Geese?

[Gary.B]

What chance of a FHH taking a Greylag Goose? The fields up here are absolutely full of them during the winter. And they taste very very nice too.:tonqe:

[Wightwings]

pmsl.......dont know myself Gary but the HH seems to get more versatile by the day :D

I suppose its possible but would wonder about her agility. Had a friends Fem have a seriuos go at a swan once............she flies in the opposite direction when she see one know :lol: :lol:

[OutFlying]

female hh at geese, you may be lucky and catch one but I think you'd find it mighty difficult to repeat. So if your planning to do a season on them, change your plans now.

[Wightwings]

good advise

[ColdZero]

this guy has caught one with his MHH http://www.onlinefalconry.com/harris.html

[OutFlying]

cold zero - one swallow doesn't make a summer :lol: hawks will take on anything when young but experience soon cures this.

[ColdZero]

good point, but i just like that article, it makes MHH sound so good :). It must be pretty old now so maybe he has caught geese again?
Persoanlly trying to kill a goose would be fairly tramatic, as much as i hate them the flapping would be horrible :(

[Wightwings]

i refer back to my earlier post to confirm Outflyings comments.

once bitten and all that.

[OutFlying]

When flying a hawk, the first consideration should to find an even challenge which presents an even chance of success and failure without placing your hawk in danger. Flying small hawks at geese doesn't fall into this category, what damage could a goose due to your hawk before you finally get to it. To me this type of flying would be more like you catching the goose - as you hawk hasn't a hope in hell of managing it itself.

[Moritz]

A friends FHH called Jade caught a gooselast year and she goes for every goose she sees now, she is about 5 or 6 years old and quite experienced. She caught it in flight about 10 feet above the ground, the gees where just about to land and we where hunting rabbits. She managed a good head grip. I think she could have finished the goose without my friends help.

Cu Moritz

[WireHairedPointer]

A friends female gos caught some gees, so a FHH should be able, too. But the problem with gees is that the other gees of the flock come to help theire mate and could sereously damage your hawk

[OutFlying]

As you say your hawk could be seriously damaged. But look at the whole picture- your flying to catch a huge prey that is struggling to take off. Other than the hawk showing bravery, how does it produce a sporting flight ?
If your flying a gyr to take one down in flight , I can see the attraction but to see a hawk bind to a goose that is struggling to get into the air doesn't hold a great deal of interest.

[Gary.B]

Thanks for the advice, it was just a thought, I had visions of the flock taking off for the Arctic Tundra with my bird in hot pursuit!

[Wightwings]

would have been a sight to behold....lol..

[Goran]

OutFlying, sport or not it is game meat on my table in a fair hunt.

[Harris.Hawk]

A friend and I were walking a river in Bedfordshire 6 years ago with a friends female Harris and my Coopers hawk when his bird bolted from the fist and bound to a canada goose that was swimming further up the river, it was more like a battle than a hunt as the goose was trying to dive and drown the hawk. My friend had to go in after his bird in the end and secure the goose in freezing cold December weather, he kept it in his freezer for about a year so he could show people what his bird had caught. The moral of this story is if you are going to fly geese make sure they are not swimming at the time :lol:
Harris.Hawk

[OutFlying]

OutFlying, sport or not it is game meat on my table in a fair hunt.

Goran, Each to their own. I could feed a family of four from what I could kill - wouldn't make a good viewing though. But would save on the butchers bill :lol:

Not being able to take off - is this a fair hunt ? or a mugging ?

[ColdZero]

most pheasant are caught when they are just taking off aren't they? how is it different for a goose? which is more much more powerful. Although i have to acontradict myself by saying they are slow so not very spectacular if not given a sporting chance, but they taste so good as i found out at xmas.

I will certainly try one with my MHH when i get it.

[OutFlying]

most pheasant are caught when they are just taking off aren't they? how is it different for a goose? which is more much more powerful. Although i have to acontradict myself by saying they are slow so not very spectacular if not given a sporting chance, but they taste so good as i found out at xmas.

I will certainly try one with my MHH when i get it.

No most pheasant aren't caught just taking off, yes easy ones are but they can be caught in flight. Let me put it another way - if you were to fly a rabbit, would you prefer to fly one that is running away or one that is sat still ? wouldn't the one that provided the good chase with a result but better than the sitting target ?

[WireHairedPointer]

that is the spirit of falconry, we do not hunt to get as much as possible in the bag, we go out to enjoy the great flights, the competition betwen hawk and quarry.
the best flights I could remember where those wehre the quarry got away but the bird tried very hard.

[Harris.Hawk]

Posted: Today at 1:32 pm* Post subject: *
------------------------------------------------------------------------that is the spirit of falconry, we do not hunt to get as much as possible in the bag, we go out to enjoy the great flights, the competition betwen hawk and quarry.
the best flights I could remember where those wehre the quarry got away but the bird tried very hard.

I quite agree with the above statement but are we forgetting when we first started out flying our birds most of us were only interested in what we caught! Only as we get older and more experienced do we begin to get more selective and appreciate the flight more than the outcome. A novice who is trying to get as many kills as possible for his young hawk really doesent care how the bird took the quarry just as long as it DOES take the quarry. I know for myself I am no longer interested in big bags at the end of the season, numbers mean very little to me now but they certainlyt did once, if they didnt my hawks would not have been any where near as good as they were. I know everybody is not the same and this is just my own opinion.
Harris.Hawk

[WireHairedPointer]

I agree with you, a young hawk needs as much kills at possible to develop good hunting skills and fitness, that is the key to good style falconry. But when you want to kill as much as possible than you are not in the right sport then you should use a gun or even piosen.

[Harris.Hawk]

I agree, there is no need to murder everthing in the field and if you have a good bird then give the quarry law and look for the good flight. Its not the kills I remember when I look back, its the flights if this ever changed for me I think I would give up falconry. What we have a spate of at the moment in my area are lurchermen who have decided to get harris hawks, but they still have the lurcherman mindset, and this in my opinion can only be very bad for falconry in general, as they just do not seem to understand that the essence of falconry is not about what you come back to the car with at the end of the day.
Harris.Hawk

[ColdZero]

i agree, although i am very inexperienced i don't care about how many rabbits a gos can kill etc if the flights are boring and unsporting. However, if i saw a goose in my field i wouldn't stop my hawk having a go, because they are excellent food and its quite an accomplishment for the hawk to be brave enough to tackle such a large animal. Just my novice opinion, it changes often too.

[Harris.Hawk]

As regards flying geese I personaly wouldnt fly them as I feel whatever shortwing you use you are overmatching your bird. When you overmatch your hawk you are not being fair to either the hawk or the quarry. One of the most important things about being a responsible falconer is respect for you quarry and no falconer wants to see any animal needlesly suffer. If you go out on any field meets you will notice very few of the top falconers get any pleasure from the actual death of an animal and I myself in fact release quarry wherever possible if I can get in quick enough to make sure it is not damaged by the hawk, this is only possible of course with experience hawks as all youngsters need to feed up off the kill.
Harris.Hawk

[Goran]

Falconry is hunting with a trained BOP.It is illegal to shoot waterfowl when in the water.It has to be in the air, 10 or 1000 feet, with or without use of a dog.Is it fair to take sparrow with a RT or a f Gos?I would take geese over a sparrow any time but will not mist a flight on a sparrow.Taking game in their hunting season with a legal method is OK with me.Challenging flights are nice to see and is making birds better.Wild BOP will never take some flights we make our birds do.This is why 75% of wild birds die in their first year.No experience.If they survive they kill only easy game animals.No waste of energy and no chance to get hurt.If you trap a RT with many bite marks on its feet, this is one to keep.If my bird is crazy to tackle a goose, turkey or a squirrel I will be there to help as fast as I can and will stop suffering of a caught animal.

[OutFlying]

I agree, there is no need to murder everthing in the field and if you have a good bird then give the quarry law and look for the good flight. Its not the kills I remember when I look back, its the flights if this ever changed for me I think I would give up falconry. What we have a spate of at the moment in my area are lurchermen who have decided to get harris hawks, but they still have the lurcherman mindset, and this in my opinion can only be very bad for falconry in general, as they just do not seem to understand that the essence of falconry is not about what you come back to the car with at the end of the day.
Harris.Hawk

Harris Hawk, I agree with most things said, with the exception of lurchermen mindset - to brand all lurchermen bad or unsporting is without foundation or just cause. Yes the 2 dog slip men and poachers are / were bad for the sport of coursing but many lurchermen take their sport as seriously as we take falconry. Spoken as the son of a lurcherman who has practiced the sport of hare coursing for over 30 years, the same rules apply "it's the quality of the chase not the kill that is important", but you must start the chase with the purpose of catching the quarry.

[Harris.Hawk]

outflying
I appologise I didnt intend to insult anyone with my posts if I did please forgive me. I did in fact breed and run lurchers for some years when I was a teenager and you are quite correct in what you say there are lurchermen out there who are great sportsmen.
However round my area at the moment are guys driving round the lanes throwing harrises off out the window at game feeding my the side of the road in areas they have no permission to be, they used to do it with lurchers now its hawks, and the farmers are now looking suspiciously at anyone with a hawk. But I now realise that my previous post was an unfair generalisation and I once again appologise.
Harris.Hawk

[OutFlying]

Not a problem HH, but as my father now has 2 dogs and an illegal hobby - just thought I put a view out. Poachers give anyone a bad name whether with dogs, gun, hawks or even a fishing rod. :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

I find old books interesting so apologies to anyone who doesn't! There is an account of goose hawking with goshawks in Turbervile's Book of Falconrie.

After a course of entering on bagged geese, the falconer is advised to use a stalking horse to get within 100 yards or so of feeding geese. He then slips his hawk and just before it gets to them, he shows himself so the geese take wing. Seems they are easier for a hawk when the geese are on the wing! Then he jumps on his horse and rides like hell to assist his goshawk as the rest of the flock will turn on the hawk and it could be injured. He says that several kills in a morning ought to be possible using this method. Sorry if I posted this before. Just thought someone might be interested.

[OutFlying]

Very interesting Jack, a very thorough method to obtain the right result.

[Goldie]

glad to see you two have made up :prayer: :prayer: :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

I agree with most things said, with the exception of lurchermen mindset

Lurcherman, eh, Outflying?

I had two pups from the late Ted Walsh sired by one of the top coursing greyhounds in the country out of Ted's good bitch. Both were good on hares and roe, though the dog was really too big for hares. Those who say using a dog on roe is cruel do not know what they are talking about. The dog would have them down and their necks broken quicker than a rifle bullet will stop them, with no wounding. Sadly, the dog died of liver collapse but the bitch was an alrounder. I gave her to the son of one of the top guys in the old Nature Conservancy up here. That lad was in his mid teens and became notorious for poaching deer and hares with the dog left right and centre<g>. I have always been rather proud of corrupting the son of one of Britain's top conservationists!! But as he is now a doctor of biology or some such, I suppose it all turned out OK in the end!<g>

[OutFlying]

No not me, my father. He has taken roe deer by mistake in the fog once. He travels down to the fens to get the long courses at hare, or did. The land round here can't produce the big courses due to the small fields but as a lad I accompanied him out for 10 years locally - took fox single handed above ground and plenty of hares. Only ever runs bitches for last 20 years or so.

[M & J Raptors]

:heart: :heart: :heart:

[Jack Merlin]

Done the fox killing with lurchers and terriers. The man for that up here was Nicky McNicol. His best fox dog was a lab cross lurcher. I had problems with foxes here. They were in large patches of gorse, impossible to get at. Nicky brought his team out (two lurchers and a couple of terriers) and we went for a stroll. Soon the dogs started barking. "They've got one", says Nicky. Sure enough, the fox was dead as quick as that. Could not have killed that fox any other way, except maybe poison. Nick was a legend here in the north. I did an article about him for Countryman's Weakly. He reckoned the McNicols were the hit men of the Highlands back in the past and he was proud of it. Want someone knocked off? Call up a McNicol!<g>

[OutFlying]

The local farmer brought round a full cut up lamb for the fox removal services. Many people attempted to buy that dog but he wouldn't sell it - killed itself running into a single fence post sticking up in a field. The foxes where dispatched nearly instantly and the first time I saw it was surprised how easily a fox could be killed. None of this rip to bits **** quoted by the anti's, maybe the hounds rip them up but it will be dead long before this.
As a young lad (11 ish) I remember taking my Dad's greyhound / deerhound cross out out one Sunday afternoon, and catching my first fox. When walking home remember the reactions of people seeing a young lad walking down the street with a dog lead in one hand and a fox over my shoulder.

[Jack Merlin]

a young lad walking down the street with a dog lead in one hand and a fox over my shoulder

Try that these days! :(

In my youth, there was a meet every day within cycling distance of my home by one pack or another, sometimes two. I did a similar -- going home on the bus with a fox's mask, all bloody and no bag to put it in! Got a lot of admiring comments too! You could stop in the street where a couple of men were digging a hole for a sewer or electric and ask, "Can you hear 'em?", and get flashed a dirty great grin. They knew exactly what you meant and at the weekend most would be out digging foxes or badgers with terriers.

Saw 11 roe out this morning after the night's storms. Looks like I am going to be busy.

[Gary.B]

Jack, my german shepard nearly took a roe the other morning, lucky for her she out jumped him, much to his disgust, he had a good go for an 11 year old. Did you get plenty of the white stuff yesterday then?

[Jack Merlin]

Did you get plenty of the white stuff yesterday then?

Thank goodness, I am nearly at sea level so haven't had more than 4 inches in all the time I've been here. (That's at one time, not collectively!<g>). But friends up the hill said they had a dose. Just a covering here.

When I lived in Glenlivet we got 26 inches one year and it stayed for six weeks. Another year, the builders were working on my house with their shirts off -- next day there was six inches of snow and roads blocked. That was early JUNE!!

The worst we've had here was temperatures down to nearly 26 below (that temperature recorded at Altnaharra, up the road a spell).

Welcome to Caithness. How did you fare? I gather it has been a bit breezy up north recently!<vbg> I was up your way a week ago and fancy moving up but it is a hell of a way from Inverness.

[Gary.B]

We had a fare bit of wind from the north with a couple of inches of snow in the village and it hardly got above freezing all day, then the wind came round from the west at midnight the temp went up to about 7 and the good old rain came on. I've been on night shift so I've been in bed during the worst of it.
We love Caithness, we moved up 3 years ago from Surrey, the wifes parents are Wickers, we'd never go back now. The distance from Inverness can be a problem sometimes like Xmas etc luckily with we can internet shop. We go down to London once a year so the wife can get her shopping fix. Once is once to often for me.
Maybe oneday when your up this way you can call for in for a cuppa and chat, I should have my bird in the summer and the wifes wanting a gsp bitch for the following season. I'd like a clumber spaniel don't ask me why!

[Jack Merlin]

Yes, it is the wind up north. Spent my evening in a high seat and never saw a single deer. What we do for fun, eh? Now trying to thaw out...

[Gary.B]

Yes, it is the wind up north.
Thats why we've got no trees....... :)

[Jack Merlin]

You want to go out to the Western Isles. I was out there for two years. There really are no trees out there. And the rain is horizontal. :(

[Gary.B]

Jack, I noticed a picture of Hugh with his pointer on your web site is he a friend of yours?

[Jack Merlin]

Jack, I noticed a picture of Hugh with his pointer on your web site is he a friend of yours?

I gave him some help with the initial training of his pointer but have lost contact recently. His dog was used to demonstrate how the line of pigeons technique is used to get a dog to point in my video "Bird Dog Basics".

[Ben C]

This is always a contentious issue, but a certain amount of 'number crunching' must count in the first year or so. To deny this is foolish because to an extent, numbers equal successful kills, equals confidence.

Now obviously there will be variables, and bad habits may be formed, but in balance a good hawk has to make a strong start, and bolstering its personality with a healthy number of kills is important.

Too many times the beginner is told that the flight should be heralded as the holy grail and so the performance of a beginners hawk (like mine) is ignored. Sniffly dismissed by 'proffessionals' or those with more experience. When in fact it should be encouraged and given the merit it deserves. And also explained that it is merely a STEPPING STONE from which to progress.

Fantastic flights come with time, paitience and an understanding of the hawk you are flying. This comes from spending time in the field and cementing a relationship by sharing a decent number of kills. If numbers are not important apathy, in terms of a hawks performance, becomes common. How many birds are dismissed as poor because they only caught a few rabbits in their first seasn? Quite a few I would imagine.

Only if the expectations of the beginner is high enough will this change. One way to measure this is with a healthy number of kills with a few good flights thrown in. Rather than the other way round.

However I am not an expert just happy with my hawk....so shoot me down as you wish :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Benc

That makes a whole lot of sense to me and nothing i would disagree with.
I would say your comments are spot on.

I know of a F Harris that didn't take a lot in its first season because of lack of confidence of the handler,
The following season with someone behind the falconer and good advice from people who actually wanted to see the bird and falconer move forward this bird had over 40 kills and it really did wonders for both parties. Now this bird is in its 4 season it is a very steady well mannered bird that flys great and above all knows what it is in the field for.

Regards

[Gary.B]

Isn't every flight fantastic for the beginner, successful or not?
I think it depends on what you expect from your bird, personally just getting out on the hill with my dog and bird will be satisfying enough, if we get a kill its a bonus and not to be expected every outing.

[OutFlying]

Isn't every flight fantastic for the beginner, successful or not?
I think it depends on what you expect from your bird, personally just getting out on the hill with my dog and bird will be satisfying enough, if we get a kill its a bonus and not to be expected every outing.

Maybe not achieved but it should be your aim to catch everytime.

[Ben C]

The benchmark has to be what it would do in the wild, how it would do it and then build in the human element. Finese and style comes from showing your hawk how much ya love it :lol: :lol: :lol: And I love my hawk by helping it kill stuff.

If I can't get my ****** to slope soar next year I am gonna look like a right tit for expounding such pearls of wisdom eh :oops: :oops: :oops: