Why Eurepeans Oppose our Falconry Techniques

[Zzzaaahhhiiiddd]

many falconers replied me that sew or sealing of eyes of a passage bird after trapping is wrong so i post a new thread on this topic .Any one can train any passage wild trapped large eagle like steppe,imperial,etc without using eyes sewn techniques? or can practice well to hood a bird from its first day after trapping?
i think he will damage his bird sure and this method we use from many centuries and never found any harm or disease for bird if sealed correctly .

[PenelopeP]

I think people react on emotions. I dont think any of us have the right to criticise your techniques when we haven't seen them in person being done by a responsible person.

I would love to know more about this technique. How its carried out, pains caused (if any) how birds react to it and what methods you use to ensure no discomfort is caused or infections etc.

Im fascinated by it and its uses versus hooding etc.

[Matt King]

many falconers replied me that sew or sealing of eyes of a passage bird after trapping is wrong so i post a new thread on this topic .Any one can train any passage wild trapped large eagle like steppe,imperial,etc without using eyes sewn techniques? or can practice well to hood a bird from its first day after trapping?
i think he will damage his bird sure and this method we use from many centuries and never found any harm or disease for bird if sealed correctly .

This cant be right surely, who in there right mind would do this to a bird of prey.

[Pascoe]

As I said in previous thread...

Give me or any of the falconers on this forum a Trapped Imperial Eagle, and I bet we could train it to fly free within a few months... IMO the bird NEEDS to see what's going on around it, in order to become accustomed to it, thus improving the manning procedure.. What use is getting a bird used to being handled and touch, if it cannot see who or what is touching it or going on in it's surroundings?

I appreciate this is tradition and culture in your country... But there must come a time when the bird's welfare and Falconer's general 'morals' overcome years of tradition...

As Barry rightly said, hooding offers the same benefit as seeling, without risk of infection, pain and other health issues.. Not to mention the stress of the eagle not being able to open his eyes, which is a natural biological ability... At least with a hood he wil be able to open his eyes...

Not having a pop, just expressing my opinion...

[Ferret-Fanantic]

I think people react on emotions. I dont think any of us have the right to criticise your techniques when we haven't seen them in person being done by a responsible person.

I would love to know more about this technique. How its carried out, pains caused (if any) how birds react to it and what methods you use to ensure no discomfort is caused or infections etc.

Im fascinated by it and its uses versus hooding etc.

Exactly that.
Judgeing it when people havn't even seen it done is like an anti who has never been hunting being against hunting. ?

[PenelopeP]

This cant be right surely, who in there right mind would do this to a bird of prey.

As I said in previous thread...

Give me or any of the falconers on this forum a Trapped Imperial Eagle, and I bet we could train it to fly free within a few months... IMO the bird NEEDS to see what's going on around it, in order to become accustomed to it, thus improving the manning procedure.. What use is getting a bird used to being handled and touch, if it cannot see who or what is touching it or going on in it's surroundings?

I appreciate this is tradition and culture in your country... But there must come a time when the bird's welfare and Falconer's general 'morals' overcome years of tradition...

As Barry rightly said, hooding offers the same benefit as seeling, without risk of infection, pain and other health issues.. Not to mention the stress of the eagle not being able to open his eyes, which is a natural biological ability... At least with a hood he wil be able to open his eyes...

Not having a pop, just expressing my opinion...

As I said above, how can you form an opinion on something you know (and I mean really know) little to nothing about. Unless you have seen it first hand how can you pass comment??

[Matt King]

Exactly that.
Judgeing it when people havn't even seen it done is like an anti who has never been hunting being against hunting. ?

The old boys used to seal ferrets mouths shut to stop them killing rabbits, take it that doesnt go on anymore for obvious reasons, personaly think you must be pretty heartless to sew up mouths or eyes of any animal.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

many falconers replied me that sew or sealing of eyes of a passage bird after trapping is wrong so i post a new thread on this topic .Any one can train any passage wild trapped large eagle like steppe,imperial,etc without using eyes sewn techniques? or can practice well to hood a bird from its first day after trapping?
i think he will damage his bird sure and this method we use from many centuries and never found any harm or disease for bird if sealed correctly .

Zahid,

This forum is for opinions. Seeling is not a technique which can be practiced in the UK. Many people will not have seen or heard about the benefits of seeling and may just see it as cruel. Some may have only seen the 'bad' side of seeling.

We should be more tolerant of others techniques and traditions, rather than condeming them out of hand without knowledge and understanding.

[HallBeck]

... IMO the bird NEEDS to see what's going on around it, in order to become accustomed to it, thus improving the manning procedure.. What use is getting a bird used to being handled and touch, if it cannot see who or what is touching it or going on in it's surroundings?

...

So you oppose hooding too?

[Ferret-Fanantic]

The old boys used to seal ferrets mouths shut to stop them killing rabbits, take it that doesnt go on anymore for obvious reasons, personaly think you must be pretty heartless to sew up mouths or eyes of any animal.


Fact is a ferret needs a mouth to live. I can say its not my cup of tea to sew a birds eyelids, or a ferrets mouth, shut. But who am I to say something like that when I havn't a real idea of it?

[Matt King]

As I said above, how can you form an opinion on something you know (and I mean really know) little to nothing about. Unless you have seen it first hand how can you pass comment??

I dont need to know the technique to know that sewing a birds eyes shut is wrong.

[Barry]

I think people react on emotions. I dont think any of us have the right to criticise your techniques when we haven't seen them in person being done by a responsible person.

I would love to know more about this technique. How its carried out, pains caused (if any) how birds react to it and what methods you use to ensure no discomfort is caused or infections etc.

Im fascinated by it and its uses versus hooding etc.


Penny, I have seen this in action. I've seen birds being seeled, then trained through the seeled stage. It's a disgrace.
Barry

[Dave G]

i have not problems with the way you do thing as seeling the eyes on b.o.p has been past down from grandfathers to father to son in your countries ??? it was just the scratches you recieved that made me laugh as the way you put things i was looking for real wounds till i seen the pics lol

[Pascoe]

As I said above, how can you form an opinion on something you know (and I mean really know) little to nothing about. Unless you have seen it first hand how can you pass comment??

It is just that PP, an opinion.. Like I said, I am not belittling the procedure, I am merely offering my opinion.. Which, makes the world a more interesting place...

I greatly respect and am interested in the traditions of other cultures, but it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it...

I have wished no harm, nor have I made derogatory comments RE this procedure...

[PenelopeP]

The old boys used to seal ferrets mouths shut to stop them killing rabbits, take it that doesnt go on anymore for obvious reasons, personaly think you must be pretty heartless to sew up mouths or eyes of any animal.

Sorry but thats a rubbish comparison. Sealing a ferrets mouth shut is putting it in mortal danger down a rabbit hole and giving it no way of defending itself should it come upon a predator such as mink stoat badgers foxes etc. Or even a good beating from a rabbit.

I think people should stop being so close minded to others ways and traditions. You never know you may actually learn something.

Some of you sound almost as bad as anti's who think their beef comes from tesco's in those nice little packages :roll:

[Taffwall]

I have replied on your previous thread. I think its down to different countries cultures and traditions. Different countries and cultures tolerate or even encourage certain behaviour. Others do not.
I do not fully understand what is involved in the technique of 'sealing' a birds eyes. It would appear a needle and thread is used to pierce the eyelids of the eagle and pull the eye lids shut? Is that so?If not then i apologize.

Over the centuries tolerance levels of certain activities change. For example in Britain a few hundred years ago bull baiting,dog and cock fighting were common place and watched and enjoyed by many. These days it is considered barbaric and has been outlawed.
Animal rights and animal welfare is an emotive subject. As you are probably aware, here in the UK in the past few years new laws have emerged which have banned the pursuit of foxes, hare and deer by a pack of hounds. There are strong feelings on both sides.
Causing unnecessary pain and suffering to any animal is frowned upon by the vast majority here in the UK. That may also be the case in your country. But what one country/culture considers unnecessary suffering may not be the same in others.
I am quite sure that the vast majority of people here in the UK would consider sewing a bird of preys eyelids shut -for any reason- to be cruel and barbaric. It would not be tolerated. I am also certain that should someone be reported to the authorities for such a thing then a prosecution would be likely.
In your country the practice seems to be acceptable. This is why on an international forum such as this you will always find people opposing such techniques as you practice.
Personally i was angered and sickened to see this technique. I have never seen any thing like it and was unaware that it went on anywhere in the world. But i also have to add that if it is acceptable in your country then so be it. i can not argue with that.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Is anyone aware that birds of prey have no nerve endings in their eyelids?

[Hatchero]

The old boys used to seal ferrets mouths shut to stop them killing rabbits, take it that doesnt go on anymore for obvious reasons, personaly think you must be pretty heartless to sew up mouths or eyes of any animal.
it's not the same thing. passage and haggard eagles die from stress(asper related to stress) rather more often than not. seeling allows a stress free critical period when transitioning from wild to non wild. i would not dream of NOT seeling a fresh trapped eagle to do otherwise is to risk its death. it think most of the guys here that are experienced with passage and haggard eagles routinely seel fresh trapped birds.
Jim

[PenelopeP]

Penny, I have seen this in action. I've seen birds being seeled, then trained through the seeled stage. It's a disgrace.
Barry

Is it always the case, or was it just rubbish people actually doing it? As I said, I am really interested in this and what it entails.

I have to say, Im looking at that picture of the Eagle, and have to say he doesnt seem any worse for having had his eyes seasled at all. His eyes dont look damaged in any way, they dont look sore, or infected etc. And he seems in pretty bloody great condition to me.

[Hacker]

Zahid,

This forum is for opinions. Seeling is not a technique which can be practiced in the UK. Many people will not have seen or heard about the benefits of seeling and may just see it as cruel. Some may have only seen the 'bad' side of seeling.

We should be more tolerant of others techniques and traditions, rather than condeming them out of hand without knowledge and understanding.

Hattie my views exactly,
seeling is not a practise i would undertake but then we should try to educate each other through discussion rather than condemnation.
If Zahid is lambasted on this forum he may just choose to leave and be none the wiser.
Thanks
Richard

[Matt King]

Penny, I have seen this in action. I've seen birds being seeled, then trained through the seeled stage. It's a disgrace.
Barry

here, here, just because its been going on for years doesnt make it right, a lot of archaic practices are now no longer used because of welfare issues. Have a good look at the bird on your fist and could you have honestly sewn its eyes up when you were training it

[RyanP]

many falconers replied me that sew or sealing of eyes of a passage bird after trapping is wrong so i post a new thread on this topic .Any one can train any passage wild trapped large eagle like steppe,imperial,etc without using eyes sewn techniques? or can practice well to hood a bird from its first day after trapping?
i think he will damage his bird sure and this method we use from many centuries and never found any harm or disease for bird if sealed correctly .


I think a hood works just as well. Would you like your eyes sewn shut

[PenelopeP]

here, here, just because its been going on for years doesnt make it right, a lot of archaic practices are now no longer used because of welfare issues. Have a good look at the bird on your fist and could you have honestly sewn its eyes up when you were training it

But he wasnt a wild trapped eagle. Hes a p/r goshawk. A world of difference. You really should learn to be more tolerant and open minded to others ways than just come out with answers like " I dont need to see it to know its wrong" How silly does that make you look?

[PenelopeP]

I think a hood works just as well. Would you like your eyes sewn shut

Another well informed answer :roll:

[Pascoe]

I think the main problem here is emotion.. People see a needle, thread, an 'innocent eagle's' eyelids.. And alarm bells start ringing...

The fact is, i should say that very few people will even think about this topic in a week's time.. So all this emotion is just un-educated talk...

I think there is a much higher ethical problem with American Falconers using live prey to train their birds with....

[Ferret-Fanantic]

I think a hood works just as well. Would you like your eyes sewn shut
Would like to be tethered to a perch?
Would you like to have restricted acess of where you could walk, run etc?
I could think of much more to put here.
"Its difficult to put humans thoughts into a birds mind, isnt it?"
Not to mention the fact (that has already been stated) an bird dosent have nerve endings in its eyelids, we do!

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I think a hood works just as well. Would you like your eyes sewn shut

But we are not discussing humans but birds of prey, who's psychology and physiology is such that we can take them and train them to hunt for us.

If you are going to get into anthropomorphism then there is no convincing you.

[Hatchero]

it is amazing to me that all these folks with absolutly no experience with the management of fresh caught passage and haggard birds have so much to say about how it is best done. i guess most of these folks would rather that their fresh trapped eagle (or gos or gyr) die of stress due to their overactive sense of moral certitude than to do what is actually best for the bird.
jim

[Matt King]

Sorry but thats a rubbish comparison. Sealing a ferrets mouth shut is putting it in mortal danger down a rabbit hole and giving it no way of defending itself should it come upon a predator such as mink stoat badgers foxes etc. Or even a good beating from a rabbit.

