Setting an examination

[Ben C]

Suppose our national body organised an entrance exam; what questions would you set and how long should the 'training' last? Would this also mean that the numerous people offering courses should also have to undergo rigourous 're-training'. A bit like qualified teacher status. :D :D :D

I definately think there should be a certified inspection of housing and written evidence of already granted permission, (checked by the instructor and possibly the breeder) before anyone purchases a hawk.

Or is this all a bit too much red tape? I'd be genuinely interested in what some of the more experienced falconers have to say/write about it

[ColdZero]

I definitely think something needs to be done to stop the inexperienced getting hold of BOP. The same can be said for most animals however, any animal can be mistreated through ignorance.

I don't think a written exam is necessary or effective (to an extent) as i learnt very fast, reading a book means very little when it comes to learning about BOP. I think the best way is for an experienced falconer (like an apprenticeship) to inspect them after they have done training, or think they are ready.

I won't go into too much detail, but it would include mews checks and everything else.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

[coldzero

I think the best way is for an experienced falconer (like an apprenticeship) to inspect them after they have done training, or think they are ready.








What makes a experienced falconer!! Someone who has been teaching it years and has taught other people for instance?

Or maybe that someone wasn't taught correctly or doesn't know what they should. This person then passes on bad advice and then creates a story that goes like this " yes but he said to do it that way and he has been doing it for 20 years".

This will be one of the problems encountered with this.

Who will be judging who.

I am no mate of swampy ( famous tree hugger) but far to many people have animals that are very abused and they shouldn't own them.

This seems weird :?: but think about this i read it somewhere!

How many hamsters are abused and die from being not fed or given water each day because the children forget to feed them and the parents are too irresponsible.
Yes this is true! But know one gives a *****, waste of hawk food if you ask me.

Do you think the ANTIS will set up a group for this!!!

Anyway i think we should have something in place for BOP but it will be hard to set up and govern!

[Wightwings]

HARD............can you imagine going to someone who has been flying birds for years and saying sorry but you need to get a qualification......its not as easy as it was in my industry (construction H&S ) when we brought outcards for trades but used "grandfather rights" and letters from employers to back up experience until only the newbies wre left to do qulaifications.

The whole issue would be just TOO much to manage and control, besides who would do THAT, Defra? i dont cocoa, the Hawk Board? A great subject but one as deep at the Atlantic Ocean im afraid.

[EddieT]

How can you judge someone's ability in falconry?

As an example you could get someone to tie a falconers knot. Many falconers with decades of experience would not be able to and many would argue with some conviction that they don't need to and that it is a dangerous way of tethering a bird.

The point I'm trying to make is that falconry has as many opinions about how to do it as there are falconers, who says which way is right.

I reckon you should look at the falconer and look at his bird. If one has a big grin on their face and the other is fit and well then who am I to comment?!!

[Wightwings]

:prayer: :supz: :supz: :supz:

[ColdZero]

Exactly there are loads of ways of doing it, thats why exams are ****. I was trying to keep it brief....but if there were a few people in each county who are 'qualified', ie voted as knowing what they are doing, then they can inspect the wanna be falconer after their training to see if they were taught right. Its simple enough. They only mark, and guide if there is a problem, not a difference of opinion.

[Bubo]

that is more or less how it is done in the wallonian part of belgium. if a person wishes to have a bop then one has to send off a request to our organisation with pictures of the birds mews/aviaries and your experience. that is then processed and it can take up to six months before they even come and check out your quarters. They also inspect your equipment, freezer food etc. Most people here get their bird then introduce their request ???? dont ask i dont know why and they all seem to get away with it (providing the mews are ok and the bird looks healthy and happy). But, i think we are now on our way to getting tighter rules and new laws coming in. the flemish part of belgium is different but not sure how much different. also breeders have different rules to hunters.

bubo

[Hawkmaster]

something needs to be done to stop the inexperienced getting hold of BOP
I am not against inexperienced people getting birds at all, else none of us would have them now.

[GDN]

Hawk master is right. We have all got to start some where and we were all beginners once. Lets not forget that.

The problem is as others are saying who judges who set the standards and if need be who enforces when the standards are broken. There could be a real danger of the sport ripping itself apart because of all the politics in falconry. Unfortunately we have probally missed our chance to do something and now it's probally impossible to do something.

As to what we should do i don't really know. Should it be courses or should it be apprenticeships or the use of mentors or all 3. The first step might be to try and tighten up who is selling birds of prey. While many breeders are reputable there are a few who don't give a **** about the birds or who they sell them to. Then you have the people who are selling birds on. I have seen birds for sale in the blue and yellow newspapers that sell everything. Is that right. Maybe breeders / people selling birds should be asking for references from the person who wants the bird and as to where the bird is going. After all in some ways they are at the start of the wholee process.

Maybe centres should be checking to see if the person can look after the bird ie somewhere to keep it and fly it before putting a person through a course and instead of thinking "great that's a couple of hundred quid". Maybe the centre should have a zoo licence to ensure it facilites are up to standard or individuals who are teaching are recomended through a club.

These are just ideas. Some might say i am talking **** other might say might say i'm right. I think if we try and do anything we will be opening a big can of worms and it will get very messy. But to sit back and do nothing well i think that is alot worse. I fear the worst for falconry. There are elements to this sport who are doing it no favours are in it for all the wrong reasons. In my opinion it won't be the antis who get falconry banned. It will be us because we haven't got our house in order and rather than work together we all sat around and bitched.

[Sprout]

Varmint is looking in to this at the moment in collaboration with LANTRA. The hawk board are interested in setting some standard that husbandry/welfare etc can be measured against and as such are attempting to provide a qualification that will go some way to demonstrating competency at a basic level ie enough knowledge to keep a bird alive.

[ColdZero]

well that was poorly phrased, what i meant was to stop those who have not done any research, or have any hands on experience acquiring a hawk. Is this so unreasonable???

[Sprout]

I personally think some regulation is required, preferably inetrnally monitored to protect falconry. This should allow falconry to continue to be accessible to all who wish to take it up but allow a certain standard to be met before one is allowed to buy a bird. Although I don't think an examination will be the complete solution it will give evidence that a basic understanding has been met. Breeders/people selling birds should be made to be accountable and ensure the new owner is competent. Having an examination system is one way that competency can be demonstrated.

[ColdZero]

Forums like this could help thinking about it. If everyone had to post their mews etc....probably a stupid idea actually.

[Ben C]

I would hope it goes a bit further than just keeping the hawk alive sprout :lol: :wink: I would definately take some form of formal exam if it was implimented by the board. Perhaps a qualification such as a master guild of craftsmen, on a voluntary basis. So any new blood could pick and choose between those with the qualification and support of the body and those without.

I cannot think it would be as far reaching as the USA, but something like this is certainly is not outside the remit of all those organisations which currently set standards.

In fact I quite like the idea of having a certificate approved by more experienced falconers than myself, standards and achievement and all that :D :D :D

I think it should also have a practicle element; particularly dispatch, maybe coping, imping etc etc.

[Varmint]

The newly formed Federation of Professional Falconers is in the mist of writeing a basic husbandry course for LANTRA at the moment.

Although this course will be a very basic stepping stone it is hoped that it will be the first of four compitency levels that can be set.

Those who take it will become the first officially qualified Falconers in the UK and will hopefully set an example to others.

We hope to have the course curriculum avialble for comment by the Falconers fair and info on both the course and the federation will be available from the Hawk Board stand.

[Saker-Clive]

Any idea of how much each course will be and who to get in touch with to take it?
Would it be a written 1 day seminar or over X amount of time?

[ColdZero]

does everyone who wants the title of falconer have to take a husbandary course? have i misunderstood again?

[Ben C]

Sounds spot on Varmint, I shall be first in line to have a look.

As a teacher I shall be able to puruse it and give you a merit or send a letter home to your parents :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mary Quite Contrary]

The newly formed Federation of Professional Falconers is in the mist of writeing a basic husbandry course for LANTRA at the moment.

Although this course will be a very basic stepping stone it is hoped that it will be the first of four compitency levels that can be set.

Those who take it will become the first officially qualified Falconers in the UK and will hopefully set an example to others.

We hope to have the course curriculum avialble for comment by the Falconers fair and info on both the course and the federation will be available from the Hawk Board stand.


Will this be a national thing or will the select few people obtain all the business from this.
Is it for the good or the great to make them greater.

[Ben C]

I can't imagine it will effect those who don't wish to take it, perhaps only in as much as when anyone chooses to be trained they can go to a certified instructor. Those without a qualification will loose business.

I would hope that it would be more like making the good great and the great greater :D :D

[North East Harris Hawker]

I recon any prospective purchaser of a BOP should have to at least be a member of a club and hold a valid membership card to prove this.

All clubs have rules and those running them/or an associate are likely to have an interest in the welfare of ANY hawk.
.
There are so many differences in peoples methods it would be impossible to police.
I would carry out an inspection of anyones mews provided they attended regularly (at least throught the flying season) and give them a membership card.

.
if all clubs agreed to an annual mews inspection, then everyones set up gets looked at. If people are keeping their birds in rag order, club reps could either give a warning and re-inspect/withdraw club membership and report the matter to RSPCA/hawk board
.
a kind of moderate policing with the birds welfare at heart
.
I know, im a genius :roll:

[Varmint]

The Lantra course will be a national thing and any Commercial school which has the basic fundimantal facilities to offer such a course will be welcome to apply for a LANTRA qualification to teach it.

Basic stuff required is the ability to pass the instructors test and adequate public liability insurance to teach people.

I dont think too many will try for the Lantra status though cause it looks at the moment like it is going to cost any school a lot of money to teach it, but we'll have to see what comes out in the wash, this one is a work in progress?

[IAmTheWeasel]

Exactly there are loads of ways of doing it, thats why exams are ****. I was trying to keep it brief....but if there were a few people in each county who are 'qualified', ie voted as knowing what they are doing, then they can inspect the wanna be falconer after their training to see if they were taught right. Its simple enough. They only mark, and guide if there is a problem, not a difference of opinion.CZ, you are right in that the exams are *****, but your missing the point of it. The test forces people two do two things that are important. 1: he/she will read up on alot of falconry related material to studt for the test therby increasing his/her knowledge of the sport and 2: this is used as a deterent for those casually interested souls that only want a pet....If you ask me......I think the test is an neccisary evil in our sport here in the USA. It certainly weeds out the rif-raf.
Weasel

[ColdZero]

i suppose it works if you don't have a clue what the question will be like. I read the THEORY behind falconry, the books written by the top names like philip glasier etc. Then when it came to training my bird for real you face the roblems you can only learn to deal with through experience. Thats why i think a personal inspection, just a casual visit by another qualified falconer would be far more effective.

Or to make life easier, stop breeders selling them to people who don't know what they are doing. Most good breeders don't, but then you get the people with too many owls they want to get rid of ec. Also, make centres do tough training courses, although to be fair they already know what they are doing. The only centre i haven'tliked is rutland, crappy cramped mews and tethered owls everywhere.

[Bubo]

http://yelims3.free.fr/Grrrrrrrrrrrr/Grrrr40.gifhttp://yelims3.free.fr/Grrrrrrrrrrrr/Grrrr27.gifhttp://yelims3.free.fr/Grrrrrrrrrrrr/Grrrr03.gif ooohhhh i hate people tethering owls........... owls hate it too i kicked up a fuss over here cos one guy was gonna do a display with his owls and bop he decided at the last minute he couldnt do it and offered someone else on the this particular forum to take over. the other guy said he couldnt as his bird is in moult the first guy said you dont have to fly just take your bird along :shock: :shock: :shock: he reckons leaving his birds all day long tethered where loads of peeps will be gawping and prodding is ok aaaaaaaaaagggggggggghhhhhhhh so big gob here had a little chat :twisted:

hmm after all that ranting and raving i forgot to reply properly. I agree with what weasle said (YET AGAIN http://yelims3.free.fr/Hein/Hein33.gif i'm really exerting myself here) but even if the test wont prove much at least the peeps would have read up a bit
shame we dont get little broaches (bronze wings, silver wings and gold wings) at the end of exam hehe

[Claire]

its worse to have an owl permanently in a small aviary and never flown than tethered and flown daily, and sometimes its better for manning and training depending on the bird. tethering an owl is never ideal but is sometimes necessary

[Bubo]

i agree claire but if someone is contemplating on getting an owl then they should think about avairy size before hand. if they dont have the space then dont get the owl!!

[Claire]

ok lets put this another way. a rescued eeo badly imprinted as a baby, this is a male if he is in an aviary this time of year you cant fly him because he might try to mate with a persons head. if he is teathered just for the spring he dosent come into breeding condition and can be flown. the avairy is always there but is it better for him to be in it and not flown or tethered and flown every day (its a big aviary) just wanted to point out sometimes there is a good reason for an owl to be tethered

[IAmTheWeasel]

Wow....this turned into another owl discussion..... :roll: :lol:

[Sparrow Hawker]

The main problem we have with any new regulations is we don't know how many practising falconers there are within the UK. Defra has made it such that not all birds used in falconry need to be registered! If we had an idea on the number of people within falconry it would make implementing regulations a lot easier.

Does know how many falconers there are in the UK?

Regards,

HH

[ColdZero]

well i don't know if anyone knows where i'm talking about, but its very close to rutland water. I doubt any of the birds are ever flown, there are owls tethered everywhere, and sheds full of irds, its horrible. I doubt the tethered owls are moved everyday other, so they stay out in the rain unsheltered.
I was told that something was going to be done, as some sort of inspection was taking place.

Anyway, back on point. Its pointless having an exam where you know whats on it, i don' know much about the USA exam but they seem to have to know the same facts. Number of feathers etc, but they have 2 years of hands on experience.

[IAmTheWeasel]

CZ., What are you talking about? You know what is going to be on the test in school don't you? All the information is in the books you have and the tachers know this....that's why we have tests! Does it make the test useless? ...I think not. The idea is to get the mind stimulated to take in information. The fact is, that you need to police your own...don't tell other folks the answers to the test before they take it, make them do the research to find out as they will gain knowledge on the way.
Take the test at this link below and I will give you 10 freebees as they are semi related to either US regs or birds and then post how many you missed on top of that. This is an easy version of our falconry test. It is simply a hurdle to jump over, but it proves to other falconers that this person is willing to go through all this to fly a bird, then he must have at least some drive to excel.
http://www.onlinefalconry.com/USFederalFalconryExam.htm

[Saker-Clive]

I got 62, admitted there are a lot to do with the US species that we wouldn't normally cover.
22 minutes to do.

[Claire]

i got 77

[ColdZero]

I know that my biology test may include 1 of a possible 7 subkects, but if i knew it would be on one whats the point? I don't know anything about american falconry, and don't really want to, but if they are told specifiic things like having to know how many primaries a RT has etc it seems a bit pointless.

I found that test hard, nearly every question was american, and falcons. I don't know much about falcons as it doesn't interest me as much as hawks.

I got 58, i thought i was doing better.

[Bubo]

"Wow....this turned into another owl discussion....."

weasle does this surprise you?? hehehe and WOW weasle joined in :P

[Ben C]

Thanks for high jacking the thread folks…..take your twit a wooing to the owl section :lol: :lol: :lol:

Varmint, when you talk of cost, how much roughly is it going to be on top for those wishing to participate? Would it be a substantial rise on say a basic rate of £400 for a 3 day course? The initial outlay for falconry is massive anyway, what would another £200 be for 15 years of pleasure? Also how long would a person have to have been a practicing falconer before they could take the instructors exam?

I cannot see why a falconer has to be affiliated to a club in order to get going. It may help those who seek that kind of structure, but I don’t see why that would automatically help them with their skills.

In fact I’ve done fine in spite of not being in a club, what with the insurmountable problem of personalities and underlying squabbles. As well as the plethora of different techniques all clashing and hindering progress.
You only have to compare different books to see the gaping chasm between approaches. Look at the difference between say Lee William Harris and Martin Hollinshead for example (No judgements or criticism, just DIFFERENT). I am not saying clubs are bad, just that I hawk independently from them and prefer the solitude.

An independent and verifiable course for instructors, breeders and dodgy beginners is certainly more feasible. Nearly every other country sport has a verifiable course with certification. I have even managed to get fishing onto my schools curriculum, taken kids out and had an instructor working with a whole host of abilities. Imagine that for a future goal……Hawking on the National Curriculum.

[Bubo]

clubs i think are good as we can always pick up good tips, techniques and personally if we had one here i would certainly join up.

[Ben C]

Yep I am sure you like them, I just prefer working on my own. This is not to say I don't agree with them or anything else, and I am sure they benefit those who use them etc etc Just not for me thats all!

[Bubo]

of course i would like them that means more people to show the beauty of my owl off to :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

THREAD MOVED TO THE CORRECT PLACE :?

[Ben C]

Oh no not again.........LOL

[Bubo]

keep on thread for goodness sake benc :lol:

[Woody1966]

Talking of exams and that, I heard a rumour that some college was going to start doing a correspondence course on Bird Management, anybody else heard about it or got any details?

[Bird_Dog]

This discussion is interesting. What is the position taken by the wildlife authorites in the UK? The legal regulation of raptos in the US is a result of the 1972 International Migratory Bird Treaty between Canada, US and Mexico. Mexico doesn't really enforce the treaty, but the US and Canada do. It took couple of years to get the US regs approved. Birds held before 1974 were not covered by the law. Falconry is just one set of regs., we also have propagation and rehab. regulations as well. If the UK joins the EU will it affect falconry as it's currently practiced in the UK? Laws protecting BOP and other wildlife helped change the public attitude in the US. Before most people (especially ranchers) shot, poisoned, trapped or otherwise despised raptors. The public interest may mandate some protect. After all wildlife is everybodies concern. That said I would like, as Hal Webster urges the modification of wildlife rules to consider captive-bred raptors to be classified as private property. In texas, this is complicated by the canned-hunting of deer on game ranches. The state wildlife are against private property status of game species. I commend Varmit's efforts, perhaps something is looming that may alter falconry in the UK and having a well-prepared organization (i.e., falconry community) with protocols in place will prevent the same lag in time experience in the US between government regulation and the legimate practice of falconry for the UK.

-- BIRD_DOG

[RabbitHawker]

Under new legislation, breeders of BOP are responsible for the welfare of bairds after they have sold them, as they should check that the buyer has enough experience, appropriate housing etc. If the new owner failed to care for the bird correctly, there would be risk of prosecution of the breeder as well. One advantage of a qualification would be that the breeders would be covered if the buyer had a certificate of competence.
There are a lot of people buying HH particularly with no idea of how to look after them, and no idea of the amount of time and cost needed to look after them correctly,as a vet I see the results of this all too often.I have a friend who takes in abandoned reptile, she has yust recieved a Burmese Python which was surplus to needs, as the boy had decided to get a HH, we're just waiting for that to be dropper off when he discovers Birds(not the feathered varietey)....
Some of the breeders must bear some of the responsibility, just being cynical but as spring comes those unsold birds from last season need to be found home, few questions asked about experience...
However this is not unique to BOP, the worst pet on welfare grounds is probably the poor old bunny on it's own in a hutch at the bottom of the garden being looked after by an 8 year old child. They often suffer badly before the patent listens to the child or notices something is wrong on their once weekly check. We recently had a phone call from a rabbit owner to see if it would be alright to leave her rabbit that she had just noticed has maggots, it was just that she was going on holiday in 45minutes and was not sure she could bring it down, I had a call out another evening to a dying rabbit, and felt unable to reassure the owner that the rabbit had not been suffering for some time before she had acted on what her daughter had told her.

[Steve L]

I totally agree that there should be some sort of qualification in basic BOP managment prior to purchasing a bird of prey but there will always be some one who breeds BOP just to gain a few quid and not bother about the welfare of the bird once its left his/her premises. I used to see serious cases of neglect everyday to all animals and unfortunatly it will never stop.

[RabbitHawker]

I agree that it will never stop, but it will at least show that we are concerned for the welfare of our birds, and a new purchaser will at least have some core knowledge. Anyway, off to the Hawk Board meeting, can't be late.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Under new legislation, breeders of BOP are responsible for the welfare of bairds after they have sold them, as they should check that the buyer has enough experience, appropriate housing etc. If the new owner failed to care for the bird correctly, there would be risk of prosecution of the breeder as well. One advantage of a qualification would be that the breeders would be covered if the buyer had a certificate of competence.
There are a lot of people buying HH particularly with no idea of how to look after them, and no idea of the amount of time and cost needed to look after them correctly,as a vet I see the results of this all too often.I have a friend who takes in abandoned reptile, she has yust recieved a Burmese Python which was surplus to needs, as the boy had decided to get a HH, we're just waiting for that to be dropper off when he discovers Birds(not the feathered varietey)....
Some of the breeders must bear some of the responsibility, just being cynical but as spring comes those unsold birds from last season need to be found home, few questions asked about experience...
However this is not unique to BOP, the worst pet on welfare grounds is probably the poor old bunny on it's own in a hutch at the bottom of the garden being looked after by an 8 year old child. They often suffer badly before the patent listens to the child or notices something is wrong on their once weekly check. We recently had a phone call from a rabbit owner to see if it would be alright to leave her rabbit that she had just noticed has maggots, it was just that she was going on holiday in 45minutes and was not sure she could bring it down, I had a call out another evening to a dying rabbit, and felt unable to reassure the owner that the rabbit had not been suffering for some time before she had acted on what her daughter had told her.


After reading that post Rabbit hawker i have greatest respect for you in doing what you do.
My anger for these empty heads would be shown.
Will the ANTIS and the welfare groups start a crusade on all the irresponsible parents who let these animals suffer as there children's pets.
No they wont but they will stick there noses in with things that they don't do themselves.
It is like the vegetarian who gives up meat because of the thought of death and suffering of the animal. Yet this same person will pick up a snail and chuck it against a wall because the snail is consuming the lettuce this person is growing. That is cruelty and is inflicting more suffering and pain than anything a farm reared animal hopefully would suffer. There seems to be to many double standards in life
With BOP and this course it should give the birds greater protection and hopefully educate people more but the other thing is if there is a national test to do, it will regulated what falconers do and that will make it so much harder for the ANTIS to BAN which will mean we can do what we love with the backing of a nationally recognized course.

Yippee

ANTIS go play with the traffic.

[Ben C]

Vegetarians throwing snails at a wall? My god does such a thing exist!! I shall tell Lucy off imediately. Fancy her being a veggie and secretly torturing snails...I often wondered what she was doing buying sacks of salt...LOL LOL
Rabbit: Turns my stomach to hear such stupid behaviour. All the more reason for respectful ownership papers.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Vegetarians throwing snails at a wall? My god does such a thing exist!! I shall tell Lucy off imediately. Fancy her being a veggie and secretly torturing snails...I often wondered what she was doing buying sacks of salt...LOL LOL
Rabbit: Turns my stomach to hear such stupid behaviour. All the more reason for respectful ownership papers.


:D :D