My first goshawks!!!!

[Jastreb]

When I start to handel with falconry with 14yo, my first love was goshawks!
I tried with passasge, haggards and finaly imprints :D - I love imprints a lot! BDW I also flew CB, HHs, RTs, Peregrin-but finaly I came back to my first love-GOSHAWKS!
These to gosses (female and male) are hatched 11 days ago from my imprint female.
I took them today out and start with imprintations-my friend took female and I leave myself a male!
I am VERY HAPPY! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[BrianM]

oooooooooooooooooo nice

[Jastreb]

Here is my tiercel gos! :D

[Dude]

nice jastreb :)

[Fenman46]

very very nice :mrgreen:

[ColdZero]

can you give a bit of information about the imprnting process, i don' know anything about it. Do you just need to stay witht the hawk 24 hours a day feeding it? It looks like a lot of fun, and very time consuming.

[Darren]

Here is some info i have gathered about imprinting from a mate
ALL FALCONS VOCALIZE IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS SCREAMING IN IMPRINTS IS OFTEN LINKED TO RECOGNITION OF THE FALCONER & NOT NECESSARILY FOOD RELATED,FOOD SHOULD BE PLENTIFULL & HOODING WITHOUT BRACING SHOULD BE CARRIED OUT FROM 3 TO 4 WEEKS CONSTANT CONPANIONSHIP & SOCIALIZING WILL GREATLY REDUCE SCREAMING.IMPRINTS INVOLVE LOTS OF TIME BUT THE END RESULTS ARE GREAT .

DEVELOPMENT & TRAINING IMPRINTED FALCON PLAN.
0-2 weeks develops bonding,socialization,trust,eating food from dish.
3-4 weeks learns hood,feeds from lure,introduced to dog,car etc & being approached.
5-6 weeks looks for lure,interacts with people,attach jesses & block train.
7-9 weeks meals scheduled fed of lure,short flights,blocked out.
10-12 weeks longer flights learns its area falcon may be hacked.
12 kite training,wait on & gain condition

from 2 weeks old will eat four to 6 meals a day from around 6.00 am to 10.oo pm 4 to 6 weeks goes down to three ,6 to 10 weeks are 2 meals a day after this stage a single meal should always have much to eat this will help prevent screaming & mantling you will no when a meal can be dropped through falcons appetite change.feed in diffrent places.

[Ben C]

Jastreb..........they are the best things in the world..........WELL DONE, you look like a very happy father, well done.

[OutFlying]

Here is some info i have gathered about imprinting from a mate
ALL FALCONS VOCALIZE IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS SCREAMING IN IMPRINTS IS OFTEN LINKED TO RECOGNITION OF THE FALCONER & NOT NECESSARILY FOOD RELATED,FOOD SHOULD BE PLENTIFULL & HOODING WITHOUT BRACING SHOULD BE CARRIED OUT FROM 3 TO 4 WEEKS CONSTANT CONPANIONSHIP & SOCIALIZING WILL GREATLY REDUCE SCREAMING.IMPRINTS INVOLVE LOTS OF TIME BUT THE END RESULTS ARE GREAT .

DEVELOPMENT & TRAINING IMPRINTED FALCON PLAN.
0-2 weeks develops bonding,socialization,trust,eating food from dish.
3-4 weeks learns hood,feeds from lure,introduced to dog,car etc & being approached.
5-6 weeks looks for lure,interacts with people,attach jesses & block train.
7-9 weeks meals scheduled fed of lure,short flights,blocked out.
10-12 weeks longer flights learns its area falcon may be hacked.
12 kite training,wait on & gain condition

from 2 weeks old will eat four to 6 meals a day from around 6.00 am to 10.oo pm 4 to 6 weeks goes down to three ,6 to 10 weeks are 2 meals a day after this stage a single meal should always have much to eat this will help prevent screaming & mantling you will no when a meal can be dropped through falcons appetite change.feed in diffrent places.

not applicable for a gos.

[Hawkmaster]

Have FUN you lucky ******! :lol:

[OutFlying]

Jastreb,
Why the preference for imprint gosses over passage gosses ? Are you still able to trap a passage hawk ?
OF.

[M & J Raptors]

Jastreb

Tell us more about breeding with imprints, do you have a donor yourself, also how old is the mother, ?

cheers


BC

[Jastreb]

No, we are not able to take passage gosses legaly. I had chance before, and now from time to time to train, or better to say, put back in condition some passage birds before we again return them in the wilde - that's because I am part of Croatian Raptor Rescue Team.
But, there's always but, I never had so good havking with passage gos like with imprint.
Offcours passage birds are realy good hunting bird, but you always must keep your attention on their weight. I lost two passage birds just because they were littel over flying weight. And in that case I really enjoy with my imprint-sometimes I fly her near houses, cars, crowdy places and she don't care about that!
That's only my opinion, from my expirience!
Cheers Viktor :D

[Jastreb]

And CZ, with imprinting proces I like to use littel bit of McDermott's Recepies, Dave Jones "Imprint goshawks", try to ask all the faconers you know what they did, be lots with your hawk and try to give him plenty of time and good food!
In that case you will probably do good job, but you will also make some mistakes-THAT'S FALCONRY!

[M & J Raptors]

No, we are not able to take passage gosses legaly. I had chance before, and now from time to time to train, or better to say, put back in condition some passage birds before we again return them in the wilde - that's because I am part of Croatian Raptor Rescue Team.
But, there's always but, I never had so good havking with passage gos like with imprint.
Offcours passage birds are realy good hunting bird, but you always must keep your attention on their weight. I lost two passage birds just because they were littel over flying weight. And in that case I really enjoy with my imprint-sometimes I fly her near houses, cars, crowdy places and she don't care about that!
That's only my opinion, from my expirience!
Cheers Viktor :D

You are doing everything wrong with your passage Gosses, Derry, [aka Jack Merlin] will put you right my Friend, he is on the list give him a shout and ask him how to train passage birds,
you could try, we have :?
but dont wait up.

[Jastreb]

BC I flew 7 passage birds, 2 escaped, and other 5 I have been releas (also 4 hagards, 1 escaped)!
Maybe I did something wrong, but who knows everything!
And I said that passages are good, but I have much more fun with imprint!

[M & J Raptors]

BC I flew 7 passage birds, 2 escaped, and other 5 I have been releas (also 4 hagards, 1 escaped)!
Maybe I did something wrong, but who knows everything!
And I said that passages are good, but I have much more fun with imprint!

OK Jastreb, thank you for your comments,

[Tim Laycock]

Your a very lucky chap Jastreb, Im very jealous :mrgreen: :D

[OutFlying]

BC I flew 7 passage birds, 2 escaped, and other 5 I have been releas (also 4 hagards, 1 escaped)!
Maybe I did something wrong, but who knows everything!
And I said that passages are good, but I have much more fun with imprint!

OK Jastreb, thank you for your comments,

Surely not :wink: more fun......................................

[Jack Merlin]

You are doing everything wrong with your passage Gosses,

So, enlighten us.

Mick, your comments contribute nothing to the greater understanding of falconry. Where is he going wrong? We would all like to know how you would do it -- from your extensive experience of just two passage hawks.

[Jack Merlin]

Darren wrote:Here is some info i have gathered about imprinting from a mate
ALL FALCONS VOCALIZE IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS SCREAMING IN IMPRINTS IS OFTEN LINKED TO RECOGNITION OF THE FALCONER & NOT NECESSARILY FOOD RELATED,FOOD SHOULD BE PLENTIFULL & HOODING WITHOUT BRACING SHOULD BE CARRIED OUT FROM 3 TO 4 WEEKS CONSTANT CONPANIONSHIP & SOCIALIZING WILL GREATLY REDUCE SCREAMING.IMPRINTS INVOLVE LOTS OF TIME BUT THE END RESULTS ARE GREAT .

DEVELOPMENT & TRAINING IMPRINTED FALCON PLAN.
0-2 weeks develops bonding,socialization,trust,eating food from dish.
3-4 weeks learns hood,feeds from lure,introduced to dog,car etc & being approached.
5-6 weeks looks for lure,interacts with people,attach jesses & block train.
7-9 weeks meals scheduled fed of lure,short flights,blocked out.
10-12 weeks longer flights learns its area falcon may be hacked.
12 kite training,wait on & gain condition

from 2 weeks old will eat four to 6 meals a day from around 6.00 am to 10.oo pm 4 to 6 weeks goes down to three ,6 to 10 weeks are 2 meals a day after this stage a single meal should always have much to eat this will help prevent screaming & mantling you will no when a meal can be dropped through falcons appetite change.feed in diffrent places.

OutFlying replied:

[/quote] not applicable for a gos.[/quote]

So enlighten us. If you are the expert, where is he going wrong?

But before you do that, tell us of your experiences imprinting goshawks. How many have you imprinted and how successful have they been?

From your previous posts, I have to reach the conclusion that you have imprinted only one and that had to be sold back to the breeder, Mick Kane, because it went nuts.

But maybe that problem was due to some inbreeding problem with the strain and not due to your method of imprinting? Mick has already explained that his stock come from a very small gene pool. Geneticists know that that can lead to mental problems.

We need you to explain, please, so we can all be as wise as you.

[M & J Raptors]

You are doing everything wrong with your passage Gosses,

So, enlighten us.

Mick, your comments contribute nothing to the greater understanding of falconry. Where is he going wrong? We would all like to know how you would do it -- from your extensive experience of just two passage hawks.

Derry, it was a **** take comment, surley you seen that, i would never fly another passage, how did you find your passage hawks ?
please tell me and jastreb how we went wrong with our passage hawks,

[M & J Raptors]

Darren wrote:Here is some info i have gathered about imprinting from a mate
ALL FALCONS VOCALIZE IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS SCREAMING IN IMPRINTS IS OFTEN LINKED TO RECOGNITION OF THE FALCONER & NOT NECESSARILY FOOD RELATED,FOOD SHOULD BE PLENTIFULL & HOODING WITHOUT BRACING SHOULD BE CARRIED OUT FROM 3 TO 4 WEEKS CONSTANT CONPANIONSHIP & SOCIALIZING WILL GREATLY REDUCE SCREAMING.IMPRINTS INVOLVE LOTS OF TIME BUT THE END RESULTS ARE GREAT .

DEVELOPMENT & TRAINING IMPRINTED FALCON PLAN.
0-2 weeks develops bonding,socialization,trust,eating food from dish.
3-4 weeks learns hood,feeds from lure,introduced to dog,car etc & being approached.
5-6 weeks looks for lure,interacts with people,attach jesses & block train.
7-9 weeks meals scheduled fed of lure,short flights,blocked out.
10-12 weeks longer flights learns its area falcon may be hacked.
12 kite training,wait on & gain condition

from 2 weeks old will eat four to 6 meals a day from around 6.00 am to 10.oo pm 4 to 6 weeks goes down to three ,6 to 10 weeks are 2 meals a day after this stage a single meal should always have much to eat this will help prevent screaming & mantling you will no when a meal can be dropped through falcons appetite change.feed in diffrent places.

OutFlying replied:

not applicable for a gos.[/quote]

So enlighten us. If you are the expert, where is he going wrong?

But before you do that, tell us of your experiences imprinting goshawks. How many have you imprinted and how successful have they been?

From your previous posts, I have to reach the conclusion that you have imprinted only one and that had to be sold back to the breeder, Mick Kane, because it went nuts.

But maybe that problem was due to some inbreeding problem with the strain and not due to your method of imprinting? Mick has already explained that his stock come from a very small gene pool. Geneticists know that that can lead to mental problems.

We need you to explain, please, so we can all be as wise as you.[/quote]

No inbreeding here my Little friend, all can be traced back to Finland, unlike your birds, :?

that's why they are all sold for this season :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

all can be traced back to Finland,

Checked the DNA have they? As an old Irish friend used to say, "Ink takes to paper readily enough". I suppose rings can be exchanged. Or is that impossible -- even between friends?

But I see you have changed your tune as a while back I seem to recall you telling us all your goshawks were descended from a very small number of original imports.

If it is not bad breeding that is causing these problems (and I've heard of several cases now), where does this crazy syndrome come from?

Can't be OutFlying's bad handling because from his post above he knows all about imprinting goshawks.

Enlighten us, oh please, please!! It is not often we have the chance to question and learn from a real expert.

[OutFlying]

Darren wrote:Here is some info i have gathered about imprinting from a mate
ALL FALCONS VOCALIZE IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS SCREAMING IN IMPRINTS IS OFTEN LINKED TO RECOGNITION OF THE FALCONER & NOT NECESSARILY FOOD RELATED,FOOD SHOULD BE PLENTIFULL & HOODING WITHOUT BRACING SHOULD BE CARRIED OUT FROM 3 TO 4 WEEKS CONSTANT CONPANIONSHIP & SOCIALIZING WILL GREATLY REDUCE SCREAMING.IMPRINTS INVOLVE LOTS OF TIME BUT THE END RESULTS ARE GREAT .

DEVELOPMENT & TRAINING IMPRINTED FALCON PLAN.
0-2 weeks develops bonding,socialization,trust,eating food from dish.
3-4 weeks learns hood,feeds from lure,introduced to dog,car etc & being approached.
5-6 weeks looks for lure,interacts with people,attach jesses & block train.
7-9 weeks meals scheduled fed of lure,short flights,blocked out.
10-12 weeks longer flights learns its area falcon may be hacked.
12 kite training,wait on & gain condition

from 2 weeks old will eat four to 6 meals a day from around 6.00 am to 10.oo pm 4 to 6 weeks goes down to three ,6 to 10 weeks are 2 meals a day after this stage a single meal should always have much to eat this will help prevent screaming & mantling you will no when a meal can be dropped through falcons appetite change.feed in diffrent places.

OutFlying replied:

not applicable for a gos.[/quote]

So enlighten us. If you are the expert, where is he going wrong?

But before you do that, tell us of your experiences imprinting goshawks. How many have you imprinted and how successful have they been?

From your previous posts, I have to reach the conclusion that you have imprinted only one and that had to be sold back to the breeder, Mick Kane, because it went nuts.

But maybe that problem was due to some inbreeding problem with the strain and not due to your method of imprinting? Mick has already explained that his stock come from a very small gene pool. Geneticists know that that can lead to mental problems.

We need you to explain, please, so we can all be as wise as you.[/quote]




Jack the reasons are below.
The time plan is for a falcon, much longer timescale than a goshawk. If you what straight answers just ask a straight question no need to throw insults again. I am able to have a debate and not go off track - still waiting for your explaination regarding the problems of captive breed goshawks in 1612.


If you want to know the outcome of the imprint gos, join the BFC with some of your profits from the book - and read the article.

[M & J Raptors]

Derry

The last Finnish birds to be exported was over 20 years ago, so even you can understand that all breeders in the UK we have a limited gene pool,
most came from the Falconers who imported the Gosses in,
these names have carried on and we know used these name to represent different bloodlines,
Gilbert, Stotton, Hollinsead, to name a few, so not many of the original stock still breeding, so we are breeding from generations down the line.

My own breeding stock was carefully chosen from names above and been selected on size and hunting backgrounds.
so yes we need some new blood from Finland but try has we may, DEFRA will not let us bring passage birds in to breed, which is a shame has they cull 1000s of Goshawks each year,

I cannot comment on the problems OF experienced with his Gos, when i seen it fly on a couple of occasions it was a good example of what an imprint should be, ready to fly from the box, with a Field full of Falconers and dogs and spectators, imprints can be very difficult at times and it takes at least 3 seasons to get the best of any bird.

OF male is with a Friend who will fly this bird next year, and i will be honored to arrange a field meet anywhere in the UK so you can bring your male and lets compare the 2 imprints, one social and one duel,

now lets hear some of your answers on your book :shock:

[Jack Merlin]

now lets hear some of your answers on your book

No problem! But first you will have to read it. Can't have a conversation with myself, now, can I?

You keep referring to "Bert's method". What method is that exactly? Could you describe it so we have a basis for a discussion?

I am not sure how much you know about breeding, but genes are inherited from both parents. They get mixed at each generation and only a few get lost. Nothing to do with "blood" which never mixes, hence the need for care when getting a blood transfusion, even between mother and child.

Some things will get fixed in a strain, like the colour black-and-tan in Gordon setters although these setters were at one time tri-coloured. The multi-coloured genes have been selected out by breeders.

Sometimes it is faults which get fixed. These faults can be physical, like the under-shot jaw in bull dogs. Or they can be a temperament problem, like aggressive biting associated with some strains of show cocker spaniels.

So, if the Finn gosses currently being bred are from a very small gene pool imported 20 years ago, that gene pool is even smaller today (because genes get lost) even though the population is numerically greater.

I realize that this concept will be a bit difficult for you to understand if you have never been to vet college and still talk in terms of "blood". These problems are even more difficult to select against because they are often not apparent until later -- often too late. It is well known that the results of crosses are usually more stable, hence "hybrid vigour".

As a matter of interest, I have a female goshawk here which is reputed to be a pure Finnish. I really don't care much either way as she will be crossed but she is very pale, has similar markings to the Finns, and flies at 2lb 10oz. I got her for breeding and because she was local. Not many goshawk breeders this far north. But she does exhibit neurotic symptoms.

It seems to me from the number of reports I am getting that there is a problem in these birds. Personally, I wouldn't want to fly a huge bird anyway. Why drag around a 3lb monster when a 2lb hawk will do the same job and show more sport doing it? "Small female, big males" has been good advice for hundreds of years.

Still waiting for a definition of "Bert's method".

[M & J Raptors]

Derry

She either Finnish or not, she cannot be one or the other, tell me who bred her and i will tell you if shes Finnish, i think i know a Little more about Goshawk breeding that you my Friend,

Yes i still stumped about Berts method myself :?:
you take quotes from his and your book but you have never backed them up,
you say that Passage birds are Superior to eyasses but never back them up,

we have asked you more that once, what this miracle method of Berts his, but only get politicians answer,
maybe you could get into politics, a candidate for the Monster Raving Loony Party :lol:

Bloodlines is a quote that all breeders of Goshawks use in the UK, so maybe again we are all wrong and you are right. :roll:

[Darren]

Here is some info i have gathered about imprinting from a mate
ALL FALCONS VOCALIZE IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS SCREAMING IN IMPRINTS IS OFTEN LINKED TO RECOGNITION OF THE FALCONER & NOT NECESSARILY FOOD RELATED,FOOD SHOULD BE PLENTIFULL & HOODING WITHOUT BRACING SHOULD BE CARRIED OUT FROM 3 TO 4 WEEKS CONSTANT CONPANIONSHIP & SOCIALIZING WILL GREATLY REDUCE SCREAMING.IMPRINTS INVOLVE LOTS OF TIME BUT THE END RESULTS ARE GREAT .

DEVELOPMENT & TRAINING IMPRINTED FALCON PLAN.
0-2 weeks develops bonding,socialization,trust,eating food from dish.
3-4 weeks learns hood,feeds from lure,introduced to dog,car etc & being approached.
5-6 weeks looks for lure,interacts with people,attach jesses & block train.
7-9 weeks meals scheduled fed of lure,short flights,blocked out.
10-12 weeks longer flights learns its area falcon may be hacked.
12 kite training,wait on & gain condition

from 2 weeks old will eat four to 6 meals a day from around 6.00 am to 10.oo pm 4 to 6 weeks goes down to three ,6 to 10 weeks are 2 meals a day after this stage a single meal should always have much to eat this will help prevent screaming & mantling you will no when a meal can be dropped through falcons appetite change.feed in diffrent places.

Yes the above info that I have gathered is for imprinting a Falcon but surely you can get some hints & advice from it

[Hawkmaster]

Guys the PM's the mods are now getting about your personally little chats is getting to everyone now on the forum.

So either please open a new thread called LET SORT IT OUT or something along those lines or please stop hijacking and making an effort to undermine each other on everyone elses threads.

We are finding it interesting as there is loads of knowledge here, but it is obviously getting too much as the PMs are on par now with the sick saker and mod vote things.