I think people should stop being so close minded to others ways and traditions. You never know you may actually learn something.

Some of you sound almost as bad as anti's who think their beef comes from tesco's in those nice little packages :roll:

Sorry if I appear opinionated about this subject, it was the act of sealing a ferrets mouth not the result that i was trying to get across. Personaly i could not use this practice, however this is a forum and its just my opinion.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

it is amazing to me that all these folks with absolutly no experience with the management of fresh caught passage and haggard birds have so much to say about how it is best done. i guess most of these folks would rather that their fresh trapped eagle (or gos or gyr) die of stress due to their overactive sense of moral certitude than to do what is actually best for the bird.
jim

Jim - its anthropomorphism pure and simple. Its the same reason some men will not get male dogs or cats 'fixed'.

[Barry]

I felt I had put a balanced, non-aggressive, non vindictive set of arguments on the original thread, which have all been deleted. I'm too bloody lazy to type them again, but maybe a Mod can move them to this thread.

Barry

[PenelopeP]

it is amazing to me that all these folks with absolutly no experience with the management of fresh caught passage and haggard birds have so much to say about how it is best done. i guess most of these folks would rather that their fresh trapped eagle (or gos or gyr) die of stress due to their overactive sense of moral certitude than to do what is actually best for the bird.
jim

Very well said. An EDUCATED answer, from someone who actually KNOWS what happens how its done, and the pitfalls of doing it other ways versus doing it this way.

[RyanP]

it is amazing to me that all these folks with absolutly no experience with the management of fresh caught passage and haggard birds have so much to say about how it is best done. i guess most of these folks would rather that their fresh trapped eagle (or gos or gyr) die of stress due to their overactive sense of moral certitude than to do what is actually best for the bird.
jim


i suppose ur right

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I felt I had put a balanced, non-aggressive, non vindictive set of arguments on the original thread, which have all been deleted. I'm too bloody lazy to type them again, but maybe a Mod can move them to this thread.

Barry

pmsl Barry - at least you are honest :lol:

[Yorky]

I dont think its a case of Europeans opposing your techinques, its a small vocal minority that sadly wish to express their views without being considerate of the history of falconry within your culture, and without knowing the facts.....

[HallBeck]

But whats wrong with a hood it seems to work just as well?

Does it? I have no experience of wild trapped eagles but as i undersrtand it sealing allows a gradual opening - like being half hooded. Its this that cuts down on stress - which will be much higher in a wild bird than a captive bred one.

I would rather see hoods used to - but its a big world and its the differences that make it so interesting.

[Taffwall]

it is amazing to me that all these folks with absolutly no experience with the management of fresh caught passage and haggard birds have so much to say about how it is best done. i guess most of these folks would rather that their fresh trapped eagle (or gos or gyr) die of stress due to their overactive sense of moral certitude than to do what is actually best for the bird.
jim


I dont think anyone is saying how it is best done. They are just stating they disagree with the technique.
You go on to say about moral certitude and doing whats best for the bird- Personally, if sealing a birds eyes shut with needle and thread is the only way to successfuly train and fly a trapped passage or haggard bird then i would never trap one in the first place.

[Barry]

Very well said. An EDUCATED answer, from someone who actually KNOWS what happens how its done, and the pitfalls of doing it other ways versus doing it this way.

Problem is, some of us DO have those experiences with wild birds of prey and see the ups and downs of all the arguments and seeling just don't stack! I have watched a number of Golden Eagles seeled. It is not necessary on any level and I fail to understand; in the light of what we can do, and what we understand how anybody can even attempt to justify the practice of seeling.

Barry

[PenelopeP]

But whats wrong with a hood it seems to work just as well?

As someone has already mentioned when explaining a little of the technique, a hood has to come off daily, birds will need to cast etc (unless fed no castings at all) With this technique everything can continue on as normal. Why should they change their traditions and ways of doing things becuase some small minded people think its cruel. Antis think what we do is cruel. Are you going to stop doing it?? The pain quarry feels when your bird slams into it and begins plucking it before you get there is so much more than the birds will feel having their eyes sealed shut. People who use this technique have already explained that the birds suffer much more stress and die of stress related asper when this technique IS NOT used.

[Hatchero]

But whats wrong with a hood it seems to work just as well?

hoods are fine, after a few days, but they are certainly not the same. seeled birds come through the process tamer and are on the wing faster. all these mostly fresh trapped merlins in this picture are seeled (with the exception of the one on my fist thats an eyass) most all these birds were flying on game within two to three weeks.

[PenelopeP]

Problem is, some of us DO have those experiences with wild birds of prey and see the ups and downs of all the arguments and seeling just don't stack! I have watched a number of Golden Eagles seeled. It is not necessary on any level and I fail to understand; in the light of what we can do, and what we understand how anybody can even attempt to justify the practice of seeling.

Barry

Barry. My reply was not aimed at you. It was aimed at the "ive never seen it nor do I know anything about it but Im going to dismiss it out of hand as cruel anyway" brigade.

My opinion is, people all have their own ways of doing things whether we like it or not. I just chose to try and understand a little more about it, unlike some of the others on here.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I have also seen and practiced the initial stages of training with sealing, and it amazed me how quick and calmly the bird was manned down, with no bating or stress, and the actual sealing did not look cruel or bad for the bird at all

[Zzzaaahhhiiiddd]

never oppose western falconry techniques we all use hoods and i have many more old hoods,here are some
Infect many Europeans are new to falconry and not know well that it is our old method we use generation by generation however i never ask any person that he do this because this procedure may be harmfully for birds eyes if not sealed carefully and after one week we must hood our birds.





so plz enjoy some rare and old hoods now that you can realize that what type of falconry we have or did in past

[Pascoe]

hoods are fine, after a few days, but they are certainly not the same. seeled birds come through the process tamer and are on the wing faster. all these mostly fresh trapped merlins in this picture are seeled (with the exception of the one on my fist thats an eyass) most all these birds were flying on game within two to three weeks.
http://photos.imageevent.com/teita/jim/websize/DSC00004.JPG

Forgive me if this is stupid... But if they are seeled, why are they hooded?

[MST]

I dont think anyone is saying how it is best done. They are just stating they disagree with the technique.
You go on to say about moral certitude and doing whats best for the bird- Personally, if sealing a birds eyes shut with needle and thread is the only way to successfuly train and fly a trapped passage or haggard bird then i would never trap one in the first place.


I've trapped and flown passage RT's, and seen freshly trapped and trained Prairies, Goshawks, Merlins, Coops..etc. Never seen anyone sew their eyes shut in order to train them. They all were/are good hunters. They all have the stress of being captured by "Aliens" at first. Overly stressed birds can be released, and another trapped...

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Forgive me if this is stupid... But if they are seeled, why are they hooded?

The sealing is only used trough the very first days of the training to reduce stress, as soon as the falcons eyes are half opened (the thread is lowered after a few days) they start hooding the bird so when the stitches are removed after 3-7 days the bird is both manned and hood proof

[Hatchero]

Forgive me if this is stupid... But if they are seeled, why are they hooded?

the hooding is a gradual process. this allows one to work on getting a hood perfectly fit to the bird without trauma. the seel is off in a week or so and by then the bird will be well made to the hood.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

In fact a big UK breeder is now practicing sealing on all the gyrfalcons (trained in another country) to reduce stress and indirectly asperigillosis

[Shaft666]

Things like this will always provoke an emotional response in a country like ours where the thought of doing such a thing is inconceivable. However many of the UK members on here were quite happy to cut the tails off and pull the dew claws out of puppies (I nearly said without batting an eyelid!) without a thought when it was still legal and many still protest loudly against the banning of it. Probably horrifies many people in many parts of the world but is it any better or worse?
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the process but we should learn all the facts before condemning it and respect other peoples cultures and accept they have different ways of doing things.

Paul

[Zzzaaahhhiiiddd]

The sealing is only used trough the very first days of the training to reduce stress, as soon as the falcons eyes are half opened (the thread is lowered after a few days) they start hooding the bird so when the stitches are removed after 3-7 days the bird is both manned and hood proof
thanks for nice explanation

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Things like this will always provoke an emotional response in a country like ours where the thought of doing such a thing is inconceivable. However many of the UK members on here were quite happy to cut the tails off and pull the dew claws out of puppies (I nearly said without batting an eyelid!) without a thought when it was still legal and many still protest loudly against the banning of it. Probably horrifies many people in many parts of the world but is it any better or worse?
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the process but we should learn all the facts before condemning it and respect other peoples cultures and accept they have different ways of doing things.

Paul

A very very nice and respectful post!

[Zzzaaahhhiiiddd]

As I said in previous thread...

Give me or any of the falconers on this forum a Trapped Imperial Eagle, and I bet we could train it to fly free within a few months... IMO the bird NEEDS to see what's going on around it, in order to become accustomed to it, thus improving the manning procedure.. What use is getting a bird used to being handled and touch, if it cannot see who or what is touching it or going on in it's surroundings?

I appreciate this is tradition and culture in your country... But there must come a time when the bird's welfare and Falconer's general 'morals' overcome years of tradition...

As Barry rightly said, hooding offers the same benefit as seeling, without risk of infection, pain and other health issues.. Not to mention the stress of the eagle not being able to open his eyes, which is a natural biological ability... At least with a hood he wil be able to open his eyes...

Not having a pop, just expressing my opinion...
ok get a citis passport i will send you a wild or come here if bird injured its wings or shoulders or break its feather then what you can say?plz do not mind its a just discussions forum and we should respect each other views

[Jan1]

As I said above, how can you form an opinion on something you know (and I mean really know) little to nothing about. Unless you have seen it first hand how can you pass comment??
I hold a valid and, hopefully, informed opinion on many controversial subjects - slavery, woman wearing the burqua, dog fighting, doping, female circumcision and all manner of things, including the seeling of bop -all of which I have not seen at first hand. Like everyone else on this forum, my opinion is equally as valid as yours, who, as I understand it, hasn't seen seeling first hand either.

In the days when we were legally allowed to take birds from the wild, which isn't that long ago, I believe that seeling wasn't common practice in the UK & if so, we presumably managed to get by without it?

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I hold a valid and, hopefully, informed opinion on many controversial subjects - slavery, woman wearing the burqua, dog fighting, doping, female circumcision and all manner of things, including the seeling of bop -all of which I have not seen at first hand. Like everyone else on this forum, my opinion is equally as valid as yours, who, as I understand it, hasn't seen seeling first hand either.

In the days when we were legally allowed to take birds from the wild, which isn't that long ago, I believe that seeling wasn't common practice in the UK & if so, we presumably managed to get by without it?

Offcourse you can train a bird without sealing, i dont think anyone is saying the opposite, but it reduce stress and on sensitive birds like gyrs and some eagles it also reduces stress related diseases.

[Pascoe]

ok get a citis passport i will send you a wild or come here if bird injured its wings or shoulders or break its feather then what you can say?plz do not mind its a just discussions forum and we should respect each other views

I appreciate that... i was just saying... I feel that we could train the eagle using other methods...

I was not knocking your tradition, I was just expressing my opinion...

Who am I to say it's wrong? The world would be a boring place if we were all the same...

[Zzzaaahhhiiiddd]

I appreciate that... i was just saying... I feel that we could train the eagle using other methods...

I was not knocking your tradition, I was just expressing my opinion...

Who am I to say it's wrong? The world would be a boring place if we were all the same...
ok please read my new thread "why oppose our falconry "you can see some old hoods

[ReluctantTwitcher]

it is amazing to me that all these folks with absolutly no experience with the management of fresh caught passage and haggard birds have so much to say about how it is best done. i guess most of these folks would rather that their fresh trapped eagle (or gos or gyr) die of stress due to their overactive sense of moral certitude than to do what is actually best for the bird.
jim

Forgive me Jim, but is it not true that falconers in plenty of other countries where this method is not used have been successfully training passage eagles, goshawks and gyrs without having them die of stress? I've never heard or read that passage goshawks were sealed on a regular basis in Europe for instance. And what about the Kazakhs, do/did they usually seal their eagles? (Genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic).

/Magnus

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Forgive me Jim, but is it not true that falconers in plenty of other countries where this method is not used have been successfully training passage eagles, goshawks and gyrs without having them die of stress? I've never heard or read that passage goshawks were sealed on a regular basis in Europe for instance. And what about the Kazakhs, do/did they usually seal their eagles? (Genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic).

/Magnus

As I said above Magnus, no one says it cant be done, but it reduce stress and minimize the risk for stress related diseases.

[Hatchero]

Forgive me Jim, but is it not true that falconers in plenty of other countries where this method is not used have been successfully training passage eagles, goshawks and gyrs without having them die of stress? I've never heard or read that passage goshawks were sealed on a regular basis in Europe for instance. And what about the Kazakhs, do/did they usually seal their eagles? (Genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic).

