Social imprint harris hawk!!!

[ShaunRoach]

I Have just collect a 3 week old harris hawk from my friend i am going to bring it up as a social imprint,i have heared many stories about them e.g. they will be a non stop screaming little ba*tard, It will never hunt any thing in its life. I am going to prove them wrong. please let me know if you know of any one else with one

[Finnish]

MOVED THREAD TO CORRECT PLACE :!:

[Goldie]

MOVED THREAD TO CORRECT PLACE :!:

What place would that be :lol: :lol:

[Kevin Massey]

sean what made you decide on a social imprinted harris?

kev

[ColdZero]

...

[Shaun Byrne]

Hand reared a male 3 years ago.

[Varmint]

Your gonna love it mate and it will prob the be the best bird you have owned flying at silly high weights with bags of quarry agression and a great attitude towards life!

Yep there is gonna be some noisy times in the beginning, but they will pass, have fun!

[Fenman46]

Its the noise that puts me off doing anything like that,but it sounds like fun,,

[IAmTheWeasel]

Problems I have heard of from folks here in the states that tried it is that they become territorial and will attack others(humans) One guy had his bird fly off a 1/2 mile and nail a young girl off a bicycle. The bird was put too sleep.

[Shaun Byrne]

Make sure the bird is handled by everyone and anyone, kids are great at imprinting, they never get bored.

Just be ready for the noise! I was religious in my training and NEVER let the bird see me with food and he turned out to scream like a banshee, day and night. Had to move him on as I lived in a built up area at the time.

He was noisy for about 6 months then went totally silent. He is a demon hunter and I heard he tried to nail a Heron a few months back.

[Varmint]

Well i have flown several Weasel, and the only bird that has ever attacked anyone (and im talking these birds flying with litteraly 10's of thousands of people) was a 26 week parent reared bird, starved into an aggresive state?

There are social imprints and there are social imprints?

In fact, my best social imprint, currently hatches two clutches of young a year and is completly happy for any human to join her and her slightly less laid back mate when feeding her young (not that i do that often because of the Physcological effects on the young)

There is too much **** written by those who really havent experienced enough with Imprinted Harris Hawks?

Lets examine why a socially imprinted bird should attack a human?

Maybe it's because it has bonded sexually with it's human partner?

If that is the case, why dont we find lots and lots of dead HH at the nest sites of others? if they bond and feel a need to defend their terratory against an intruder, why do they allow other HH's in their families to attend the nest and even assist in the rearing of their young?

The simple fact of the matter is that HH are far smarter than we imagine and whilst certain traits are undoubtedly instinct, most are prompted by ignorance on the part of the Austringer managing them.

[Ben C]

From the papers I have read, the beta hawks that help with the securing of food are also NOT related. Yet they are allowed to about 50 metres of the nest sight to 'drop' off any prey.

[IAmTheWeasel]

Well, Let's look at the Harris's natural behavior a bit. They nest in groups, they hunt in groups and they also defend there territory and their family members. If the bird is imprinted, then it obviously beleives that it is included with you in the hunting "family" and will defend you and your territory as it would against intruder harris's in the wild. Only now the bird see's other humans as the intruder. The idea of imprinting Harris's has all but stopped in the US to my knowledge and one of the first people to try this method in the States when Harris's just came on the scene lives literally down the street from me. He did it once and the concequences where far from good. Two of the three birds have been put down out of that group and 1 is kept indoors at a local falconers house due to injuries sustained in the field. The two that where put down had severe aggression issues towards other individuals.

[Wightwings]

forgive my ignorance..... :roll: ...but why the f*** would you want or need to imprint a HH?? a more naturally social bird you couldnt ask for and although one or two may turn out Ok ( eventually ) they invariably turn out agressive and noisy. What benefit do you get from it?

Sorry but my humble opinion guys........advise........DONT

[Shaun Byrne]

forgive my ignorance..... :roll: ...but why the f*** would you want or need to imprint a HH?? a more naturally social bird you couldnt ask for and although one or two may turn out Ok ( eventually ) they invariably turn out agressive and noisy. What benefit do you get from it?

Sorry but my humble opinion guys........advise........DONT

I agree completely WW. The one I reared was one of 3 rejected by a first time mother, the other 2 were killed.

I wouldn't do it again but would consider dual or creche reared.

Unless you live miles from anywhere (like Varmint :D ) or need very tame birds for use with the public (like Varmint :D ) I would personally go for PR every time.

[North East Harris Hawker]

sorry but im another one who cant see why it would be neccesary to imprint a harris (unless of course you are taking all your hen birds eggs through greed :x )
a parent reared bird that has never been robbed and that has been entered quickly after a short training period is an absolute joy to handle. lots of kills and plenty of manning results in a bird that is bomb proof.
the bird has manners because it knows it is different to us and it respects the difference. my girl has just ended her 6th season, she has never footed anyone or shown bad manners, she is tame and she plays the game in the field (at a respectable weight) now,
oh and she is quiet (most of the time)
she has also bred in captivity by being left to her own devices and reared the 4 youngsters
someone tell me how you can better that? cos im afraid i just cant see it.

[Ben C]

Yep but you try taking a Parent Reared bird up on a mountain and getting it to slope soar at 300 plus feet in the wind/rain and sleet.

Perhaps you need a little bit more of a bond methinks.

I would also hazard a guess that the violence weasel talks about is more to do with bad imprinting, or not enough imprinting in the right way.....however I have no experience in this area and could therefore be totally wrong. :) :) :)

[North East Harris Hawker]

Yep but you try taking a Parent Reared bird up on a mountain and getting it to slope soar at 300 plus feet in the wind/rain and sleet.

:)
my bird does go up on the soar, but who goes out hunting in rain and sleet? even the birds know that they are onto a loser in these conditions

[Ben C]

No but it always starts doesn't it when your out I mean. How high does your PR go then NEHH just out of interest? :)

[North East Harris Hawker]

it depends on the conditions, but generally not as high as my brothers male :evil: :x
hehehe if i take her into north yorks to a nearby beauty spot (on a hill)she will go up a 100metres but if i take her to the white horse (westbury wilts) and there is good wind she will go up over 150

[Ben C]

NEHH you have PM

[Ben C]

Thinking about it a bit more........I cannot see how a parent reared hawk would have the connection with the owner other than through food. And food in bad conditions is not nearly strong enough bond is it? No I would want more than that between me and my hawk. I suppose you would have to look at how the best falcons are reared and why? Their job is similar to a buteo soaring is it not?

Perhaps when you imprint a growing Harris, to stop it becoming 'aggressive' you need to expose it to more 'humans' in order for all of them to be acceptend in the Harris clan?

As I say just the thoughts of an interested party. :) :) :) :) Not an experienced falconer.

[IAmTheWeasel]

Understand the natural behavior of a BOP such as the Harris and it will show that they have a bad habit that can easily be switched to us if they see us as either parents or siblings. In the wild, they learn to attack the parents to get them to relenquish food for them. This will happen to a human if they are thought of as the "supplier" and one step further than that is the case that they will vigorously defend their food supply from other potential takers...ie. other people. I can depend on the individual harris's attitude as well, but these are things that can and have happened. I am certainly no expert on this subject and I an just parroting what I have heard from other falconers that have had some experience with this matter.....All I can say in the end is.....Why take the chance when they seem perfectly fit as game hawks when they are parent reared rather than imprinted?

[Ben C]

Me too weasel, not an expert at all.:)

But as I say, the imprinted or perhaps a creche reared bird must surely have a greater bond with the owner, can be flown at a very high weight, will display a wider range of natural behaviour and be steady flown on the side of a mountain top.

For these reasons alone its the difference between GOOD and BEST. Improvement and refinement of how and why I fly my hawk is enough for me to be interested at the very least!! :) :)

From what I can gather, is what you have described more akin to a food imprint?? In which case that is slightly different. The idea is to make sure that food is in no way associated with the human if it is to be 'properly' imprinted?

