Reward for coming without being called..

[Wheels9R]

I've heard on a few threads that some people are suggesting rewarding a bird for coming to the fist without being called.:confused:

I have been taught that when your bird comes to you, whether it be during creance training or in the field, you are too cast the bird away and maybe call them back to a reward shortly after. Which makes sense to me because the bird learns that when it is called it will defenately get a reward, which obviously is good.

If you reward for coming without being called, could it create a bad habit, something like coming to you rather than sitting high in a tree while waiting on a flush, or even swoop down at you while following on?

What do you do if your bird comes to you without being called?...reward or not, and can you explain why.

My only experiance of training has been a M & FHH, so i dont know whether training methods are different for other birds.

[PenelopeP]

If my bird comes to fist without being called, there isnt usually anything on the fist, so he gets nothing. He gets put back and called again to a reward. Good thing is tho, out in the field if he goes at something in the open and misses Such as at bunnies in open warren, he will turn in the air and come back to the fist with or without a reward waiting, depends if Ive had time to get one on fist. lol If hes chasing game, he usually chases for a decent distance and ends up in cover/trees so Ive always got a reward waiting on fist, or call to a bare lure, then pick up with garnished glove.

[Mikker]

Never reward without calling,
When called(whistle)he sometimes gets a reward(variable and hidden in the glove)
Works for me

[Flea]

I would never want my hawk to sit high in a tree for a reflush.
I just wish it would come down when called with no food, it would save me juggling with a 1/2 frozen pheasant :lol:
Sometimes it wont come down at all, when it does it gets fed. called or otherwise.

[Kitana]

When training a bird always keep in mind that you will get the behaviors that you reward. So think hard about it, and decide if you like it when your bird comes before being called, or not. Then the answer will be simple.

In my case, the rewards are few and far between, and always given when the hawk perform something I like very much: landing ahead of me when following on, flying in circles above me. Animals repeat behaviors that bring rewards, so if you keep that in mind and decide which behavior you want to see more of and which you would rather not see again, you can decide if you want to reward or not.

[Venividevenatio]

I think it was the great Jack Mavrogordato that in the days of wild taken birds, said words to the effect of 'a goshawk that does not come to the fist for no reward is not worth keeping'.

[Little Joe]

If you reward a bird for coming to the fist without being called, it is training you, not the other way round.

When hunting with a shortwing, you want the bird to consider the fist its best hunting perch. It has to come back to the fist quickly after each missed slip. You cannot possibly consider rewarding at a time like this, because it would immediately destroy your hunt, since the focus will shift from game to the food on the glove. If the hawk is in yarak (as it should be), it will want to be on the glove at all times, because it knows it will be rewarded with a suitable flush from that position.

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

personaly, i like a bird that is happy to come to the fist for no reward, but a bird that come before it is callled can be annoying, especialy if its abird that gets ****ed if you dont reward it everytime it comes.

for me, a bird that happily comes to an ungarnished fist, especialy in a hunting situation, shows a greater deal of trust from the bird and also that it knows you can be a good vantage point in open ground. if your out hunting and you call your following on HH to a peice of food every time its not long before the birds appatite begins to deminish, and commitment to a slip wavers.

if a bird come without being called, then generaly i will avoid puting the glove up if i can, young birds will often end up sitting on your head or back at first, which is ok if its not footy :lol: but if the bird is coming and i gont put the glove up the bird will either fly past or land on the ground and round round my feet :lol: but there are a couple of birds at my work that if they come without being called, you have no option but to offer the glove :cool:

[HallBeck]

[quote=Little Joe;943951]If you reward a bird for coming to the fist without being called, it is training you, not the other way round.
quote]

Not necessarily. What happens if you want the bird to come without being called?

[PenelopeP]

[quote=Little Joe;943951]If you reward a bird for coming to the fist without being called, it is training you, not the other way round.
quote]

Not necessarily. What happens if you want the bird to come without being called?

But surely if you want the bird to come you would call it :rolleyes::lol:

[HallBeck]

What happens if you want the bird to follow on - how do you reward it? - you can't! If you get a bird to follow on past you and then reward it by calling it in - what you have done is reward it for coming back to you, not for following on past you. But if every now and again as the bird flies past you , you stick you hand up and give a small reward then the bird learns that following on past you might get a reward. Its a good way of getting the bird to follow on past you - instead of lagging behind.

There is also the difference of calling a bird to come and rewarding it for coming. Basically if all you ever do is whistle for your bird to come - but that whistle is never rewarded - then the whistle ceases to mean anything. If however you occasionally reward when whistling to stimulate a follow on - then the bird will learn that the whistle means "if i come now, then i might get a reward"

Its no different to, when stooping a falcon to a lure, that its a good idea to let the falcon catch you out occasionally. That way the falcon will learn that it doesn't just get the lure when you allow it - but that by paying attention and trying hard that it can earn an early reward.

[Little Joe]

[quote=Little Joe;943951]If you reward a bird for coming to the fist without being called, it is training you, not the other way round.
quote]

Not necessarily. What happens if you want the bird to come without being called?

I understand where you coming from, but I do it a little differently. Just as you would sometimes let a falcon catch you out when doing passes, you will walk away from the hawk you trying to teach to follow on, but sometimes when its already airborne, you hold out the garnished glove. Sometimes you just ignore it - it will then land on a suitable perch nearby, effectively following on. Just as the falcon never knows when it will manage to tag the lure and be rewarded, the hawk never knows when the glove will appear. So its always anticipating a reward and therefore wants to stay close to you, following on. The key to my method is to offer the glove when the bird is already airborne. So you are calling it, but after it has already decided to follow on. This way you reward following on, but you dont guarantee that there will be reward every time.

[HawkMom]

There is a reason why a small bird such as my Barbary comes when not called. Usually a larger raptor in the area, so he wants to get to his falconer for safety. I always offer a reward.

My old red-tail used to come to me at dusk. She wanted to go to bed.

[Kitana]

What happens if you want the bird to follow on - how do you reward it? - you can't! If you get a bird to follow on past you and then reward it by calling it in - what you have done is reward it for coming back to you, not for following on past you.

You can tell the bird what behavior you are rewarding by using a sound called a bridge or an event marker. Whistle, clicker, "yes", click of the tongue, flashlight, whatever. Just like dolphins that are trained to jump and touch targets out of the water, when they do something good they hear the whistle and come for their reward. However to do such a training you really need the bridge because if you just call the bird down he may understand wrongly.

If you open up the very last video on Lydia's website you will see the results when the hawk knows that the behavior done when he hears the bridge brings reward...

http://www.themodernapprentice.com/games.htm

[Albie]

[quote=HallBeck;943962]

But surely if you want the bird to come you would call it :rolleyes::lol:

My Owl is trained to come to the fist with a whistle, he knows then he is definatley going to get food.
However he is also trained like my HH was, if you also train your bird by lifting your ungloved hand above your head when he he is looking towards you it works as a silent call to join you.
This method I use in training to follow on.

[Greg]

Having got a good few years under my belt at this game I've obviously made a few mistakes along the way. A long time ago I made the mistake of rewarding a Red-Tail everytime it came to the fist. I had only intended to do this for a short time during it's training. However the RT had slightly different ideas and started to be very unsettled when it returned to the fist and recieved no reward. It also had the idea in it's head that if it left the fist it could fly in a large circle return to the fist and recieve a reward. This led to the bird constantly bating which led to many missed genuine slips. It took a full season to break the bird of the habbit. As they say live and learn!

[Tony James]

Having got a good few years under my belt at this game I've obviously made a few mistakes along the way. A long time ago I made the mistake of rewarding a Red-Tail everytime it came to the fist. I had only intended to do this for a short time during it's training. However the RT had slightly different ideas and started to be very unsettled when it returned to the fist and recieved no reward. It also had the idea in it's head that if it left the fist it could fly in a large circle return to the fist and recieve a reward. This led to the bird constantly bating which led to many missed genuine slips. It took a full season to break the bird of the habbit. As they say live and learn!

Hi Greg,

I've made that mistake myself with merlins. A small reward after an abortive flight can quickly convince a merlin that it has only to leave the fist for a brief circuit to get another:rolleyes:

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Little Joe]

Hi Greg,

I've made that mistake myself with merlins. A small reward after an abortive flight can quickly convince a merlin that it has only to leave the fist for a brief circuit to get another:rolleyes:

Best wishes,

Tony.

I have exactly the same issue with a lanneret right now, but I think I'm starting to win, slowly but surely.

[Sean D]

Having got a good few years under my belt at this game I've obviously made a few mistakes along the way. A long time ago I made the mistake of rewarding a Red-Tail everytime it came to the fist. I had only intended to do this for a short time during it's training. However the RT had slightly different ideas and started to be very unsettled when it returned to the fist and recieved no reward. It also had the idea in it's head that if it left the fist it could fly in a large circle return to the fist and recieve a reward. This led to the bird constantly bating which led to many missed genuine slips. It took a full season to break the bird of the habbit. As they say live and learn!

Got a mhh with the same problem, he thinks if he jumps on the floor he can jump back to the fist for a reward, even though I have never rewarded him for this behaviour he still tries it every now and then

[PD Harris]

my harris hawk wont come to the glove at all with out it being garnished unles doing jump ups with rope on garden and thats only if i pretend to garnish glove before raising my hand above head and when she following on if i pick my hand up and whistle her she will start to come but soon as she sees nothing in my hand she lands in trees next to me and wont come most times with out holding my hand up when whistling she just hates being on my hand at all no matter how long a day i sit with her there,ive even tried just flying her from glove in woods but she just spent nearly 2 hours bating off all way round and its very rare she goes in front of me following on always waits behind and we always flush everything out for her so its not as if she self hunts

[Bird Girl]

i use my glove to get my bird out of a situation which could be dangerous, to get him to a good position to slip at prey, or reward for a good attempt or stylish flight. all of which are positive for him. i use rewards randomly. if im getting the hawk into a good position for a slip from the fist, i dont reward, her reward is my providing of an oppurtunity. my bird comes to my fist bang on every time i call it. full crop, empty crop it doesnt matter. this is only because when manning my bird i put a huge amount of time into glove work. i.e never holding them back on a bait, if it wants to go it can go, offering him away before he want to go, never casting, he flys if and when he wants to. hand feeding with no jesses. we have a huge amount of trust between us and i try to never let his trust be affected. i also feel the best way to get a bird to follow on is to flush for it and make yourself usefull to him. he will learn the advantage of being ahead of you. this is naturally the way a hh hunts. the hawk only comes when called. if it flys to me without a call my hands stay by my side and i ignore the bird and keep walking. it soon learns theres no point coming if not called.

[Greg]

Ain't you a saint!
No to be serious just try ignoring a big female gos or RT that has decided to come in hard and fast and is determined to land! It can be done but is not for the feint hearted. (brown trousers may be useful!)

i use my glove to get my bird out of a situation which could be dangerous, to get him to a good position to slip at prey, or reward for a good attempt or stylish flight. all of which are positive for him. i use rewards randomly. if im getting the hawk into a good position for a slip from the fist, i dont reward, her reward is my providing of an oppurtunity. my bird comes to my fist bang on every time i call it. full crop, empty crop it doesnt matter. this is only because when manning my bird i put a huge amount of time into glove work. i.e never holding them back on a bait, if it wants to go it can go, offering him away before he want to go, never casting, he flys if and when he wants to. hand feeding with no jesses. we have a huge amount of trust between us and i try to never let his trust be affected. i also feel the best way to get a bird to follow on is to flush for it and make yourself usefull to him. he will learn the advantage of being ahead of you. this is naturally the way a hh hunts. the hawk only comes when called. if it flys to me without a call my hands stay by my side and i ignore the bird and keep walking. it soon learns theres no point coming if not called.

[Bird Girl]

yeh i no mate sum of us are just naturals l0l:box:
it dont really make any difference if its a harris a gos or a red tail, it shouldnt be flying at ure head aggressivly if its bin trained right in the first place. i thought this was about wether to reward birds if they fly to you without being called? i didnt no we were talking about aggressive birds, or i wasnt anyway. :yawinkle:

[Greg]

yeh i no mate sum of us are just naturals l0l:box:
it dont really make any difference if its a harris a gos or a red tail, it shouldnt be flying at ure head aggressivly if its bin trained right in the first place. i thought this was about wether to reward birds if they fly to you without being called? i didnt no we were talking about aggressive birds, or i wasnt anyway. :yawinkle:

Now I didn't mention aggressive birds or flying at head! You obviously read different words to the rest of us. You are demonstrating a lack of experience to talk about this topic so I won't bother to post on it again. I have noticed in some of your past posts that you obviously enjoy confrontational remarks and questions and are unable to maintain a civilized debate!
Greg

[Little Joe]

Ain't you a saint!
No to be serious just try ignoring a big female gos or RT that has decided to come in hard and fast and is determined to land! It can be done but is not for the feint hearted. (brown trousers may be useful!)

I dunno what you are worried about. Offer the glove and toss it! You wanna pee drops you try that with a seriously bad tempered eagle. Now go discipline your buzzard!

[Bird Girl]

Now I didn't mention aggressive birds or flying at head! You obviously read different words to the rest of us. You are demonstrating a lack of experience to talk about this topic so I won't bother to post on it again. I have noticed in some of your past posts that you obviously enjoy confrontational remarks and questions and are unable to maintain a civilized debate!
Greg

hang on if a bird is flying hard and fast at you and determined to land its either aggressive, over keen or very bad mannered, in which case it shouldnt be flown. maybe the reason i havent experianced this sort of behaviour from a bird is because all my birds are well mannered and well trained.
some times i play devils advocate, im not the only one on here who does it and its interesting to see peoples arguments to debates. this isnt a competion on whos the most experianced everyone is entitled to an opinion, and i was just writing about how i personally train my birds to follow on, if i came across as being arrogant in my post about my birds then it wasnt the intention, but its hard to get the right message across or the way of saying it on the internet, things can be read wrongly. and i think you were a little bit rude, which i came back at with a sarcastic remark, which was a joke.

[SilverLeapers]

Having got a good few years under my belt at this game I've obviously made a few mistakes along the way. A long time ago I made the mistake of rewarding a Red-Tail everytime it came to the fist. I had only intended to do this for a short time during it's training. However the RT had slightly different ideas and started to be very unsettled when it returned to the fist and recieved no reward. It also had the idea in it's head that if it left the fist it could fly in a large circle return to the fist and recieve a reward. This led to the bird constantly bating which led to many missed genuine slips. It took a full season to break the bird of the habbit. As they say live and learn!

A friend had a similar problem and is trying to correct it now....she never knew if the hawk was flying at game or just to go pitch in a tree and then look to get fed again. I also does some scary flybys while following on and sometimes won't come unless it sees her reaching for the food bag. Bloody RTs are smart!

[Greg]

A friend had a similar problem and is trying to correct it now....she never knew if the hawk was flying at game or just to go pitch in a tree and then look to get fed again. I also does some scary flybys while following on and sometimes won't come unless it sees her reaching for the food bag. Bloody RTs are smart!

Thats just what they usually are (scary flybys)! Is this a passage bird we are talking about? Once the behaviour is instilled it takes a good while for them to stop, you just have to stick with it. It's a mistake that I will never repeat but sometimes that is how we learn. It happened to me back in 1970 and at that time there were very few people to get advice from so I had to work it out for myself. Mind you some people think they are so perfect they will never learn!

[Chris Hawke]

You can tell the bird what behavior you are rewarding by using a sound called a bridge or an event marker. Whistle, clicker, "yes", click of the tongue, flashlight, whatever. Just like dolphins that are trained to jump and touch targets out of the water, when they do something good they hear the whistle and come for their reward. However to do such a training you really need the bridge because if you just call the bird down he may understand wrongly.

If you open up the very last video on Lydia's website you will see the results when the hawk knows that the behavior done when he hears the bridge brings reward...

http://www.themodernapprentice.com/games.htm

that link is fascinating, my imagination is running wild!
the modern apprentice, exellent.
ive been on there before, but never clicked on games.
thank you for posting it
atvb
chris

[Dan Bray]

I cant imagine why anyone would reward a bird for coming to the fist without being called. You would be training the bird to become a pest and not focus on hunting.

[Chris Hawke]

Ain't you a saint!
No to be serious just try ignoring a big female gos or RT that has decided to come in hard and fast and is determined to land! It can be done but is not for the feint hearted. (brown trousers may be useful!)


your post just reminded me;
i tried ignoring,( keeping my hand's by my side, witholding reward) with my old f red tail, when trying to get her following on..
a couple of times, she smashed me. once in the back of the head,
and once in the face, as i turned, to see where she was.
i remember being in quite a panick, as there was allot of blood.
rushed home, looked in mirror, it was only a nick in my nose:oops:
but nevertheless ,definately not for the faint hearted or the good looking:grin:.

[PD Harris]

isis always follows but wont come down to glove unless ive got food out when she does realise were on a certain pad back to car she always comes low past and some times just clips me with her wing tips to remind me she is there lol