/Magnus

i think you will find that those that fly many passage and haggard eagles and goshawks, not to mention gyrs, have not had a stellar record of keeping them alive using a hood only approach, although most folks now days load their birds up with all sorts of drugs to stave off the opportunistic diseases that are somewhat likely to crop up. i know what i think is the better approach and think i will stick with the method that works for me--it does not include toxic drugs. as for the kazakhs i have no idea but i would be surprised if they do not use the seel.

[Raseni]

I find it interesting to read about in this thread, but fact is that it does not matter whether or not the bird it hurt or not, or if it has nerveending in the lids or not.......fact is that in a modern world, where falconry is an ancient art, it is procedures like sewn eyes, cut primary on pigeons and so forth that is not making falconry look any better. The green organisation and the genrel public do not understand there ways, and no one can expect them too. But it is the generel public that we as falconers need to keep informing about falconry, because that is the only way we will keep this beautiful ancient tradition between man and raptor alive. And things like sewn eyes is just going to make falconry look really really bad and cruel.

No one can argue better for sewn eyes than a hood, when it comes to explaining the reason for depriving raptors from daylight to man them.

I respect the old ancient way for sure, but I am also aware of new insights we as people get from time that pass.

just my 2 cents.

cheers
Rasmus

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I find it interesting to read about in this thread, but fact is that it does not matter whether or not the bird it hurt or not, or if it has nerveending in the lids or not.......fact is that in a modern world, where falconry is an ancient art, it is procedures like sewn eyes, cut primary on pigeons and so forth that is not making falconry look any better. The green organisation and the genrel public do not understand there ways, and no one can expect them too. But it is the generel public that we as falconers need to keep informing about falconry, because that is the only way we will keep this beautiful ancient tradition between man and raptor alive. And things like sewn eyes is just going to make falconry look really really bad and cruel.

No one can argue better for sewn eyes than a hood, when it comes to explaining the reason for depriving raptors from daylight to man them.

I respect the old ancient way for sure, but I am also aware of new insights we as people get from time that pass.

just my 2 cents.

cheers
Rasmus

But thats the same with tethering, the amount of people i meet that thinks it is horrible and cruel to tether birds in there legs, still many birds would not be suitable in an aviary and would be better off teathred.

[Raseni]

well from an animal welfare point of view, I think it much easier to justify to put leather anklets and a leash on a bird, than pierce it´s eyelids.....don´t you? maybe it´s just me. But it is things like this that will be very bad for falconry in the western world, again along sewing pigeons eyes, and so forth.

cheers
Rasmus

[Matt King]

But he wasnt a wild trapped eagle. Hes a p/r goshawk. A world of difference. You really should learn to be more tolerant and open minded to others ways than just come out with answers like " I dont need to see it to know its wrong" How silly does that make you look?


I have trained passage and haggard accipiters with good results, my own opinion of not wanting to sew the eyes of bop and thinking that it is wrong does not make me look "silly", just biased. Maybe in fact it produces faster and/or better results, it is for me just morally wrong. I do not wish to appear blinkered in my views and much has been learnt from the traditional practices. This is perhaps a practice where strong opinions are formed and few will sit on the fence, some see their bird as a hunting partner and part of their life and very much loved and the idea of seeling abhorant. Others will see it as a training technique to produce a working bird. It is not my place to judge others and I will leave it to open minded individuals to find what sits right with them. :oops:

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

well from an animal welfare point of view, I think it much easier to justify to put leather anklets and a leash on a bird, than pierce it´s eyelids.....don´t you? maybe it´s just me. But it is things like this that will be very bad for falconry in the western world, again along sewing pigeons eyes, and so forth.

cheers
Rasmus


Its like everything, if its carefully explained its normaly not a problem. Its not practiced in the UK anyway so we dont really have to explain it.

[Greg]

Well as far as I'm concerned you shot yourself in the foot with your first sentence! Half the people on this forum are beginers who have little or no experience of training anything let alone a wild trapped eagle! Most of the other members although they may be excellent falconers have had little or no experience of any passage birds. Its really only a few people who have been flying birds for many years that have had any experience of any passage birds (I'm on about UK falconers here)! I note that some of the falconers who are supporting the seeling of birds are from the USA where passage birds are commonly taken and they have more experience. We all have a lot to learn from each other and this is not going to be accomplished if we just attack people from other cultures because they do things differently. You may not agree with what they do but you should respect their views, ideas and then make you mind up in an informed and educated manner. You obviously know very little about the subject from the question you asked about why hood if the bird is seeled. Just seems to be that like many other you come out with a knee jerk reaction.

As I said in previous thread...

Give me or any of the falconers on this forum a Trapped Imperial Eagle, and I bet we could train it to fly free within a few months... IMO the bird NEEDS to see what's going on around it, in order to become accustomed to it, thus improving the manning procedure.. What use is getting a bird used to being handled and touch, if it cannot see who or what is touching it or going on in it's surroundings?

I appreciate this is tradition and culture in your country... But there must come a time when the bird's welfare and Falconer's general 'morals' overcome years of tradition...

As Barry rightly said, hooding offers the same benefit as seeling, without risk of infection, pain and other health issues.. Not to mention the stress of the eagle not being able to open his eyes, which is a natural biological ability... At least with a hood he wil be able to open his eyes...

Not having a pop, just expressing my opinion...

[Sean White]

For those that see only for a moment....... why delete my words?????????????????????????

This little lady is getting above her station :)

[Hacker]

It is really down to individual countries and cultures really.
a bit like the old baggie debate, we shouldnt do it here in the uk but elsewhere it goes on and probably here as well if the truth is to be realised.
We have to be tolerant of differnt values of the different cultures.
I am sure Zahid is not telling you to seel your birds here in the uk but is just offering you his experiences.
Falconry is cruel as it encompasses nature and nature does not have emotions, just objectives, ie survival but we are all happy to watch national geographic beam it into our sitting rooms.
I think a reality check and stand back and really evaluate what you are telling this guy is in order.
Just have a real long hard look at all your falconry experiences and tell me you are squeaky clean?
I know i cannot!
Richard

[Raseni]

sorry I think you are being a bit blueeyed when thinking it is no problem to explain to people it is ok to pierce the birds eyes, and sew them together. Sorry I think you are beeing a bit naive.....I live in a educating people in a zoo, where I teach about many things, and one thing people are disgusted about, is the unnessesary torment of animals. Which I consider this to be. sorry.

I think that sewing of the eyes is absolutely unnessesary, as we have better alternatives, concerning the welfare of the animal, and those should be used instead.

I mean we don´t hang people anymore either, or burn witches on the market, we have alternatives now which we find better and more humane.

You can´t ingore the fact that this leans towards animal cruelty. I am quite sure the birds have nerves in the eyelids, as the blink when something irritates them, this happens through impulses in the axons, which only occur in the nervesystem. And pain and reflexes travels as electrical impulses, which must mean the bird also feels the needle through the lid.

In my eyes this is not a humane way....but call me odd....

cheers
Rasmus

[Raseni]

bu as I started my first post, interesting to read this thread and also Zahid´s way, but it doesn´t fit into the western way in my opinion. I think the hood can do the job just as good. they do the same things, deprive the bird from light, and impressions, and can easily be used for passage birds, eg. US falconers.


cheers
Rasmus

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

sorry I think you are being a bit blueeyed when thinking it is no problem to explain to people it is ok to pierce the birds eyes, and sew them together. Sorry I think you are beeing a bit naive.....I live in a educating people in a zoo, where I teach about many things, and one thing people are disgusted about, is the unnessesary torment of animals. Which I consider this to be. sorry.

I think that sewing of the eyes is absolutely unnessesary, as we have better alternatives, concerning the welfare of the animal, and those should be used instead.

I mean we don´t hang people anymore either, or burn witches on the market, we have alternatives now which we find better and more humane.

You can´t ingore the fact that this leans towards animal cruelty. I am quite sure the birds have nerves in the eyelids, as the blink when something irritates them, this happens through impulses in the axons, which only occur in the nervesystem. And pain and reflexes travels as electrical impulses, which must mean the bird also feels the needle through the lid.

In my eyes this is not a humane way....but call me odd....

cheers
Rasmus

Dear Rasmus, I have also worked in a zoo educating people and as I said its not really an issue anyway as its not practiced in neither Dennmark or England.
I am not saying I am right but I build my opinion on both seeing and using this method myself, as many other falconers has, Its hard to have a opinion on something you have not seen or practised.
Sealing is practised mainly on highly stress sensetive birds and only for a short time to reduce stress related diseases, if you read this whole thread you will probably find the information interessting.

[Hacker]

sorry I think you are being a bit blueeyed when thinking it is no problem to explain to people it is ok to pierce the birds eyes, and sew them together. Sorry I think you are beeing a bit naive.....I live in a educating people in a zoo, where I teach about many things, and one thing people are disgusted about, is the unnessesary torment of animals. Which I consider this to be. sorry.

I think that sewing of the eyes is absolutely unnessesary, as we have better alternatives, concerning the welfare of the animal, and those should be used instead.

I mean we don´t hang people anymore either, or burn witches on the market, we have alternatives now which we find better and more humane.

You can´t ingore the fact that this leans towards animal cruelty. I am quite sure the birds have nerves in the eyelids, as the blink when something irritates them, this happens through impulses in the axons, which only occur in the nervesystem. And pain and reflexes travels as electrical impulses, which must mean the bird also feels the needle through the lid.

In my eyes this is not a humane way....but call me odd....

cheers
Rasmus

But you are happy enough to cage animals and birds and deprive them of their freedom?

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

bu as I started my first post, interesting to read this thread and also Zahid´s way, but it doesn´t fit into the western way in my opinion. I think the hood can do the job just as good. they do the same things, deprive the bird from light, and impressions, and can easily be used for passage birds, eg. US falconers.


cheers
Rasmus

Hood and sealing is completely different, and one dont outrule the other, rather the opposite, a sealed bird will take to the hood perfectly after the seals are removed. With a hood you get the "shock syndome'' when the hood is removed from a wild falcon, and the birds fear and stress level is running on maximum. By slowely lowering the thread day by day until the seals are removed (about a week) the bird is slowly getting used to see more and more of its enviroment, it prevents bating and stress until the bird is manned, something you can not do with the taking on and off a hood

[Raseni]

I am happy to encourage animal welfare. I am happy to cage and animal in 5m x 3m x 3m aviary, as the law requires for the birds here in Denmark. I am not happy to encourage any animal that is threatened in any way in nature to be caged for any other purpose than breeding programs for reeintroduction!

As far as caging a captive bred bird, this bird has never felt freedom, and I think most birds have a lot healthier, stable life in captivity, as there is an abundance of food, less illness and so on.

I am also not happy to encourage any harm done to animals, when there are other options that will do the job!

cheers
Rasmus

[Hatchero]

"

I mean we don´t hang people anymore either, or burn witches on the market, we have alternatives now which we find better and more humane.... "


cheers
Rasmus

well i know you all are way more civilized than we here in the US but we do still hang people---often for good reason.
Jim

[Hacker]

I am happy to encourage animal welfare. I am happy to cage and animal in 5m x 3m x 3m aviary, as the law requires for the birds here in Denmark. I am not happy to encourage any animal that is threatened in any way in nature to be caged for any other purpose than breeding programs for reeintroduction!

As far as caging a captive bred bird, this bird has never felt freedom, and I think most birds have a lot healthier, stable life in captivity, as there is an abundance of food, less illness and so on.

I am also not happy to encourage any harm done to animals, when there are other options that will do the job!

cheers
Rasmus

You say you are happy to cage an animal according to denmark laws?
are they the same laws worldwide, i think not!!!
P

You have answered your own question, LOL

[Raseni]

of course you do almost the same procedure with a hood, that is up to the individual falconer. You can man in room, with almost no light. must produce the same effect, when the light is so dim, the bird can hardly see. At least for day active species?

[Raseni]

yes I am happy to gage them according to the way in Denmark, as I find these regulations to be tolerable for the birds. I am not saying I want things to be the same all over the world, definately not..........But I am just saying that there is a big difference between sewing and caging, at least in my part of the wolrd:yawinkle:

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

of course you do almost the same procedure with a hood, that is up to the individual falconer. You can man in room, with almost no light. must produce the same effect, when the light is so dim, the bird can hardly see. At least for day active species?


Its still not the same and it will take a lot longer, i have also used this method. With the manning of complete wild birds, especially with speices sensetive to aspergulioses (still dont know the spelling), it is much safer to use sealing, like on passage eagles or gyrfalcons.
far to many gyrfalcons die of asper picked up in the early stages of training due to stress, the more you can reduce the time period between wild and tame the less risk for diseases.

[ReluctantTwitcher]

As I said above Magnus, no one says it cant be done, but it reduce stress and minimize the risk for stress related diseases.

Hi Sara,

I'm not doubting that it reduces stress, but is it really the only technique or method there is that minimizes stress and stress-related diseases to this level? This is where my doubt lies. If alternative methods can achieve the same end result as sealing, I don't see the need for it nor do I feel it can be justified - even if the other methods should happen to be slightly less convenient and/or more time-consuming. Much like I don't approve of the use of baggies these days, now that other tried and tested methods are available. Other people are of course entitled to having a different opinion, just like I have the right to have mine.

/Magnus

PS. Sorry to hear about the falcons you lost. I hope you are able to get them back eventually. Apart from this, I hope all is well with you & Mark and that you had a good breeding season. Please give Mark my best regards.

[Hacker]

yes I am happy to gage them according to the way in Denmark, as I find these regulations to be tolerable for the birds. I am not saying I want things to be the same all over the world, definately not..........But I am just saying that there is a big difference between sewing and caging, at least in my part of the wolrd:yawinkle:

But that is your opinion and the laws of your country, zahid has his opinion and the laws of his country, can you not understand that?
We dont agree with all countries and laws and that is an ongoing debate between governments but not one that should be a personal attack as the poor guy is doing nothing wrong in his eyes or laws?

[HallBeck]

aspergulioses (still dont know the spelling),

Just call it asper - easier to spell and everyone knows what you mean! :)

[Raseni]

Jim...

you still hang people? well, learnt something new today. I thought the US did not hang people.only lethal injection and the chain.

Was not trying to be offensive in any way when stated the hanging, I just find it a bit old fashioned.

cheers
Rasmus

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

yes I am happy to gage them according to the way in Denmark, as I find these regulations to be tolerable for the birds. I am not saying I want things to be the same all over the world, definately not..........But I am just saying that there is a big difference between sewing and caging, at least in my part of the wolrd:yawinkle:

Without being offensive, the reason you see it as a big difference is most likely because dennmark has very little experiance with passage and wild birds, as its not legal, and so you will most likely have no experiance of sealing. Its easy to judge from something that might look bad in your eyes, but if you have not actually seen it its a opinion based on emotions rather then knowledge.

[Barry]

Well as far as I'm concerned you shot yourself in the foot with your first sentence! Half the people on this forum are beginers who have little or no experience of training anything let alone a wild trapped eagle! Most of the other members although they may be excellet falconers have had little or no experience of any passage birds. Its really only a few people who have been flying birds for many years that have had any experience of any passage birds (I'm on about UK falconers here)! I note that some of the falconers who are supporting the seeling of birds are from the USA where passage birds are commonly taken and they have more experience. We all have a lot to learn from each other and this is not going to be accomplished if we just attack people from other cultures because they do things differently. You may not agree with what they do but you should respect their views, ideas and then make you mind up in an informed and educated manner. You obviously know very little about the subject from the question you asked about why hood if the bird is seeled. Just seems to be that like many other you come out with a knee jerk reaction.

I feel like I'm typing everything twice here, so for the sake of my poor typing fingers, this is my last input.

I have experience with wild taken birds. Including 5 Eagles.
I have experience with re-habbing wild injured birds. Including Eagles in addition to the above.
I have experience with seeled birds in addition to the above.
I have witnessed multiple eagles being seeled.
I have experience of asper senstive birds.I am currently flying my 11 year old Gyr who I have owned from the start and has just had 5 years in a chamber - no apser. The male who is currently in a chamber is 12. No asper. Neither seem any worse for not being seeled, including the during the journey from the US to the UK.

A wild taken Golden Eagle for example has the same fear reaction to people and new environments as a captive bred eagle bred in full seclusion and taken at a passager age. I have just such an eagle. Not seeled and in fact never hooded. She is nearly 9 now. She has never been given sporanox.

The wild eagle in low condition does suffer additional stress I admit, however, a dose of sporanox and a short period of heavy feeding through a hood with no casting given is a much better alternative to seeling.

My first point relative to stress is, if asper is gonna kick in, I see nothing that will bring it on as fast as the act of seeling.

In one year I saw several US eagles seeled in Wyoming while I was there trapping. Of those seeled, all died of asper' except one which was lost. So the argument that seeling helps prevent asper holds absolutely no water whatsoever. Incidentally, the one that was lost was not seeled.

The justification about the sutures being loosened to slowly allow light in as a falsehood. Fact is, the eyelids either side of the suture begin to sag as they dry out. This lets light and images in. The sutures are loosened to stop the eyelid tearing around the hole. This of course does let in a little more light.
The light stages can be replicated using hoods with ever looser gapes.

The hood is used extensively while the bird is seeled. This of course does help 'make' the bird to the hood, but it is also a precaution to make up for the sagging eyelids.

I'm not scientifically sure of the fact that birds have no nerve supply to the eyelids. It may be so, but I don't have the facts. however, I am sure though that no anaesthetic is offered during the seeling process.

I have never seen antibiotic offered as a precaution against later infection. As has been said earlier in the original thread, birds are presented at falcon hospitals in ME with infections related to seeling.

Add all this up and you will see that a justification of 'asper prevention' is the most incredibly insupportable reason you could give for seeling. In fact 'maintaining tradition' is probably more pertinent - at least it's true!

We know better. We should understand better. We should move on, protect our sport and let archaic and un-necessary traditions die.

As a final address to the tethering point. We can discuss the issue about tethering a bird of prey by the legs and its justifiability when we accept it is unjustified to lead a dog by the neck via a check chain.

Barry

[Sean White]

Just a few words from humble me at the risk of having a post deleted...Again!

Why let this discussion continue..? admittedly this is an Eastern practice and also an Eastern question and for sure I'm the first to admit that we should all accept other ideas and practices... So why not accept mine ....mods?
A hood serves the same purpose as seeling and also gives the same results.... so why continue with such horrific measures.... and indeed as a westerner I dislike them.

I'm "On thread" here and believe I have a voice (at times) and although some may dislike my views, far more dislike the views of the author of this thread.

Go on.... push it under the carpet .

[HallBeck]

Top post Barry. Very persuasive

[Raseni]

hacker....


not attacking zahid in any way, he can do what he want´s to do. I have no right to tell him what is right and what is wrong. I understand PERFECTLY that he is entitled to him own opinion and the there own laws in his country. Can you see me write otherwise anywhere?

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Hi Sara,

I'm not doubting that it reduces stress, but is it really the only technique or method there is that minimizes stress and stress-related diseases to this level? This is where my doubt lies. If alternative methods can achieve the same end result as sealing, I don't see the need for it nor do I feel it can be justified - even if the other methods should happen to be slightly less convenient and/or more time-consuming. Much like I don't approve of the use of baggies these days, now that other tried and tested methods are available. Other people are of course entitled to having a different opinion, just like I have the right to have mine.

/Magnus

PS. Sorry to hear about the falcons you lost. I hope you are able to get them back eventually. Apart from this, I hope all is well with you & Mark and that you had a good breeding season. Please give Mark my best regards.

Thanks for your kind words.
Offcourse you can have your opinion, we are just having an discussion, thats what the forum is here for.
No other method will minimize the time (and also then the stress level in the body) between wild and tame like sealing. It might look cruel, but if you saw it practised I bet you, you would be quite surprised.
In my opinion one of the worst things to put an animal trough is stress, so anything that reduce the stress level (except drugs if not absolute necesarry because of potential liver damage) is a posetive thing.

[Hacker]

Probably because this is an international forum and pushing stuff under the carpet never resolves anything
Richard

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Interesting post Barry. Have you ever seen the technique of seeling used in the countries that have practiced it for eons and continue to practice it now?

Perhaps it should also be noted that a badly fitting hood can do horrific damage to a hawk, falcon or eagle if used incorrectly.

[Raseni]

good post Barry!

[Hacker]

hacker....


not attacking zahid in any way, he can do what he want´s to do. I have no right to tell him what is right and what is wrong. I understand PERFECTLY that he is entitled to him own opinion and the there own laws in his country. Can you see me write otherwise anywhere?

Not saying you have, but please we have to look at it from the other side and just telling him he is barbaric won`t win any votes, diplomacy?
Richard

[Barry]

Interesting post Barry. Have you ever seen the technique of seeling used in the countries that have practiced it for eons and continue to practice it now?

Perhaps it should also be noted that a badly fitting hood can do horrific damage to a hawk, falcon or eagle if used incorrectly.

Hattie. Yes I have, and yes I agree, but the use of a loose gape (and indeed I have seen the use of a 'bird skin' hood used that allows shapes and shadows through) needs to be carefully and judiciously used in conjunction with low light manning akin to the former practice of 'waking'.

Barry

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Just a few words from humble me at the risk of having a post deleted...Again!

Why let this discussion continue..? admittedly this is an Eastern practice and also an Eastern question and for sure I'm the first to admit that we should all accept other ideas and practices... So why not accept mine ....mods?
A hood serves the same purpose as seeling and also gives the same results.... so why continue with such horrific measures.... and indeed as a westerner I dislike them.

I'm "On thread" here and believe I have a voice (at times) and although some may dislike my views, far more dislike the views of the author of this thread.

Go on.... push it under the carpet .

Get over it mate, I have PMed you and explained why your post was deleted on another thread, and I got sarcastic reply.
Stop picking for an argument with snidy remarks. You are as entiteled to your opinions as everyone else is. Your post was not deleted because of what you said but it quoted an already deleted post.
As long as you dont get personal no one willdelete your posts.
And saying you disslike the author of this thread is borderline.
Different countries, diffrent methods. Who are we to say whats right and wrong?
Can you drop this now?

[Hacker]

What you are asking this guy is to just bin all his countries history and tradition of falconry on your say so, a tall order!
How would we feel if someone came on the forum and said we were cruel etc to kill animals, birds etc and your practises of falconry were all wrong?
It takes time and diplomacy.

Richard

[Raseni]

If Zahid is barbaric or not, I can´t tell, as I don´t know him. But I am quite sure and hoping that he is not. I do not bomb him back to stoneage, and I also start my first post with the interest I have to read about other traditions, I would just rather have good arguments for the seeling than what I have heard so far. I have heard nothing a hood and dim light can handle, have you?
I totally agree that we need to be open to other traditions and cultures, but I also think we need to condem traditions which have logic in them anymore when less invasive methods can be used.

I definately hope Zahid will keep posting on here, as I am sure we can learn a lot from each other, and this is what a forum is all about. I respect the difference in people, but I do not respect putting an animal though physical pain, when there are alternatives.

cheers
Rasmus

[HunterJen]

What you are asking this guy is to just bin all his countries history and tradition of falconry on your say so, a tall order!
How would we feel if someone came on the forum and said we were cruel etc to kill animals, birds etc and your practises of falconry were all wrong?
It takes time and diplomacy.

Richard

Well said Richard!


ATB Jenet

[Greg]

Barry you seem to have taken my post in a very personal way! As I said the first line of the quote did make me laugh a bit. No one is questioning your experience and you are probably in a better position to express an opinion that the vast majority of people on this forum. I too have see badly seeled birds with very deformed eyelids but I'm not in a position to say if this is a common result of seeling, I would never even think of seeling a bird as I personally don't like the idea but that doesn't mean that I should sit in judgement on people from other cultures. Lets face it they could equally argue that things we do things that are as bad in their eyes but I won't go into the docking thing again. Please read what I said again I'm sure you took it the wrong way!


I feel like I'm typing everything twice here, so for the sake of my poor typing fingers, this is my last input.

I have experience with wild taken birds. Including 5 Eagles.
I have experience with re-habbing wild injured birds. Including Eagles in addition to the above.
I have experience with seeled birds in addition to the above.
I have witnessed multiple eagles being seeled.
I have experience of asper senstive birds.I am currently flying my 11 year old Gyr who I have owned from the start and has just had 5 years in a chamber - no apser. The male who is currently in a chamber is 12. No asper. Neither seem any worse for not being seeled, including the during the journey from the US to the UK.

A wild taken Golden Eagle for example has the same fear reaction to people and new environments as a captive bred eagle bred in full seclusion and taken at a passager age. I have just such an eagle. Not seeled and in fact never hooded. She is nearly 9 now. She has never been given sporanox.

The wild eagle in low condition does suffer additional stress I admit, however, a dose of sporanox and a short period of heavy feeding through a hood with no casting given is a much better alternative to seeling.

My first point relative to stress is, if asper is gonna kick in, I see nothing that will bring it on as fast as the act of seeling.

In one year I saw several US eagles seeled in Wyoming while I was there trapping. Of those seeled, all died of asper' except one which was lost. So the argument that seeling helps prevent asper holds absolutely no water whatsoever. Incidentally, the one that was lost was not seeled.

The justification about the sutures being loosened to slowly allow light in as a falsehood. Fact is, the eyelids either side of the suture begin to sag as they dry out. This lets light and images in. The sutures are loosened to stop the eyelid tearing around the hole. This of course does let in a little more light.
The light stages can be replicated using hoods with ever looser gapes.

