the nest (we used to call it an eyrie back in the olden days) for "4 to 6 weeks". I'd have thought that was barely into dispersal and not "passing" anywhere, but I am here to learn.quote - "

I can't work out if this a dig at myself or a genuine post - I've always been led to believe a passage hawk is one trapped anytime (not from the nest though :D ) during its time in immature plummage - I might have been wrong and if so then please expand on the subject of passage goshawks. Where would a uk gos go on passage rather than just disperse ?

I also want to learn as much as possible, but at the moment it seems that any posts are being treated as hostile and not a lot of straight answers are forth coming from anyone.

From reading Harry McElroy's Desert hawking he states that the eyass coopers are to be prefered to the passage coopers and states he disagrees with Bert's views on the passage hawk. He goes on to quote Glasier and Stevens as stating an eyass's will perform to the same standard as passage birds.

[Jack Merlin]

I also want to learn as much as possible, but at the moment it seems that any posts are being treated as hostile and not a lot of straight answers are forth coming.

Then I suggest you go back over your own posts and review the ones where you fired a series of questions at me like Perry Mason, all at the prompting of our silly illiterate friend. That is not to your credit.

There are a few things that are guaranteed to get my back up. First is sneering at knowledge and the reading of books -- especially from those who haven't yet managed primary level spelling. Second is not defining clearly what things mean, so we all know what we are discussing. Third is changing the subject to evade the issue. Fourth is assuming the person on the other side of the discussion is mentally retarded. Except, of course, that we all make allowances for Mick.<g>

If you want to know who defined a passage hawk as one that was 4 to 6 weeks out of the eyrie, the best thing would be to go back and look at past posts.

Some words are used loosely. We talk about "hawks" but that also includes "falcons" and, as we all know, the word is not restricted to the accipiters. "Passage hawk" is generally taken to mean, as you say, a bird in immature plumage, not necessarily "on passage", though it could be argued that a bird passing from place to place, as in dispersal, is "on passage". If you want to go down that road, you are going to have to define "passage" and "passing".

Before you quote Ronald Stevens, be aware that he was a personal friend of mine and we not only corresponded almost weekly over a decade or so but I stayed with him in Ireland on numerous occasions. There is no doubt in my mind that he preferred pasage hawks -- when he could get them. I am also a close friend of his protege, Geoff Pollard, who used to fly nothing but passage hawks, until the supply dried up.

No one is denying (even Bert) that eyasses can (not "will") perform to the same standard (or even better) than passage birds. It just takes them longer, and more work, to achieve the same standard -- and not all are going to make it.

[OutFlying]

Jack, Its quite hard to post a reply on this topic without raising hackles, but here goes. The quote from Ronald Stephens is also in the article of the falconer 2002 edition of the BFC 75th Book, when describing the peregrine unit he ran during the war. I don't have personal knowledge of him as yourself and what he wrote and believed may be be different - I can only quote his comments from an article.
The 4-6 weeks out the nest was an example if one was to be used today, if you wanted to get a gos ready for the season this would be the amount of time the passage would have been on the wing before an eyass was ready to hunt to any standard.
Your right it wasn't to my credit to reply in that "tone" and maybe I took offense to parts of your replies.(wrongly or rightly).
When Bert described the faults in eyasses as being screamers, feather damage and other faults - I still believe that these were taken as either large downies or branchers and were a sort of malimprint, and due to the fact there wasn't captive breeding maybe some of his comments regarding eyasses weren't as true today as they were then. If Bert had access to a 9 week old captive bred goshawk and applied his knowledge to it then maybe his observations may have been different, but we will never know. If I'm wrong on the type of eyasses he had available then I quite willing to be put right on the matter but the problems he mentions with eyasses - I've never seen in a parent reared hawk only imprints.

Yours Outflying.

[M & J Raptors]

Jack

I'm absolutely ****ing myself with laughing here, well done haven't had a good laugh for ages, to think that a so called intellectual man an author of several books has to resort to personal insults because he has made an absolute fool of himself in front of the world, its just amazing, but it does show the measure of the man.

keep smiling jack and don't let the outside world ground you down, like an old Scottish friend of yours said a couple of months ago when i visited him
you have been a bachelor too long :lol:

[OutFlying]

Jack, Its quite hard to post a reply on this topic without raising hackles, but here goes. The quote from Ronald Stephens is also in the article of the falconer 2002 edition of the BFC 75th Book, when describing the peregrine unit he ran during the war. I don't have personal knowledge of him as yourself and what he wrote and believed may be be different - I can only quote his comments from an article.
The 4-6 weeks out the nest was an example if one was to be used today, if you wanted to get a gos ready for the season this would be the amount of time the passage would have been on the wing before an eyass was ready to hunt to any standard.
Your right it wasn't to my credit to reply in that "tone" and maybe I took offense to parts of your replies.(wrongly or rightly).
When Bert described the faults in eyasses as being screamers, feather damage, footing and other faults - I still believe that these were taken as either large downies or branchers and were a sort of malimprint, and due to the fact there wasn't captive breeding maybe some of his comments regarding eyasses weren't as true today as they were then. If Bert had access to a 9 week old captive bred goshawk and applied his knowledge to it then maybe his observations may have been different, but we will never know. If I'm wrong on the type of eyasses he had available then I quite willing to be put right on the matter but the problems he mentions with eyasses - I've never seen in a parent reared hawk only imprints.

Yours Outflying.

very quiet.......... :?: