Stupid questions about flying to a kite!!

[Harris.Hawk]

Hi
This is very probably some bloody stupid questions but I have no experience of flying to a kite at all, could someone explain to me:
What species are flown?
What advantages are gained by flying to a kite, I can see how a falcon would mount high and fast, but what is the advantage of a shortwing is it just fitness or is it a training aid to slope soaring?
How is the bird is encouraged to fly to the kite in the first place?

[Hawkmaster]

I think most of this has been covered but in short, it is something like this.

Mainly falcons, but gosses, RTs and HHs too.
Fitness, mainly other than teaching falcons to gain height BUT most important is a great recall tool for lost birds.
With shortwings I would say only fitness as I would not want to slope soar with one, but I am sure there are people that do.
USe the lure to teach it, increasing the distances as you would on the creance.

HTH?

[Falconry Equipment International]

Hi
This is very probably some bloody stupid questions but I have no experience of flying to a kite at all, could someone explain to me:
What species are flown?
What advantages are gained by flying to a kite, I can see how a falcon would mount high and fast, but what is the advantage of a shortwing is it just fitness or is it a training aid to slope soaring?
How is the bird is encouraged to fly to the kite in the first place?
Hi HH the only stupid questions in anything in life are those thought about, but never asked! :roll:
My experience in kite flying goes back about 10 years( including selling many hundreds of kites & kits and writing articles in both specilist mags , but also national newspapers, even international newspapers & before that baloons but they are even more hassle! Now, in answer to you q's
a)species flown have been Gos , haris , pere , merlin & pere hybrids
b) I would say fitness slope soaring still has to come from 'within ' like falcons making 'pitch' introduce the kite in early stages of training to preventy fear of kites. hope this helps

[741HCR]

the only stupid questions in anything in life are those thought about, but never asked!

What a damn fine saying that is! I must remember that one.

[Falconry Equipment International]

Hi HCR as one whom has over 30 yrs experience both in the world of BOP ( as a falconer) and in the world of horse (as a Master Saddler & Harness Maker) + learning/ writing texts of one sort or another I am afraid I no not the author but " the more I learn, the less I know " how true and what a humbling experience life is!!!!!!!

[Red Sheridan]

Blimey, now it's only 30 years + whereas it started as 40 years experience when he came onto the forum. Scuse me while I swoon.............................. :butthead:

Yours suspiciously,

Red

[Falconry Equipment International]

Blimey, now it's only 30 years + whereas it started as 40 years experience when he came onto the forum. Scuse me while I swoon.............................. :butthead:

Yours suspiciously,

Red
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: RED YOU FYI THE REASON WHY I POSTED THAT I HAVE 30 YRS KNOWLEDGE WAS DUE TO THE FACT THAT I HAD BOP FOR ABOUT 10 YRS BEFORWE I ENTERED THE WORLD OF SADDLERY WHICH INCIDENTALLY I DID OVER 30 YEARS AGO .

[OutFlying]

SJ, take a deep breath, and have a drink. Don't let it get to you.....

[Hawkmaster]

Hey, what is all the FUSS?
Come on guys, relax, and do the right thing now!
Paul

[Wightwings]

hey SJ, red has a great habit of goading sometimes........i used to get SOOOOO wound up about posts ( not reds others)but in truth after a little break away i really just laugh me "nadgers" off now.

in fact YOU nearly got me going the other day remember ( broken wings and things etc :wink: ) but soemtimes you have to read the post deeper.

and laugh :lol: :lol: :roll: :wink:

[Varmint]

Isnt how long you have been doing the sport a nerve hitting experience anyway? it really makes me laugh how everyone has a bead on how long they have been doing Falconry, often to the month!

I know folks who have been flying for 40yrs+ and i wouldnt let them hold a Kestrel, and others with less than 3 yrs whom i rate amongst the best?

It's not the time spent but what you have learned along the way?

Walk the walk guys! and chill.....

[Wightwings]

:supz: :yawinkle: :goodman:

[Falconry Equipment International]

Isnt how long you have been doing the sport a nerve hitting experience anyway? it really makes me laugh how everyone has a bead on how long they have been doing Falconry, often to the month!

I know folks who have been flying for 40yrs+ and i wouldnt let them hold a Kestrel, and others with less than 3 yrs whom i rate amongst the best?

It's not the time spent but what you have learned along the way?

Walk the walk guys! and chill.....
Hi Varmit as you will be aware , both by my comments at the beginning of this thread and on other threads, I have said as much myself & therefore agree with what you say and also at the end of the day, you, I or even Red sheridan et al can/ could tlak the talk, but it is not what is important, what is is what happens out in the field, nothing to do with computers etc,( this is not running anyopne down, least of allVarmint, or even Red Sheridan.
One thing I can empathise with RS is that without meeting the person at least/ seeing them handle/ fly their hawks, field craft etc etc how can anyone be fully sure with length of time/ amount of experience and/or aptitude and a certain depth of knowledge & undestanding that will only come with experience and the ability to continue to assimilate information.
Also at this point I wish to apologise publicly for my outburst last night.., my excuse is that I had my 1st hayfever tablet of the year( my better half says untilo I am used to them for a week each year I am far worse than anyone with PMT!!) & it does turn me into a Jeckyl & hyde character for a week or so . I have to take these wretched things until mid August now :?
No doubt in my out burst I came across as arrogant and uncouth for which I also apologise. I hasten to say that the moderators seem to have been amazingly supportive & understanding & I most certainly have not been pressured to post this.
so once again , including RS Sorry, I could have quitre easily posted back to you politely
yours in sport
SJ

[Jack Merlin]

It's not the time spent but what you have learned along the way?

"Experience is proportional to intensity, not duration" -- Thomas Hardy.

[Jack Merlin]

Are there any (human) fitness enthusiasts here?

I am not sure I fully understand the logic of the kite for fitness training. Oh, I understand that a bird will get fit, but is it the "best" method?

I have also been wondering about jump ups?

Surely a goshawk, for example, uses its legs as much as its wings to jump from the ground to the fist? It also uses its legs and back muscles when (for example) pulling at a tiring. But how many use tirings?

If I can remember my physics correctly, energy = work X distance. Is that right? Anyway, the energy required to lift a 20kg weight two metres high is equal to the energy required to lift 40kgs a height of 1metre. Correct?

Applying that logic, I have a light chain that I clip onto the swivel of my gos, so when I call him off he half lifts and half drags the chain. He can't drag the entire length of chain very far so I don't use a leash or creance.

Seems to me this is a great way to get a hawk fit without spending a longer time giving more jumps or to a greater height.

It might be an idea to attach a weight to a hawk that is flying to a kite, so increasing the energy expended, but I can't think how this could be done safely.

Just a few random thoughts.

[OutFlying]

Jack, I not so sure its that simple. When use to cycle competitively, the training involved wasn't how fast you could go but more based on duration with medium intensity, the duration of the exercise being as important (if not more so than the work load).

My thoughts on kite training a gos are a big no on 2 accounts.

First if you've the time to fly it to the kite, you've time to fly it at game. Fitness achieved with success at game will reap greater rewards than fitness achieved by artificial means.

Second it will introduce an element in the gosses flying style which is not pleasing to the eye (only my opinion and some may prefer it) - that instead of the gos flying low and flying at full speed looking to take the game bird from below - they will gain height in the flight and fly at a reduced pace looking to take on the put in. A friends gos flies in this style, catches a lot but its not pleasing to the eye.

These comments are for goshawks not falcons.

[Harris.Hawk]

"First if you've the time to fly it to the kite, you've time to fly it at game. Fitness achieved with success at game will reap greater rewards than fitness achieved by artificial means.

Second it will introduce an element in the gosses flying style which is not pleasing to the eye (only my opinion and some may prefer it) - that instead of the gos flying low and flying at full speed looking to take the game bird from below - they will gain height in the flight and fly at a reduced pace looking to take on the put in. A friends gos flies in this style, catches a lot but its not pleasing to the eye."

This seems to me to be a very sensible observation, nothing can get a gos fitter than flying at game. That burst of accelleration must surely use muscles that are untouchable by any other training method. I also agree that such training measures may encourage a gos to fly like a HH ie taking game on the put in instead of outflying it.
Thanks for everyones input on this subject things are a bit clearer now although I never intended to start a bundle with this thread :oops:

[Mary Quite Contrary]

I agree with jack, having done physical sports all my life there has to be something there to work the muscle fibers.

For instance if i wanted to train my leg muscles so they get the best possible work out i need to shock the muscle. If you think your legs take the weight of you and absorb shock when you walk and run etc. If you need to shock them you are going to have to do continuous walking or some short hard exercise with weights.

Not that putting a pair of lead boots on your Gos is going to do it any favor's. My opinion is that a bird needs more endurance than strength training. This means means high controlled repetitions of things with a minimal weight such as a rope or chain. Or some very intense luring which will tax the muscles into shock.

The trap door method also works well. it is similar to the shelve method used by nick fox.

Anyone have a spare wind tunnel you can lend me ?? :D


Feed your bird on the kite to start with. This conditions the bird to look for food when it sees it.

[OutFlying]

Not that putting a pair of lead boots on your Gos is going to do it any favor's. My opinion is that a bird needs more endurance than strength training. This means means high controlled repetitions of things with a minimal weight such as a rope or chain. Or some very intense luring which will tax the muscles into shock.

Wouldn't flying it at game for a couple of weeks varying the degree of difficulty of the slips, some easy some difficult bring your gos into a condition good enough to fly anything.
Seeing your gos panting on the top of his prize takes some beating. With a kill comes the confidence to go that extra bit, no artificial training will accomplise the same results.

[Red Sheridan]

Goodness me! It's good to talk.

You said > If you have a problem, say it< So I did, but you didn't like it!
Then you went and called me a flippin twit.......... such language! Incidentally, I used to be a ****ier as you so nicely put it but then I got married.

And as for WW - well how could you be so cruel as to say that I have a great habit of goading sometimes? Me?...................Never :yawinkle:

Have a nice day.

Red :D

[Hawkmaster]

Derry I see where you are coming from and I do agree to an extent. The only thing is to get say a falcon going initially one can't go and attach weight as it needs to be a gradaul increase the muscles and body take on.

As this increase in excerse startes to work the internatl fat starts to be used up as fuel and there afterone can start to employ this tack and I do think it is a good one that I am going to do myself again this year attaching small weight to the back pack.

[Red Sheridan]

Incidentally SJ, I accept your apology. I did as you advised and went off to wink myself but now I seem to have two aching eyelids and blurred vision!

Red

[Falconry Equipment International]

Incidentally SJ, I accept your apology. I did as you advised and went off to wink myself but now I seem to have two aching eyelids and blurred vision!

Red :yawinkle: :yawinkle: :rolleyes: :lol: :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

Gentlemen, I am proud and so are the other forum members I am sure?

Thanks for doing the right thing!

PAUL

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Not that putting a pair of lead boots on your Gos is going to do it any favor's. My opinion is that a bird needs more endurance than strength training. This means means high controlled repetitions of things with a minimal weight such as a rope or chain. Or some very intense luring which will tax the muscles into shock.

Wouldn't flying it at game for a couple of weeks varying the degree of difficulty of the slips, some easy some difficult bring your gos into a condition good enough to fly anything.
Seeing your gos panting on the top of his prize takes some beating. With a kill comes the confidence to go that extra bit, no artificial training will accomplise the same results.

Yes outflying i totally agree, but we are talking about artificial means of obtaining fitness or a obtaining a desired behavior.

But what you say wins hands down for proper exercise as no one slip is the same and you cant judge what will happen next so it is a mental and physical action for the bird.

Gets me exited even thinking about it. :yawinkle:

[OutFlying]

I was highlighting the fact that if you've time to fly a kite etc, you've time to fly the gos. Even with the same level of intensity and duration (artificial or natural flight) - a flight with a kill will benefit the gos greater in fitness, flying skills and confidence more than building muscles doing other activities i.e fist jumps, restrained pursuits, kites etc.

I can see in the winter months with bad light and weather that other methods are required but for me, flying at game is the best. Even if it costs you a fortune in lost working hours and ear ache off the wife..........

[Jack Merlin]

I correspond with a very experienced gos man in the USA. I know enough to know when someone knows what he is talking about and this man does!<vbg>

Last season he told me his gos was going up 300 feet to the kite. To me that is pretty impressive. This guy catches grouse with his gosses and considers wild pheasants rather tame!

Another gos man, equally experienced and here in the UK, introduced me to the dragged chain. It works for him and it works for me. But once the hawk is fit, I don't bother.

Similar methods are used to get working dogs fit. Pals of mine run sled dogs. Mushers don't usually run their dogs during the summer because they are not heat tolerant. This guy started running his dogs on forestry tracks at dawn (around 4am up here) when its cool, pulling a wheeled rig. Last season he cleaned up winning all the local races!<g> I know greyhound men who have their dogs dragging old car tyres. Nothing can beat the real thing, but sometimes it is not possible, e.g. game may be out of season.

In December 2003 I under-went major surgery and my tiercel gos was not flown for over a month. He was on the trolley and can fly, backwards and forwards, about a dozen yards each way. As soon as I had made a reasonable recovering from being sliced up, I got out with the gos. Remember, he had had no exercise apart from the above for over a month.

Well, he caught a wild January hen pheasant the first day out, in the air, at 200 yards. The next day he was not flown because he had been gorged on the kill. On the third day he flew another hen 100 yards to cover, then on the re-flush took it at 100 yards, again on the wing. That rather blew away all my theories about fitness!

I agree about confidence and always aim for a kill every few flights. On my ground, if a pheasant hits cover, it is a lost pheasant -- unless I let the dogs re-flush, which I won't do if its a hen but will do if it is a cock. There is no possibility of selecting flights here. They are all wild birds and they know all about goshawks!

Just about the stupidest thing I ever saw was someone throwing ex-layers out of a crate for a goshawk. After three flights, it was easy to see the bird was hanging back just waiting for the put-in. One very nice goshawk spoilt by stupidity.

[Falconry Equipment International]

I am not sure I fully understand the logic of the kite for fitness training. Oh, I understand that a bird will get fit, but is it the "best" method?
Hi Jack, I have used the kite for flying broad, short & longwings but I have to admit to flying the former 2 for a different reason to longwings. the former 2 where initaially as an experiemnt as in '96/97 I had never heard of anyone doing this and got a certain level of fitness out of them after the moult and before the begining of the season therefore using it as part of my enseaming process and actually do the same with longwings but with them I employ kite training for psycological reasons and motivation with them as well . I have to be honest and never really perservered with the former 2 as my beliefs seem to be much the same as both outflyings and yours. Incidentally I used a similar system to your 'trolley sytem in the early 90's withy F gosses, but was a lot more basic that yours, heavy 4" ring that I tied the leash to + 2 bows ( blocked off so that hawk could not get caught up by going under bow) about 15 yrds apart, joined by handbrake cable, with the heavy ring being dragged along longish grass ( 2-3" long)
It is my belief that you can get a game hawk too fit ,after all we only want the hawk to make thir pitch, then most of the flying is done and of course it is well known that stooping a falcon to the lure is an excellent w method of fitnes trasining and in fact with red hawks I tend to stoop the n**ts of them in a 1st flight, rest them for 1/2 an hour & then kite fly them for all their reward/ day's ration the other reasons I kite fly longwings is to help falcons lear techniques in more breezy conditions for getting above ground turbulance or down drafts and also for the safe return of falcons taht have been awol for up to 48 hrs( longest I hav elost afalcon for and had their safe retiurn by this method.
hope this allmakes sense