Burst crop?

[ColdZero]

When i had my hawk i once fed her an entire rabbit, but was warned not to do it again because they may eat too much and burst their crop. Is it obvious when this happens, so you can immediately go to the vet or is it more subtle? I assume its the former.
How common is it that they eat so much they burst their crop? to be honest i thought it quite unlikely, or it would happen in the wild....or maybe it does happen often in the wild? :shock:

Any experience of this would be great.

[IAmTheWeasel]

Here is a picture of what happens when the crop bursts....and no, I have never heard of them busting it from eating too much....that's an un-thought out comment as they routinely do it in the wild. They eat as much as they can fit in their stomach and crop and fly off to digest and then come back for more. My RT used to crop up as much as she wanted every few weeks to keep her healthy. The only way the crop is going to burst is if there are sharp bones in the crop that puncture it while it is packed solid. This happened to me when my bird ate most of a 4ft copperhead snake.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/Iamtheweasel/Torncrop_IMG.jpg

[Hawkmaster]

Damn! Never seen that before!

[Bash]

I've never seen it neither. Thanks for pic as Weasel

[ColdZero]

ouch. How serious is it? might be a stupid question but is it just a matter of stictches, or is there something else to think about?

[OutFlying]

Coldzero, you run a big chance of your hawk developing SOUR CROP when feeding such large amounts in one go. Why would you want to feed a hawk such an extreme amount of food in one go ?

[Finnish]

That does not look nice :shock: at all.

[IAmTheWeasel]

Coldzero, you run a big chance of your hawk developing SOUR CROP when feeding such large amounts in one go. Why would you want to feed a hawk such an extreme amount of food in one go ?
As long as the bird is in good health, then the crop should not go sour. Sour crop is most often caused by dehydration as they cannot digest the food without fluid to soften it in the stomach or poor health can cause it, such as being too low condition where they don't have the energy to put over the crop. I regularly crop my birds up at least once every two-three weeks during the hunting season so they don't become anemic from staying low for too long (not saying I hunt my birds too low either) The RT's I have flown all cropped themselves up until they where full(sometimes as much as 11 ounces), then they stopped and left the rest of the carcass. They maybe food sluts, but they won't eat themselves to death either.
Coldzero, To answer how serious it is....Well, I was scared sh**less when I saw the tear! :wink: I drove to the vets office strait away and he did not seem overly concerned about it for the time being. He told me to let the bird put over the crop first and then he would look at it. So two days later, he looked at it and said to try let it heal on it's own. 90% don't heal on their own, but he said it is worth the try as surgery is the next option. They would have to stitch up two layers, the crop wall and the outside skin.
The wound ended up healing up fine and I just had to feed her small quantities at a time until it healed completely. I then tested it by cropping her up with about 7 ounces of beef heart and it was fine.
Cheers,
Weasel

[IAmTheWeasel]

I think the worst part about it was seeing food fall out of the hole in her crop....she would see it and re-eat the food..... :vom:

[OutFlying]

It seems a few people over this side of the water have had problems with sour crop when feeding to maximum. As I said why do you need to gorge a hawk this much in one feeding ? What are you achieving ?

[ColdZero]

we had a really good day, and i knew i couldn't fly her for 3 days so feeding her up couldn't hurt, so i dragged the rabbit for her and let her feed up. I don't see how this can be bad since this is what they do in the wild. What did i acheive? she went for rabbits like a mother trucker after that :D

[OutFlying]

what weight gain did you see ? then what did you have to do to get it back down again ? Are we talking a good sized crop or a crop filled to capacity ?

When tracking a friends gos down on a kill and his transmitter battery died, by the time we found her she eaten a massive amount of pheasant - this food was still present in the crop 24 hours later. I don't know how long it takes to go sour but it seems a long time to be in the crop before being put over. This crop wasn't at a maximum as it was still eating when found.

maybe the vets on the list can advise ?

[Bubo]

thanks for that piccy weasle. i must admit i did wonder if bones could tear anything and you have just answered that question. that is pretty amazing.
bubo

[ColdZero]

she ate as much as she could, but didn't get any organs (suprisingly-but it was her first whole rabbit) and only gained 1/2oz max by the next day. All the best bis of the rabbit were kept and fed that day.

[Shaun Byrne]

she ate as much as she could, but didn't get any organs (suprisingly-but it was her first whole rabbit) and only gained 1/2oz max by the next day. All the best bis of the rabbit were kept and fed that day.

1/2 oz a day after being gorged to capacity on rabbit???

I should check your scales mate.

[Hawkmaster]

CZ try rat just worked a treat on that Gyr/Saker and now seems to be back to normal, oh and also used a giant hood.

[OutFlying]

she ate as much as she could, but didn't get any organs (suprisingly-but it was her first whole rabbit) and only gained 1/2oz max by the next day. All the best bis of the rabbit were kept and fed that day.

1/2 oz a day after being gorged to capacity on rabbit???

I should check your scales mate.

I think this proves it wasn't a full crop then :roll: A full crop even if rabbit would put your hawk up a couple of ounces easily.

[IAmTheWeasel]

Maybe he is flying a Kestrel

[Goldie]

:lol:

[IAmTheWeasel]

BOP are designed to pack the crop.....How many times have you given a large portion to your bird and it stops eating at half a crop? Non I suspect. I have seen my RT take three days to put over a full crop. no problems with sour crop. Now, if I only gave her a small portion of food and it took that long to put over, then I would be a little more concerned.
Remember, nobody takes their food away from them in the wild when they have a partial crop :wink:

[OutFlying]

Forgot to ask " what size of rabbits are you hunting ?".

Seriously though -When you fly your harris do you weigh it when you finished feeding it, what is its daily requirement of rabbit to maintain it weight (approx 4 ounces ? don't hunt rabbits so not 100%) - I would think this is about average to maintain a hawk, then you feed it as much as possible approx 9 ounces, this will put weight on your hawk and then you got to take it off to get it to fly again, this is in 3 days - so you miss a day and you will still have to reduce further. Just feed to get a good crop without going to an excess, would be my advice.

[Bill]

. Just feed to get a good crop without going to an excess, would be my advice.

What do you actually base this advice on? Have you had problems letting healthy hawks gorge?

[Kevin Massey]

i have had no problems myself letting my hawks crop up, infact i made it a point to let the do so at least twice a week while i was flying them hard.

weasel.......i know you said the hawk ate a snake, but what made it split the crop?......it looked horrific, is the hawk ok now?

kev

[IAmTheWeasel]

It was the needle like vertabre of the snake....we think.....She could of banged it inside the Giant hood, the snake could of bitten her before I got there as she had it in the midsection.....any one of those could of done it, but the vet and I suspect the vetabre of the snake as they are literaly like needles.

[OutFlying]

. Just feed to get a good crop without going to an excess, would be my advice.

What do you actually base this advice on? Have you had problems letting healthy hawks gorge?

I based it on someone saying that there harris ate a full rabbit, Bill I've fed my hawks good quantities of food but not to the extent of its crop bursting. For example 2 rabbit back legs or a cock pheasant leg and breast - these give the hawk a good enough crop size and do not send the weight sky high. What quantity of food and what weight increase are you experiencing ?

Never had a problem with a healthy hawk gorging but I maintain the intake, I was under the impression the posting was directed at eating to the absolute limit of the crop.

[ColdZero]

oh that was supposed to be 1 1/2 oz :oops: , still not a lot though. But, like i said there were no organs so it was just the meat around the ribs etc. She had already eaten many titbits of chick.

Anyway, my question has been answered now. Thanks :)

[Mary Quite Contrary]

i have had no problems myself letting my hawks crop up, infact i made it a point to let the do so at least twice a week while i was flying them hard.

weasel.......i know you said the hawk ate a snake, but what made it split the crop?......it looked horrific, is the hawk ok now?

kev


how about the snake is it ok!

[IAmTheWeasel]

If I could find his head, I would ask him.......still looking :lol:

Here is what was left.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/Iamtheweasel/Hunting/Copperheadsnake_IMG.jpg

[OutFlying]

like it 8)

[RabbitHawker]

The main risk of gorging is in a low hawk, that is more at risk of sour crop. The crop should be empty within 12 hours of feeding or the meat will go off as it is kept at body temperature. Sometimes too much casting can contribute to this as it binds the food together. Rabbit should not be too much of a problem with weight gain as it is a low calorie food, but a full crop would contain approximately twice the normal ration for my fit and well flown birds, so they would not be fed the next day if to be flown the day after that, so thay would have gained more that 1/2oz, especially since it is likely that there would still be food passing through the intestines

[ColdZero]

You have got me wondering if i remember her weight wrong or something now....she always had a fast metabolism and was flown 7 days a week so burnt a lot of energy, but is 1 1/2 oz still too low?

[IAmTheWeasel]

Well, It depends on the bird you are flying, the quarry it ate, the temperature outside and the metabolic rate that the bird was already at to name a few variables. I have cropeed my bird up and she has only gained a few ounces in twenty four hours. The next day she was back at hunting weight. Basicly, it depends on the caloric content of the food she was fed and how fast her body was used to processing the food she was given. During hunting season I try to get her metab into high gear so she will pass about 4-5 ounces of food a night. Now, If I did not feed her for a few days, then she would slow her metab down and I would be able to get away with only feeding her 2 ounces a day to keep her at weight. I prefer the high metab as she is very active and in great shape from processing all the nutrients from the food.
So, to answer your question, a "full" crop(depending on your definition) could only add in 1 1/2 ounces of weight.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

If I could find his head, I would ask him.......still looking :lol:

Here is what was left.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/Iamtheweasel/Hunting/Copperheadsnake_IMG.jpg :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[OutFlying]

You have got me wondering if i remember her weight wrong or something now....she always had a fast metabolism and was flown 7 days a week so burnt a lot of energy, but is 1 1/2 oz still too low?

CZ, I'd say from 1 1/2 ounce up - that you'd given a decent sized crop not a crop bursting size one. With rabbits, the weight increase will depend on the age and quality of them - a nice mature winter rabbit with a layer of fat around its kidneys and back will send your hawk a lot higher than 1 1/2 ounces. A young early season rabbit or young gamebirds don't seem to raise the weight even when eaten in good quantities.