HUGE goshawks???

[Jack Merlin]

I have posted a question on here from time to time about these huge goshawks some people rave about. Briefly, what is the point?

One clever fellow stated that we need big female goshawks to breed big males. Not a very logical answer but the only one I've seen!

I am intending to write some magazine articles about this subject and I thought I could probably get some good input from this forum.

I can think of a parallel with coursing dogs, because one "authority" assures me that the goshawk is a sprinter. I thought the flight at a partridge was a long flight, but maybe this guy only flies released poults and never wild partridges?

So, if I want to catch hares on the Lincolnshire fens with a lurcher, I will choose a biggish dog with staying power. But I certainly don't want an Irish wolfhound or a Great Dane! There is a limit. So why huge goshawks?

If I am rabbitting with a few terriers and lurchers around whin bushes, then my choice would be a smaller Bedlington lurcher, not a bloody great 26 inch hare courser!

The reason is that the smaller dog can accelerate faster and corner tighter. So, again, where does that leave huge goshawks?

If a breeder goes for normal average sized goshawks, say 2lb to 2lb 4oz for females, what is it the huge 3lb Finn will do better? Wouldn't I be a bit stupid to carry an extra 1lb around all day for less sport? And those small males, wouldn't they be ideal for hawking corvids?

I would seriously be interested in your comments and if anyone offers some particularly clever or interesting reasons, I would be glad to quote them in print.

Last, I already have Mick Kane's views on this subject so he need not trouble himself by adding to them.

[Tim Laycock]

I Personaly have never flown these large Goshawks you speak of Jack.
The largest Goshawk I have had the pleasure of flying was a Finnish/German cross and tipped the scales to 2Lbs 3 oz, she was unfit and I was afforded no time with her for fitness training however she was fine at rabbits.

The best goshawk I have ever used was a german male belonging to my Hawking tutor.
The bird was at its peak of fitness and scaled all of 1Lb 2 1/4 oz.
What he lacked in size he more than made up for in tenacity, He was bought as you say Jack, With Corvids in mind although he never realy took to feather.
What he loved was rabbits, He would travel any distance for a rabbit slip and was inclined to royle after missing one. It was because of this tendancy that he was eventualy lost and susequently shot- on a pheasnt shoot wich was Ironic because he would not have looked at them-
except in disgust :( :roll:

[Jastreb]

I am glad that you open this post!
As I already told and put up pics, I have young male and female gos. I took male for myself.
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4256&start=0
My first gos, when I was 15, was male haggard gos. He was very responsiv, and after 15 days I flew him free. That was one of the moust excitement bird I ever had!
So, what do you think about male german gosses?

[Tim Laycock]

So, what do you think about male german gosses?
The one I flew was very fast thats for sure!
Flying him at rabbits was like what I would imagine flying a reasonably sized female at hares would be like.
The ones that he managed to hold did not go quietly or easily and he had to be imped regularly as his attempts at rabbits were a bit rough and tumble to say the least!

[Jack Merlin]

The best goshawk I have ever used was a german male belonging to my Hawking tutor.
The bird was at its peak of fitness and scaled all of 1Lb 2 1/4 oz.
What he lacked in size he more than made up for in tenacity, He was bought as you say Jack, With Corvids in mind although he never realy took to feather.

Wow! That is incredible! What did those rabbits weigh? I weighed a few around here and the average weight was 3lb 8oz. Now that seems so heavy I shall really have to check! That is over three times the weight of your gos. But I am told that 2lb Germans will take a brown hare. 8lbs? That is even more of a contest!

Yes, Jastreb, I have a great regard for those hotter European gosses. There is a lot said about the "calm" nature of the Finns, but would anyone seriously enter a cart horse in a horse race because it is bigger and calmer? No. We want fire and determination, not size, for real falconers!

[Jastreb]

Yeep mate, wise words! :supz: :D
Can't wait to start hunt with my Tommy Boy-his name is Tom :mrgreen: !

[Bill]

I have tried and failed to get an answer to what is almost the same question. How will a large finish male compare to a small German female. Finish males have to be flown very keen to tackle crows and a female german would carry a little more weight and power. Or do they differ in more thatn just pysical size that allows the male more manouverability?

[ColdZero]

i would love to know the answer to this too. Maybe bigger gos' are better for hare, so if you are only going for hare i see the logic. But for the fast exciting flights wouldn't a smaller bird nearer 2lbs be better?

what is the limit? if you want the biggest gos then get a hodgsons hawk eagle for gods sake.

[Jack Merlin]

If you have any experience of hard physical work (I don't know you and I am not meaning to be facetious here!<g>), it always seems to be the little guys who can keep working the longest, fastest, and hardest.

There is also acceleration and turning circle to consider. The small dog is better for rabbits because they can get up to speed quickly (inertia, not such a weight to move from stationary, so greater acceleration) and then turn tighter. But they are not usually faster over a distance. I believe that is pretty much the same for hawks.

On a straight flight, the big bird has to be faster to stay in the air. I read it up once and it is to do with aspect ratios and stuff. It also applies to aircraft design. The bigger the plane, the faster it must travel to stay in the air. But when hawking, do we really want a slogging match?

A male gos after a rabbit is quite something. A big female just sits on the poor brute and that is the end of it. I would say that a 2lb German female ought to be more than a match for a rabbit, and very sporting on a hare, so why fly anything bigger?

Having said that, I am as guilty as the next guy as I bought a female that flies at 2lb 10oz back in Febuary. But one consideration was that it was gettable -- £24 cheap day return to Newcastle by train to meet the seller. Not many female goshawks in the north of Scotland! And then there is the possibility of brown hares and greylags<g>. For pheasants, I have the male. He is the ideal size at 1lb 10oz but since he has learnt to catch them by the head, I think he could be smaller and still as effective.

I feel sure that training has a lot to do with it. I believe in careful entering so the hawk is convinced it cannot fail. Having said that, there was nothing I could do to convince my last passage spar that it would be a good idea to fly rooks. She obviously had tried them and learnt the hard way!

[Finnish]

MOVED THREAD TO THE CORRECT PLACE :!:

[Gaz]

The reason you go for a Finnish seems to be lost...in the posts of time :!:
It aint the size of a birds belly...its the size of its b###s :finga:
Wich you influence in its training by instilling CONFIDENCE :!:
Why a Finnish...TEMPRAMENT..... :shock:

[Jastreb]

Well, who is finaly more more temperamental, finnish or germans :?: :idea: :?:

[Jack Merlin]

And how do you define temperament?

I wouldn't want to enter a cart horse in the Derby even though it is bigger and has a more placid temperament than a Thoroughbred.

Some of us enjoy the challenge of fire and spirit.

[M & J Raptors]

I have posted a question on here from time to time about these huge goshawks some people rave about. Briefly, what is the point?

One clever fellow stated that we need big female goshawks to breed big males. Not a very logical answer but the only one I've seen!

I am intending to write some magazine articles about this subject and I thought I could probably get some good input from this forum.

I can think of a parallel with coursing dogs, because one "authority" assures me that the goshawk is a sprinter. I thought the flight at a partridge was a long flight, but maybe this guy only flies released poults and never wild partridges?

So, if I want to catch hares on the Lincolnshire fens with a lurcher, I will choose a biggish dog with staying power. But I certainly don't want an Irish wolfhound or a Great Dane! There is a limit. So why huge goshawks?

If I am rabbitting with a few terriers and lurchers around whin bushes, then my choice would be a smaller Bedlington lurcher, not a bloody great 26 inch hare courser!

The reason is that the smaller dog can accelerate faster and corner tighter. So, again, where does that leave huge goshawks?

If a breeder goes for normal average sized goshawks, say 2lb to 2lb 4oz for females, what is it the huge 3lb Finn will do better? Wouldn't I be a bit stupid to carry an extra 1lb around all day for less sport? And those small males, wouldn't they be ideal for hawking corvids?

I would seriously be interested in your comments and if anyone offers some particularly clever or interesting reasons, I would be glad to quote them in print.

Last, I already have Mick Kane's views on this subject so he need not trouble himself by adding to them.



If you come to the Field meet i will organize, i will show you, after all that's were it happens, not here, :roll:

and no i have not made comment on this before, so i will not bother now, i like to fly home bred Goshawks, something you will never experience, so if they happen to be 3lb that's down to breeding Finnish Goshawks, :shock:

[Natch]

been flying large finnnish females for the last eigth years, nothing finer.than seeing her take brown hares with not much difficulty also i have seen mick cane fly on several occasions seeing is believing so get your assaes down to the field meet and you will believe it
cheers cookie

[Jack Merlin]

A good 2lb German could do that. Why the extra pound?

[M & J Raptors]

been flying large finnnish females for the last eigth years, nothing finer.than seeing her take brown hares with not much difficulty also i have seen mick cane fly on several occasions seeing is believing so get your assaes down to the field meet and you will believe it
cheers cookie

Cheers cookie, but the question is has anybody seen old Derry fly a Gos :?:

[Tim Laycock]

Some of us enjoy the challenge of fire and spirit.

This puts it in a nutshell for me.
This fire is or should be the elemental core of a Goshawk and for me the making of a good one should be a conquest, the more difficult the journey the more you will savour your arival.

Personsly if I wanted something that was steady, laid back and affable I would take up a Harris Hawk.

This is only what I praise in a Goshawk, I realise that this is not everyones view and do not expect all to embrace these qualitys, Many do not and thats fine with me :D

[M & J Raptors]

Some of us enjoy the challenge of fire and spirit.

This puts it in a nutshell for me.
This fire is or should be the elemental core of a Goshawk and for me the making of a good one should be a conquest, the more difficult the journey the more you will savour your arival.

Personsly if I wanted something that was steady, laid back and affable I would take up a Harris Hawk.

This is only what I praise in a Goshawk, I realise that this is not everyones view and do not expect all to embrace these qualitys, Many do not and thats fine with me :D

Tim

All the goshawks i have flown have fire and spirit, Large Fins and small Hungarian birds, just because the Fins have much calmer nature does not mean they lack the courage of the Gos.

Thats is my own personal experience. so just my opinion.

What difference did you find in flying Large Fins and small German Goshawks ?

cheers


Mick

[Wightwings]

Im getting a male Fin shortley and to be truthfull done care really what his weight is. This is my first eyass Gos and i have no intention getting boged down with the old " how big is it " argument. My main aim is to do the BIRD justice. With this in mind I will be looking to try and get myself invited to any field meets you guys may be organising this season :wink: dont know ANY seriuos Gos Hawkers down here at the moment to would value the experience

Sorry digressed there........back on thread

[Gaz]

just because the Fins have much calmer nature does not mean they lack the courage of the Gos.
Thats what i was saying regarding temprament Blackbird,its still a Gos :finga: no fears on that dude :!: :supz:

[OutFlying]

Im getting a male Fin shortley and to be truthfull done care really what his weight is. This is my first eyass Gos and i have no intention getting boged down with the old " how big is it " argument. My main aim is to do the BIRD justice. With this in mind I will be looking to try and get myself invited to any field meets you guys may be organising this season :wink: dont know ANY seriuos Gos Hawkers down here at the moment to would value the experience

Sorry digressed there........back on thread

Huge goshawks - how big is too big, how big is over kill. From a pure flying point of view a male Finnish goshawk will take all gamebirds, corvids and rabbits with ease. So a female at 2-4 is over kill. BUT where would all the large males come from if there wasn't the large females. If breeding from pure German stock - the females would be around 2lbs - 2-2lbs and the males at around 1-5lbs or 1-6 lbs (all weights parent reared and approx). Anything bigger than these will most likely have some finnish blood in them.

If a breeder breeds Finnish stock or even Finnish crosses both the male and female will have the quarry base covered and both would be viable prospects for anybody. (Hares excluded).

If a breeder only bred from smaller German gosses the market and options for the small males would be a very niche market.

[glow=red:48226ca48e]Once a gos leaves the fist, manners and attitude on the glove are forgotten and only the performance now matters. [/glow:48226ca48e]
It is in this department the Finnish gos comes into there own on game birds, the flights are a direct match of stamina, speed and power. Not many pheasants or partridges twist and turn in flight and the level of success or lack of it depends on the gosses speed and endurance and not its turning ability. Ducks being much the same.

If flying corvids your gos needs to be as maneuverable as possible, but going too small will result in damage to the hawk if your not quick enough to the kill.

If flying rabbits then a female Finnish goshawk is overkill, a smaller female or larger male will take them easily and in better style.

But if flying game birds the larger finnish females are at no disadvantage and seem to have the extra power and stamina on the out of sight flights.

Just my observations from over 1000's slips and seeing most variations of gos flown. Yes smaller versions of gos can still catch game birds but not with the same panache. :shock:

Yours Jim E. (outflying)

[Wightwings]

Once a gos leaves the fist, manners and attitude on the glove are forgotten and only the performance now matters.
:supz: :supz:

[OutFlying]

I might use that line in my book...................................... :rolleyes:
Glad you liked it.

Jim.

[Falcon]

it sums up the gos though so well! :lol:

[M & J Raptors]

Im getting a male Fin shortley and to be truthfull done care really what his weight is. This is my first eyass Gos and i have no intention getting boged down with the old " how big is it " argument. My main aim is to do the BIRD justice. With this in mind I will be looking to try and get myself invited to any field meets you guys may be organising this season :wink: dont know ANY seriuos Gos Hawkers down here at the moment to would value the experience

Sorry digressed there........back on thread

Huge goshawks - how big is too big, how big is over kill. From a pure flying point of view a male Finnish goshawk will take all gamebirds, corvids and rabbits with ease. So a female at 2-4 is over kill. BUT where would all the large males come from if there wasn't the large females. If breeding from pure German stock - the females would be around 2lbs - 2-2lbs and the males at around 1-5lbs or 1-6 lbs (all weights parent reared and approx). Anything bigger than these will most likely have some finnish blood in them.

If a breeder breeds Finnish stock or even Finnish crosses both the male and female will have the quarry base covered and both would be viable prospects for anybody. (Hares excluded).

If a breeder only bred from smaller German gosses the market and options for the small males would be a very niche market.

[glow=red:27eec3c2a0]Once a gos leaves the fist, manners and attitude on the glove are forgotten and only the performance now matters. [/glow:27eec3c2a0]
It is in this department the Finnish gos comes into there own on game birds, the flights are a direct match of stamina, speed and power. Not many pheasants or partridges twist and turn in flight and the level of success or lack of it depends on the gosses speed and endurance and not its turning ability. Ducks being much the same.

If flying corvids your gos needs to be as maneuverable as possible, but going too small will result in damage to the hawk if your not quick enough to the kill.

If flying rabbits then a female Finnish goshawk is overkill, a smaller female or larger male will take them easily and in better style.

But if flying game birds the larger finnish females are at no disadvantage and seem to have the extra power and stamina on the out of sight flights.

Just my observations from over 1000's slips and seeing most variations of gos flown. Yes smaller versions of gos can still catch game birds but not with the same panache. :shock:

Yours Jim E. (outflying)

Nice post Jim,

Well said, i would agree with all of it, no doubt others will not :twisted: but thats what this forum is all about ?


cheers


Mick

[OutFlying]

8)

[OutFlying]

A good 2lb German could do that. Why the extra pound?

I've posted my reason for thinking this extra pound is valid above, even though it isn't really a pound (16 oz).

Most parent reared finnish females are around 2-9 to 2-13 ish (maybe a few above this, not many), imprints will usually weigh more but will still have the same physical size i.e feet, wings etc. So your looking at 7 to 11 oz difference.

Temperament is not only about behavior on the fist but influences everything about the conditioning of the goshawk. Why waste energy whilst on the glove ? The whole point of flying a gos is the quality of the pursuit not how it behaves, either like a parrot or nutter on the fist. Finnish birds do not need to be cut as fine as german gosses and this no matter what methods or books are used to have been found to be the case with the vast majority of goshawk flyers.

All the best OF. (Jim)

[Bill]

I may have missed it but ! have not seen a post that states anything like
"I have flown a good number of german and finish goshawks and the comparisons are ......."

Has anyone got this experience?

[Tim Laycock]

Mick

I must admit that the only real difference between the German and the Ger/Fin I have flown was that the German male required a good deal of carriage before flying to achieve any degree of obidience in the field.
The Ger/Fin did not require the same level of effort.
The Ger/Fin did not appear to have much Fin in her either, but her father was definatly of finnish decent.

Tim

[SakerYZF]

I heard one guy give me a reason and it was this; If a 2lb gos can come to terms with a hare , a 3lb gos should do it quicker ,im not sure exactly what he meant but im guessing it was along the lines that the chance of injury is lessened because to two are more "evenly" matched? Im sure experience plays alot in it though, but there’s a small point in there, and female German gos comes to terms with a rabbit more quickly than a male... Im a making sense or ranting on :P?

[Pete Sibson]

I always thought european gosses were nearly always more nervous in comparison with finnish birds.
I`ve always wanted the steadier accipiters to fly and have noticed many of the finnish being very good on pheasant and most other quarry but on the other hand you can get some good european gosses that can do just as good.

The only reason i and a lot of people i know fly finnish is for the steadier hawk and i somtimes think they can be better over longer flights on game....

[Jastreb]

Welcome Pete!
Are you flying male or female goss?
Cheers Jastreb

[Pete Sibson]

Hi, both sexes this season, i have 2 adult 2 juvenile females and 5 males that all need some kind flying.

Pete.

[M & J Raptors]

[quote="Pete Sibson"]Hi, both sexes this season, i have 2 adult 2 juvenile females and 5 males that all need some kind flying.

Pete.[/quote


Hi Pete

looks like your in for a busy season, :shock: better let pridey give you a hand or 2,

cheers

Mick