anybody fly their bird through the moult

[BrianM]

after all wild birds dont sit about all day till they grow new feathers


your thoughts please

[ColdZero]

i fully intended too with my hawk before she died, but i am not sure if i will next year with my new hawk. Nearly everyone doesn't, and they can't all be wrong.

[Goldie]

after all wild birds dont sit about all day till they grow new feathers


your thoughts please

Brian, depends wether you mean flying through the moulting season, or flying whilst they are moulting?
If the former, its not a problem as most display birds do this anyway by being kept at a tight flying weight and can even be put down to moult late in the year when displays etc. are finished.
If its the latter the the answer would generally be no. The simple reason is that to enable the bird to moult it requires to have good food and as much as it needs, so in turn you lose all control of the bird which defeats the purpose of flying it in the first place. Also flying etc .easily damages the new feathers that are still in blood.

[Coedhirion]

Depends on the bird and what you want to do with it. The Harris Hawks & Gos, we put down to moult so they come out feather perfect & ready to hunt in the Autumn. The falcon will be flown hopefully all summer. He is a first year bird. He will go into a moult chamber when we start hunting again. It is possible to revers moult if you wish.

[BrianM]

my 3 birds are in for the moult just now, but i caught sight of a spar tonight chaseing a blackbird and it planted the thought thats all

[Afshimo]

I'm flying my falcon through the moult, so she can adjust to flying during summer for displays. My next bird will moult during winter though.

[Bubo]

i am curious for those that do fly though the moult. Does a bird not need more food for energy during the moult if so how can you fly with a bird being heavier? or do i have it all wrong?
bubs

[Goldie]

i am curious for those that do fly though the moult. Does a bird not need more food for energy during the moult if so how can you fly with a bird being heavier? or do i have it all wrong?
bubs

Bubo, go back about 5 posts and all will be revealed :lol:

[North East Harris Hawker]

i suppose if you want to catch baby rabbits and lose sight of your bird every time it lands in a tree/on the ground then summer flying is for you!
.
personally i like to monkey around with bikes/cars/barby's/bits of wood/drink beer/go traveling rather than look for lost hawks!
.
if i had a falcon it might be a bit different tho 8)

[Dude]

Sure to fly a bird through the moult, but with a passage bird, its a nother story...I say u can fly a bird through the moult, but just hand reared ones,becouse u do not need so much conditioning....

In the wild they also hunt through the moult without any problem.....

regards,
Dan.

[Gaz]

i suppose if you want to catch baby rabbits and lose sight of your bird every time it lands in a tree/on the ground then summer flying is for you!
I agree...and another thing..RESPECT FOR YOUR QUARRY

[Matty]

i also agree with NEHH, if your flying a hunting bird
the last thing you want is your bird getting too used
to catching baby rabbits and raiding nests
LET YOUR QUARRY REGROUP and you will have
something to fly at next season

[Varmint]

Due to the nature of the business and the fact that most non falconers dont want to go out hunting in the winter, i fly around 20 birds thru the moult each year.

It goes without saying that all of these birds are at top weights and most moult whilst flying without incident, if you see the falcons i am flying in display , most of them have flown and moulted for several seasons this way.

It's important to remn that appetite enhancement initiates training, but repetition completes it, and my birds are in routine, so will fly better at higher weights anyway!

It's a real compliment that your bird pays you when it starts to moult normally with no feather abnormalities whilst it is being flown.

I overcome the Game thing by only flying over pointed game, 90% tends to be Buck Rabbits plus i have got several thousand acres to go at so i tend to use the ground that i cant hawk in winter weather (tops of mountains ect)!

[Bubo]

i am curious for those that do fly though the moult. Does a bird not need more food for energy during the moult if so how can you fly with a bird being heavier? or do i have it all wrong?
bubs

Bubo, go back about 5 posts and all will be revealed :lol:
:oops: :oops: :oops: damn that is so embarassing when that happens, i read posts a couple of times but only really see things the day after sorry guys ..... and i'm not blond :oops:

[Hawkmaster]

THREAD MOVED TO THE CORRECT PLACE :?

[Adam Barrett]

would you consider flying a young hawk during the moult after a very short first season?

Would the experiance and confidence that she could gain not compensate for the slight feather damage that may occur??

Just curious-probably talkin **** :oops:
Cheers

[OutFlying]

What are you going to fly at and where ? many farmers who are happy for you to hunt on the land in the winter are not as keen when young stock are in the fields. The cover will be higher, leaves on the trees, all the quarry will be breeding etc.

[Jack Merlin]

I started my male gos in July last year because I hoped to have a crack at red grouse (season opens 12th August).

Cutting his weight slowed the moult but there were no hunger traces. His train feathers grew slower and were about 12mm shorter, but otherwise he continued to moult normally.

All for nothing as the weather was appalling. Even those with peregrines were failing to get out to fly.

Grouse hawkers flying passage peregrines at game (as they used to) have to fly through the moult. Passage falcons are very slow to moult. I got centre spread in The Field one year and photos of passage hawks flying grouse with large gaps in their wings illustrated the article.

Fly through the moult? If you have the quarry and the hawk, why not? I hear of falconers flying perlins at snipe. How are they going to do that after the first year without flying through the moult?

[OutFlying]

by using artificial light to accelerate the moult.

[OutFlying]

also still catching snipe in late January.

[M & J Raptors]

Took the words from my mouth, OF,

[OutFlying]

and these falcons, one barbary and a perlin weren't flown till September.

[Jack Merlin]

Doesn't alter the fact that passage peregrines were flown at red grouse through the moult without problems. So why bother with the artificial light?

Have you read "Training the Short-Winged Hawk" yet, Mick? Maybe there is something in there about flying through the moult?<vbg>

[M & J Raptors]

no interest in bullshit, we are still waiting Derry, do not try to hide we will find you, :wink:
it getting embarrassing for you now Derry, cum on if you cannot help us with the questions, just say so, :oops:

[Jack Merlin]

if you cannot help us with the questions, just say so

OK. I cannot help you with your questions...unless I am paid. I've said so. My agent demands her 10%.

Does that give you the answer you require?

I take cash in any legal currency, credit cards, bank transfer, international money order, postal orders, and sterling cheques! Just send your money and pose your questions and I will be pleased to answer -- but only if I'm paid in advance!<g>

No money, no answers. Just read the book -- if you can. But can you cum up to the challenge, Mickey? Can you manage the joined up writing? THAT is the question! (I'm taking bets on the side, anyone -- please email me privately. Long odds!<vbg>).

[OutFlying]

Jack,
You seem to have change the thread once again to suit your own thoughts - the original thread was to fly a hawk through the moult, not to reclaim a hawk early from the moult. But it seems not to matter to yourself what the topic is as long as the answer corresponds to your own. Adam is this a harris hawk your talking about ? if so what do you aim to fly at during the summer months ?

OF.

[Ben C]

To be fair it may be possible to fly your hawk through the moult, but why?
Surely this is one area that doesn't really compare to the wild hawks we know and love. The moult is a massive transformation for a bird, and I think any hawk needs the time and space to rest and sort itself out. I've got a paper here about flight dynamics during the moult, the physiological changes include the blood vessels, muscle structure, and some bone as well as the feathers. Thats a tall order for a hawk even in the wild.

I can see WHY you would want to fly it through the moult, but with all this information I am not so sure its in the best interests of the hawk (I am saying this as an interested amateur so feel free to give me pointers if I am wrong).

[Jack Merlin]

Jack,
You seem to have change the thread once again to suit your own thoughts - the original thread was to fly a hawk through the moult, not to reclaim a hawk early from the moult. But it seems not to matter to yourself what the topic is as long as the answer corresponds to your own. Adam is this a harris hawk your talking about ? if so what do you aim to fly at during the summer months ?

OF.

You really must pay more attention at the back there!

Scroll back and see my references to flying passage peregrines at red grouse.

I have been asked to edit the diaries of an old falconer because he thinks his experiences of flying passage peregrines (which are often deep in the moult) imported from the Middle East at red grouse would be of interest to modern falconers. I am resisting because I don't think people like you want to learn anything -- which is why you remain ignorant and try to discuss books you have never read which is a really really silly thing to do.

You are showing a lack of maturity as the silent majority, who read but do not post, are coming to realize.

Edmund Bert discusses the moulting of passage and eyas hawks. You can buy your copy of the book through Ebay. Just do a search on "Falconry Book". Or click the link on my sig.

(Thanks for your usual help in promoting the book).

[Kevin Massey]

i dont fly mine through the moult, i never have so cannot comment on the pro's for doing so.
the reason i think i dont is because i feed up my birds on a varied quality diet, i personaly dont want to have to cut them back to fly them through the moult, i know they do in the wild but they aint wild are they, they are kept in artifical enviroments .

maybe over the years to come and i get to understand and learn more about these things i may change the way i do things different and experiment more ( i would like to see a topic opened though by those who use artifical lighting etc)......after all being a novice at falconry myself (only in my 5th year)......there are still loads of stuff to learn and loads of things to experiance and this will proberbly be one of them

kev

[Jack Merlin]

Kev,

I agree with you. Not advisable to fly through the moult if you want good feathers -- but it can be done.

If the hawk can be flown at a high weight and isn't likely to get its new growing feathers smashed up, there are no practical reasons why not from that side of things.

On the other hand, why do it? If you fly passage peregrines at red grouse, it is probably important to get them going on easy young grouse early in the season so they become wedded to you and the quarry -- so I'd say it is essential in that situation. There is no work-around. If a passage hawk is regularly disappointed, it knows only too well that it can fly off and catch something easier.

But for most other hawks, it usually isn't necessary and you are going to have to sacrifice optimum feather growth and run the risk of knocking out feathers in the blood if you keep flying.

Best to stick to the proper seasons -- even though some who post here do fly their goshawks at released September pheasants<g>. (No names, no pack drill -- wink, wink!).

[Adam Barrett]

hi OF,
yes we are talking about a young female harris-she was a late hatch and only had a very short first season so was unable to get the experiance that i feel she deserved.

the ground i will mainly be flying over is a rabbit riddled riding school where the young are allready about. the large rabiit population of these places and the open warrens posses a danger to the horses as you can well imagine.

so i can see that there are two benifits to be had-the hawk gaining experiance-and a reduction in the number of rabbits which is what the land owner wants.

thanks for the replies.

[Ben C]

I wouldn't do it, she will get smashed up and her blood feathers will hurt her........she is still young so she has many years to go.

I was also tempted to do it, but as I have said, I completely misunderstood the importance, and the huge physiological changes the moult brings. It just not fair on the hawk.

How little experience did she get? Are we talking a few mice?

ben

:) :) :)

Who the hell would fly their birds at September pheasants Jack....that is unforgivable. God you could just walk up to them, even I wouldn't do that and I hunt for the table......thats just bad falconry.

[Adam Barrett]

We are talking a few squirrels basically and a few miscollanious :roll:
She got on to squirrels very early in her flying carrer but have been trying to avoid them and look for more rabbits.
as i have said i now have the chance on a excellent piece of land that is very open so the tree cover should not be to much of a problem-especially if i keep mainly to flying of the fist??

[Ben C]

So shes had no rabbit at all? Now this is not going to be too popular with the die hards.....get some easy cover kills in first. Flying from the fist over open ground is quite hard and if she fails then your going to have a disheartend hawk. Don't worry what they say about style just yet, get it killing then sort out the style a bit later on.

I am not sure what to advise as I am no expert. But what I would do is leave her to get through her first moult quietly and happily. Catch a few little rabbits and feed them too her during the moult. Then take her back up, re-start your manning using whole rabbit carcasses, then go for easy cover kills. Use the moult time to drive about and find some land with rabbits and cover. Then ease out towards this superb field you've got.

I sympathise, it is frustrating if you havn't achieved what you set out to do in your first season....I know of one women who only caught a mouse!! So you are not doing too badly.

Ben

(remember I am not an expert so see what the others say, also ask your mentor)

[Kevin Massey]

Kev,


isn't likely to get its new growing feathers smashed up, there are no practical reasons why not from that side of things.



well that counts us out i couldn't say that she wouldn't....in the field hunting she is just wreck less...if something makes cover she still ploughs in...as they all do.
i spose its another one of them topics i am going to have to follow and listen to those that do...then make my assumptions

[Kevin Massey]

I wouldn't do it, she will get smashed up and her blood feathers will hurt her........she is still young so she has many years to go.



this was my concern......hence part the reason i have never done it.

kev

[Ben C]

Again it comes down to balancing the need of the hawk against the owner.

However if I had the skills and experience of Varmint and Jack Merlin than I could possibly do it.

I suppose adam its best to work well within your parameters and not stretch yourself and your hawk to breaking point.


Still wouldn't fly my Harris at pen realeased pheasants in september either.............pointless.

[Hawkmaster]

Guys thereis no reason to be worried about flying through the moult, provided your handling, mews and equipment are good.

Anyone can do it no matter what their experience is. Most beginners and take that however you want, as I feel I am new to almost everything evertime. But as someone that has flown for a while I like my resting period although I can't wait for it to start a month later.

Beginners just want to keep going and that is OK. Blood feathers don't just break it is how they break that is in question?

[Ben C]

How do they break then?.. :) ............I would imagine that it is down to chasing rabbits and tumbling in the dirt. Smashing into bramble, mantling over the kills. Slamming and skidding along the ground and then being pulled into a burrow. Normal hunting really. So surely its best avoided for the sake of the hawk???? :) :) :) :)

[Hawkmaster]

How do they break then?..
Improper handling, birds that are not steady enough or bating on blocks or bowperches as the leash cuts through the tail or when the wings beat into the ground. And there are loads of other examples I can give like in the mews etc.

Hunting does not really come into it, they do not hunt any different in the wild so why would they break any now that there is a falconer? He or his gear must be the cause. :wink:

[Ali]

during the moult period if the hawk or falcon hurt the part of the feather which is yet to be mature that place is gone for good there wont be no new feather on that place and even if a feather appears it wont be like a natural one we here also never try to be too clever in flying our birds while they are on moult due to a few other reasons too, at the time of moulting the birds body is also going through alot of changes so its better to ease yourself as well as let your bird have a relaxing time too:)
Ali

[Ben C]

Mr Ali, this is my point also. Could you explain further the few other reasons please.

HM the hunting situation do not replicate those of a natural situation, in terms of flying daily, and at quarry which is much larger than it would normally take easily.

The handling bit is an aspect I hadn't fully grasped, thanks :)

Ben

[Hawkmaster]

First of all Ali. I agree it is better to moult a bird and this is what I do. I also want to bring the point across to new people in falconry that it is not a bad thing or wrong to fly your bird during the moult, but it must be done correctly. Most beginners are still learning and unless they have close supervision or help then this is what I would suggest.

Second of all as a new feather grows, the part we call the pen or Calamus starts to sprout for a better word, from the inner Dermal Pulp, it is in turn protected by the Epidermal collar and it by Epidermis Follicle. From there it gets more complicated and I am sure everyone is truely bored, but unless this inner core is permanently damaged it will grow back true and straight. Most feather damage takes palce near the tips or on the body of the feather injuring the barblets and central Closed Pennaceous Portion of the feather in falconry as there is usually still support of these new feather by older fully formed ones.

In short if you fly a bird in the moult it DOES NOT mean your bird will be permanently feather damaged.

BenC, Ok so what quarry, would say a Harris take with a beginner, that they would not take in the wild to cause this damage?

[Ben C]

Without questioning your knowledge HM, :) I suspect any situation could cause feather damage, and therefore disrupt the growth of any new ones.

However the main thrust of my argument stands. I have taken quarry that far out weighs what a single, lone, isolated 1lb 5 oz Harris would take in the first year of its life. 2 Bind and ride situations on big Hares, 5lb buck rabbit, 5lb 4oz Cock Pheasant, dog squirrels, and a 1lb 8oz rat.

Ultimately Cody took 104 head of game, with about 30% in fine style. 50% would never have been attempted without him knowing I was there. He sustained massive feather damage and pulled muscles. It took a lot to hold it all together.

Therefore it is clear a Harris is willing to go that extra mile for it's team mate. As such it will sustain damage that far out weighs what would happen if it was hunting in the wild with a cooperative family group.

I assume that any situation could cause muscle, feather or dermis damge. What if the hawk slams into a fence. What if it catches the rabbit and holds on in the vain knowledge that its owner might be quick enough to come in and help? All hunting in the moult represents danger to new and growing plumage.

The bottom line is that it is far safer and sensible to let the hawk moult. We are agreeing on this subject mate, are we not?

Also the scientific stuff isn't boring mate its bloody interesting :) :)

[Hawkmaster]

I agree it is better to moult a bird and this is what I do.

[Ali]

The few other reasons are if told are alot mate, coz when the birds are in wild they are near to their nests, males and females mate lay eggs get a full diet of their own will and wish, but while they are with us on the perches or in the mews they are likely have an instinct to mate at that time so if you try to fly it i am talking about passage sakers and peregrines wild birds it will be a rare chance that they will some back one main point is this that we dont fly the birds in moult the second one is that it might lose its new feathers coz when they drop the old ones the new ones which are about to come are filled with blood and those must be kept in good care coz they are not in the wild that the nature will support them you got to get hold of them properly mate, as you have mentioned the quarry Ben alot of sakers here take down houbaras much more bigger than their own sizes as weight, while we train the birds here we call it (to make ones bird lion heart) thats a local term we use here we give the bird a live houbara and let it stoop on it and once it kills it, its very well aware of what its got to do when she sees one on her first flight.
Regards,
Ali

[Ben C]

Good :)

So we can conclude that it is not wise to fly her through the moult?

[Natch]

VERY GOOD WHAT ARE FLYING

[Ben C]

Mr Ali,
I am very young to the sport. But my Hawk has a 'lion heart' and catches prey 3 times its size. This makes me very happy, but can hurt my hawk. I am therefore worried about flying it in the moult.

Please could you show us here in the UK what a Houbara looks like and do you have any pictures of the birds you fly?

One day soon (3 years) I will be coming to your country and then hopefully we can meet and you can show me how to fly hawks properly :) :) :)

Thanks

Ben

[Ali]

youre most welcomed t ocome here anytime mate, and i have seen alot of pics of houbaras here on the forum but i have forgotten the threads where i saw them sorry i got no pics of them in my pc mate, though i got alot of pics of the wild sakers peregrines which i have kept and sold till this day, i will surely share them with you.
Ali

[Natch]

ALI HAVE YOU PEREGRINES PICS PLEASE

[Ben C]

I would love to see the birds that have a 'lions heart'.......thanks.

Ben Crane

[Ali]

yes i got alot of pics of our local peregrines and i will get them tomorrow mate as well as pics of wild sakers hope you will like them

[Ben C]

Another question Ali, what extra medicines do you feed your hawks?

[Ben C]

What I mean is what do you use for the moult? why and what are the results. How close is it to getting your hawk to its natural state, and does it really work!!

How do you fly your birds Ali? What was the most memoerble flight and what falcon do you fly now? Do you fly goshawks using a jangolia?? Are they imprinted or do you breed your own hawks?

Sorry but I have many questions :) :) :)

[Natch]

:weedman:

[Ali]

We here always feed fresh pigeons, partridges,naturally bred chickens its like we dont give the full pigeon to it only the wings no feather should be with that, and coz we dont chop the head we cut its neck and collect the pigeons blood in a plate and then when the blood is like a thick we place the blood on the flesh of the pigeon and feed it thats very healthy and keeps the bird fit, i usually give one globule of my hand made worm pills to my birds once after 15 days but when its on moult a pill after a month, coz the pill clears out worms and its an all rounder pill works for all types of worms and its all 100% natural its my family remedy as well as it clears the extra fat so the bird never reaches a stage of giving up its food, but in moult we give them rats not the ones you see in homes or labs they are found here in fileds they got short tails and are blonde (not white) sakers as well as other birds, its a saying here the more a saker eats rats the more beautiful it will be.
Ali

[Ali]

i use wild trapped birds mate i got a saker and a gos at the moment which are on moult mate, we dont have captive breds here in pakistan nor anyone breeds them here. The bell in the neck is called JANGOLI and its the best method to fly a goshawk mate coz it keeps the bird strout
Ali

[Ben C]

Ali
It is interesting that you say that sakers are more beautiful if they eat rats. I am feeding clean rats to my hawk, (and another member on the forum has noticed this as well) along with quail and some chick and his feathers are becoming clean and shiny. Thay are better than when I bought him. :) :) :)

Do you not worry about the pigeons that you feed your falcons? do they not spread disease?

Can you tell me about how you hunt and on what land?

Thanks

Ben