Rapid moult

[Pete Smith]

Hi,
Have any of the group members experimented with manipulating the moult cycle of your birds, through artificially altering the photo period, or through the use of Thyroid derivative?
If you have could you provide info below.

1) Which of the above systems did you employ?(Lights...or drugs).
2) If you used Thyroid derivative did you use T3, or T4?
3) What % reduction in moult cycle did you experience in comparison to previous moults with the same birds?
4)"Very important" (were the birds pure bred, or hybrids?)
(were they male or female?)
5) Notice any differences in effectiveness between pure bred and hybrid?
or male and female?
6) If you used T3, or T4 what program of administration did you use?
EG/ Weight of bird?....Dosage per day?....maintained for(x) days,
cycle was repeated every (x) days / weeks?
7) Any other observations....that were quantifiable?

[RabbitHawker]

I used a longer photoperiod with my Harris's and 1/4 gyr/saker falcon last year, with marked success.
From memory I put them onto a 16 hour day from January to simulate summer daylength, then reduced later, Ican't remember off hand, but based on Nick Fox's book, and articles elsewhere.
I would be very careful with the idea of using thyroid hormones purely to speed the moult as there have effects on the metabolism of the whole body, and not just the feathers. Basal metabolic rate is increased considerably, depending on the dose, increasing the basal heart rate which can cause other systemic effects, esp with the liver.
Free lofting with a good quailty diet with a good protein content, and adjusting the photoperiod would be as much as I would consider justified without risking the health of your bird.
Chris

[Pete Smith]

Hi Chris,
The reason for the post is i've used both systems on Goshawks, and Hybrid falcons (Perlins).
The Gos'es clean moulted in 4 to 5 months using altered photo-period, (Done by July if required).
Perlins were inconsistent using either false Photo-period or drugs, i'm interested in understanding if the inconsistent results with hybrids are common with all hybrids etc.
If others on the list have experimented and recorded their results, it would be interesting to see if just particular hybrids are effected?....also are there falconers who have had inconsistent results with pure bred birds?
Statistically a one or two bird sample is meaningless, hence the post.

I understand your concern ref using Thyroid etc, but have not witnessed any -ve effects on my birds to date....several prominent falconers in the states (Dyrall Perkins) and Europe have used for longer periods without problems.
Chris Just want to understand the limitations.....risks??

[RabbitHawker]

I cant see a reason why hybridisation shoud have an effect copared with a pure bred bird apart from interspecies differences in the nature of the moult in the pure bred parent species. However this shoud be a consistent effect rather than a variable one .
One thing to consider if you are using thyroid supplementation is that the smaller falcons with a higher metabolic rate may well metabolise the drugs faster, were you using once or twice daily dosage?
Chris

[ColdZero]

Personally i wouldn't dream of drugging a BOP to cheat an extra month flying time. Its insignificant compared to all the days you will fly her over the years, why not fly her more, but later in the year?
Well thats just my opinion, how does altering the light period work? I assume it means keeping the bird out of view of the outdoors? or don't they notice that they are under the only light source? The bird would get very bored staring at a wall. Also, it may work to an extent but is their any proof moulting is linked in anyway to day length? Birds kept under 12 hours day/night still knew when to go south lol, clever ******s. So it may be another variable.

Might sound like i'm saying its all wrong, i am not. Just want to make sure its safe/it works, and indeed if its worth doing at all if the birds well being is at stake, ie boredom.

[RabbitHawker]

tHERE IS DEFINATE PROOF THAT DAYLENGTH TRIGGERS THE MOULT, it is easier where you can block out all natural light, but I put the birds onto a long day from January of about 16 hours until they dropped the first few feathers, then the lights were switched off, so they went to whatever the daylength was in mid Feb, and the feathers fell out, and were fed high protein diet, resulting in a nice quick moult as they thought winter was coming. Only slight problem was they were a bit confused in late summer and dropped a few feathers again, but not a problem. As I said this is fine, but I would steer clear of hormones unless a real need to use them.
Chris

[OutFlying]

Another question is - want do you want to fly in June or July ?

[Hawkmaster]

(Dyrall Perkins)
I believe he is a member of the forum, so can maybe comment?
Might sound like i'm saying its all wrong, i am not. Just want to make sure its safe/it works, and indeed if its worth doing at all if the birds well being is at stake, ie boredom.
Only through trial and error will people know what is the best method.
Another question is - want do you want to fly in June or July ?
Probably nothing, but imagine how well you will do at the start of the season with a bird that is WELL fit already?

I find it amazing how people just poo poo the idea of drugs for our birds, when we suck on them all day as a soceity? This is a very difficult thing to get info on and only a small percentage of people are luck enough to experiment or afford to, for various reasons. Like we can all read in Dr. Fox's book to use Norlutin, but nowhere on the net does it talk about dosages? Rightly so too as until falconers or the pioneers of this method have the facts, maybe if should be kept under wraps from newbies?

But then a novice would also not know why one would want to have that fast moult or be at that stage of falconry, would they, so is there a risk of it?

[Shaun Byrne]

[quote
I find it amazing how people just poo poo the idea of drugs for our birds, when we suck on them all day as a soceity? This is a very difficult thing to get info on and only a small percentage of people are luck enough to experiment or afford to, for various reasons. Like we can all read in Dr. Fox's book to use Norlutin, but nowhere on the net does it talk about dosages? Rightly so too as until falconers or the pioneers of this method have the facts, maybe if should be kept under wraps from newbies?

But then a novice would also not know why one would want to have that fast moult or be at that stage of falconry, would they, so is there a risk of it?

One thing I have to ask HM, is where people intend getting such drugs?

I know where to get T3 and T4 by the thousand but buying them this way would be totally illegal.

I would also have to question the legitimacy of any vet who prescribes such drugs for anything other than illness.

[Pete Smith]

Guy's,
1st off Chris the (vet) wasn't advocating the use of Thyroid derivatives, i use them and if you return to my original mail (@ the top of this list) it was for a greater understanding....not whole sale promotion (read it 1st!!).
There are falconers...probably on this list who "are experimenting / currently using T3 or T4 who could contribute to a "greater understanding".
Had mankind not been inquisitive we would still be going around in animal skins and living caves....falconry is no different from any other human activity it has advanced over the years, and will continue to do so.
You can bet when refridgerators...DOC's....telemetry....& Hybrids were 1st introduced it was given similar treatment.
I can remember some early comments when 1st imprinting a Gos in 1993.....i was mad??
I imagine there's more than the occasional imprinted Gos attending your local meets now. Pete.

[RabbitHawker]

Thanks Pete,
Nowhere in my posts did I adviocate the use of T3/T4, I was saying(Ithought clearly) that it should only be used where there was a mediacl reason, rather than convenience, and that there were risks with it's use, which some people may not have realised. Personally I think altered photoperiod is enough, but we seen to have lost the initial thread, but it doesn't look like manty others have even tried this. There is a large trade in black market drugs esp. in the cage bird circles, so I know well enough that these drugs will be available to some, what I was saying is think carefully before using them, why risk your bird's health.

[Ben C]

I was also under the impression that increased temperature had and effect on the moult. Or does the increased photoperiod therefore mean a rise in temp?

Should be completely under wraps from newbies like me HM :D :D .....but for reasons of personal growth and understanding I will continue with the tried and tested 'feed em up till they do it naturally' so I can learn.

Please expand on the desire for an early moult if you wouldn't mind. Is it purely for fitness and ease of early inexperienced prey? Or is it just a desire to fly them for a longer season!

[Hawkmaster]

Should be completely under wraps from newbies like me HM
Maybe, I worded it, too strongly? Careless people maybe?
Please expand on the desire for an early moult if you wouldn't mind. Is it purely for fitness and ease of early inexperienced prey? Or is it just a desire to fly them for a longer season!
All those reasons.

[RabbitHawker]

The moult is usually unaffected by temperature, but with a longer daylength the temperature will usually rise as well.

[Dave Whitt]

my gos is kept under lights and to date has not dropped any feathers,
which I have found strange as both my gyr / peri and gyr / saker where kept under lights in the same conditions and had always started moult by mid feb. It is the gosses first moult could this be making a differance ?

[ColdZero]

After giving it more thought, there are definite benefits, but there must be a downside. Like i said in my email, how can changing millions of years of evolution have nil effect? Hawks still have to kill the same number in the wild so its not an advantage thing for the young.
Maybe after the experimenting side is over i might consider it one day.

[Shaun Byrne]

Guy's,
1st off Chris the (vet) wasn't advocating the use of Thyroid derivatives, i use them and if you return to my original mail (@ the top of this list) it was for a greater understanding....not whole sale promotion (read it 1st!!).
There are falconers...probably on this list who "are experimenting / currently using T3 or T4 who could contribute to a "greater understanding".
Had mankind not been inquisitive we would still be going around in animal skins and living caves....falconry is no different from any other human activity it has advanced over the years, and will continue to do so.
You can bet when refridgerators...DOC's....telemetry....& Hybrids were 1st introduced it was given similar treatment.
I can remember some early comments when 1st imprinting a Gos in 1993.....i was mad??
I imagine there's more than the occasional imprinted Gos attending your local meets now. Pete.

I wasn't sugesting that Chris had advocated the use of T3/T4 and I DID read the original post.

I was just surprised that discussing the use of drugs that would have to be obtained through less than legal channels was being ignored when something as trivial as DVD copying was stamped on from a great height??

I think fridges, DOC, telemetry and Hybrids are in a slightly different bracket to illegal drug transactions!

IMHO drugs of any kind should never be used unless for health reasons, where will it stop? Maybe the next thing will be BOP on anabolic steroids????

[HawkMan69UK]

Maybe the next thing will be BOP on anabolic steroids????........do ya think that would work hawka :wink: :wink:

[IAmTheWeasel]

I have used the extended Photo period with great success two seasons ago. My passage RT finished her moult over 1 1/2 months earlier than most other RT's I kept her under lights inside the house from 7am to 11pm every day. She dropped lots of feathers quickly, in fact she lost all but two tail feathers in her tail at one point with two others about half grown in. I kept her fat and on a high nutrient diet during this period to avoid any abnormalities in the feathers and she moulted clean and almost complete aside from some upper wing coverts on each side. Another method that is gaining popularity(from what I hear) is to give a little bit of honey to the bird with it's food. I have not tried this myself, but I do know a guy that swears by it and said that the birds with kick out feathers real quickly.

[Pete Smith]

Ref the Q's regarding the reason for wanting to moult your bird out early
see below.
1) If you are fortunate enough to fly Grouse on the 12th, early is definitely better.

2) If your talking Gos'es the main motivation is to make a CONFIDENT hawk.
What ever method your using, getting going early on Corvids..rabbits etc will ensure success.
This permits you to selectivity go after harder setups, which does 2 things.
Mentally your hawk will advance rapidly, the early successes on easier quarry will ensure bigger efforts later.

The 2nd point is the harder the hawk trys the fitter, and stronger it will become (The snowballs rolling the right way!!)...artificial fitness programs ain't quite the same as being pushed to the limits doing what it was designed to do.
Ref the point regarding black market drugs, Thyroxine, and many other prescription drugs are freely available on the net, you probably have received spam from Internet drug suppliers already.

[RabbitHawker]

Stress will also play a role, first year birds can be slow to start, so either could play a role, as does diet and weight, and free lofting.

[Hawkmaster]

I know anabolic steriods work in chickens, I once had two cockrels in South Africa that were about 5kg each!

[Miguel Gomez]

Last year moulted 2 1st year sibling Tiercels one on the block - one freelofted.

Blocked bird hardly moulted into adult plumage, Freelofted virtually complete moult into adult plummage.

Maybe freelofting has a better benifit than all the lights and drugs and its free?!

[Shaun Byrne]

Maybe the next thing will be BOP on anabolic steroids????........do ya think that would work hawka :wink: :wink:

Not sure mate, dont know if BOP even have testosterone????

Give it a go and let me know when you have a 6lb HH then it wont **** me off as much when people ask "is that an Eagle" :D

[Shaun Byrne]

I know anabolic steriods work in chickens, I once had two cockrels in South Africa that were about 5kg each!

Dont tell me, they also had 3 legs and used to kick **** out of the neighbourhood dogs :D :D

[Hawkmaster]

Ahhh, Matt G is freelofting and do a moult now with his birds in an indoor mews with temperature and light control, so lets see where it take us?

[HawkMan69UK]

my first year gos has been freelofting in normal light for a i think 6 weeks more or less she dropped first primary 2weeks ago i have been in a few times and picked up 3 primaries and 2 secoundres hope she keeps it up :lol:

[OutFlying]

moulted p/r gosses out in a seclusion avairy and free lofted - ready in early August. Just fed on previous kills, no supplements or "magic potions". No outside contact with the gos until moult completed.

Weight dropped 2 weeks prior to take up - flying free and killing within 10 days.

[Dave Whitt]

do you lads free loft your imprints as well as your P/R birds if yes dont you find this has a detrimental effect on them mentally ?

[HawkMan69UK]

mine is pr but not in a seclusion aveiry she loves watching everything that goes on in the mad garden i have i think this why she is a lot calmer at fat weight when i go in always done it to all my birds just personal preference ..but like outflying said no potions or supplements just good all round food :lol: i can see what you mean with imprints because you spend all that time with them just to shut them away...does anyone do this???????????

[M & J Raptors]

do you lads free loft your imprints as well as your P/R birds if yes dont you find this has a detrimental effect on them mentally ?

Why would you think this, ?

[HawkMan69UK]

depends weather there in a seclusion aviery with little or no human contact... how do you moult yours out mick open or seclusion

[Dave Whitt]

well many people like I send all there time with there bird, I take mine to work every day, he sits on the back lawn, sits on the front lawn watching the trafic and the old dears walking past saying "oooh look at the eagle"he spend 3 hours per day being flown sits on the bach of the sofa in the evening, this is all that bird knows 100% social interaction if I was to put him in an aviery he would`nt understand he would probabally loose the bond and trust he has now with the whole family and become stresed because of the change in surroundings, it would be like leaving a 4 year old child in a room on its own all day.
Or Not ?

[M & J Raptors]

well many people like I send all there time with there bird, I take mine to work every day, he sits on the back lawn, sits on the front lawn watching the trafic and the old dears walking past saying "oooh look at the eagle"he spend 3 hours per day being flown sits on the bach of the sofa in the evening, this is all that bird knows 100% social interaction if I was to put him in an aviery he would`nt understand he would probabally loose the bond and trust he has now with the whole family and become stresed because of the change in surroundings, it would be like leaving a 4 year old child in a room on its own all day.
Or Not ?

No thats ********, once an imprint always an imprint,

[Pete Smith]

Way-to-go,
If the missus will put up with the ****, couldn't get a better
setup.
Pete.

[M & J Raptors]

depends weather there in a seclusion aviary with little or no human contact... how do you moult yours out mick open or seclusion

Hi Hawkman

Open aviary all the time, just leave them alone to moult, unless of course they show signs of breeding, we have had semen out of first year males, and we have had 4 young females produce young at ten months of age,
this year i got a young female that's laid 3 eggs and took semen,
so we always give them a Chance to breed,

[Dave Whitt]

I never said it would`nt be an imprint any longer, dont forget there are good imprints and bad imprints

[HawkMan69UK]

cheers mick i was just intersested

[M & J Raptors]

I never said it would`nt be an imprint any longer, dont forget there are good imprints and bad imprints

Do you know who your talking too young man :lol:

never seen a bad imprint only the **** on the other end of it, :)

[Dave Whitt]

Pete
I would say she does as she is told, but everyone would know it was B****S

[M & J Raptors]

Way-to-go,
If the missus will put up with the ****, couldn't get a better
setup.
Pete.

Smithy

I thought one time you were coming back to the real world of hawking, :lol: just a little rumour,

[Dave Whitt]

Do you know who your talking too young man :lol:

never seen a bad imprint only the **** on the other end of it, :)


I have seen a bad imprint but your right it did have a **** on the end of it :lol:

[Pete Smith]

Good evening Mr Kane,
Once I've shifted the goal posts far enough with the Perlins......I'll be back :wink:

[M & J Raptors]

Good evening Mr Kane,
Once I've shifted the goal posts far enough with the Perlins......I'll be back :wink:

OK ARNIE :lol:

Time you did, :shock:

[Gaz]

Dont tell me, they also had 3 legs
HM told me they had four legs, :!: Dont know what they tasted like though...couldnt catch "um :finga: