HELP INFORMATION WANTED

[JackWelsh2005]

been often female harris hawk when it is 12 weeks i have been advised to stay away from this bird by a good friend but i think he is being paranoid he says that the breeders avails is too open and taking it from it mother at 12 weeks old it will scream like mad if you cut it weigh down is he paranoid or is he right and should else where

[Dave Whitt]

Unfortunatley there are more peramiters to you have to be carfull with HH they will imprint easily, if the aviery is open this can be good for the young but more often than not it is bad, my advice is ask the breeder if he knows people who have had birds from him, contact them and see what they think, or post his name on the forum and see if anyone knows him. How much is he asking for the bird, remember "buy cheap - buy twice"

[Tyack]

Hi
I reckon taking chicks from their parents to early means that they have not had time to become independent, meaning that the chances of them imprinting on to you is a lot higher. ie YOU will take the place of it's parents as the provider of food, hence the screaming etc. Also Harris's take a little bit longer to fledge.

[Ben C]

It will scream at you mate............pretty much 100% certain. However that doesn't mean it will be a bad bird.

[Ben C]

If the breeder is griff from the welsh hawking centre I can vouch for them a) Being a bit noisy
b) Being absolutely F***ing ACE!

[JackWelsh2005]

now i am lost how can it be noisy and good at hunting if it screams at you and no it not from griff why what is his harris like

[Sparrow Hawker]

Personally I wouldn't purchase a Harris any younger than at least 16 weeks of age. I would always look for breeders that used enclosed chambers as well. That's just my opinion though :lol:

Regards,

HH

[Sparrow Hawker]

JackWelsh2005 if your after a breeder of Harris's from Wales I can recommend one, I purchased mine from a guy in South Wales and am very happy with the bird :D

Let me know and I can pass on his details.

Regards,

HH

[JackWelsh2005]

yes please if you dont mind will be very greatful

[ScotsFalconer]

i usually start training harris hawks at 16 weeks and at that sometimes you can get a screamer. i wud advise not letting it see you especially feeing it for a few weeks. when u feed it throw the food in or pass it through a feeding pipe direct to the bird so that it does not associate u with food. If you get a screamer it can get annoying especially for your neighbours. just keep it somewhere it cant see you then u shudnt have a problem until your ready to start training it.

[Sparrow Hawker]

JackWelsh2005 PM for you,

Regards,

HH

[Wightwings]

Personally I wouldn't purchase a Harris any younger than at least 16 weeks of age. I would always look for breeders that used enclosed chambers as well. That's just my opinion though

me to agree 100%. its also a good idea to leave it untoached for the first week or two to allow the adding of the few extra ounces they fail to gain being lofted with siblings.

[Ben C]

Because he is a 'little' bit noisy around the weathering and just before hunting, but as soon as he is in the hood and/or flying free he is silent and focused.

Griff does a blinding job....his bloodline is used by Emma Ford for Harris' and Bob Dalton buys birds others from him.

The Harris Hawks are creche reared with Aplomados and others. They are hard penned but with a 360 degree view and on public display. They come out very tame indeed and you do not need to fanny about pampering them for two weeks. Cody was eating off the first in the first 8 hours.

He is a solid little hunter and has gone from strength to strength taking a massive range of quarry in a huge range of styles.....All without a dog as well.

[Ben C]

Ultimately though go with what your mentor recomends on the course you have been on. Because as you can see opinions differ greatly. :) :)

[Coedhirion]

Choose carefully, dont jump at the first bird there are lots out there. Try to go by recomendation from some one who had a bird from that breeder last year, is a good idea. Go and look around if possible before comitting yourself. 12 weeks sounds a bit too young to me !!

[RabbitHawker]

I would always say you have to accept a bit of noise from Harris's the first season. In my experience the faster they are trained and catching their own food (even if it is a dummy bunny) the batter. If they get fed by you for weeks on end they will call for food, if they start hunting they will not look at you as the food source, and will be silent. My birds were a bit noisy early in the first season, but once hunting 3-5 days a week are silent.

[Ben C]

Also a further point, I know you are suppose to have em at 16 weeks plus, but once again I seem to be an anomoly in the Harris Hawk arena. (Inadvertantly) Mine was got at around 12 weeks, was killing rabbit and then pheasant way before the 16th week. As with rabbithawker the noise Cody makes is more along the lines of excitement and eagerness to go and have some fun. When he is overweight by a fraction (15 grams) he is not as responsive and is less vocal. This is also another anomoly I have experienced....My harris is very very sensitive to weight change.

However it all boils down to your mentor and what he feels is best.....sometimes there are just TOO many voices mate (I mean that in the nicest possible way). Good Luck :) :) :)

[Hawkmaster]

pretty much 100% certain
I would not agree, I would say it is a 40/60 thing, most the time they are OK, GET THEM HUNTING!
I would always say you have to accept a bit of noise from Harris's the first season.
Sorry RH, I have only had two that were, the first one still might be, lost contact after I left the centre and the other is 100% and has just had his first mating experience.

Like in all things in falconry, we can't just dismiss anything and everything, there are many things that work, Even for novices, but with guidance. Speak to the breeder, see what he thinks or maybe he will keep the bird longer for you?

A man that breeds from imported Canadian birds in Cornwall sells them all at 12 weeks and NEVER has had anyone complain about noise.

[Ed]

Sorry to jump in on the thread but Harris Hawker, could you PM me the details for the breeder in South Wales as well ?

Ta

Ed

[Sparrow Hawker]

Hi Ed,

Sure no worries PM for you.

All The Best,

HH

[Sparrow Hawker]

Choose carefully, dont jump at the first bird there are lots out there. Try to go by recomendation from some one who had a bird from that breeder last year, is a good idea. Go and look around if possible before comitting yourself. 12 weeks sounds a bit too young to me !!

Good Advice there,

Regards,

HH

[Varmint]

I would prob go for a bird of 15 weeks or slightly older but have in the past trained birds from as young as 12 weeks.

It all really depends on the situation?

If this is to be a second bird and will join your Adult male/Female on the weathering when in training, then expect noise hwatever age you get it!

If it is your firts bird, and as many beginners tend to do you take your time, keeping it low for prolonged periods and feeding often on the fist, then you might also encounter some noise and problems?

No HH is stupid and once a food association has been made, all effort must be put into increasing the young birds weight and confidence on quarry, taking yourself away as the providing focus.

Bordom is the main reason for noise in young Harris Hawks, kept in over keen condition for prolonged periods, waiting for their "Weekend" training flights, or yo-yo'd up and down in weight in an attempt to compensate for an over zealouse crop.

There are many factors for why a Harris Hawk might scream, all are connected with the way we relate to our birds and in return, how they relate to us. :lol:

[Ben C]

[quote="Varmint"]No HH is stupid and once a food association has been made, all effort must be put into increasing the young birds weight and confidence on quarry, taking yourself away as the providing focus.quote]

But what happens if when searching for this higher weight the desire and focus to smash through hedges, and fly like a maniac is reduced. Is this aim to improve the top weight needed in the first or second season? I fly Cody at a tight 680gram everyday. If he hits 700 or there abouts, there is a marked difference in his attitude and a tapering off of desire. He is then slow off the fist and prefers easier kills.

But as I say his noise is not a bother. Its only in the morning after his casting and quite random for about 1hr. Then when he is hooded he settles down.

Sorry to go off topic Jackwelsh2005, I'll only do it once :D :D

I will also add Jack, and this is an extreme case of preparation. We moved house to accomodate our hawk, just in case he screamed. Took us about 6 months but we did it none the less. No neighbours and smack bang in the middle of an estate. So thats another option mate. :D :D

[Varmint]

The motivation to fly at higher weights comes from an increased confidence on prey and an increased excersise regime.

The Russian sfly their overweight Gos's on appetite in really cold weather getting them real high and flying them after a 24hr fast.
Seems to work very well and combats the need to have their birds screwed down in weight in extreme weathers.

Have you ever tried anything like this ben?

Once your bird is killing well, feeding up on kills and flying daily, it will be too busy to think about screamng for food.

I have 2 creche reared boys that fly daily, they are both last years birds and make little or no noise, but then they are flying at weights heigher than they came out of the creche at?

The moral of this story is dont expect any HH to be totally silent, a silent , happy HH takes a lot of work and lots of thought!!

[Ben C]

I have inadvertantly tried the method you describe, and looking back through the reams of my diary there was a blip in my observations. Which is in fact a replica for the type of approach described.

Successfully feeding from a kill at 680grams til bursting, then skip a day because he was at 740grms. Fly the next day at 710 grams with even greater success (5lb Cock Pheasant into a stream, without any cover and pheasant gaining height). A subsequent bad pick up and I MEAN **** POOR, and his enthusiasm seemed to taper off.

I was quoted a creche weight of 1lb 14oz? But there is no way on earth he would fly at that weight or above. I shall experiment when he comes back out of the weathering, starting low and keep adding 15 grams, but only after successfully feeding from kills.

Which book can I get the russian information on?

Cheers
Ben

[Varmint]

Sorry ben no idea which book? i was given the information direct from a Russian friend who flies Goshawks in temp's of minus 20 and below on a daily basis!

[Varmint]

Something which you might want to consider is the fact that the weight of a bird doesnt really reflect their state of mind, many people get hung up with weight, when they should be considering which positive area's of behaviour has my bird been rewarded for today, building on not just physical peaks but mental ones too.

It takes the whole 9 yrds to really start to see your bird develop, most austringers never really get their birds reach that point in their relationship? for some birds this state of mind may not occur until their 3rd ofr 4th season and once the mind is mature and of the right attitude, major feats may be achieved!

Thats my approach on it anyway :wink:

[Ben C]

most austringers never really get their birds reach that point in their relationship? for some birds this state of mind may not occur until their 3rd ofr 4th season

Keep on keeping on then. I have given myself a rough target of five years to get him fully 'switched' on, so that sort of ties in with what your saying. I reason its going to take that long to identify what these 'mental' peaks look like in terms of behaviour, rather than assuming its all down to weight. I havn't read a book yet or spoken to anyone who can point to a certain behavioural trait and say...."this is so and so and means this".
Interestingly Hollinshead writes the same thing in his books, describing levels of motivation/mind as being key. But once again fails to map out an exacting description of what 'that' might be.

Just good old time, effort, observation and hard work I suppose?

[Varmint]

Thats what it comes down to mate!

What really helps is when your able to work with imprint HH's as they show their truly natural behaviour in your company, then this can be applied to the Parent reared bird and help you understand stance, vocalisation, flight behaviour ect, ect.

Great fun to learn, Im affriad that i am not a big fan of the author you mentioned but he is on the right track where his birds are concerned.

If you want specific's optimum behaviour characteristics, then we can discuss some, but im affriad my friend that once again i must stop rattling the keyboard and starting covering some miles, cause im off to sunny Northern Ireland!

We can pick this thread up when i get back if you wish?

[Ben C]

Definately :)