Motivation without a tight weight?

[Ben C]

I have heard it said, and it has been written; A hawk will fly at a higher weight than is necessary, but you need to get it motivated and you need to know what a motivated hawk looks like.

Well what does one look like? And what should we do to promote motivation without cutting the weight down?

Other than heading off into the desert with a pair of binoculars and a bottle of water (which I am off to do next easter) how can I tell what a hawk wants?

[North East Harris Hawker]

hawks become motivated with experience, if you are out hunting everyday the bird comes into a form of its own. it knows the routine so there is no need to keep it at sucha low weight. over a period of time you can allow the birds weight to creep up then, when one day the bird refuses to participate in hunting, you know you have gone too far. bring it back down an ounce and you have a motivated hawk at a higher weight. Harrises will kill just to help you out (as they see you as part of their group)

[Ben C]

NEHH,

yes true, they do become motivated with experience, and yes I am out everyday and catching on most days. However your comments are still tucked ino messing with weight. AN OUNCE!!! Jeepers man, 20 grammes is enough to stop me hunting for a day. Yes I can catch either side of 680/ 700 grammes but it is not good. I want killer, hard core commitment.

Apart from which I would love to continue to learn how to hunt without the weigh scales. I would love to be able to 'read' my hawk before and after a days hunting. Head bobbing, tail waggles, preening, sqwarks, craws and other such stuff. Deeper and more complex meaning if you will.

ben

[Falconry Equipment International]

Otherwise known as condition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ben C]

SJ, can you elaborate??

[Falconry Equipment International]

SJ, can you elaborate??Without sounding demeaning thsi is not something for someone wothout svereal seasons experience at the very least, should veen consider. I have flown 2 gosses & a Peregrinefor nealy 2 seasons withou a true idea of weight, ie without weighing them, however by carefully analising how large a crop they take , amount of energy exerted in the flight,, quality of food & weather conditions to name a few....... if you read a few old texts ( even more important read between the lines you will understand what I am trying to say. sorry to say this was also probably what I was trying to get across on Gaz's thread the other day

[Dave Whitt]

Ben you say 1oz will stop you flying ! have so more confidance, as the bird gets more experianced and you get more confident in the bird you will get to know what mood the bird is in when you pick her up, I had a femal harris when I was 16 after about 3 years of flying her I only used the scales when I first picked her up from moult, she used to start the season at about 1lb 15oz by the end she would be about 2lb 6oz if she did not respond well just cut her food on that day, if she seem to keen give her a bit more.

[Ben C]

Demeaming? NO! ...........................Interesting YES!.

I wouldn't consider flying without weighing, I tried it for 2 weeks and came unstuck. But it was worth it, not least for understanding the fear.

What I want is a true understanding of how my hawk behaves.....including the stuff it does, regardless of its need for food.

I can cope with dropping its weight, but what does a hawk do when its LOVES being with me?

[Dave Whitt]

ho wdid you come unstuck ?

[Ben C]

It bloody well flew off!!! killed, and I found him, snug as a bug, cropped up and smart..............I had not got the ****er right.

He seemed in control but wasn't. Mis judged it mate.

[North East Harris Hawker]

i always weigh my bird, but like your man said, you can tell even if the bird is overweight slightly if she is still going to perform, mine flies onto the scales and then i go to the other side of the garage and open her box. If she flies straight into it i know she is on form!
she does have 6 seasons under her belt though :wink:

[Ben C]

Fellas,

I should explain,

An ounce will obviously not stop me hunting, but there is a massive change in how he hunts. Its funny but the ****** is slow to respond, and as for confidence JB I have that in him hugely. Just not in me mate :) :)

I could go out and KILL with him up to a wide range of weights, but that still does not answer my question. Or for that matter how I can identify different behavioural ticks.

I want to take this hawk up on to a hill, cast him off and let the wind shove him about. I want to know how he is turned on, how he displays this and what I can do to keep it this way.

[ColdZero]

this will sound stupid coming from someone with such a tiny experience as me, but i think you just learn to read a bird through spenidng time with it, not something you can describe well. With my hawk i would spend 20-30 mins sitting with her everyday before hunting and just watching her and feeling her keel bone i found was a MUCH more accurate scale of how she will perform than just scales. This is just my opinion, of course i still weighed her but found due to her mood even at prime weight she wouldn't peform like she would when 'in the mood' as much as 2oz over.

through my pitiful experience :lol:

[Ben C]

HEHH,

'Cody' jumps from the perch to the glove, onto the scales and into the car whatever the weight. Harris's are far too smart fot their own good. This is not an indication of how willing they are to fly?

[Ben C]

[quote="JackoBean", I first picked her up from moult, she used to start the season at about 1lb 15oz by the end she would be about 2lb 6oz if she did not respond well just cut her food on that day, if she seem to keen give her a bit more.[/quote]

Good, but what were her behavioural dips and peaks? How did she act, imagine if you could not weigh her, how would you have known how she felt mate? :D :D :D

[Varmint]

Firstly Ben, I do believe from reading your threads that you pay great attention to both what you have read and to your bird,

It is hard if you havent had a bird before to actually learn facial expressions and body talk, because you simply havent enough experience of their company?
I maintain that no one can fully understand a bird until they have socially imprinted one, seeing the birds true nature and behaviour ina captive environment.

HH's are withouta doubt a difficult bird when it comes to weight as they have so many agenda's always running? Is there available quarry? no , oh well a tit bit of the big fellers fist will just have to do... Look at me i am an instantly responding trained HH.

Strange dog appears, Two magpies start to mob, Tractor starts up in the distance... i am no longer trained!

Manning is something which we look at as a short term goal to get our birds steady and tame, but in reality manning continues thru out your birds life. Flying every day not only keeps your bird fit it also expands the manning and experiences it encounters.

In truth Manning never ends, and a bird happy and confident in it's environment simply has to weigh up whether it is happier returning to your fist for food or selecting a potential victim?

The nervouse or bird which needs to overcome a fear of a situation would obviously have to have it's weight cut to compensate for it's insecurities.

Remove the insecurities, build on the confidence.

Certainly in your first season, like educating any young creature a routine and acceptable behaviour pattern has to be established, a routine which can then be built upon, gradually replacing a need to keep your bird conditioned against fear thru appetite.

Single kills, from which a young hawk can totally satisfy it's appetite are great confidence builders and stepping stones on which to build.

Educate your young bird with common sense, and dont be surprized if your bird isnt giving 100% on it's 23rd slip of the day!

Avoid negativity in your birds life thru careful introduction to everything each day and use the hood for the purpose it was designed, to deprive your bird the view of something which you know will scare it.

I watch loads of newbies every year just dragging their bateing cahrges around where ever they go, blindly obliviouse to their birds fears and insecurities, "crash Manning" as i call it does work to a point, but a bird trained like this can only ever be given confidence thru appetite?

[Ben C]

Right, got it. So other than what I am already doing, just keep doing it and watch closely. Stick to a routine and keep steady. And perhaps go and look at a friends imprints. The key to the world is always straight forward and complex at the same time Eh? :) :) :)

I think I am also very lucky varmint. Both Lucy and I are of the same opinion, we have a particularly brave and intelligent harris. On the SECOND day of manning he was on the fist and a builders van pulled up the drive, he looked up and then carried on eating, totally oblivious.

Its as if he is very smart or very thick. Situations which should scare him don't and ones that shouldn't do. He bated 2 times at shadows and branches which over hung us as we walked around before the creance work. But took not the slightest care at motobikes. He obviously hates dogs but lands on the top of cars. Can't stand horses but loves his own reflection.

What I am after is the ability to pick him up in the morning, check him and then go hunting in the knowledge that he is chosen to fly with me rather than use the weight as 'a fail safe mechanisim'. It is difficult to explain fellas, but I am sure you all know what I mean!!

Jackobean I am more than impressed with that weight change, that is one motivated harris. Give you new arrival a pat on the head from me and Lucy. :) :) :)