I am now on very shaky ground because I know nothing of the process, so perhaps someone might help us out with an explanation. :) :)

[IAmTheWeasel]

If Bird Dog would come on here I would ask him to be a gent and try to shed some light on this subject as he is an animal behavior expert and he does know the people directly involved with that faithful experiment on the imprint Harris's here. Also, I will ask on of the Guys that flew one of the imprints this weekend as I am headed there for a pool party on Saturday. I do know that this guy have a lawsuit against him because of that imprint harris when it latched to the face of a young girl.....

[Ben C]

Pool party................it's alright for some :) :) :)

[North East Harris Hawker]

the harris is gregarious by nature, the bond is there with manning and training alone, the parent reared ones are so tame you would think that they ARE imprinted even though they arent :shock:

[IAmTheWeasel]

Agreed, I know a local falconer that hasn't had any equipment on his bird for quite a few years now. He simply opens the mews door and his truck door and the bird fly's in. No jesses, no anklets, no bells and no telemetry. The bird just hangs out on the passenger seat and waits until it is let out to fly. He recently had the bird start catching small birds from the car and then flying back in with the quarry so he doesn't even have to get out of the truck! Now that's lazy hawking at it's finest! This bird is a parent reared Harris's hawk. I even know some folks that have similar results from Passage birds too.

[Ben C]

The only reason a parent reared bird stay put is because of food surely. Yes, no doubt there is SOME bond through repetition and association but it runs far deeper with a creche reared and probably with an imprint. Otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to utilise these different methods.

16 weeks without human contact as opposed to Cody being with 4 different species of hawk and falcon, and on public display at a very young age.

As you say Harris Hawks are gregarious by nature, but this aspect is accelerated or suppressed depending on the method of rearing surely????


The behaviour of ACTING like an imprint does not mean THEY are an imprint, merely VERY intelligent and cunning I guess. :) :) :) They know whos got the food, Lucy acts the same way. Soon as she has eaten she ******s off as well!!!! (vbg)

[North East Harris Hawker]

Agreed, I know a local falconer that hasn't had any equipment on his bird for quite a few years now. He simply opens the mews door and his truck door and the bird fly's in. No jesses, no anklets, no bells and no telemetry. The bird just hangs out on the passenger seat and waits until it is let out to fly. He recently had the bird start catching small birds from the car and then flying back in with the quarry so he doesn't even have to get out of the truck! Now that's lazy hawking at it's finest! This bird is a parent reared Harris's hawk. I even know some folks that have similar results from Passage birds too.
ha ha! superb post! now thats a proper falconry bird!
"He recently had the bird start catching small birds from the car and then flying back in with the quarry so he doesn't even have to get out of the truck! Now that's lazy hawking at it's finest! " this part in particular really gives you an idea of what is possible.
now here is the question, would you rather the bird did this an ounce heavier and drove you to insanity with noise, or just be gratefull with what you have?

[Ben C]

Martin Hollinshead's hawk carries prey to him, and Cody has dragged a fair few rabbits towards me. He has also 'found' his way back to the car on our walks back, ooh at least a mile on one occassion. Sitting on the top, bold as brass. :) :) :)

Any Harris can do 'tricks' but the key to it, and the questions I ask myself is how is my hawk going to act in MY choice of hunting. And which method of rearing will benefit ME in my quest to hunt consistently in fine style over the next 15 years. :)

A mans Hawk and the method of breeding is purely his own choice, and I am not question anyones choice. THATS A PERSONAL THING. I am merely following my own train of thought, asking questions and not finding any REAL answers. :)

Now it is fine to fly your hawk from window and all of that jazz, but I am sure that up on a mountain top, blasted in a strong howling wind, its gonna take more than a chunk of chick to hold MY hawk on spot.

And for the record 'Cody' does not send me insane with his noise :) :) :) Well not always anyway :) :) :)

[MickeyDredd]

Thinking about it a bit more........I cannot see how a parent reared hawk would have the connection with the owner other than through food.

The only reason a parent reared bird stay put is because of food surely.

Not so Ben. My male p/r harris flies back to the fist often whilst out hawking for no reward as do the birds of most of my mates and they are not flown at particularly sharp weight.

The bird knows if it sticks with you he will get food, will see game to hunt and has a perch to be carried about on! The intelligent nature of this species works these things out although I know that they are not all the same, but again it comes down to the how the bird has been trained, handled and hunted throughout its life, but mainly in its formative years.

MD

[Ben C]

Mickey,

Good, can you help me out then......why do different rearing methods promote different behaviour types in hawks then?

If a parent reared bird displays the same as a creche or an imprint, why do people chose to do it differently. I am sure that it must be down to how the hawk displays under VERY VERY pressing conditions. Again I could be way off the mark so forgive my ignorance. :) :)

[Sighthound]

I found this quite interesting especially the last bit.

http://home.comcast.net/~baywingdb/philosophy.htm

I am lucky enough (I think :D ) to have Varmint helping me out.
He has told me that he would not let a beginner such as myself start with one of his crèche-reared birds, he could perhaps explain his reasons better than I could, so it’s one of his parent reared birds for me.

All the best

[IAmTheWeasel]

OK.....What exactly is a Creche? Is this another word for Dual Imprint?

[IAmTheWeasel]

I found this quite interesting especially the last bit.

http://home.comcast.net/~baywingdb/philosophy.htm

I am lucky enough (I think :D ) to have Varmint helping me out.
He has told me that he would not let a beginner such as myself start with one of his crèche-reared birds, he could perhaps explain his reasons better than I could, so it’s one of his parent reared birds for me.

All the best
That site has a great explanation of why we should not imprint Harris's.
Toby is one of the most experienced breeders of Harris's in the US

[North East Harris Hawker]

creche reared birds are reared with their siblings and without parents
i think :?

[Goldie]

creche reared birds are reared with their siblings and without parents
i think :?

you are not far wrong. They would be hatched in an incubator and fed by you alongside their siblings or other youngsters from another pairing.
you would do this until they can feed for themselves at which time you would continue to interact with them. they would see you as part of the group but would still breed with their own kind. If done properly you can end up with a first class bird in every way but there is a fine line to avoid having one that screams if it believes you to be the food provider.
IMO not for the inexperinced.

[North East Harris Hawker]

i still recon a good parent reared bird is bomb proof in every aspect. tyis beyond me why anyone would want to try and improve on this :roll:

[Ben C]

I sat and thought this through last night.......its like how I approach teaching children. We have MANY kids with various complex learning difficulties at school, and so I have to use a different learning, teaching and assessing style to unlock there potential. A different psychological model if you will, specific to each child. :)

Now a breeding style will alter the speed and way in which a hawk reacts and acts to the handler at any given hunting situation. Looking back through my diary, my creche reared hawk, was picked up at the VERY LEAST at 12 weeks old (hatched in May no date given). And then picked up on the 18th July.

It was well brought up with barn owls, aplomado falcons, boobok owls and others all in the same pen but safely seperated. (Again from my diary) "Human FOOD contact was minimal as they fed themselves, but visitors were allowed to wander past with children, and stop and point, this means the eyas was presumably learning at a very young age". Cody was killing by 14 weeks and by 16th and 17th week had his first cock pheasant.

Now I HAVE NO DOUBT that a parent reared hawk is BOMB PROOF NEHH. (as I say choice of bird and methods of rearing is a personal choice). But you cannot deny that getting a hawk as INTELLIGENT as a harris up and running this young will BOOST its learning prowess, commitment and alll the other character traits I have yet to learn about.

This is why it is important to improve on a Parent reared bird. Apart from which seclusion, parent reared birds came about to produce a SILENT harris, which in all fairness is a BLOODY STUPID idea. It is a social animal, thats like asking a dolphin to "hush up a bit please!". :) :) :)

It stands to reason the more stimulus and experience given to a young hawk at a young age will improve its developement. So long as these experiences are positive................Just like the kids in my classroom really. :) :)

As for not allowing beginners near a creche reared hawk because of screaming..........well we sorted that out and got rid of our neighbours just in case. :) :) :) Anyway Cody is fine in terms of vocalisation; as I say it is perhaps a little bit in the morings after his casting, quiet a bit when off to hunt.........................................THEN SILENT AND DEADLY.

I hope I got this right.

[OutFlying]

BenC,
Why is your creche reared harris hawk up and running before anyone else's ? I flew a p/r male Harris picked him up at 12 weeks, flying free and entered within 18 days. Quiet hawk and caught plenty flown singularly or in a cast. You seem to making some rash comments without personnel experience to base them on, are you comparing 2 harris hawks that you've flown - one raised in either method ?

Any hawk will form a bond to the austringer if keep in good condition and served with plenty of quarry, a harris is a team player and soon realises it's best chances of success are organised with you or the dog. There may be benefits to a creche reared harris or social imprint but be sure there will also be disadvantages - there's no such thing as a free lunch............................................. ......

OF

[MickeyDredd]

Mickey,

Good, can you help me out then......why do different rearing methods promote different behaviour types in hawks then? .

Exposure to different situations and methods of being raised when a bird is at a young age will obviously produce different reactions and traits in a bird i.e. if you substitute a human for a parent bird it goes without saying you are not going to get the same characteristics in the youngsters.

If a parent reared bird displays the same as a creche or an imprint, why do people chose to do it differently.

Don't know mate :) Seriously though, with regard to HH some people believe that the creche or imprint suits their needs better as Varmint will tell you. He has infinitely more experience than you and me so it obviously works for him without any major pitfalls and the only experience I have of creche reared HH is with his birds of about 6 years ago, some of which were creches if I remember correctly. They were well-mannered birds which were happy to fly to anyone for food, and not particularly noisy.

A different psychological model if you will, specific to each child.

Same with birds - for me a large part of training and management of raptors involves psychology, you need to understand your bird and work with its thought processes.

Like you, I'm no expert so just my opinion :)

[Ben C]

OF......Of course they are rash statements, I am only following a train of thought, and none of what I am writing is meant to be a DEFINITIVE statement. In fact someone like yourself can help me out in fact. :)

My suggestions are based on what I have experienced and partly from what I have read. Can you tell me then why people choose to rear a hawk in different ways then :) :) If it all pans out the same and the results are the same, why rear them in a different manner? I think (another rash statement on my behalf) different rearing produces different types of behaviour towards the owner. (I COULD BE WRONG THOUGH :) :))

I am not saying one method is better then the other, but I cannot help but wonder why someone as good as Hollinshead doesn't use a parent reared bird and why Varmint praises imprints as well. They are not bad falconers are they???

To an extent OF, I am comparing five other parent reared birds to Cody. Quite frankly they were a lot less inspiring in the field, for three this was after several seasons. And the other two which were picked up in the same year were very poor. However this could be down to handling and manning mate :) :)

ben

[OutFlying]

Ben,
All hawks are different. You cannot make judgements on a hawks performance just on how it was reared. There is just to much going on after the falconer receives the hawk - the only way to tell if a certain method is the way ahead is to do it yourself, what works for one person might not work for someone.

Your basing your judgement on your harris because it flew better than the other 5 hawks you saw flying, but if someone turned up with a better flying hawk would this then make yours a poor hawk ?

OF

[Ben C]

I see what you are saying and this at last is making sense. No it wouldn't make my hawk poor, so I can now see what you mean.

However different rearing methods MUST have an influence on the way a hawk reacts and therefore how it eventually turns out. Otherwise there wouldn't be different methods of rearing them would there?

If we had a level playing field: 3 different Harris Hawks, 3 equally skillful falconers which one would be the best for mountain top, slope soaring in hurricane conditions??

[OutFlying]

Rearing methods would be a factor but not to an extent of conditioning (no matter how raised) - if there was definite "my way" is best method everyone would be doing it but there isn't just one way to achive first class results.

[Ben C]

Ok, thanks for that, what you say is sound reasoning. :)

Still doesn't make sense that Varmint imprints his, hollinshead flies creche reared hawks, and everyone else rates parent reared. However my scope of reference is small, so if anyone out there uses a parent reared for prolonged slope soaring please let me know. :) :) :) I need a few pointers folks.

Ben

[OutFlying]

Ben,
I can guarantee you that their will be people in the world flying harrishawks to a standard well above the people you mention, but you will never hear of them and they will also be doing something different so who's right and who's wrong - NOBODY as I said everyone has there own methods. If it works for you then all's well.
OF.

[North East Harris Hawker]

you will also find that the best soaring birds will be parent reared ones (that are wild) :D
the reason people go for social imprints is to overcome "skitttiness" in the more sensative species (namely the accipiters) if the bird is brought up knowing you from a young age it will have no fear of you, provided there is no food connection the bird should be a joy to handle, however there is a noise and breeding issue.
IMO there is no need to go down this road with harris hawks as they are no where near as wild and skitty as the true accipiters. quite the reverse in fact.

[Ben C]

Still love to speak to them, they could be mine full of help and bloody interesting mate.

Also I would never just stick with 'my' method as knowing me I would repeat mistakes. I would far rather question and grow than stay static mate. :) :)

[North East Harris Hawker]

ben give me a quick run down on your experience with BOP

[OutFlying]

Why have you seen these better harris's ?

[North East Harris Hawker]

ive only seen pr hand rearesd and creche reared HH's the best in my opinion were the PR type

[Ben C]

Ben,
I can guarantee you that their will be people in the world flying harrishawks to a standard well above the people you mention OF.

OF...........these are the ones I would like to meet, I mean this not in a disbelieving way, but as in it would be nice to speak to them and learn from them mate. :) :)

NEHH; I have posted before that I am a newbie mate.....well reasonably new. :) :) Any stuff I post is more like pub banter and not a DEFINATIVE answer, I just like thinking and asking questions.

[IAmTheWeasel]

Got a good conversation going with this thread :wink: :lol:

[Ben C]

Yes, yes and yes again wease :) :) :) I enjoying it too the full, very informative.

[Coedhirion]

Interesting thread,... I have a 2005 male that was sold as PR in daylight seclusion, he did start to get noisy and at one stage even yelled in the box travelling in the car, which was a bit mind bending. I never reduced his weight too far, as I seemed to hit on the best quite quick. The point is tho, he acts like an imprint. He is in the moult chamber now, fed thro hatch, yet when I go in to change his bath he will come and sit beside me quite happy. If he has food he doesn't move away, in fact often brings it over. Tho when he was at flying weight he was prone to mantle.
The interesting thing for me, is that he does have a strong homing instinct.
I thought he did, but when he got lost on a kill and the transmitter failed, he was found 10 miles as the hawk flies from where lost, and only 3 miles from home, and in a dead straight line !!! He is a real good hunter and loves to go up on the soar on our windy Welsh hills too. So how WAS he reared, I realy would like to know!!!

[North East Harris Hawker]

sounds like a social to me

[Ben C]

Coe:
Did you see the breeding chamber? How old was it when you picked it up? How much food did you give it during your manning sessions? and how often do you fly him? Mantling happens with parent reared hawks as does flying home. There could be any number of reasons he behaves like he does. I must point out that my hawk is NOT AN IMPRINT and behaves like yours in certain respects. A chreche reared bird is very different than an imprint.

NEHH: If imprinting is used to avoid 'skittishness' (and that is probably true for gos's) why then does Varmint do it with his Harris's? I have a feeling its a little more complicated than that for Harris Hawks. :) :) But I could be very wrong!! :) :) :)

[Wightwings]

i assume Varmit does it for other reasons as he does run a busy centre with many many other birds and therefore any noise is acceptable so long as they are quiet enough in the field. I still reiterate my own opinion and its is based on experience of varying birds ( not all my own i ad) the HH is a social enough bird and unless there are specific reasons (loss of parents, illness etc etc) i see more disadvantages than rewards to imprinting them.

turned into a very good thread this one i have enjoyed reading the diff views. :D

[Ben C]

Heres another thought I've just had (surprise surprise :) :) ). If the method of rearing a hawk has no significant effect on how it turns out. How come different methods can be recognised by different traits in the older hawk. I.E screaming or silence etc.

[OutFlying]

The rearing of a hawk has a significant effect on the hawks behavior but without further input with regards to training, physical preparation and mental preparation it will amount to very little in the field. You need a complete package, yes you can sometimes tell by a hawks actions on a perch,glove or kill how it was raised but tell me how you would know how a hawk is raised by seeing it fly at the back of quarry alone.

OF.

[Ben C]

Thanks OF thats very enlightening. :) :) So the rearing does have a significant effect.

[OutFlying]

BenC,
Get a creche reared hawk or imprint or parent reared, train it poorly, fly it once a week over weight - will it be a world beater ????????????????

If you can identify a hawk's rearing whilst in flight behind quarry then you have a special gift :lol:

[Ben C]

Mate I am good (not), but ya got me beat on that one :) :) I would need a Yoda type brain....

[OutFlying]

may the hawk by with you, :wink:

[ShaunRoach]

hi guys sorry i took soo long to reply ive been busy getting ready for a show i am doing,,we are keeping the hh with some one at all times even if its with the dog,the way it will get fed is by moving it from one box to another with food already their,thanks for all the feedback

[Hawkmaster]

Ok what is the show, no good dropping little ones like that? :lol:

[Coedhirion]

BenC said Coe:
Did you see the breeding chamber? How old was it when you picked it up? How much food did you give it during your manning sessions? and how often do you fly him?
I saw the breeding chamber and he was trying for a second clutch !??
He was about 17 weeks when I collected him. I didnt reduce his weight from his collection weight of 1lb 10oz at all & fed all the usual to keep him at this weight during first few days of manning. While on the creance I dropped his weight slowly to 1lb 9.1/2 oz and this was the weight he flew at all winter. Weather permitting he was hunting 6 days a week & after entering on his 3rd day off creance got a kill most days, & later in season he had several times with 2 kills in a day, rabbit and pheasant.

[Ben C]

"He was trying for a second clutch?" Is this the breeder mate? If so what had he done with the first batch (the one your male is from). Had they been moved from the parents into another avairy? I take it is it definately a male?

This is very curious and interesting, but is a little beyond my knowledge mate. Perhaps someone could help us both out? :) :)

[Varmint]

Most breeders will go for a second clutch, but HH are very unco-operative with their re cycle times so it's not always possible to put the first hatched (Artificially incubated) clutch back with the parents, hence Creche rearing... Is that what you wanted to know ben?

[Ben C]

[quote="Varmint"] so it's not always possible to put the first hatched (Artificially incubated) clutch back with the parents, hence Creche rearing quote]

If this happened (and I am not saying it did Coey) then you have not had a PR hawk mate. Now I am merely speculating fella so do not take this a the sacred text of John The Baptist.

If they were moved they had to go somewhere didn't they? So the question is where did they go for an estimated time of 10 to 12 weeks???

[Ben C]

More importantly what did they go with and how were they fed? Who had access to them and what sort of socialisation did they get?

This is like a Miss marple quest.....help me out Coe.......it may be you got a mixture of different types of rearing, but as I say I COULD WELL BE WRONG MATE!! :) :)

[Ben C]

However this all comes back to the same point.....rearing HAS a significant effect on the behaviour of a Harris Hawk. So much so that an imprint or a creche reared hawk will have a different bond than a PR hawk.

And perhaps being a far more interesting hawk to fly, pushing the hawker to a different area of understanding and allowing slope soaring to be as easy as drinking beer (well maybe not) :) :) :)

[Coedhirion]

There were only 2 buildings, one daylight seclusion with parents and 3 eggs, one 8' x6' shed with glass removed and bars, 3 birds plus mine sitting on blocks or bows in garden. Expect if I posted a name some one would enlighten me, but I won't do that. It is interesting, but what I do have is def. an exceptional flier and hunter who is great natured, go in to the moult chamber an he comes to say hello !!! Show him quarry in the hunting season and watch and admire, he's wicked!!!

[Ben C]

Coe:
When you say sitting on blocks or bows does this mean you have no idea about how they were conditioned up until this point?

How were they housed until they were allowed to sit seperately on perches. Were they put together? Were they with other hawks etc etc

[Coedhirion]

Different breeds, different ages, including at least one falcon hybred. Birds he flies I was told.

[Ben C]

Sorry I am being very thick........Was your Harris with different breeds, different ages and a falcon hybrid on blocks? Or were they placed together in seperate units at a young age then seperated into pens? :) :) :)