The hood is used extensively while the bird is seeled. This of course does help 'make' the bird to the hood, but it is also a precaution to make up for the sagging eyelids.

I'm not scientifically sure of the fact that birds have no nerve supply to the eyelids. It may be so, but I don't have the facts. however, I am sure though that no anaesthetic is offered during the seeling process.

I have never seen antibiotic offered as a precaution against later infection. As has been said earlier in the original thread, birds are presented at falcon hospitals in ME with infections related to seeling.

Add all this up and you will see that a justification of 'asper prevention' is the most incredibly insupportable reason you could give for seeling. In fact 'maintaining tradition' is probably more pertinent - at least it's true!

We know better. We should understand better. We should move on, protect our sport and let archaic and un-necessary traditions die.

As a final address to the tethering point. We can discuss the issue about tethering a bird of prey by the legs and its justifiability when we accept it is unjustified to lead a dog by the neck via a check chain.

Barry

[Hobby]

Can I just add that in
Al-Timimi's book he states "stitching the eyelids is a painful operation and might lead to harmful,damaging sequelae-like eye damage when not done properly or not released carefully and well tended"
In conjunction with the points raised above by Barry I cannot see the advantage of sealing,other than for the conveniance of the trappers.

[Barry]

Barry you seem to have taken my post in a very personal way! As I said the first line of the quote did make me laugh a bit. No one is questioning your experience and you are probably in a better position to express an opinion that the vast majority of people on this forum. I too have see badly seeled birds with very deformed eyelids but I'm not in a position to say if this is a common result of seeling, I would never even think of seeling a bird as I personally don't like the idea but that doesn't mean that I should sit in judgement on people from other cultures. Lets face it they could equally argue that things we do things that are as bad in their eyes but I won't go into the docking thing again. Please read what I said again I'm sure you took it the wrong way!

Greg,

I'm not sure what your aiming at (might be to late for my right side of brain to be working), but nothing I have written has any bearing on anything you have written, just my opinion and experience.

As an aside, I was just thinking about the issue of birds having any nerves in their eyelids. Well just to quote the obvious we all know :???: that birds of prey blink from the bottom up, so it is this bottom eyelid that is sewn upwards. It is worth noting then that the other stitch at the 'top' is most often (although not always) in my experience sewn to the skin at the bottom of the supra-orbital ridge (the big scarey eyebrow) where there undoubtedly ARE nerve endings.

Barry

[Greg]

Can I just add that in
Al-Timimi's book he states "stitching the eyelids is a painful operation and might lead to harmful,damaging sequelae-like eye damage when not done properly or not released carefully and well tended"
In conjunction with the points raised above by Barry I cannot see the advantage of sealing,other than for the conveniance of the trappers.

Al-Timimi's is entitled to opinion just the same as anyone else on this forum!

[Sean White]

Get over it mate, I have PMed you and explained why your post was deleted on another thread, and I got sarcastic reply.
Stop picking for an argument with snidy remarks. You are as entiteled to your opinions as everyone else is. Your post was not deleted because of what you said but it quoted an already deleted post.
As long as you dont get personal no one willdelete your posts.
And saying you disslike the author of this thread is borderline.
Different countries, diffrent methods. Who are we to say whats right and wrong?
Can you drop this now?

And get over it I will.....

I cant actually remember saying I dislike the author... and neither was the original post deleted at the time of writing.

Am I treading on rocky ground here...... I wont say another word.

[Hobby]

Al-Timimi's is entitled to opinion just the same as anyone else on this forum!
But being a falcon vet in the middle east he may well have the more extensive hands on experience!

[Greg]

But being a falcon vet in the middle east he may well have the more extensive hands on experience!

True but he still expressed it as an opinion!

[Hacker]

after all , who eats pork here in the uk?
and that causes offence both here and abroad.
Our actions effect everyone so we should be aware of them, just that some cultures are more advanced emotionally that others.
if you want to change this then dump billions of pounds into their economies in order to bring their standard up.
Richard

[Barry]

Can I just add that in
Al-Timimi's book he states "stitching the eyelids is a painful operation and might lead to harmful,damaging sequelae-like eye damage when not done properly or not released carefully and well tended"
In conjunction with the points raised above by Barry I cannot see the advantage of sealing,other than for the conveniance of the trappers.

So much for my final input - I just feel very strongly about this, but I also take a balanced view.

The lower eyelid is stitched and held upward. If sewn to the flesh where you would expect an upper eyelid, the thread would drag over the dome of the eye causing irritation and damage. The top stitch is normally through the bottom portion of the supra-orbital ridge which holds it very slightly out from the eye to reduce this. It also (in the parts of the west where this is still practiced) allows saline to be dropped into the tiny cavity to prevent drying after the eyelid sags and the stitch is loosened. However, that upper stitch is probably more painfull being in regular skin. In addition, the lower stitch will still cause irritation as it does touch the eye lightly (above the pupil until the stitches are slowly loosened) and the eye in a bird of prey (unlike an owl) does have limited movement - thus becoming a irritant which is doubtless a source of stress which the very practice is designed to eliminate :rolleyes:.

Barry

[Hobby]

True but he still expressed it as an opinion!

****,your reminding me of my wife now,she's always gotta have the last word:)

[Greg]

****,your reminding me of my wife now,she's always gotta have the last word:)

Get you luv!

[Hacker]

So much for my final input - I just feel very strongly about this, but I also take a balanced view.

The lower eyelid is stitched and held upward. If sewn to the flesh where you would expect an upper eyelid, the thread would drag over the dome of the eye causing irritation and damage. The top stitch is normally through the bottom portion of the supra-orbital ridge which holds it very slightly out from the eye to reduce this. It also (in the parts of the west where this is still practiced) allows saline to be dropped into the tiny cavity to prevent drying after the eyelid sags and the stitch is loosened. However, that upper stitch is probably more painfull being in regular skin. In addition, the lower stitch will still cause irritation as it does touch the eye lightly (above the pupil until the stitches are slowly loosened) and the eye in a bird of prey (unlike an owl) does have limited movement - thus becoming a irritant which is doubtless a source of stress which the very practice is designed to eliminate :rolleyes:.

Barry

Barry, i reckon most will agree with you, but to change the practise will take a lot of work rather than a few harsh words on a forum.
We all have different standards and must value different cultures practices.
A personal villification of one poster on here will do no good at all and if nothing else will push them away.
Lets understand why they feel that they have to carry out these practices and try to educate them rather than try to ram it down their throat as has been posted earlier on this forum by others.
It ain`t going to be an easy ride.
Richard

[Barry]

Barry, i reckon most will agree with you, but to change the practise will take a lot of work rather than a few harsh words on a forum.
We all have different standards and must value different cultures practices.
A personal villification of one poster on here will do no good at all and if nothing else will push them away.
Lets understand why they feel that they have to carry out these practices and try to educate them rather than try to ram it down their throat as has been posted earlier on this forum by others.
It ain`t going to be an easy ride.
Richard

Richard, I agree, which is why the first part of my previous post explains how the eye is seeled in a way to reduce irritation to the eye.

I am not trying to right or wrong, just explaining my personal reasons (based on personal experiences) for considering the practice unacceptable and unrequired in todays world.

With luck, this could even allow someone else to undesratnd our point of view, rather than follow the seeming trend whereby we are always expected to understand the ways of others (which to a point we have to do, but not to the point we are expected to accept a foreign tradition even though we know there are other less cruel alternatives). It's a kind of forced reverse political correctness.

Barry

[Hacker]

Richard, I agree, which is why the first part of my previous post explains how the eye is seeled in a way to reduce irritation to the eye.

I am not trying to right or wrong, just explaining my personal reasons (based on personal experiences) for considering the practice unacceptable and unrequired in todays world.

With luck, this could even allow someone else to undesratnd our point of view, rather than follow the seeming trend whereby we are always expected to understand the ways of others (which to a point we have to do, but not to the point we are expected to accept a foreign tradition even though we know there are other less cruel alternatives). It's a kind of forced reverse political correctness.

Barry

Agreed
Richard

[Adam R]

I remember watching Nick Fox's set of DVDs and seeing a small portion of a passage bird being seeled. It was said then that if not done properly it can cause infection and is uneccessary (due to the availability of hoods). That said this was from a western point of view. Again from his book, a caption reads "The passage falcons of Arabia are among the best manned birds in the world." Arab falconers also practise seeling, and the above quote, if true, would seem to suggest that are benefits to seeling.
I personally do not have a problem with seeling to the point where I would lay into someone who used the method. I believe in being open minded and accepting of others traditions/beliefs etc. But would personally not use it as a method myself. As long as the bird is kept at a relatively stress free level, and from what I understand, eagles that are stressed are quite prone to asper, then whose to complain? Obviously some of you..
Zahid posted pics of an eagle that looked in great condition! If he had posted a picture of an eagle in clear distress, with blood seeping from its eyes as a result of bad seeling then clearly I can see an outrage starting, BUT HE DIDN'T!!
People need to more tolerant towards others and accept that there are things that some do differently. We are supposed to be united on here are we not? Maybe we should start acting like it..

[Tony James]

True but he still expressed it as an opinion!

Hi Greg,

he also uses these important words, 'when not done properly', words that apply equally to many western practices like hooding or tethering which, when not done properly, can lead to awful physical and mental consequences.

I don't want to add much to this thread other than to say how saddened I am to read so many words that seem more appropriate to uninformed antis than to falconers who choose to participate on an International Falconry Forum (though as always interspersed with knowledgable and intelligent opinion).

I do have experience with falcons that were seeled when trapped, and I also have experience of falcons that were badly handled by western falconers and were thoroughly traumatised by the poor use of ill fitting and uncomfortable hoods. Properly done, both practices have much to recommend them to the circumstances in which they are used.

I'm afraid we have much to address here before we are in a position to criticise little understood practices in far away countries.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[PenelopeP]

I hold a valid and, hopefully, informed opinion on many controversial subjects - slavery, woman wearing the burqua, dog fighting, doping, female circumcision and all manner of things, including the seeling of bop -all of which I have not seen at first hand. Like everyone else on this forum, my opinion is equally as valid as yours, who, as I understand it, hasn't seen seeling first hand either.

In the days when we were legally allowed to take birds from the wild, which isn't that long ago, I believe that seeling wasn't common practice in the UK & if so, we presumably managed to get by without it?

Thats my whole point. I have not seen sealing, nor have I read any research on it, which is why I dont have an opinion on it one way or another. Which is also why I asked the thread starter to explain it and asked questions on it. What Ive been trying to say is, how can people say "its cruel" when they know nothing of it or what it entails. They just hear "the birds eyes are sewn up" and whoaaa thats it its automatically deemed as cruel.

I like to think Im a pretty open minded person and open to others views and traditions and ways of doing things. And if I didnt like something one way or the other, I would make sure I know actual facts about the subject to I could give valid reasons for my opinion and thoughts. Unlike many of the members on here who are posting that its cruel barbaric yada yada yada

[ReluctantTwitcher]

To those of you who have commented on the subject of sealing based on practical knowledge and experience, thank you
for your informed opinion and for taking the time to post. It has been most interesting as well as enlightening. To those who,
like me, don't happen to have the same practical experience, thanks for expressing your thoughts and explaining the reasons
for your personal stand.

I can understand if Zahid feels himself and his traditional falconry practices under attack and can certainly sympathize with
him (probably not the most enjoyable position to be in...). But that is the risk you take when sharing or debating things you
do publicly, be it on a forum or in real life. Contrary to what many on here either believe or feel like stating publicly, I do
believe one has the right to criticise customs, practices and cultures, whatever they may be and regardless of whether they
are practiced at home or abroad. I do not consider them to just be different, equally valid and worthy of the same respect.
This does not mean that I don't support everyone's right to voice their opinion or argue their case, or that I'm unable to
view things from another perspective. I just don't subscribe to cultural or moral relativism, just like I don't believe in political
correctness. Nothing unique to this particular debate though. In any case it has been my experience that debate are better
off if the subjects up for discussion are kept as separate as possible from the people discussing them, if you get my drift.
I.e., stick to the matter in question, and try not to get personal or let yourself be affected yourself. Easier said than done
though, I know!

All the best to you all,
/Magnus

[HawkMom]

This is a website of an American Falconer who trains and flies passage Golden Eagles. His methods do not use seeling and he is very sucessful in the field.


www.joeatkinsonseaglejournal.com He also sells DVD's explaining his techniques. He has trained eagles for years.

[BBD]

These techniques have been used by us in the Middle Eastern regions for centuries! They are not cruel, barbaric or any of these other things people are suggesting. I suggest you try putting a hood on a wild falcon(and keeping it there) before judging what already works!!

Falcons(and other Birds of Prey) are wild animals! They are not our friends, they do not feel affection for us, they stay only to hunt and at any time we expect them to go. In fact what is most usual is that we release them after 2 or 3 seasons back into the wild.

In my culture falcons hold a place of very high respect for their speed and ability as well as their beauty--and as recently as 60 years ago they were NECESSARY for survival in the desert here. We learn to hunt with them from our fathers who learned from theirs..it is not a hobby or a fun Sunday afternoon out with our pet the falcon--it is a way of life, part of our culture for centuries. To suggest that we are cruel for our practices is offensive, you may not understand they way we do things here but it does not mean that you are in any way 'better' because of the practices you choose. I suggest coming down from the high horse a moment and recognizing that we are neither cruel nor barbaric in our practice, that these birds are loved and respected by all who carry them here, and that your unnecessary criticism is unproductive and, quite frankly, rude.

[From High Above]

Zahid welcome to the IFF .your threads have being very intresting.

i am just going to put my few pence in for what it is worth

the art of falconry has being going on for thousands of years now and little has changed. i am very open minded and i am not going to speak badly about this post but it is about time we all woke up and faced the facts of this art ..all over the world we all have our own ways of training, manning, trapping, hunting, each country has its own ways and laws we should all respect what and how things are done ..i hate the fact we are all arguing on here about wether we are right or wrong .

[Bluejay]

This is a interesting thread and the seeming of hawks has been a contentous topic between eastern falconers and western falconers for some time. I must admit the first time I heard about it my first reaction was that it sounded like a unnessasary and cruel practice. However experience has shed some light on this. Firstly I have over 30 years experience in trapping both passage and haggard hawks and eagles. I am all to fimilar with the dangers that stress can have on a newly trapped hawk. Something that most UK falconers have no concept about. I personally don't use seeming but this is more due to a lack of confidence on my side than anything else. Its not something I'd like to get wrong. However I have seen it used with great success a number of times. All done by people that I would consider master falconers, who were in turn trained by master falconers. When done properly there is no denining the benefits. However like a lot of things in falconry ,when not done right can be damaging towards the hawk. But I still think its a practice that has its place in falconry.

I have been a little disappointed with some of the out right condemnations on this thread especially by people that have no or little to nothing in terms of knowledge about seeming or even wild trapped hawks be they passage or haggard birds. Yes everyone is entitled to there 'opinions' often a word used by people that don't have a clue. In the real world the only opinion that really matters is an informed one. I have been lucky to live and practice falconry in Africa, US and the UK. If one was to talk about cruelty then the fact that any 'fool' off the street can pick up a hawk without any previous training or knowledge about raptor husbandary in the UK would top my list. In my few years there, the amount of poorly treated raptors I saw was frightening. One might even use the word barbaric. This is a practice that does not benefit the hawks wellbeing or the longevity of falconry. I find it interesting how quick some falconers are to condemn practices in other parts of the world but completely ignore some of the questionable practices in there own country.

[Little Joe]

I have to admit I havent read every single post on this thread, but I think I got the idea behind the debate well enough.

I agree with BlueJay that the situation in the UK is far scarier than the practice of sealing favored by Pakistani and some Arab falconers. It seems to me every second kid who saw harry Potter now has his own barn owl and every second adult who saw a falconry display now proudly owns a Harris hawk. There is certainly something amiss with the legislation in the Uk regarding the keeping of animals as pets.

As far as sealing goes, I have been in the Middle East for 9 years and started my falconry career here. In the early days I've seen a lot of wildtrapped, sealed falcons brought in from Pakistan. A lot of them had their eyelids messed up by bad sealing technique. Sores and infections were common. Wildtrapped imports into the UAE has since been stopped (in theory) due to increased pressure from CITES. Nowadays the vast majority of birds flown here by Arab falconers are captive bred birds and they have never been sealed. They are made to the hood as is done in Western style falconry. I dont think the quality of Arab falconry has suffered for it.

In the very first post was mentioned that a freshly trapped eagle or falcon is hard to man and make to the hood, thats why sealing is necessary. This is absolute nonsense and makes me seriously question the thread originator's experience as a falconer. The exact opposite is true. A wild bird is the easiest thing in the world to hood. But try and hood an imprinted bird when its grown up for the first time, and you have my deepest sympathy.

I think sealing is interesting from a historical perspective. I would like to know how it first started and why. It must have developed after the discovery of hooding I suspect and I wonder why. Was it for financial reasons (trappers trying to save a penny or two on hoods)? Was it because hoods were not readily available (trappers being too far from a good hood maker)? I dont know. What I do know is that today there is definately no shortage of hoods of any size in Pakistan. Almost all the cheaper hoods available in the ME are mass produced in Lahore or Karachi.

As far as training differences go. Western style falconry and Arab/Pakistani style falconry are different due to different conditions and traditions, but both have its merits and both work equally well.

A last word on sealing. If done correctly, it can be a safe and harmless. The problem is, there is a risk. With hooding, there is no risk except making a bird hoodshy if the falconer is incompetent. Hoodshyness can be fixed, eyes messed up with incompetent sealing can not.

So my question is, why in the name of all that is sacred persist with an outdated practice when a better way is available? Its like sticking to traditional jesses when Almeyri's are 10 times better and easier. Makes no sense to me except that its tradition. And IMHO opinion a lot of traditions are based on superstition and ignorance and should be discarded with extreme prejudice.

[Hobby]

To those of you who have commented on the subject of sealing based on practical knowledge and experience, thank you
for your informed opinion and for taking the time to post. It has been most interesting as well as enlightening. To those who,
like me, don't happen to have the same practical experience, thanks for expressing your thoughts and explaining the reasons
for your personal stand.

I can understand if Zahid feels himself and his traditional falconry practices under attack and can certainly sympathize with
him (probably not the most enjoyable position to be in...). But that is the risk you take when sharing or debating things you
do publicly, be it on a forum or in real life. Contrary to what many on here either believe or feel like stating publicly, I do
believe one has the right to criticise customs, practices and cultures, whatever they may be and regardless of whether they
are practiced at home or abroad. I do not consider them to just be different, equally valid and worthy of the same respect.
This does not mean that I don't support everyone's right to voice their opinion or argue their case, or that I'm unable to
view things from another perspective. I just don't subscribe to cultural or moral relativism, just like I don't believe in political
correctness. Nothing unique to this particular debate though. In any case it has been my experience that debate are better
off if the subjects up for discussion are kept as separate as possible from the people discussing them, if you get my drift.
I.e., stick to the matter in question, and try not to get personal or let yourself be affected yourself. Easier said than done
though, I know!

All the best to you all,
/Magnus
I agree with this well written post.
The level of debate on this thread is poor with other issues clouding the subject and efforts to discredit posters due to their lack of experience or first hand knowledge of the practise.
The divides I see being created are by those being stated that if you don't agree with it you are anti falconry.
Every poster should be credited with having a resonable level of interlect and their opinion valued.
Surely its healthy to question or praise any practise where ever it may occur in the world.
What I would deem as helpful is a description ,by an experienced supporter of the practice, of the actual process ,who can explain why it is not painful,stressfull and indeed relate any potential pitfalls of sealing weighed up against its advantages and the alternative of just employing a decent hood.

[Pink_Eagle]

I think the reason the techniques are being 'opposed' is because like many things just because it has been done for 100's of years doent make it right

I personally couldnt sew up the eyes of a bird and would rather go for a different aproach, I think it is all about showing and learning from different techniques as there are alot about, and i always interested in differen ways people do things, but I dont think this is ever something i could take as acceptable

In fact a big UK breeder is now practicing sealing on all the gyrfalcons (trained in another country) to reduce stress and indirectly asperigillosis


this practice surely must be illegal in this country! So this is a UK breeder seeling birds in the UK? or sending them abroad to be seeled?

[MattSpar]

Leaving aside all thoughts on the morality of sealing, what I'd like to know is this...

Presumably, a bird, after having its eyes "unsealed" as it were, is then made to the hood? If so, what prevents it being made to the hood from the start?

I'm neither for, nor against this practice, it's just that european falconers manage their passage and haggard hawks by using the hood from the outset.

[BlueBoy]

In fact a big UK breeder is now practicing sealing on all the gyrfalcons (trained in another country) to reduce stress and indirectly asperigillosis

I could think of a few who'd use this information against falconry.

[KillJoy]

many falconers replied me that sew or sealing of eyes of a passage bird after trapping is wrong so i post a new thread on this topic .Any one can train any passage wild trapped large eagle like steppe,imperial,etc without using eyes sewn techniques? or can practice well to hood a bird from its first day after trapping?
i think he will damage his bird sure and this method we use from many centuries and never found any harm or disease for bird if sealed correctly .

Zahid,

I read a book once and saw a falcons eyes sewn together, i nearly freaked.

I thought, how horrible. i asked the guy i borrowed the book from about it and he expliained it has been done for centuries. Would i ever do it, NO, i have fat american hands and small needles dont work well in them.

I cant imagine the skill it takes for a person to beable to sew an eyelid up without damage to the eye. As a westerner i though just get a hood, but you might not have the luxary of going down to tandy's leather and just making a hood, or buying one on the net.

this sport has taught me many different culturs have different ways of manning birds, but there ase some basics that are common from pakitsan to america. keeping the bird in the dark by hooding or seeling is one of thoes thing that are universal.
dont be discouraged, I love learnig from different cultures, dosent mean i will try it, but it is a great way to learn other methods.

keep them coming!!! :supz:

Mike

[Gil]

a bit off topic but it was asked a few pages back and ill just donate the little i know. mongolian hawkers do hood their golden eagles. would have commented on this topic but i dont know enough about it to make an appropiate comment. but even if eventually the bird does get more manned, if it hurts it in any way, it should be replaced by hoods. why not make some fancy hoods that you can set the amount of light that passes through them? like a dim lighter?

[Bala73PK]

Eagles i dont have any experience
. But 4 goshawks and falcons can be manned without sewing eye lids they r ok with hoods. Sewing is replaced by hoods. Both have the same function we make holes 4 goshawk in hood at early days so that it dont get stress and starts geting used 2 the enviornment as days pass bird get manned. Sewing was done just 2 avoid hood but its risky no matter how perfect it has been done because their always risk of tearing eye lid by thread usually rubing face by claws. In Pakistan only trappers do it because the want 2 save the hood money thats all none of falconar does sewing now a days. It was done in old days of traing when u didnot find good hoods. Now its only done by the brids trappes because they sell them they dont take care. I have personaly both experience training birds both have the same output but sewing involves risk many more 2 damaging eyes and lids. as Zahid u r a good experience trapper but falconry i dont think so. Trapping and selling is other then flying birds of prey.

[Raseni]

I think we had plenty of good argument for not sewing, and not any for good for sewing. I also find it very frightening to learn that some UK breeders are using this method. I personally can only try to distance myself from this invasive method. Whether or not it is tradition in Pakistan for some, I have a hard time understanding that any western falconer can vote for the use of this method.
When replying to this thread, it is not of importance whether people have experience with this method or not, when quoting their opinion, I think anyone here on this forum should distance themselves from this form of torment, when we now have excellent hoods available, just here on this forum, from sponsers. eg. MJ-hoods and falconry hood international.

There is no excuse for using the method of sewing, when we have the hood. And concerning gyrs and asper, if you can care for gyrs without sewing them, DON`T KEEP THEM! I think it is a load of c**p than sewing will the manning and health of gyrs better, I have seen parent reared pure gyrs fly, that was never sewed, and they are just as wild as any wild gyr.

So any breeder using this method here in the western world, is only doing it to ease his/her own worktime, if it even does that.

And regarding the trapping and selling of birds, I have no respect WHAT SO EVER for that. That is one of the reasons the red naped shaheen is declining, when trappers catch them along with saker, but can´t export them, so sell them with the sakers as a food item.

DISGRACEFUL!

sorry my angry post, but is really makes me shake my head when someone uses this method in a western country, that should have good animal welfare!

cheers
Rasmus

[Raseni]

and as Bala73 states, it is not the preferable method to use anymore. And he lives in Pakistan, so I guess he should know what is moving in his own country.

Glad you posted Bala.

cheers
Rasmus

[GoodFooter]

Leaving aside all thoughts on the morality of sealing, what I'd like to know is this...

Presumably, a bird, after having its eyes "unsealed" as it were, is then made to the hood? If so, what prevents it being made to the hood from the start?

I'm neither for, nor against this practice, it's just that european falconers manage their passage and haggard hawks by using the hood from the outset.

Hi Mattspar........I believe as often as not it is education ( and possibly skill derived for education) preventing hooding from the start. Tradition is hard to break in many countries or nations and animal welfare is low on their priorities and even if animal welfare is of concern more often than not it is not actually animals welfare that is addressed its humans perceptions of animal welfare which is often a different matter alltogether.

If the person doing the sealing had the skill, knowledge, ability and funding to fit a good hood....sealing may well be done away with.... but an ill fitting hood may do as much damage as poor sealing and ruin the bird to hood.....for a trapper that may devalue the bird.

I'm not an advocate of sealing....so no abuse please folks but I do understand animal welfare....if done well a couple of tiny *****s and the stress of the world disappears, from the birds point of view not ours. And noone would complain if stiches were put in to mend a wound.....stress and the concomitant ailments can be more debilitating than a wound so what makes one more acceptable than the other??? human perception?

Yes I appreciate a good fitting hood doesnt involve the ''*****' or the infection risk etc but then that comes back to our responsibility to educate, train and help.....not sitting back throwing stones so as to close the doors on us.

[Turumti]

If I may add my two cents here to this discussion about seeling and its pros and cons. Seeling is primarily done by trappers when they are out in the field, simply because a thread and needle take up much less space than two dozen hoods would. Secondly, a hood can be pulled off by a bird, but seeling cannot be undone by it. Thirdly, seeling - if properly done is much safer option than soft and ill fitting hoods that rub on the birds eyes and damage the eye, causing the growth of cataracts and subsequently blindness.

Furthermore, if two decades of experience is anything go by, then properly done, seeling is a better option than shoving an ill fitting hood on a bird that is not hood broken. Seeled birds calm done quicker, and consequently get manned and trained faster, than their unseeled cousins. I have trained both seeled and unseeled birds, and have always found that seeled birds were less stressed than the birds that had hood shoved on them from the moment they were caught.

To dilate further upon the effects of seeling on the birds' eyelids - if properly done and properly undone, no marks or scars remain after two days from the unseeling operation.

Personally I avoid seeling unless Im out afield and short of hoods or unless I plan to have a newly caught bird hunting in ten days. Seeling is an operation that is best done by those who know it well.

[Taffwall]

In fact a big UK breeder is now practicing sealing on all the gyrfalcons (trained in another country) to reduce stress and indirectly asperigillosis

Who is the breeder then, and is the sealing taking place here in the uk?

[Hobby]

If I may add my two cents here to this discussion about seeling and its pros and cons. Seeling is primarily done by trappers when they are out in the field, simply because a thread and needle take up much less space than two dozen hoods would. Secondly, a hood can be pulled off by a bird, but seeling cannot be undone by it. Thirdly, seeling - if properly done is much safer option than soft and ill fitting hoods that rub on the birds eyes and damage the eye, causing the growth of cataracts and subsequently blindness.

Furthermore, if two decades of experience is anything go by, then properly done, seeling is a better option than shoving an ill fitting hood on a bird that is not hood broken. Seeled birds calm done quicker, and consequently get manned and trained faster, than their unseeled cousins. I have trained both seeled and unseeled birds, and have always found that seeled birds were less stressed than the birds that had hood shoved on them from the moment they were caught.

To dilate further upon the effects of seeling on the birds' eyelids - if properly done and properly undone, no marks or scars remain after two days from the unseeling operation.

Personally I avoid seeling unless Im out afield and short of hoods or unless I plan to have a newly caught bird hunting in ten days. Seeling is an operation that is best done by those who know it well.
Thanks for the above insight.
Out of interest do you come across many falcons with eye injuries caused by sealing and what is your reason for not sealing all your new birds?

[Peregrinator]

Thank you for a post based on factual experience. Further to this I have used it in combination with the hood and compared to unseeled birds of the same circumstances it made a large difference in their early success. Do you also use hooding in combination with seeling? I can't imagine using it without a hood also.
Respectfully,
William

If I may add my two cents here to this discussion about seeling and its pros and cons. Seeling is primarily done by trappers when they are out in the field, simply because a thread and needle take up much less space than two dozen hoods would. Secondly, a hood can be pulled off by a bird, but seeling cannot be undone by it. Thirdly, seeling - if properly done is much safer option than soft and ill fitting hoods that rub on the birds eyes and damage the eye, causing the growth of cataracts and subsequently blindness.

Furthermore, if two decades of experience is anything go by, then properly done, seeling is a better option than shoving an ill fitting hood on a bird that is not hood broken. Seeled birds calm done quicker, and consequently get manned and trained faster, than their unseeled cousins. I have trained both seeled and unseeled birds, and have always found that seeled birds were less stressed than the birds that had hood shoved on them from the moment they were caught.

To dilate further upon the effects of seeling on the birds' eyelids - if properly done and properly undone, no marks or scars remain after two days from the unseeling operation.

Personally I avoid seeling unless Im out afield and short of hoods or unless I plan to have a newly caught bird hunting in ten days. Seeling is an operation that is best done by those who know it well.

[Turumti]

Thank you for a post based on factual experience. Further to this I have used it in combination with the hood and compared to unseeled birds of the same circumstances it made a large difference in their early success. Do you also use hooding in combination with seeling? I can't imagine using it without a hood also.
Respectfully,
William


William,

Seeling is a prelude to hooding.

Regards,

Salman

[Harri5Hawk]

carnt u just use a hood? if ur dad didnt want u to see something i dont think he would seal your eyelids shut,, or maybe im wrong

H5H

[Harri5Hawk]

and on a arab falconry dvd they said that sealing is will cause a diesease 90% of the time, so why rinsk it?

H5H

[Harri5Hawk]

and on a arab falconry dvd they said that sealing is will cause a diesease 90% of the time, so why rinsk it?

H5H
*risk

[Kristoferu]

Zahid,

This forum is for opinions. Seeling is not a technique which can be practiced in the UK. Many people will not have seen or heard about the benefits of seeling and may just see it as cruel. Some may have only seen the 'bad' side of seeling.

We should be more tolerant of others techniques and traditions, rather than condeming them out of hand without knowledge and understanding.

Am somewhat in agreement, FHH...

BUT then there are other traditions and techniques - like female circumcision or the ducking stool - which, while traditional, are hard if not impossible to justify. The world moves on and newer, better techniques should rightly replace less favourable ones.

(Only my view, others have every right to their own.)

[Peregrinator]

William,

Seeling is a prelude to hooding.

Regards,

Salman

Salman,
Thank you for that. Interesting, when I seel I also use the hood. As you know seeling allows the bird an awareness of its surroundings without overstimulation. I carry the bird constantly while awake hooding and unhooding it frequently. I have yet to leave a bird seeled for more than 5 days. None of my seeled birds have yet had infections or visible scarring. It is a powerful technique but isn't necessary for all birds. I would also caution against its use without experience or careful mentorship.
Regards,
William

[M Donnelly]

Surley we are missing a point here. It seems that there is not any real advantage to sealing? At the very least any difference is possible health is negligible.

Now what about the perception???????? Surely this is what we should be looking at? What are people outside looking in likely to think? That is the biggest danger to this sport.

IMO More people will look at sealing a birds eyes as being a bad thing plain and simple - and No explaining that it might help reduce somesort of possible illness, less stress maybe sort of. Will convince someone.

Look at the reactions of alot of the falconers on this website who are reeasonably informed about falconry you think a lay person of the street will think it is okay??

If things are practised in your country which you think may be hard for others to understand, keep it to yourself. NOt because we nessacary disagree but for what is best for falconry?

[Little Joe]

Name the UK breeder who seals birds.

Not that it matters. Sealing is not a disaster, unlike Tom Dick Harrisson and his first Harris!!!

[Little Joe]

And Tom's Harris has just been lost...again... without telemetry...wearing traditional jesses....

[PenelopeP]

and as Bala73 states, it is not the preferable method to use anymore. And he lives in Pakistan, so I guess he should know what is moving in his own country.

Glad you posted Bala.

cheers
Rasmus

Rasmus, I think we get that you dont like the idea of this practice, but stop trying to preach to everyone else who doesnt share your views. This forum is about opinions, which will vary from person to person. Why try and go on and on at people as though in some effort to make them share your views. The world would be a boring place if we all had the same thoughts and opinions on every subject. No matter how against this you are, you have to respect others might not be quite so shocked or against it, and allow them that opinion rather than trying to change it.

[Raseni]

penelope, I think you may have missunderstood me, I quoted Bala to point out that even some Pakistani falconers do not use seeling any more, because they are aware of better options.

nothing more nothing less. I accept that the fact that some might feel ok about exposing their bird to physical pain, but i have NO respect for it what so ever!
Like I also accept some people find it ok to cut off someones hand if they steal, but I have no respect for it in any way.

But I will do what I can in any way to try to convince any one that there are better options, if that is my opinion, and if I find their practices harmful to my personal interest, as I do is specific question.

difference is great, but within limits.

cheers
Rasmus

[PenelopeP]

penelope, I think you may have missunderstood me, I quoted Bala to point out that even some Pakistani falconers do not use seeling any more, because they are aware of better options.

nothing more nothing less. I accept that the fact that some might feel ok about exposing their bird to physical pain, but i have NO respect for it what so ever!
Like I also accept some people find it ok to cut off someones hand if they steal, but I have no respect for it in any way.

But I will do what I can in any way to try to convince any one that there are better options, if that is my opinion, and if I find their practices harmful to my personal interest, as I do is specific question.

difference is great, but within limits.

cheers
Rasmus

Do you actually know anything about sealing. Have you seen the proceedure. Do you know the medical implecations, have you researched it in any way?? If not then how can you possibly say what the better or different options are??

Education is a wonderful thing.

[Taffwall]

Do you actually know anything about sealing. Have you seen the proceedure. Do you know the medical implecations, have you researched it in any way?? If not then how can you possibly say what the better or different options are??

Education is a wonderful thing.


Nobody has gone on and on and on more than you!
Yet by your own admission you have little experience of the technique yourself:roll:
So who are you to keep arguing?

People are free to air their opinions. Some agree with it some disagree. We get your point.
All rasmus is saying is he strongly disagrees with the technique. I have formed that opinion too. You have formed your opinion and have expressed it also. However it is based on no more fact than mine. We have simply come to different opinions- Which is fine. Lets leave it at that

[Raseni]

I have never seen a seeled bird in person, and I hope I never will. what I know about sealing is from reading on the net about it. And I have not yet found any valid reason to seal a bird, istead of using a hood alone.
I started saying this would be an interesting thread and it did.

Education is good, definately, that is why I am still keeping at my biology study, as I have done for the past 3.5 years. So I know a little about biological mechanisms, not much but a little:yawinkle:. I know enough about biological signalling in biota, to know that nerveendings are nessesary in the eyelids for them to fuctions correct. As the muscle retracts it is because of electrical signals, that releases Ca2+ ions, which causes crossbridges to move, these electrical signals are made in the axon, by the membrane potential, which is momentary depolerization of membrane. So this is should rule out that the bird has no nerveending in the eye, and therefore also HAS feeling when he needles is showed through the eye lid, and when the suture is tightened.

cheers
Rasmus

[PenelopeP]

Nobody has gone on and on and on more than you!
Yet by your own admission you have little experience of the technique yourself:roll:
So who are you to keep arguing?

People are free to air their opinions. Some agree with it some disagree. We get your point.
All rasmus is saying is he strongly disagrees with the technique. I have formed that opinion too. You have formed your opinion and have expressed it also. However it is based on no more fact than mine. We have simply come to different opinions- Which is fine. Lets leave it at that

Ermmm hello. I havent said one way or the other that I like the proceedure or dont. I dont actually see a huge problem in what I have seen so far from pictures and explanations given by those who actually KNOW something about it. I havent tried to change anyones opinions, merely asked people to show some respect for others views rather than try and force a change of views on them. ANd I dont think I have "gone on" as you put it. I have tried to remind people that each is entitled to an opinion without someone else trying to change it. I just get fed up of people trying to down someone else because they do something differently, and those who are doing this have no information whatsoever. I havent tried to say I am anyone special either so your question asking "Who I think I am" I find quite offensive!!

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Am somewhat in agreement, FHH...

BUT then there are other traditions and techniques - like female circumcision or the ducking stool - which, while traditional, are hard if not impossible to justify. The world moves on and newer, better techniques should rightly replace less favourable ones.

(Only my view, others have every right to their own.)


Indeed - although we are talking falconry here. To equate seeling with female circumcision is a little crass.

[Taffwall]

Ermmm hello. I havent said one way or the other that I like the proceedure or dont. I dont actually see a huge problem in what I have seen so far from pictures and explanations given by those who actually KNOW something about it. I havent tried to change anyones opinions, merely asked people to show some respect for others views rather than try and force a change of views on them. ANd I dont think I have "gone on" as you put it. I have tried to remind people that each is entitled to an opinion without someone else trying to change it. I just get fed up of people trying to down someone else because they do something differently, and those who are doing this have no information whatsoever. I havent tried to say I am anyone special either so your question asking "Who I think I am" I find quite offensive!!

No offence meant at all. Have read through the thread and you seem to pop up on many of the pages with the same sort of thing- which seems to be having a go at people who have disagreed with the technique.
The point i was trying to make, which is the bit that has offended you , i think, is that you are having a go at people who disagree with the technique as they have little experience or knowledge of it. In the same way you have little experience of the technique also?Do you see what i meant?

I don't think that people are saying the author of the thread is a bad person or attacking him personally for what he does(not acceptable), which is what you seem to be implying. They are merely expressing their distaste for the technique in general (Which is acceptable).

[PenelopeP]

No offence meant at all. Have read through the thread and you seem to pop up on many of the pages with the same sort of thing- which seems to be having a go at people who have disagreed with the technique.
The point i was trying to make, which is the bit that has offended you , i think, is that you are having a go at people who disagree with the technique as they have little experience or knowledge of it. In the same way you have little experience of the technique also?Do you see what i meant?

I don't think that people are saying the author of the thread is a bad person or attacking him personally for what he does(not acceptable), which is what you seem to be implying. They are merely expressing their distaste for the technique in general (Which is acceptable).

The bit thats annoying me is people who are out of hand making comments without knowing any of the facts. Surely to be so greatly opposed to something like some are expressing on here it would make some sense to actually know something about it, otherwise what are you opposing to exactly? Thats the point I am trying to make. Take Barry for instance, he gave valid educated reasons for not liking the proceedure as he has seen first hand poor examples of it. You see it every day in life. Its just like the antis who oppose us and what we do yet have never seen it nor know anything about it> Would you so readily defend them and their views and opinions. Somehow I dont think you would. I believe you would try to educate them and show them what we do so they can make an informed judgement on us and what we do. Thats all Im trying to point out to people with this.

[Paddy1]

:supz:The bit thats annoying me is people who are out of hand making comments without knowing any of the facts. Surely to be so greatly opposed to something like some are expressing on here it would make some sense to actually know something about it, otherwise what are you opposing to exactly? Thats the point I am trying to make. Take Barry for instance, he gave valid educated reasons for not liking the proceedure as he has seen first hand poor examples of it. You see it every day in life. Its just like the antis who oppose us and what we do yet have never seen it nor know anything about it> Would you so readily defend them and their views and opinions. Somehow I dont think you would. I believe you would try to educate them and show them what we do so they can make an informed judgement on us and what we do. Thats all Im trying to point out to people with this.



well said

[Taffwall]

My last post on this matter (honest lol)

Thanks to this thread and a number of informed responses from people on both sides of the argument, and from several different countries around the world, i am able to make a more balanced opinion of the technique, which i have no experience of or even heard about before it was mentioned here.

I still strongly disagree with it. I also think that anti field sports or not, if a reasonable person was in possession of the full facts of the reasons for and against the technique it would still be very hard to justify in a modern world.
However that is not a personal attack on the author in any way and i thank him for opening up such a good (if not a little controversial) debate which has lead to many people learning about such techniques. At the end of the day that's what the IFF is all about, Sharing knowledge and opinion:supz:

[OutHawkn]

Seeling isnt necassary with captive bred birds. It works best with passage only. So those without access to passage birds have sort of forgotten about it. Some make comments about things that they have no experience with and use thier emotions rather than facts. Not many, but some over here use these technique especially on prairie falcons And it can make a world of difference. It doesnt hurt the bird, they dont even flinch. And no a good fitting hood doesnt do the same thing. Until you've seen it done ,you really cant make an educated comment about it................

And for you folks that are just appalled at it and would have laws made against it. remember thier are a lot of people that are just as happy to make the keeping and hunting of BOP's illegal. So its not a far step from being one of the dreaded " Anti's:......

[HunterJen]

Zahid
I would just like to say I have no opinion to cast and having no experience or knowledge of such a process, I will not be making any biased comments or casting aspersions.
All I would like to say is thank you for being prepared to share your knowledge and experience with us, I know some people have taken it to heart and of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I would just like to say thank you as since the beginning of your thread I have learn a large amount and respect your culture.
Of course people think there are better and more "humane" methods but learning of your culture has been most interesting.

ATB Jenet

[Tony James]

If I may add my two cents here to this discussion about seeling and its pros and cons. Seeling is primarily done by trappers when they are out in the field, simply because a thread and needle take up much less space than two dozen hoods would. Secondly, a hood can be pulled off by a bird, but seeling cannot be undone by it. Thirdly, seeling - if properly done is much safer option than soft and ill fitting hoods that rub on the birds eyes and damage the eye, causing the growth of cataracts and subsequently blindness.

Furthermore, if two decades of experience is anything go by, then properly done, seeling is a better option than shoving an ill fitting hood on a bird that is not hood broken. Seeled birds calm done quicker, and consequently get manned and trained faster, than their unseeled cousins. I have trained both seeled and unseeled birds, and have always found that seeled birds were less stressed than the birds that had hood shoved on them from the moment they were caught.

To dilate further upon the effects of seeling on the birds' eyelids - if properly done and properly undone, no marks or scars remain after two days from the unseeling operation.

Personally I avoid seeling unless Im out afield and short of hoods or unless I plan to have a newly caught bird hunting in ten days. Seeling is an operation that is best done by those who know it well.

Dear Salman,

an excellent post, which sadly seems to cut no ice with some who seem incapable of considering that maybe, just maybe, there is value in things they don't understand.
Be it sealing, the screen perch, traditional jesses, leather leashes or the brail, there will be numerous people apparently willing to attack the poor falconer who declares he uses any of them (irrespective of the need or reason).
And yet, sometimes the most irresponsible or just plain ignorant bad practice attracts little attention or criticism, largely I fear because it is not recognised as such.
Sealing will remain a mystery to most european falconers. Given that our hawks are almost exclusively captive bred, and that we should all be in a position to make or purchase the finest fitting hoods, the debate is largely acedemic.
But thanks are due to people like yourself and Jim (Hatchero) for making the effort to post, when it must feel like banging your head against a brick wall.
Once more we can demonstrate our ability to do a better job of damaging each other than any outsider ever could.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[PenelopeP]

Dear Salman,

an excellent post, which sadly seems to cut no ice with some who seem incapable of considering that maybe, just maybe, there is value in things they don't understand.
Be it sealing, the screen perch, traditional jesses, leather leashes or the brail, there will be numerous people apparently willing to attack the poor falconer who declares he uses any of them (irrespective of the need or reason).
And yet, sometimes the most irresponsible or just plain ignorant bad practice attracts little attention or criticism, largely I fear because it is not recognised as such.
Sealing will remain a mystery to most european falconers. Given that our hawks are almost exclusively captive bred, and that we should all be in a position to make or purchase the finest fitting hoods, the debate is largely acedemic.
But thanks are due to people like yourself and Jim (Hatchero) for making the effort to post, when it must feel like banging your head against a brick wall.
Once more we can demonstrate our ability to do a better job of damaging each other than any outsider ever could.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Very well thought out post and very eloquantly put.

[Greg]

Well said Tony I agree 100%!
Greg


Dear Salman,

an excellent post, which sadly seems to cut no ice with some who seem incapable of considering that maybe, just maybe, there is value in things they don't understand.
Be it sealing, the screen perch, traditional jesses, leather leashes or the brail, there will be numerous people apparently willing to attack the poor falconer who declares he uses any of them (irrespective of the need or reason).
And yet, sometimes the most irresponsible or just plain ignorant bad practice attracts little attention or criticism, largely I fear because it is not recognised as such.
Sealing will remain a mystery to most european falconers. Given that our hawks are almost exclusively captive bred, and that we should all be in a position to make or purchase the finest fitting hoods, the debate is largely acedemic.
But thanks are due to people like yourself and Jim (Hatchero) for making the effort to post, when it must feel like banging your head against a brick wall.
Once more we can demonstrate our ability to do a better job of damaging each other than any outsider ever could.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[HunterJen]

Very well said Tony!
My own thoughts

ATB Jenet

[OutHawkn]

Dear Salman,

an excellent post, which sadly seems to cut no ice with some who seem incapable of considering that maybe, just maybe, there is value in things they don't understand.
Be it sealing, the screen perch, traditional jesses, leather leashes or the brail, there will be numerous people apparently willing to attack the poor falconer who declares he uses any of them (irrespective of the need or reason).
And yet, sometimes the most irresponsible or just plain ignorant bad practice attracts little attention or criticism, largely I fear because it is not recognised as such.
Sealing will remain a mystery to most european falconers. Given that our hawks are almost exclusively captive bred, and that we should all be in a position to make or purchase the finest fitting hoods, the debate is largely acedemic.
But thanks are due to people like yourself and Jim (Hatchero) for making the effort to post, when it must feel like banging your head against a brick wall.
Once more we can demonstrate our ability to do a better job of damaging each other than any outsider ever could.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Tony, That was very well said, I didnt know you could write so well.........LOL

[Tony James]

Tony, That was very well said, I didnt know you could write so well.........LOL

Bill, I employ a ghost writer to do the good ones --- the bad ones are all my own work:lol:

[HallBeck]

Top post Tony

[OutHawkn]

Bill, I employ a ghost writer to do the good ones --- the bad ones are all my own work:lol:


..............:lol:

[reece697]

say no to sealing

[OutHawkn]

say no to sealing

Say no to people who make comments about things they have no experience with ...................:supz:

[SolidLeo]

Say no to people who make comments about things they have no experience with ...................:supz:

Xactly... i agree with you....!!!!

[MattSpar]

Of course, if one thinks objectively about this, there's no difference between Eastern falconers using the sealing technique, and us in the U.K. docking the tails of our dogs. At least, I suppose, sealing has a practical use, unlike docking, which is often done for cosmetic reasons.

[Graham Stuart]

Of course, if one thinks objectively about this, there's no difference between Eastern falconers using the sealing technique, and us in the U.K. docking the tails of our dogs. At least, I suppose, sealing has a practical use, unlike docking, which is often done for cosmetic reasons.
not any more as its banned:yawinkle:

[HallBeck]

Of course, if one thinks objectively about this, there's no difference between Eastern falconers using the sealing technique, and us in the U.K. docking the tails of our dogs. At least, I suppose, sealing has a practical use, unlike docking, which is often done for cosmetic reasons.

I suspect you are stirring up a right hornets nest here - but i do agree with you. I don't like the docking of dogs tails. It infringes at least one of the "5 Freedoms".

Don't even get me started on ear clipping..............

[HallBeck]

not any more as its banned:yawinkle:

no its not!

[MattSpar]

I suspect you are stirring up a right hornets nest here - but i do agree with you. I don't like the docking of dogs tails. It infringes at least one of the "5 Freedoms".

Don't even get me started on ear clipping..............

I don't intend to get into a discussion regarding the morality of sealing or docking which is why I used the word "objectively".

[Bluejay]

If things are practised in your country which you think may be hard for others to understand, keep it to yourself. NOt because we nessacary disagree but for what is best for falconry?

If this is your belief than maybe we should look at changing the name of this forum from the International Falconry Forum to the British Falconry Forum. There are issues in British falconry that has little or no concern to other falconers around the world and vice versa. American falconry is practiced differently to british or european falconry, the same can be said for African falconry. If we as international Falconers have to mind our P's and Q's about our experiences and techniques because it may conflict with views of british falconers and their internal issues, then I don't see the point of this forum. The purpose of this site should be for falconers to exchange information and share their experiences.

[OutHawkn]

If this is your belief than maybe we should look at changing the name of this forum from the International Falconry Forum to the British Falconry Forum. There are issues in British falconry that has little or no concern to other falconers around the world and vice versa. American falconry is practiced differently to british or european falconry, the same can be said for African falconry. If we as international Falconers have to mind our P's and Q's about our experiences and techniques because it may conflict with views of british falconers and their internal issues, then I don't see the point of this forum. The purpose of this site should be for falconers to exchange information and share their experiences.

Yes, I agree, but ....without judgement.

[Bluejay]

Yes, I agree, but ....without judgement.

Forgot that last bit, but well said:supz:

[Kristoferu]

Indeed - although we are talking falconry here. To equate seeling with female circumcision is a little crass.

I think you are choosing to avoid the point I made - that the world moves on, sometimes for the better. But that's your choice.

[EdenJohnny]

The old boys used to seal ferrets mouths shut to stop them killing rabbits, take it that doesnt go on anymore for obvious reasons, personaly think you must be pretty heartless to sew up mouths or eyes of any animal.
or chop off their tails(dogs) put metal in there mouths (horses) Tie them to a perch (B O P ) Pull thir T its (cows) or cut off their hair (sheep) its endless,

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I think you are choosing to avoid the point I made - that the world moves on, sometimes for the better. But that's your choice.

No, I took your point but I felt that using the emotive subject of female circumcision in relation to a procedure on animals was crass and designed to elicit a response from me as a woman. Had you equated the procedure to Halal slaughter that would have elicited a different response.

Hope this clears things up.

[Ben C]

God god almightly....:evil: