Scottish peregrines

[Goldie]

I have posted this seperate from the thread started by Finnish so not to clutter his post regarding taking orders for Scottish peregrines.

What makes a Scottish peregrine ? By my reckoning there isn't such a species. I know we talk of them and also Welsh pere's and Irish pere's although funnily enough I've never heard the term English pere :?

I hear you say Scottish pere's are bigger and that may be due to the fact
they are further north and in a colder climate which seems to apply to other birds also i.e. Fin Gos but surely a pere is a pere in real terms no matter where it comes from in the UK.

If we are going on bloodlines then as we have been unable to wild take for many many years and apart from the odd wild disabled being used it would seem that there cant be many true lines that haven't been diluted or for that matter inbred and in either case surely the true size of these birds will have been reduced

So can any one shed any light on the subject of the so called Scottish Peregrine

[Shaun Byrne]

Good post Goldie. If you mention "Scottish Peregrine" to most folk they always talk as though they are bigger and more aggressive. Not being a Pere expert, I dont know and couldnt tell the difference between any of them.

[MickeyDredd]

Goldie

When I did my apprenticeship a number of years ago I'm sure I was taught that Peregrinus Perigrinus was the Scottish peregrine although I'm not aware of any other Latin name for Welsh etc peregrine (no expert on Latin names so could be wrong) so it could relate to native UK peregrine.

Also peregrines will travel from Scottish nest sites to other UK countries e.g I know of a peregrine from a Lothian & Borders nest that was picked up near Dublin.

With regard to bloodlines there are a surprising number of injured wild Scottish peregrine injured each year (often winged by shotgun!) and I know of two handed in this year to local falconers/breeders.

One, a big falcon, was observed by a local keeper feeding on a dead goose one day and the next day when he passed it was on a fence post by a track and he was able to pick it up!! It had lead shot in its wing.

This bird was from the same nest as the one picked up near Dublin. (it had a split ring and a pit tag on).

[Chris S]

only difference is the price they are all british peregrines,same as if you have a dark pere is it a peales?

[GriffMJ]

Lo Goldie

I am not aware of any Sub species of Peregrine that can be defined as Welsh, Scottish, Irish or English? If by the fact that they are bred in Scotland then maybe the term is correct.

I suppose that a Welsh Peregrine would be as good as a Scottish Pere as its just as cold on the cliffs of Wales than the Highlands of Scotland....and I would not think that the geographical location of either Pere would cause much difference in the hunting instinct of either?

Unless there is a marked genetic difference between the two locations (which I doubt) we should say any (wild) Peregrine is just the normal British Peregrine?

Other falcons have marked regional Sub species, the Lanner for example, but ....its "region" covers the mediteranean and northern Africa etc ....a land mass considerably bigger than the UK and large enough to create that kind of diversity of sub species.

I speak with no authority, of course, other than what I have read in relevant books. having said all that ...I would be very happy if there were such a thing as a Peregrine that can truly be described as Welsh (biologically) as I would have one out pure National pride (there's lovley!)

[Dave Whitt]

only difference is the price they are all british peregrines,same as if you have a dark pere is it a peales?

Are you saying that a Peals Peregrine is the same as a "British Peregrine" it is only colour that makes tham different ?

If so I must beg to differ, I have always ben led to belive that peals were bigger as well as darker I saw a imprint tiercel flown on a BFC field meet it`s flying weight was apparantly 1lb 14oz it certainalyy looked bigger than my Gyr / Peregrine that flew at 1lb 12oz someone please correct me if im wrong.

[Bullet_Jesses]

Gents !
The Scottish peregrine was and still is, considered the purest form of the Peregrine falcon. The term “Scottish Peregrine” (falco peregrinus, peregrinus) has been used in Britain for many, many years, perhaps even hundreds of years and may even had been originated by the English royalty themselves. Since the largest concentration of peregrines in the British Isles was unquestionably in Scotland, the procurement or harvesting for the British aristocracy was from Scotland. It’s a fact, there were a number of Scottish falconers who were paid, full-time falconers, to the British royal family over the years. Most, if not all the peregrines that they used, would have undoubtedly come from Scotland. The traditional hunting trips of the Royals would more often than not, take them north of the border.
With the advent of firearms, Peregrines and many other birds of prey (including the Gos) were decimated throughout Britain. The Scottish highlands would have been the last refuge for the Peregrine Falcon. Least we should also forget, the bounty that was placed on Peregrines in England and perhaps even the East coast of Scotland(unsure?) during the great wars, all but wiped out the Peregrine in England.You could quite conceivably contribute the complete recovery of the Peregrine, to the Scottish stock! Food for thought? And if you really want to be politically correct? Then I guess you could call it a British Peregrine. I have a German Sheppard at home, maybe now is the time to call it an American Sheppard. LOL Jim.C

[Goran]

Bullet-Jesses, if your German sheppard has not been tested by German Sheppard Breed Standard from Germany he is Shiloh Sheppard.All the bad and undesirable in German Sheppard is in this new Am. breed.You figure it out.
Peales peregrine is found only on some islands on west coast of Canada.It has bigger wings and is very robust peregrine.

[Bullet_Jesses]

8) Goran !
I have a confession to make! she isn't a purebred, she's a Shepherd huskey/timberwolf.She is 14 years old runs like the wind and doesn't look a day more than 5yrs old.By the way, LOL ? means laugh out loud.

[LeighJauncey]

Anyone using trinomial classification - especially with falcons - is asking for trouble - taxonomically very unsound!

[Bill]

I tend to agree that you would expect the bloodlines to get pretty mixed, especially after the reductionin numbers in the 60's.

However, what would account for the great preference of pre war falconers for Lundy Island peregrines (that's pretty close to Welsh Griff!)
Their experience seemed to indicate better hunters from there.

[Goldie]

Lots of good imput guys, just what I was looking for when I started the thread

[OutFlying]

Some breeders who keep records of their falcons will trace the original F1 falcons back to a certain location. Only these could be guaranteed to be a Scottish peregrine unless it was an English male one that went north for an easy lay or a deep fried grouse-------------------------- :shock:


only joking. :wink:

[OutFlying]

http://www.scottishperegrines.co.uk/

[Varmint]

I have three pairs of Scottish Peregrines all of which are very similar.

My pairs originate from F1 wild disabled parents from both Perthshire and Argyle.

Although i have other Peregrines, the Scottish birds are a completly diff shape being Broad across the shoulders and very stumpy.

Big feet and a particularly heavy dark head and beak.

Whilst i would agree with several points made about the taxonimy of Uk Peregrines i would ask you to consider tha fact that Scotland never got hit as hard by pesticides as the rest of the country, so our Peregrines aren't quite as naturally diluted as some?

And as for Peales ect, they look completly different in both shape, size and colour.

The Scottish Peregrine as i know them are aggresive and hard hitting, but lack the focus on quarry which some sub species posses.

My 2 peneth for what it's worth!

[GriffMJ]

Hi

"The Nature" programme today on Radio 4 said that there had been a 30% reduction in the Scottish pere population in the Highlands of Scotland, whereas in the south and the Midlands of England the population has thrived. looks like the Scots have got a problem?

[MickeyDredd]

Griff

I'm amazed that the Sottish population would have reduced by that level, i was under the impression it was still on the increase. I'll see if I can dig out stats from the raptor monitoring info I have this weekend to see if it agrees.

Peregrines are actually now under-monitored by the raptor groups as thats how I got involved, they simply don't have enough manpower to cover all the species, so don't know if it is a like-for-like comparison (obviously should be to be meaningful).

[Bullet_Jesses]

:( I hate to say this gents but I’m going to say it anyway, in my opinion (for what it’s worth) there can be only 1 of 2 things that are causing the reduction of Scottish Peregrine.Game keepers and pigeon fanciers. It’s a fact(at least it was in my time) that most gamekeepers were encouraged to kill and destroy every hawk and falcon that they came across, despite the protectionist laws that existed. When I lived back in Scotland, a couple of my mates were game keepers. Since they were avid falconers, it broke their heart to have to do it, but they were given explicit instructions to kill every bird of prey that frequented the pheasant farm that they worked on. They were even given a substance, that when placed on bait (say rabbit) when the buzzards ate it they died within a few days. It wasn’t a poison (that would show up on an autopsy) but a chemical, that produced hypothermia. It‘s ironic that the land owners who most likely had buddies in the house of lords or perhaps sat there themselves, were passing laws to protect peregrines and hawks, yet when it came to their own territory? Would have them shot or poisoned.The RSPB(if that’s what it’s still called?) would be unable to have access or even try to have these illegal practices stopped on the lands of the wealthy landowners.Whenever they found say a spars nest on their land, they would take the young and place them in a Swedish gos trap that would allow them to trap and destroy the adults also.Are you feeling sick yet? Ironic to, was the fact that few if any falconers have been allowed to take young hawks or falcons from the wild for the purpose of falconry.
As far as the pigeon fanciers are concerned? They have always taken, whatever steps are necessary to minimize the impact on their birds.If they obtained information on the whereabouts of peregrines or spars they would not hesitate to destroy the nest and shoot the adults.Perhaps the pigeon fanciers have got hold of that white powder that the gamekeepers use and have been giving it to their slowest pigeons?
Just a thought!!!!!!!!!!!! Jim.C

[MickeyDredd]

: It’s a fact(at least it was in my time) that most gamekeepers were encouraged to kill and destroy every hawk and falcon that they came across

BJ

I'm not sure when your time was but things have improved to an extent in recent years, especially regarding the peregrine which is why I was surprised to hear numbers had declined by 30%, and as I said earlier I'll see if I can dig out some Scottish figures.

Raptors are still persecuted by keepers in Scotland and these keepers usually fall into two categories :

1/ Kill everything with a hooked beak as you describe

2/ "They know the balance" i.e. they do not wipe out the birds but do control their numbers.

I would also say that there are also more raptor-tolerant estates and keepers who leave the birds in peace than previously when, as you say, all raptors were pretty much culled on many estates.

Other keepers, rather than kill the birds will simply disturb the ground-nesters enough to make them desert and will do things like place a rock on the peregrine nest site out of breeding season so that it cannot nest there the following season, which is one of the reasons why it is now illegal to "disturb" the nest site at any time of year.

I've found that buzzards are actually considered the most hated species by pheasant/partridge rearers as they do a fair bit of damage at the pens and hen harrier mainly then peregrine are the hated species of the keeper.

I've personally nothing against keepers generally, they do a tough job in tough conditions and it must be hard to watch a peregrine eating into your grouse numbers when there are so few around. Hopefully we can come up with a solution to the problem - like a licence for falconers to take from the wild again :) assuming of course that numbers are not in decline.

Just my thoughts (to coin a well used footnote)

[MickeyDredd]

It would appear the wild Scottish Peregrine is on the decline - some stats:

The National peregrine survey was in 2002 and the results are published in the SOC's Raptor Round-Up for that year. The actual paper on the survey has not yet been published but will eventually be in the BTO's Bird Study.

Anyhow there were declines in several parts of Scotland particularly inland while the coastal areas generally had increases. In Tayside there were 4 occupied coastal home ranges compared with 2 in 1991 and 94 inland sites were occupied in both years but that did not show that there were declines in the west and central areas of Tayside and increases in Angus for example in quarries.

In Highland there were 54 occupied coastal home ranges in 1991 but oddly they dropped to 41 in 2002. In the inland sites, there were 120 occupied in 1991 but a drop to 79 in 2002. Inland sites in the NE also dropped from 51 in 1991 to to 42 in 2002. Coastal Argyll was bad with a drop of 63 to 43 and inland 40 to 30 between survey years. Persecution, degradation of habitat and pollution are still thought to be the reasons for the declines in some areas. Productivity in 2002 was also low.

[Sokoly]

Varmint, you say that you breed from disabled wild birds. How do you breed out of wild material? Free lofted in a chamber? Artificialy how?

[Falcons7]

I'll go along with Adrian,Scottish falcons are wider than they are long and very aggresive.I used to think it was because I flew nothing else but imprints so thought nothing of it but since I started breeding them I have found that parent reared birds are every bit as aggresive as imprints.
Sometimes you have to let the falcon kill its quarry before making in or your in for a hard time, particularly if its large,say pheasant or so .It seems that anything fighting back only ****es them off .