Why leather?

[ColdZero]

...

[Ben C]

Well CZ you have answered your own question....light strong et etc. In the case of gloves and hoods it is far easier to tool and manipulate I woulg duess.

As for lasting longer, not really an issue as most furniture gets changed around every year. Apart from the stuff like gloves which last a lifetime.

I also think it has a lot to do with tradition and basically leather smells really nice. :) :)

[Falconry Equipment International]

Well CZ you have answered your own question....light strong et etc. In the case of gloves and hoods it is far easier to tool and manipulate I woulg duess.
As for lasting longer, not really an issue as most furniture gets changed around every year. Apart from the stuff like gloves which last a lifetime.
I also think it has a lot to do with tradition and basically leather smells really nice. :) :)
Ben, Funnily enough as a master saddler I prefer to use leather for many reasons, but if there is a better/ stronger/ more flexible product available then I will use it, ie goretex braces & now I have trialed and am using goretex bewits. this season I will be trialling goretex jesses & if all goes to plan will have acomplete range of them available for the falconers fair next year.
Also the smell of leather these days like most other things can come in a bottle and is readily avaialble in industry :roll:. If you buy a new car ( the new car smell is designed to last about 6 weeks . the 'leather smell' lasts approximately 5 times that~ about 6 months). Yes there is less work in just cutting out leather, but leather ha s to be looked after, there is more work in using a man made material , but surely if they are more comfortable on the hawks legs, , More pliable, durable need no maintenance will surely this is a step forward?
regards
SJ

[Ben C]

The pliability factor is very important admitedly.....durability isn't an issue as the furniture is changed annually.

As for maintainence (and this is purely personal) I love the process and time spent adding Koa Cho Line etc. I like the fact that it is natural and that along with other materials (wood and clay for example, not in falconry, just in everyday usage) humans have been using them forever. I think it is a Ray Mears type thing going on in my head :) :)

However I am not a luddite and would never turn me nose up at a new invention.

(I am saying this only to you SJ so no one else hears.......I got some furniture with gore-tex in at the falconry fair.....looks good, doesn't feel nice though) :) :) :) :).

[Falconry Equipment International]

The pliability factor is very important admitedly.....durability isn't an issue as the furniture is changed annually.

As for maintainence (and this is purely personal) I love the process and time spent adding Koa Cho Line etc. .:shock: you must be a masochist the ben! Nasty, icky, sticky stuff, smells of chemicals and is a ****** to get off your hands( keeps em soft tho ;o))
I like the fact that it is natural and that along with other materials (wood and clay for example, not in falconry, just in everyday usage) humans have been using them forever. I think it is a Ray Mears type thing going on in my head :) :) or davy crocket :wink: , see rest of my post below!

However I am not a luddite and would never turn me nose up at a new invention. I was just about to ask you if you use braided terelene(etc) leashes as when I started falconry it was still de-rigeuer(sp?) to have leather leashes & with the inroduction of man made leshes got a lot of flack to start with( I am sure JM remembers!)

(I am saying this only to you SJ so no one else hears.......I got some furniture with gore-tex in at the falconry fair.....looks good, doesn't feel nice though) :) :) :) :). Yup I know what you mean, Fraid I am a bit of a hypocrit here as I am much the same , really into natural products my self, wood, pottery, leather ,metal etc, but when it comes to my hawks, they will have the very best that I can produce/ purchase for them, ie what I consider is best & if they arte man made producst that I feel is best, then so be it
regards
SJ

[Gaz]

As for maintainence (and this is purely personal) I love the process and time spent adding Koa Cho Line etc. I like the fact that it is natural and that along with other materials (wood and clay for example, not in falconry, just in everyday usage) humans have been using them forever.
:finga:

IF IT AINT BROKE,WHY FIX IT :?: :!:

[Tim Laycock]

I use leather because its traditional, simple as that.
I constantly experiment with other things but always come back to leather

IF IT AINT BROKE,WHY FIX IT
:supz:
I have tried and failed :oops:

[ColdZero]

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[Mary Quite Contrary]

I am very opened minded on these things, a typical example would be

The leather leash. At the time falconers started to use different materials for leashes there must have been some purists saying "if Aint broke why fix it" yet now leather leashes are rarely used.

So i like to give things a chance before disregarding them. :D

Thats why i ended up with my wife.

Never marry a ugly woman :!:

[Tim Laycock]

So i like to give things a chance before disregarding them.

Thats why i ended up with my wife.

Never marry a ugly woman

Indeed :mrgreen:

[Wightwings]

So i like to give things a chance before disregarding them.

Thats why i ended up with my wife.

Never marry a ugly woman

Indeed :mrgreen:

DAMN...........HE HE :wink:

[Hawkmaster]

This year I will try webbing for jesses and Aylmerii.

[North East Harris Hawker]

i saw an article in the falconers mag some time back about a bloke who used some sort of plastic straps (made from the cutters on a flymo) as flying jess...
now apparently its light, does not bend as much under its own movement (reducing branch "whipround" and consequent snagging) they are bright (aiding finding your bird) and a lot stronger than leather..

matey liked it, but
is it a lot less bovver than a hover :?

[Tim Laycock]

i saw an article in the falconers mag some time back about a bloke who used some sort of plastic straps (made from the cutters on a flymo) as flying jess

They are just the job for spars, as are medium cable ties through almeri in place of button jesses.
This year I will be trying slivers of thick leather, knotted at one end and soaked in uni-bond, in place of slitless button jesses.
I love to experiment :D

[North East Harris Hawker]

falconers hate cable ties, but lets say you threaded one through the eyelet of your aylmeri and zipped it back on itself as tight as it goes.
what on earth could the bird do to injure itself?
it would make the perfect fixed flying jess...
one thing is for sure, the aylmeri would never come off even if the eyelet broken
your thoughts please

[Renton]

I would have thought that cable ties would be too rigid to make good flying jesses. The advantage of leather for hawk furniture is that if the bird bites or pulls at anklets or jesses it will do itself no harm.

[North East Harris Hawker]

aha but what im saying is, all you want is a degree of control in the field (holding for slips) hence flying jess, wouldnt cable ties do this?
they are lighter and stronger than leather...
theres an old saying in falconry when it comes to furniture etc, "if it can go wrong it will go wrong"
how could a bird injure itself on such a fitting? i cant think of any..
i have heard about birds that unpick aylmeri flying jess and eat them (then die) but if these jess are permanently fixed this is out of the question :roll:

[Ben C]

By rights then don't worry about cable ties, just use stiff mono. A 8 inch length of Amnesia would do the trick. Its a black mono used for fishing, supple, smooth and stiff ( n chance of catching).

The question is does the minimal difference in weight matter to the hawk? Do we need to change for the hawk, or we changing because our brains are bigger then a monkey's???

[North East Harris Hawker]

mmm fair one
"Amnesia" never heard of this one before, last time i heard it meant something entirely different! :roll:

[Tim Laycock]

I dont like the idea of using Amnesia ben, I think it would be a bit too thin M8

[Ben C]

Absolutely BB, as I said there are a multitude of different man made stuffs we could use. But are we trying them for the benefit of the hawk, or just because we have discovered them? (a huge monkey brain)

However Amnesia would work, if you had a subtle touch on the glove. Or if in fact if you didn't use a glove at all ( back to Mr Ali) but I would not try it, not worth the risk.

Benny

[Mikey]

I really like that idea! But with the leather jess it hangs free,aiding you when bird comes to fist and you need to grab hold,And flows behind the bird as it flies.You'd have to leave the cable tie a little loose so it did the same.I still dont think you'd beat leather for most things

[Goldie]

I had a mate try the cable ties a couple of years ago, they were about 8" long and the problem he found with them, was they were very slippery and if the bird bated it was off !. Never used anything other than leather myself as i find it suits my needs

[Bullet_Jesses]

8) GENTS! Welcome to the 21st century.I haven't used leather jesses in years and with great results. I even use plastic coated flying jesses(when I have to) They have no slits and will not allow the bird to get hung up.I'm contemplating using a reinforced plastic for the anklets anyone have any ideas? Leather has served it's purpose over the years ! Now it's time to be retired! cheers jim.c

[Morb]

Has anyone checked out Marshall's website, under the Utah sky trials? there is a kestral with a molded plastic hood. It looks good.

Ron

[Ben C]

Bullet......interesting, and in theory you are right. However the bottom line is that leather is a beautiful material to work with. Man made stuff doesn't cut the mustard. And the difference in weight isn't an important factor.

Leather has been my fantasy for years lads. :) :) :) :) :) and I ain't gonna give it the slip that easily.

[ColdZero]

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[Bullet_Jesses]

8) Nice one Coldzero! Ok i've got a confession to make ! I still make (special order mind you) leather bullet jesses.Its true BenC! If you really want to dress up your bird to show it off, a great leather hood and matching leather Bullet Jesses looks the dogz.The attached pic is of a black leather pair(kangaroo of coarse) of bullet jesses. cheers Jim.C

[Ben C]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm leather!!!!!!!!:)

Lovely looking things Bullet...........where from and how much mate?

[Wightwings]

now them i like the look of............. whats the internal structure and what strength ae they.....very nice i cant see any tangle forming there.

ooh and as for the thread im a leather man all the way.....

[Gaz]

Shut up DANISH,your having a bubble bath mate..that wasnt leather you brought down here :butthead: :mrgreen:

[Bullet_Jesses]

8) The leather ones aren't cheap, though for you guys the pound is very strong against the dollar. They run about $39/pair with the leather leash they are $59 plus shipping. They have a non-toxic/rot proof core(polyester i believe)and are about 165lbs of test(more than enough, unless you fly an elephant)They are available in light or dark kangaroo leather.You would need to specify the bird and size of grommet you use.
cheers Jim.C

[Wightwings]

Shut up DANISH,your having a bubble bath mate..that wasnt leather you brought down here :butthead: :mrgreen:

Gaz........once again your getting a little confused :rolleyes: that stuff you made your gimp mask out of is plastic dude....... :finga: :finga:

[Hawkmaster]

Well OK as I said on the 28th of May I was going to try some Aylmerii from webbing and here are the results on my new falcon.

[ColdZero]

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[Hawkmaster]

OK here is another with my experimental bullet jesses.

[Hawkmaster]

Come on guys! Critics out there give it HELL . . . . if not I will? :lol:

[OutFlying]

Show a picture half way through the season, lets see how the falcons legs like them first :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

OK I can answer that one now. . .

I can see wear of a whitish like skin so it is probably worse on the leg than leather.

Bare with me here. . .

Good one Jim keep them coming. lol:

[OutFlying]

Paul,
The only way to judge any equipment is time in the field, plenty of flash kit out there but also plenty of flash looking **** :wink: Leather anklets hardly cutting edge falconry kit but they do the job as good as anything - I'm all for progress but not change for changes sake.
Jim.

[Hawkmaster]

True but I though I would give it a go anyway, and my conclusion after a short period?





:twisted: THIS IS WHY WE STILL USE LEATHER! :twisted:

[OutFlying]

Good man

[Tim Laycock]

pmsl HM
Good reason indeed M8 :mrgreen:

[OutFlying]

BB,
Check out any "specialist publication" leather is the best :wink:
OF

[Hawkmaster]

Too easy to have a new bird hook a tooth in those little gaps and be OFF!

AND BELEIVE ME THERE IS NO WAY I WANT TO LOOSE OLD ROCK STEADY BEFORE I HAVE FLOWN HIM.

[Tim Laycock]

OF
Im a PVC aficionado myself :lol: pmsl

Bb

[Hawkmaster]

I liked the look of it BUT the leather is MUCH better!

[ColdZero]

so after trying 1 other material it is shrugged off? what about the material seat belets are made of etc? i would like to see a falcon break through that.

[Hawkmaster]

That is what it was. Bought from the same manufacturers.

[OutFlying]

How are you going to stop it fraying once cut ? If you apply heat it will have a hard edge - just nice for some leg scale damage.

Is it so bad to use quality leather correctly greased for one season on a hawk ? Lets have improvement and change - not change for changes sake.............................................. ................................

[ColdZero]

...

[OutFlying]

why do you want it harder wearing ? the main aim is to provide a secure method of attaching equipment to a birds legs without the risk of damage to the leg scales or producing sores - it wants to be soft and strong and last 6 months. Leather does this - leather might not be a suitable material in the desert with the temperature and sand but it works mighty fine here.

OF.

[Ben C]

And it feeeeeeeellllllls ssooooooo goooooooddddd on a girls skin. :) :)

[Tim Laycock]

how do you know what it feels like on girls skin???? :shock: :lol:

[Ben C]

I know because I.....................erm, well, I erm.............shut up!

[Tim Laycock]

:lol: :mrgreen:

[ArthurMol]

Well i know not everyone uses leather, but why is it still used anyway? Even though kangaroo leather is strong and light etc, surely man made material is better, and would last longer. So why is it still used for jesses, and i am sure there are more comfortable versions of leather anklets.
I use kangaroo leather because i have always assumed its the best thing to use and never considered an alternative.

Really good question that I ask myself almost every day. Leather wears out once in a while and almost always at times that one would not expect. We have the knowledge as humans to fabrique special nylon stuff and other material that would probably last longer. But I haven't seen any material yet that could do the job safely, e.g. for bracelets.

Tradition is fine, but we do not live in the middle ages anymore and it would be more than nice to see our current (human) knowledge of materials of materials to be expanded to newer and more efficient equipment to be used with our birds that will last a longer period of time compared to the average leather.

With kind rgds

Arthur Mol

[OutFlying]

Arthur,
How long does it take the leather anklets to wear out ?
Jim.

[Goldie]

Arthur,
How long does it take the leather anklets to wear out ?
Jim.

very good point Jim, i have NEVER seen leather anklets wear out.I have seen then come off due to the hole for the grommet being made too big, but that was down to poor workmanship on the falconers part.
If good leather is used,cut correctly and treated before attaching to the bird it would last many seasons. However why anyone would want it to last more than one season is beyond me. New equipment should be fitted at the start of every season. Pure lazyness if its not.
I must confess to not using leather jesses tho as I prefer the braided ones I make myself.

With regard to the way the Arabs use their anklets as mentioned earlier,
although the material they use isn't as long lasting as leather it must be remembered that these falconers are with their birds 24/7 and sleep in the same tent therefore would be aware immediately of any wear and tear on the equipment.

Jim

[ColdZero]

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[OutFlying]

Arthur,
How long does it take the leather anklets to wear out ?
Jim.

very good point Jim, i have NEVER seen leather anklets wear out.I have seen then come off due to the hole for the grommet being made too big, but that was down to poor workmanship on the falconers part.
If good leather is used,cut correctly and treated before attaching to the bird it would last many seasons. However why anyone would want it to last more than one season is beyond me. New equipment should be fitted at the start of every season. Pure lazyness if its not.
I must confess to not using leather jesses tho as I prefer the braided ones I make myself.

With regard to the way the Arabs use their anklets as mentioned earlier,
although the material they use isn't as long lasting as leather it must be remembered that these falconers are with their birds 24/7 and sleep in the same tent therefore would be aware immediately of any wear and tear on the equipment.

Jim

Goldie,
That's the same results with leather anklets that I've experienced myself, never failed during the season and could last many seasons - but I renew every season.
OF.

[Wightwings]

i must be some old fashioned pudding but i can honestly see no reason to replace leather with anything else. i use cable ties on the tail mounts last season :oops: i admit to that but ALL my other furniture is made from good old animal skin.......never had a prob :roll:

[Ben C]

Appropriate cable ties on the tail for me too. ******s slipped round and pushed the feathers around mid season though. :)