Tiercels

[Falconry Equipment International]

I do hope this thread will be slightly less contentious than my previous thread on swivels, however it is a delicate subject I feel. Being 'a silly old buffer' when someone talks to me or I see in print the word 'Tiercel' I automatically think of a male Peregrine, anything else including gosses to me are males/sakrets , lannerets etc,etc,also I call a male Falco Peregrinus Peregrinus a Tiercel so the female for me is a 'Falcon' if Hybrid males are to be called this what are the females to be called??
please try to think before leaving upsetting emails( this is not directed to anyone! Best wishes to all
SJ

[Claire]

i always think of a male pere when someone uses tiercel and like you i refer to male lanners as lannerets and so on

[Afshimo]

same as clair. :)

[Jack Merlin]

Being 'a silly old buffer' when someone talks to me or I see in print the word 'Tiercel' I automatically think of a male Peregrine, anything else including gosses to me are males/sakrets , lannerets etc,etc,

Speaking as a silly old buffer myself<g>, I'd call the male of most of the hawks that are 1/3rd smaller than the female a tiercel. That does not include those which have a special name as you say (sacret, lanneret, musket, etc).

The female is simply a peregrine, goshawk, etc.

What's in a name, anyway? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, etc., etc. and so long as we understand each other, does it really matter? Though I think I draw the line at calling the females "hens" and eyasses "children" or "babies"!<vbg> And I would hope my hawks were "hatched" and not "born". But I'm not going to condemn anyone who has a good bird and knows how to fly it because they call it a "baby hen goshawk"....!!

[Bill]

I do hope this thread will be slightly less contentious

Interesting topic, bu Methinks you hope in vain

Am I wrong in calling a female kestrel a falcon?

I have a falcon, it is a female saker.

I have a saker falcon it's a male and falconers call them sakrets.

Like Jack I am happy calling males of the falco genus tiercel when the lack any other name. But I probably draw the line at calling a kestrel a tiercel
On the forum it actually irks me more to see falconry terms and birds spelled incorrectly. We all slip up now and then but "pereguin" is not uncommon and this sport is supposed to be our passion.

However, it's language and it moves - text is now a verb with a past tense of texted :?

[Varmint]

I refer to any hybrid of the peregrine that is male as a tiercel, but i must admit to call it that must really alter some peoples lives and make millions suffer world wide!

I would never refer to a Goshawk as a tiercel cause it's just too risky!!

Get a life Jay, hows my spelling "Andy"? :wink:

I know some folk that calls themselves "falconers", is this also a trade description issue?

[Falconry Equipment International]

Get a life Jay,
Got one thanks Varmint :yawinkle: have you? :twisted: :lol:
just sufferoing moulting blues :?

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Varmint wrote:Get a life Jay,

Jay wrote.....Got one thanks Varmint have you?
just sufferoing moulting blues


I've seen your life pal..... :lol: :lol: ........I was browsing ebay, and saw what you get up to when your suffering the moulting blues..... :lol: :lol: ..
.....you pervy old duffer...... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I personally call the male of anything with peregrine in it tiercel & nothing else. But I agree with Adrian, does it really matter?......

Regards,
Lucky.

[Falconry Equipment International]

I personally call the male of anything with peregrine in it tiercel & nothing else. But I agree with Adrian, does it really matter?......

Regards,
Lucky.
Hi Ll No , just interested

[Jack Merlin]

I would never refer to a Goshawk as a tiercel cause it's just too risky!!

Does anyone know why a male sparrowhawk is called a musket? And was that name used before the development of firearms? If so, presumably the weapon was named after the bird. Just curious.

As I mess around with these old books (see sig!), it impresses me more and more how our language has changed. I was amused by a reference to "naughty mutes" and now I have come across "naughty meat". I think the author means the mutes are not normal and the meat has gone off -- but I could be wrong!<g>

Plenty of naughty falconers on this list, eh?<vbg> (But not, of course, subscribing to this thread).

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Jack Merlin wrote....Does anyone know why a male sparrowhawk is called a musket? And was that name used before the development of firearms? If so, presumably the weapon was named after the bird. Just curious.

Here is an explanation Jack, how accurate it is, I am not sure.....

It derives from the Italian word moschetto, which means "sparrowhawk", but which literally means "little fly".
There are at least two explanations for why the firearm was so named. One source suggests that moschetto was the darkly humorous name of the bolt of a crossbow, and that was then applied to the firearm. Another source suggests that the firearm was named directly after the sparrowhawk, as other firearms were named after birds of prey.

Regards,
Lucky.

[Falconry Equipment International]

Jack Merlin wrote....Does anyone know why a male sparrowhawk is called a musket? And was that name used before the development of firearms? If so, presumably the weapon was named after the bird. Just curious.

Here is an explanation Jack, how accurate it is, I am not sure.....

It derives from the Italian word moschetto, which means "sparrowhawk", but which literally means "little fly".
There are at least two explanations for why the firearm was so named. One source suggests that moschetto was the darkly humorous name of the bolt of a crossbow, and that was then applied to the firearm. Another source suggests that the firearm was named directly after the sparrowhawk, as other firearms were named after birds of prey.

Regards,
Lucky.
Crickey LLL :shock:
thats interesting , there you go , that's something else I've learned this morning, & its only 9.30 am :wink: Re jack's post in the boke of StAlbans ( 1486 AD) a musket is mentioned several times, is this not before the gun was widely used even in cannon form( sorry I don't know the dates for this)?

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Some interesting stuff here......

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/techniques/pup_wd.html

and here....

http://riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/gun/firstgun.htm

Regards,
LLL.

[Falconry Equipment International]

LLL very intersting, unfortunately this possibly blows my theory out of the water( sorry for the pun!). Therefore does anyone know of falconry text that predates the Boke of St Albans that mentions musket ( BTW on the second link interesting the gun called the falconet lattractive drawing of this and the 'culverin'
regards
SJ

[Jack Merlin]

It derives from the Italian word moschetto, which means "sparrowhawk", but which literally means "little fly".

That has the ring of authenticity to it. And it's descriptive, too. Yes, I'll go along with that.

Those guys on an American list who fly musket sharp-shins have my total admiration. Presumably, they would be midges or gnats.<g> "Little fly" certainly suits the musket sparrowhawk, though.

[Tim Laycock]

It derives from the Italian word moschetto, which means "sparrowhawk", but which literally means "little fly".
There are at least two explanations for why the firearm was so named. One source suggests that moschetto was the darkly humorous name of the bolt of a crossbow, and that was then applied to the firearm. Another source suggests that the firearm was named directly after the sparrowhawk, as other firearms were named after birds of prey.

This is on the button, spot on infact.
I have a book that explains it in similar terms, I shall try and root it out and post its name.

On the subject of the thread-
I only ever refer to the male of the goshawk and Perigrine as tiercels as to my mind nothing else suits the term.

Going back up the thread, I had to laugh at this:-
"baby hen goshawk"....!!

[Moritz]

Tiercel comes from the latin word tercia what means a third. There for by my oppinon every male BOP is a tiercle. Females are females. All the german falconers I worked with do it this way, so I picked it up. And most of them have been doing falconry longer then any falconer in this forum.

Moritz

[Tim Laycock]

And most of them have been doing falconry longer then any falconer in this forum.

Interesting Moritz

But I have my doubts about the validity of this "off the cuff remark" :)

[Goldie]

Tiercel comes from the latin word tercia what means a third. There for by my oppinon every male BOP is a tiercle. Females are females. All the german falconers I worked with do it this way, so I picked it up. And most of them have been doing falconry longer then any falconer in this forum.

Moritz

You may find that Tiercel is from the old french word Tercuel to imply 1/3 smaller. If we were to follow your reasoning, we would have to re-write all the falconry books. Female falcons are "Falcons" and what do we do with the males such as Jack, musket, and sakeret or laneret to name but a few. Perhaps tradition should be dispersed with as well ?
Maybe when you are older and wiser you will understand that very few things have changed in falconry in centuries, just improved upon in certain areas.
I also think you will find there may be a few falconers on this forum who have been practicing falconry a lot longer than you realise. It's also not how long that counts, it just so happens I know an old German falconer who started in 1947 and has only ever had 3 eagles. but his knowledge of true falconry leaves a lot to be desired.

[Varmint]

It's time that our falconry era got remembered for something that falconers for years to come can refer too?

What about re naming the male Harris Hawk?

This yera i r mostly be flying my twice intermewed , eyass, Rolfie! :lol:

( sorry guys just getting a bit egg bound myself!)

[Goldie]

It's time that our falconry era got remembered for something that falconers for years to come can refer too?

What about re naming the male Harris Hawk?

This yera i r mostly be flying my twice intermewed , eyass, Rolfie! :lol:

( sorry guys just getting a bit egg bound myself!)


Adrian, what would you like to rename it ?

[Mary Quite Contrary]

i agree with Goldie

Some people have been doing falconry for years and there knowledge is scraping the barrel. Its like these people who collect birds of prey they seemed to have loads but ask them a question and they don't know jack.

To me a tiercel is a pere.

This is the same thing with the word Yarak, people use this word for hawks instead of falcons???

[Goldie]

This is the same thing with the word Yarak, people use this word for hawks instead of falcons???

Hi CC, if tradition is to be observed, then " Yarak " is usually only applied to shortwings, longwings are deemed to be " sharp set "

[Varmint]

Goldie, I'd like to call em Arse Ole's, cos everyone seems to have one> :butthead:

What about all those folks who have been doing falconry 5 minutes and can tell you fact and figure from every book, but look at their bird, and it looks like a refugee from a pillow factory and fly's like a duster?

I rate falconers on their birds condition and performance not on what they think they know!

We could have a willy sticking out contest and see exactly who's been doing the sport the longest on the forum, i bet we'd discover the missing masses who never spoke to anybody or never bought a bird from anybody, but all of who have been out there for 20 years or more 8) :lol:

It's important to understand where you came from, to know where your going!

[Goldie]

Adrian, Couldn't have wrote that better myself

[Goldie]

Adrian, are you going to the fair or are you too busy with the breeding ?

[Varmint]

Too Busy Mate! Everything is reproducing around here?

Since Sunday i have welcomed into the world, 5 hawks, 7 falcons, 22 ferrets, 120 quail, 2 Foals (from same mare and one died) im knackered!!!!

I really wanted to get down and see some of the old Cronies but it will have to wait until Scone or maybe next years fair?

You going Goldie?

[Goldie]

yeah, def sunday but may stay over. going to look up Griff and SJ and like you said, catch up with people I only usually see once a year

[Mary Quite Contrary]

This is the same thing with the word Yarak, people use this word for hawks instead of falcons???

Hi CC, if tradition is to be observed, then " Yarak " is usually only applied to shortwings, longwings are deemed to be " sharp set "


I thought it was an Eastern term for a falcon in keen, fit, lean state and ready for action.

Well you learn something every day.

Cheers

[Goldie]

[quote="
I thought it was an Eastern term for a falcon in keen, fit, lean state and ready for action.

Well you learn something every day.

Cheers[/quote]

Replace the word falcon withshortwing and you are exactly right :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

Its like these people who collect birds of prey they seemed to have loads but ask them a question and they don't know jack.

Damn! And I thought I was famous!<g> (BTW, I'm Jack, if you hadn't noticed).

How about: joined the BFC in 1954, resigned in 1963 (if my memory serves me right) after the stuck up committee decuided iot was their business that I was importing lanners from Nigeria (£9 each including air freight - those were the days).

Virtually gave up falconry on realizing that the key to the whole thing was having good reliable dogs and because of college, etc. Thought I would get that sorted in five years. Well, it took over 30 years, but at least I am back into falconry!<vbg>

In that time, I have learnt one thing for sure. Or you could say I have had it confirmed time and again by watching other falconers. Good dogs make good hawks. Now print that out and frame it. It is the best advice you will ever get in this sport.

[Moritz]

If I am not completly wrong French is a romanic language, there for the french word will come from the latin word. I just wrote how I am used to call the birds, I never said that it is the right way. If you can show me someone on this forum beeing falconer for 51 and 54 years and flying and hunting different birds all the time, including eagles, falcons and hawks, then I would like to know who they are and show them my great respect.

Moritz

[The Late Lord Lucan]

I thought it was an Eastern term for a falcon in keen, fit, lean state and ready for action.

The word Yarak is supposed to apply to an accipiter that is in full hunting condition, if you read the old books, they'll tell you that it is an old no longer used Turkish word. I'm not sure wether this is correct.
Fact is, it's not an old forgotten word, it is still used.
The Turkish word Yarak means dick or *****, yarak khafali means 'dick head', very offensive to Turkish people.

Regards,
LLL.

[OutFlying]

Good job I've never flown with a Turk who owns a goshawk, could have been tricky. :oops:

[Jack Merlin]

The word Yarak is supposed to apply to an accipiter that is in full hunting condition

I was always led to believe that it was more of a mental state than a physical condition. So a bird might be fit and at flying weight, but not in yarak.

A gos in yarak characteristically has an erect crest (hence the Turkish meaning?) and is ready to fly anything that moves. Just a suggestion.

[Sokoly]

Peolple "yarak" is apsolutelly Turkish word and it is not state of mind but a posture of an Accipiter when in write hunting weight. Like a full gun waiting for the write moment to explode. It's only used with the shortwings/accipiters. The otomans - Turks who lived 5 centuries ago used to hunt with this birds. They ruled most of the balkan peninsula and eastern Europe. My country was 5 centuries under Otoman Empire. Thats why I am telling you "Yarak" was only ment about phisycal appereance of the hawk. At that time they knew nothing about state of the mind of a hawk.Thaks and STAY COOL