Falconry License

[Moritz]

Hi guys,
what do you think about the Idea of some people to introduce a falconry license?

Moritz

p.s. could we perhapse make a pole for that one?

[OutFlying]

Bad idea

[Moritz]

I think so too, but why do you?

Moritz

[IAmTheWeasel]

Why do ya'll think it's a bad idea? Afraid you wouldn't pass? I think ya'll are saying that just out of spite because it's different. I think it would be a great asset to falconry in the UK to make people have a basic understanding level before plunging head first into falconry. There are already way too many morons out there with absolutely no clue about husbandry and technique for falconry. Most take a falconry course and then assume they are ready for a bird....WRONG!!! Make them have a reason to learn the needed information before the issues arise rather than as they happen. Anything like this, to me, is a step in the right direction.

[OutFlying]

Why would this qualification make people keep there hawks in better conditions ?

[Sean]

i think a license would be good, even if it meaned i would have to study for a few years to pass lol. it would probually help hawks be keep in better conditions because if the novices arent ready, they wont get a license? maybe also getting your mews inspected every so often too.

[Moritz]

We have got a license in germany and I know falconers that have got lots of experience etc. and their bitds are in a very bad shape. The license does not make you keep the bird in a good state. What Sean says sounds good, an anual inspection of the falconers garden etc. would be good. I think a license is not nessesary but a registration of the falconer would be great.

Moritz

[IAmTheWeasel]

Why would this qualification make people keep there hawks in better conditions ?You aren't seriously asking that question.... are you? It would be the same reason that ANYTHING that takes skill requires some level of knowledge and an exam....ie: driving test, medical test, vet tests, engineering test, rehabilitation tests, aviation tests etc, etc...Even a job interview is a test to see if your up to the job....Who is protecting the birds from some dip sh** moron who can't tell his arse from a hole in the ground? Nothing!!! If I had nothing to do with BOP, I could fly over there, buy a house and decide one day on a whim to go buy a golden eagle. Now, I as stated before, who is there to stop me and show me that it take more than just a whim to become a falconer? Do I have to learn after the eagle foots me in the face? Or after I mis trained it and it kills a small child?
Besides the fact that a test helps people study, learn and comprehend the subject of falconry, it protects them from making a big mistake by taking on something they can't handle and it also protects the welfare of the poor bird that gets stuck in a small cage in the garden when the ill- informed wanna-be falconer gets tired of it until it dies.
Why be so against a test when it can, in so many ways, help the sport and the birds by eliminating the half arsed and pet keepers?
Weasel

[OutFlying]

We have got a license in germany and I know falconers that have got lots of experience etc. and their bitds are in a very bad shape. The license does not make you keep the bird in a good state. What Sean says sounds good, an anual inspection of the falconers garden etc. would be good. I think a license is not nessesary but a registration of the falconer would be great.

Moritz

Exactly Moritz,
A qualification does not "make" anyone looked after their hawks, if you haven't the common sense or brains to be able to maintain clean quarters for a hawk to live you then you don't belong in falconry. There are already organisations i.e RSPCA that can enforce the current regulations on animal welfare.

OF.

[IAmTheWeasel]

You have completely missed the point.........It is to help the serious be more in check with what is needed and it DOES help to weed out some of the half hearted. Moritz, Just think of how many more people would be keeping birds in bad shape if the test was not in place?

[OutFlying]

How will it stop "pet keepers" ? they could pass the exam, then keep a few hawks in the garden. Animal welfare is already legislated with agencies with legal powers to enforce these regulations - passing a paper doesn't enforce anything.

OF.

[Sean]

theres also nothign stoping your average joe knowing nothing about falconry and buying 2 pairs of harrises and breeding em for money. probually wouldnt even know if the people buying the birds will do it justice

[OutFlying]

You have completely missed the point.........It is to help the serious be more in check with what is needed and it DOES help to weed out some of the half hearted. Moritz, Just think of how many more people would be keeping birds in bad shape if the test was not in place?

No I haven't miss your point, do you really think people who keep their birds in sh*t conditions don't realize that it is wrong - they don't give a toss. They could pass the exam and still keep the birds in the same conditions.

OF

[IAmTheWeasel]

Your still missing it........It decreases the likelyhood of this happening if they realize this is a serious sport that requires some level of dedication. The test questions should help them realize this when they begin to study for a test. Why do you think that there are so few pet keepers in the US? There is nothing saying that I can't trap a hawk and sit it in the yard without being flown. It's because we have a set of hurdles that must be passed such as the test. The vast majority of falconers we have here fly their birds on a regular basis because we all are serious about this sport to have to go through the process. I wish I kept count of how many people call me and ask how they can buy a bird. 95% pecent of these individuals never continue on with the process when they realise what is required of them. I'll bet they would of bought one if they had the chance though. Granted our laws are very strict on falconry, but even a small bit of studying could discourage the half hearted from continuing on with getting a pet bird of prey.

[OutFlying]

I'm not missing it, who will enforce these regulations over and above what are already in place.

[IAmTheWeasel]

That wasn't the question. It was do you think we need a test for falconry and I said Yes, I won't get into the issues that would be encountered from enforcement.

[SkyRider]

Jumping in here and I'm going to back Weasel 100%

I busted my a** to get licensed here. It's not easy at all. You learn so much just studying for your test. I know alot of people who have dropped out because of what we have to do. People who would have half-a**ed their way through and probably ended up killing one or more birds. The test, while not the easy thing to pass, proves dedication. If you're doing things right now, you won't have a problem passing. It will also keep other dumb people from trying to have a BOP. Weasel is right, and you can't get me to say different. There are only 7000+ falconers in the US. All of them earned that title, and all of them worked to get there too.

As for who will enforce those regulations... my guess would be the people who enforce the no hunting laws over there.

[Saker-Clive]

With regards to regular inspections of enclosures etc. if you're a club member, any club worth it's salt should and does do inspections; with the inspector giving recomendations on what should be done to improve conditionns if any, and a re-visit within an allotted time, 2 weeks usually. Our clubs inspector is also a centre owner.
I agree that some kind of test/legislation would be good overall, especially to stop the idiot parents buying an Eagle owl or Snowy owl because their kids saw one on a film in a un-appropriate 'bird-cage'. It would also stop some people getting their hands on birds and not taking the sport seriously.
I know of a person, that wanted a Saker as a first bird; he was refused by the breeder for obvious reasons but went ahead earlier this year and bought a 'second-hand' female HH. He had been feeding it on a road kill Roe deer for over a month...............................need I go on?

[OutFlying]

willl I also need to do an exam to own a dog ? or a horse ? if not why not ?

[OutFlying]

If you own a registered species of hawk - DEFRA can call at anytime now.

[SkyRider]

willl I also need to do an exam to own a dog ? or a horse ? if not why not ?

Do you have to watch a dog or a horses weight so carefully? Will a general house dog or barnyard horse just as soon take your head off as look at you? Do you have to watch what you feed your horse or dog as carefully as you do a hawk? Do they sell "hawk food" at your local grocery store or ranch supply store?

That comment coming from a falconer. You should know completely otherwise.

[Moritz]

What is about you other people from the UK? Do you want a license or not?

Moritz

[Sean]

lol funny u say that outflying, i worked in a petshop for a few months and u wouldnt beleie the amount of people comign in, saying they have a puppy in a box in there car, what do they need and what should they do,

[OutFlying]

How long will a hawk last if it's not fed, if it dies this is cruelty - laws are already in place.

The world is becoming a "NANNY STATE" pushing laws governing stupid people onto responsible people. If someone is going to neglect a hawk they will do it with or without a piece of paper.

[Sean]

put what breeder would sell a hawk to someone without a lisence? if there was one

[Moritz]

The keeping of horses and dogs is different from Falconry but you still need knownledge to keep them in a good state and the right feeding of a horse is not as easy as you think. I know people that have got the german falconry license and they still are **** at weight control, I do not have it as I didn't have time to do it, does that mean that they are now falconers and I am not?

Moritz

[SkyRider]

The keeping of horses and dogs is different from Falconry but you still need knownledge to keep them in a good state and the right feeding of a horse is not as easy as you think. I know people that have got the german falconry license and they still are **** at weight control, I do not have it as I didn't have time to do it, does that mean that they are now falconers and I am not?

Moritz

If you want to get legal, no. If you stay away from that yes. In my opinion, a falconer is anyone who can fly their birds often, keep them in as perfect condition as possible and knows what he's doing.

A license would not make or break a falconer who is already practicing well. It would make or break the wanna-be's who wouldn't practice it well.

[Moritz]

I do not life in germany so the license does not matter for me. I know what you mean and it makes sence, but some good hard volenteer work at a center or with an experienced falconer can break them as good as the test.

Moritz

[OutFlying]

Most people who aren't dedicated soon give up the sport. All animal welfare is already tightly governed.

So apart from keeping the non dedicated away from a hawk a little longer what is it achieving ? If they are practising falconry and catching quarry and their hawk is alive at the end of the season - they must be doing something right.

[SkyRider]

I do not life in germany so the license does not matter for me. I know what you mean and it makes sence, but some good hard volenteer work at a center or with an experienced falconer can break them as good as the test.

Moritz

Not everyone has a rehab center near by. On top of that, rehab centers can only hire so many people. A test can be given out to anyone interested and if it's not nearby, people can still get it.

[Sean]

no bird of prey centre near me :S, i found ti very hard to find anyone interested in falconry and willign to help me

[SkyRider]

Most people who aren't dedicated soon give up the sport. All animal welfare is already tightly governed.

So apart from keeping the non dedicated away from a hawk a little longer what is it achieving ? If they are practising falconry and catching quarry and their hawk is alive at the end of the season - they must be doing something right.

And how long will that take them? You can kill a raptor awful quick.

Keeping the non-dedicated away a little longer? If they ain't dedicated, they're not coming back!

Doing something right isn't enough. You can catch quarry, and keep your hawk alive... but what goes on behind those barred windows or that door to your house? Abuse because they don't know it's system of rewards? Injuries to the hawk due to a poorly equipped and prepared "Falconer?" Think about it... a test shouldn't be a problem for you, you should welcome it if you care about BOPs.

[OutFlying]

No you are missing the point - neglect is already legislated. Once you've pass the exam what will make the falconer maintain these standards ?

[IAmTheWeasel]

willl I also need to do an exam to own a dog ? or a horse ? if not why not ?Considering the amount on stupid dog, cat, horse etc... owners....Yes I think people should have to have some sort of determining factor to prove their dedication to an other animal that can't speak for themselves......Including children!

[SkyRider]

No you are missing the point - neglect is already legislated. Once you've pass the exam what will make the falconer maintain these standards ?

If you've gone through all that we have to get licensed, neglect is not going to happen. It's a self-determination and peer-pressure that keeps the falconer at these standards. If you've gotten licensed in the US, chances are, you know your stuff, know what to do and won't neglect your bird. A test will help UK falconers in the same way.

[OutFlying]

That's exactly where I'm coming from Weasel, I was going to mention children but thought better :lol: I think once you start bringing more and more rules into force then where does it stop. There should be a law against stupid people breeding but there isn't :wink:

[Renton]

No you are missing the point - neglect is already legislated. Once you've pass the exam what will make the falconer maintain these standards ?

Given that a licence is required to drive a motor vehicle on the public highway. Why are there so many nutters out on the roads?

[OutFlying]

Has the licence stopped them being nutters ?

[Sean]

prevention is better than cure, i bet every1 would be a road rampager if it werent for licensing system

[Ben C]

Compared to countries without driving licences the UK, is per capita, very safe indeed.

Passing exams in falconry should be an inspirational thing. Something to aim for, and a very very presteigious thing. Without regulations and exams any hunting group is exposed to very powerful forces.

[OutFlying]

Sean,
Enforcement is used to stop nutters, the licence allows them on the road. Take away the police and where does the licence leave you ?

The same as a falconry licence without enforcement would be a waste of time.
OF.

[Renton]

Has the licence stopped them being nutters ?

Only until they get caught! With the almost complete lack of traffic policing in the UK, apart from speed cameras, they can get away with anything.

Who would police a falconry licence?

[Moritz]

I am not talking about rehab centers, but Bird of prey centers that do falconry for teaching falconry.
The problem Sean hade will also be there when there is a license. A license will make falconry even more expensive and there for less people that have got the dedication will do the sport.

Moritz

[IAmTheWeasel]

Most people who aren't dedicated soon give up the sport. All animal welfare is already tightly governed.

So apart from keeping the non dedicated away from a hawk a little longer what is it achieving ? If they are practising falconry and catching quarry and their hawk is alive at the end of the season - they must be doing something right.Outflying, Everyone of your posts so far have the exact same ring to it as if you are doing nothing but searching for things to stick into the conversation for the sake of stirring it up. Take the post you made above for instance.......If they turn out to not be dedicated to the sport after they have already bought a bird ...What happens to the bird? It either gets left on the doorstep of a falconry center in half arsed shape, it is handed off to a friend who is equally inept as a falconer or by some stroke of luck, a real falconer is close by to take on the bird if it is salvageable. Why bother with this issue when you can stop it before it starts by making the individual prove that he has the needed skills and dedication to take care of the bird before he turns everything tits up?I am not talking about the ones that make it a few years and then give up, I am talking about the ones that think keeping a pet raptor is cool so they can prance around claiming to be a falconer. This is slowly eating away at the integrity of falconry at it's core. What kind of impression does it make when someone has a raptor in poor feather in a cage way to small and they never do anything but toss in a bit of food so friends can see it eat? Considering that in the UK all birds are CB, this should even be more of a concern as they cannot be released. They have to be maintained throughout their life span and the person who takes on that resposability should be very serious about doing it.
We are not talking about a test so difficult that you need to have a degree to pass, but rather one that have some needed info such as husbandry suggestions for proper housing, feeding the proper diet, flying it regularly at game and most of all that it takes alot of time to care for a hawk. These things seem to be lacking in a general sence to the average person who takes an interest in BOP. Three basic things will be helped if they are required to do a bit of studying for a test. 1. they will gain the basic information needed to care for a raptor and 2. It will show them some of the basic training methods needed to keep a BOP in good healthy shape 3. it will weed out quite a few of the casually interested pet keepers when they realize that they actually have to work to get one.
JMHO
Weasel

[OutFlying]

Yes but who is going to enforce it ? I'm not stirring it up but putting an alternative view to yourself. What I can't understand is why one rule for a certain animal and not all others ?

[Mathew simonds]

I think there should be one, as some of you said, just to make sure novices don't get their hands on the birds, and don't have a clue on what they are doing. Months, Years - what ever it takes for training, it should go ahead, that way, practicly everyone is trained in the same way, and know what their doing. And if the training is like a few years, they must be dedicated. I know I would waste like 2-3 years (or more) in training for something thats going to last 2 weeks.

[Renton]

Who would enforce/police a UK falconry licence? The USA system has a lot to commend it. Although, is it not a little too restrictive? How would it work in the UK? Retrospective legislation?

[Ben C]

Fishing License has the EA, then we would have the equivalent....the point is not to pick holes in something that will endeavour to keep the anti's at bay. Virtually every other country sport has programs culminateing in a qualification. Why should falconry be any different???

[OutFlying]

Renton,
I think there is a major difference between the UK and the USA, i.e a wild take. If someone could just go and collect a hawk from the wild for free then I could understand there being restrictions but in the UK I would expect anyone with half a brain to do the research before having to pay for a hawk. And therefore cannot see the difference between buying any animal in the UK, if I buy a dog I am expected to care for it and the same goes for a hawk. But if anyone could go into a field and catch a free hawk then some sort of restraint must be in place.

OF.

[BrianM]

personally i didnt have any training,,,,,, 6 years ago i kept parrots and fancied a change,,i i bought a female ferrug from a guy out of cage and avairy,,,,,, got a copy of "training birds of prey" JPJ,,, followed it page by page and a week and a half later she was flying free,,,,, the wrong way to do it?? perhaps...but i am still in the hobby 6 years later,,

[Ben C]

There will always be anomolies but these are the exception to the rule. For every one of you BrianM, there are 100 who are like the chap on the sick saker thread.

OF................there are a LOT of people with only 1/4 of a brain out there mate......This is a sport of kings and princes and so should be carried on in that manner. 2 years training is nowt to go through for a lifetimes fun is it?

[Renton]

OF
Was not making a reference to trapping a bird from the wild . The exam, mews inspection and mentoring system was more my point. Can an apprentice falconer in the USA buy a bird instead of trapping it? Hopefully, those who have more knowledge on this matter might elucidate.

Would that work in the UK?

Agree with you that being able to buy any sort of animal, without some sort of control, has caused a huge number of abuses. As you say, the legislation is there; unfortunately it sometimes is enforced too late.

The onus is upon the keeper!

[OutFlying]

There will always be anomolies but these are the exception to the rule. For every one of you BrianM, there are 100 who are like the chap on the sick saker thread.

OF................there are a LOT of people with only 1/4 of a brain out there mate......This is a sport of kings and princes and so should be carried on in that manner. 2 years training is nowt to go through for a lifetimes fun is it?

Do you really belief for every 100 hawks - 99 are neglected ? I believe Saker ???? has something to do with a falconry center - so should have a very good understanding of a hawks requirements and therefore would be guilty of neglect and not a lack of understanding of birds of prey, these are 2 separate issues. How many falconry exams and courses did people do for centuries before modern times - answer none but they still understood the basic and advanced requirements needed for falconry.

[IAmTheWeasel]

No, actually they regarded their charges like gold as they where a means of survival. Not like today where they are a form of sport and to some.....presteige.

[OutFlying]

I don't think the kings and lords needed them for survival... they were used for sport.

[Bullet_Jesses]

8) Gents,
I am one of the few falconers who came from a country (UK) with few rules and regs on Falconry to one, that has many (USA).I can readily relate to both sides of this issue. I really have to say this though, the American system is by far, the only way to go.Not only does passing their test give you that feel good factor, but it has made me more aware or this great sport of ours. It makes you discipline yourself a lot more knowing that there is someone looking over your shoulder. We are only human after all and mistakes will still occur, no matter what (Murphy’s law). Having the rules and regs to follow is no bad thing .I myself don’t profess to know all the laws here on falconry (getting old) but I can readily refer to them at a moments notice.
The other great thing about being licensed here in the states is the fact that you can legally go and trap or take young from the nest at specific times of the year. This is a tremendous privilege and one that I was never afforded to me back in the UK. To say I am a better falconer because of the test/license ? It’s not for me to say. We all need guidance in our lives, some may call them laws, others, instruction. When all is said and done, it’s not really about us, but about these fantastic hawks and falcons that we all know and love so well.
We are, in my humble opinion, the prime custodians of these fine creatures and anything that makes it better and safer for them, is definitely a plus! Jim.C

Help!!!!!!!! I just fell off my soap box!!!!!

[Ben C]

Very true, but the key word is LIKE Saker???. In as much as they don't have the welfare of their hawks at the heart of their thinking. Perhaps because they didn't get enough support or education. Most if not all bad animal husbandry is not through wilfull negelect, but because they have not got enough training.

My figures have been misunderstood, BrianM didn't get any help and thankfully he has suceeded. But I am sure that if 100 other people didn't get any training and just used a book, there would be a massive % who would fail miserable and ****** up an animal.

I would also suggest that before modern times there were a lot less people practising falconry, and it was in a different historical context. Ease of purchase, low price and quantity has helped some animals suffer.

[IAmTheWeasel]

I don't think the kings and lords needed them for survival... they were used for sport.Your right.....but I do beleive that those peasants outnumbered the lords and kings 1000 to 1 and they used falcons and hawks to put dinner on the table up until the times when gunpowder was introduced to europe in the early 1300's

[OutFlying]

To all,
As I've said before you can't legalislate for idiots, caring for a hawk is something that requires prior knowledge and a level of knowledge - most people will get this information one way or another (books, courses or apprenticeship) if they choose not to then more fool them. But to licence certain keeping of hawks against other animals that require attention strikes of double standards to me.

The main point being who is going to regulate this license over and above the present laws governing animals welfare. Will they go hunting with you every year to check your standards haven't dropped etc. Whose going to pay for it ?

If you feel you don't have the knowledge to keep a hawk THEN don't, go do the research.

OF.

Passing an exam shows you can learn a subject - it does not mean you can practice the subject.

[Ben C]

The way I see it is the license is TO PRACTICE FALCONRY, not to keep a hawk, which as you have quite rightly stated is covered by existing laws.

[OutFlying]

To practice falconry, will this be govern by the same standards as to practice shooting and fishing ? BenC once you start the ball rolling where does it stop ?

[Ben C]

OF............I know exactly what you are saying, and I would love a world free from legislation, rules and responsibility towards politicians. I would love for the world to be a place where anyone with an interest can be free to pursue it, and not have the threat of it being removed. I mean this sincerely not at all sacastically as well mate.

However you need a license for a gun and you need a license for fishing. These sports pay into the government coffers, and will have a better foot hold when the ******s start moving towards a ban.

It will only take a few examples of cruelty or bad management for them to move towards lumping every falconer together. However a code of conduct, or a license allows those in possession to distance themselves from those who don't.

I suppose the bottom line is can you identify any areas of weakness in the way falconry is practiced today? Hypothetically, which bits could be used for a case against us in a court of law (I am not asking you to list em just in case they get picked up on :) :) ).

[OutFlying]

Yes you have a licence for a gun and fishing but you don't pass an exam to get them. I have a licence for my goshawk off DEFRA, licencing of hawks already exists, welfare laws already exist or you now talking of taking a hunting exam ?

[OutFlying]

What do you falconry clubs are for ?

[Ben C]

Once again true, but not everyone flies a Gos. I don't need a license for owning my harris, just breeding papers.

[OutFlying]

BenC,
Why do you think DEFRA made it so that all hawks didn't need to be registered ? Do you think it might have something to do with costs ?
OF.

[Ben C]

Explain a bit further please mate?

[Kevin Massey]

I'm kind of in total agreeance with you on this o/f.... but i do thinks its very wrong that anyone can just go out buy a hawk not knowing jack about it what so ever ( and before you reply i feel the same about all animals dogs cats reptiles etc)....

at the moment there isn't a single government body (defra,rspca etc) that knows i have hawks....and gawd knows how many more there are out there unregistered !!!.....it just don't seem right.

as for an exam...well i would want to do one if it was voluntary any how just to show myself that i have reached a standard of competence in falconry....but like you have said that doesn't mean that i will not miss treat my hawks etc does it..

Kev

[IAmTheWeasel]

What do you falconry clubs are for ?Are you required to join them? Do the pet keepers who don't fly join the clubs and go to social event with others?

[OutFlying]

One last one BenC for tonight,
When you get a shotgun or firearms licence it doesn't enable you to hunt it allows you to own that type of fire arm, you then buy a game licence - exactly the same licence as for falconry.

Don't impose restrictions on one form of hunting without imposing the same on all. In this day and age it would take a brave sportman to open up the present laws to an option of change :shock: with the government we have. Protect what we have not open it up to further restrictions. If you want to protect your sport join a falconry club affilated to the hawk board or the countryside alliance or both.

OF.

[Kevin Massey]

weeze....no you dont have to be a member

kev

[IAmTheWeasel]

Yes you have a licence for a gun and fishing but you don't pass an exam to get them. I have a licence for my goshawk off DEFRA, licencing of hawks already exists, welfare laws already exist or you now talking of taking a hunting exam ?No, but they do have many laws to restrict them. And do you know why laws are there? To stop some of the idiots who do things unethicly. The license you speak of has absolutely nothing to do with how you keep your bird except under the most extreeme conditions, where a falconry permit would hold you to coditions set forth by some governing body. I don't like the idea of all the laws, but I do like the idea of some kind of minimum requirements such as a test to prove if you hold the qualities neccisary to even begin in this sport.

[OutFlying]

so if I wanted to catch a pheasant with a hawk I need different rules than if I want to shot it ?

[Tanith]

As someone who is moving to the US in the not too distant future I think the licence is a good thing. I will soon have to try and convince them that the experience I have is enough to grant me general falconer status and although it will not be easy I have been told by the relevant authorities it is not impossible. If I don't suceed, I will work my butt off and pass the exam coz life without my hawk is non negotiable. We should not be afraid to show our commitment by taking an exam.

[OutFlying]

[quote="Domestic Godess 2"]As someone who is moving to the US in the not too distant future I think the licence is a good thing. I will soon have to try and convince them that the experience I have is enough to grant me general falconer status and although it will not be easy I have been told by the relevant authorities it is not impossible. If I don't suceed, I will work my butt off and pass the exam coz life without my hawk is non negotiable. We should not be afraid to show our commitment by taking an exam.[/quote

So what your saying is that I can hunt with a gun or go fishing with no qualifications but if I choose to hunt with a hawk I need to pass an exam ?

[Tanith]

Thats not what i am saying. Reading the threads it seems that us brits are afraid to demonstrate our knowledge by sitting an exam.

[OutFlying]

why do we have to ? why not shooting and fishing as well - since the welfare side is already catered for ? will the owl keepers also take the exam ?

Once you start where does it finish ?

[IAmTheWeasel]

Outflying, You are still fishing with questions that hold no or little water. Why falconry and not guns....Hmmmmm....Because you can put up a gun for the season and not look back at it!!!!!!!
an owl is a raptor so it would fall under the same catagory wouldn't you think?

[Ben C]

OF. In terms of striking a balance across all field sports is a good thing and you have valid points, however it really is up to those specififc pursuits to get themselves sorted. Its no good saying "well its not the same for shooting and fishing, so why should we" if it needs to be done to make us MORE secure, then we have to bite the bullet.

Joining a club is more or less redundant now anyway, ask yourself where all the money and interest is in falconry. Its with experience days and COURSES. Clubs although important are not where a license to practice/qualification should be applied.

The CA (gets my money and I will be helping on the stalls this year) did ****** all for fox hunting.

Fishing is an interesting one to look at;
It has a minister specific to it, the EA does a massive amount of certificated courses, they have a proffessional anglers qualification, they have a junior coach certificates, they have open days and demonstrations, they organise fishing competitions in schools, and help clean litter up off the banks and re-plant and clean streams and brooks.

ECHO (English Carp Heritage Organisation) Fights on a government level to prevent importation of europen fish, and also provides codes of practice for youngsters. The famous fishermen have open days, and carp competitions sposored by massive tackle manufactures. We have a female team who have won the world cup loads of times, along with a brilliant world standard team.

All of this has been done from within their own house as it were. Without 'opening it up to scrutiny'. Fishing will be the last to go, partly because of numbers, but mainly because it is run to very squeaky standards and is honest about improving itself. :) :) :)

Perhaps a license is the wrong word, but even our proffessional body feels it is important to sort something out. So I have a feeling we will be asked to fall in line soon. :) :)

[OutFlying]

Clubs are unimportant ? Who funds the hawk board which is the only body the government listen to ?

Clubs also have apprenticeship schemes, code of practice, rules and regulations also members who are a large FREE source of information. Probably a good place to go first before thinking of taking falconry up seriously as you could meet and ask questions to various diffferent people who will fly a wide range of hawks and falcons - who actually hunt with them. Many centers don't hunt and courses could prove expensive to some.

OF.

[OutFlying]

Outflying, You are still fishing with questions that hold no or little water. Why falconry and not guns....Hmmmmm....Because you can put up a gun for the season and not look back at it!!!!!!!
an owl is a raptor so it would fall under the same catagory wouldn't you think?

Not really, as had been said before if you neglect your hawk IT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE ALREADY.........................................

Ignorance won't hold water in court, so I need to get a falconry license by passing an exam to get the knowledge to know how to feed and house a hawk ? Many animals need special feeding requirements but don't need a license.

When hunting fieldcraft and quarry recognism is the same for shooting and falconry - if your going to levy standards on one form of hunting then why not all ?

OF.

[Saker-Clive]

It is already Jim for shooting; if you want to shoot deer, you have to take the DSC1 as a minimum, before 'proper' deer shoots will let you shoot. This I could make into a seperate thread but to shoot deer, you must be able to identify the species, know how to gralloch it, know certain tell tale sign of disease, parasites etc. be able to place 4 bullets within a certain area at varying distances......................................... ................

[Moritz]

In german you need a license for hunting, fishing and falconry. It costs a lot of money to do so and that keeps many people of it. I think falconry should not be the sport of the Kings and Queens any more but the sport of the dedicated sports man regardless how much mony you have got in your pocket. Ofcourse a certain amount of mony is needed to care for a bird but not 10000s.

Moritz

[OutFlying]

http://www.britishfalconersclub.co.uk/code_conduct.htm


A member must uphold the highest standards of welfare, housing and feeding of hawks. The welfare of a hawk must override any other consideration.
A member should not train a hawk unless he can fly it regularly at suitable quarry.

[Saker-Clive]

There are codes of conduct/practice for all sports; it doesn't make them legal; if I go out shooting and take a Roe deer with my rimfire and get caught, I lose my firearms licence and weapons. If I shoot something that is not stipulated on my licence for that calibre, I can if caught or found out, lose my licence etc....................

Look at the news over the past few days; government are now begining to ban the sale and manufacture of replica guns, to stop the minority of morons that think they can 'large' it up and do what they want.

http://www.basc.org.uk/

[OutFlying]

Saker-Saker,
The conditions on your licence are legal requirements, so are the requirements for housing and feeding a hawk - the law already exists.

OF

[OutFlying]

It is already Jim for shooting; if you want to shoot deer, you have to take the DSC1 as a minimum, before 'proper' deer shoots will let you shoot. This I could make into a seperate thread but to shoot deer, you must be able to identify the species, know how to gralloch it, know certain tell tale sign of disease, parasites etc. be able to place 4 bullets within a certain area at varying distances......................................... ................

If I want to shoot a shotgun (which I use to) there is no legal requirement to be able to shoot straight or know any additional knowledge, just a lockable cabinet and a reason to have the gun. No tests on your hunting ability is tested. Or ability to demostrate safe handling of a firearm.

Why bring in further restrictions to a sport already under pressure ? If you think having a license will stop the anti's your wrong. What happen to all the lawful handgun owners after Dunblane - who had licences ?

OF.

[Ben C]

:) Is it fair to say then OF, that on reflection you are happy with the way in which falconry is practiced, accessed, conducted and maintained mate?
:) :)

[OutFlying]

no, I am happy with the way I conduct myself. If someone can't look after their own hawks they are laws already to bring them into line.

BenC, who is going to enforce these falconry practices ?

[OutFlying]

Iamtheweasel, who enforces the rules and regulations regarding falconry in the USA ? Do they do spot checks on your premises and accompany you in the field and check that the standards are maintained ?

OF.

[Superfly]

Why would this qualification make people keep there hawks in better conditions ?You aren't seriously asking that question.... are you? It would be the same reason that ANYTHING that takes skill requires some level of knowledge and an exam....

Err no, what it would show is those that can pass an exam. I've worked with enough folks who have qualifications up to their a** but cannot actually do the job very competently to know one does not automatically infer the other.
It's one thing to know all the lingo, read the books, get all the right details, that does not indicate any desire or ability to put that into practice.

Any license would more than likely be built around a set 'theory' exam rather than people actually going out and checking that the person in question can demonstrate that knowledge at a physical/practical level.

I could probably get the info I needed to pass an exam in very short order, whether I have the ability, time or money to ensure my BOP is given the attention and respect it deserves cannot be proven.
Let's face it, your car MOT is only valid at the point of examination, meaning, as soon as you drive the car out the shop, you can still be pulled for driving a car in dangerous condition. Same with any exam such as this, only good at point of exam, to make it worthwhile, follow up visits would be needed.
I write software for the emergency services, this sort of thing is common, they don't just hand out safety certs, they do regular inspections and can revoke the cert if the person/property fails them.
Now that sort of setup I think may work, but somehow, I don't see the governments being willing to put in the amount of effort and cash needed for that level of regulation for what they would consider a "minority".

[OutFlying]

a license without enforcement is just a piece of paper.

[Ben C]

No set up is fool proof, no educational system is water tight. However it should be accountable and comprehensive. The laws that are in place only come into play at a point when everything has gone tits up. I.E when the hawk is very poorly. prevention is better than cure.

As I say a License is probably a bad word. But the bottom line is anyone can purchase a hawk, anyone can set up a centre, and anyone can teach falconry. That is a shambles and will be problematic in the long run if not RIGHT NOW.

Qualified, proffesional instructors, following an agreed curriculum with an agreed qualification set up by falconer for falconers is at least is a starting point.

[OutFlying]

BenC,
Who is going to enforce these standards, what standards - if you neglect your hawks their are laws governing this already.

Prevention is better than cure, If a person is so stupid as to buy a hawk and kill it through lack of knowledge this is negligence not lack of a qualification.
OF

[Ben C]

I think even as we write our thoughts down on here, the hawk board is in the process of compiling an exam. I think members of the Proffessional Falconer Association (?) are sorting the standards out as we speak. I do believe that you will also have the option to opt out as well mate.

negligence comes from a lack of knowledge, no one purposly buys a hawk to kill or hurt it. Only because they have not been taught properly I expect. :) :)

[Moritz]

I think it is bad that this Assosiation of Professional Falconers sets the standadards they just whant to make more money by makeing the nvices do one of their courses and give them their money. They will say that only tested centers are allowed to do the courses that are offical. But their are differnet ways of teaching falconry so the falconers that do it in a different styl would have to change their way of teaching. I know centers that won't do that and their teaching is better then in other centers I have visited and that will be offical teaching schools. I think Adrian is active in this association, tell us something about it!

Moritz

[Ben C]

Moritz.................you are not forced to take the tests, and a centre doesn't have to do anything it doesn't want (I imagine), and everyone has to make money in order to live. Apart from which I would imagine that the idea is to have a skeleton framework onto which falconers of more experience can add subsequent modules while still attaining a very good overall standard.

[Moritz]

I will be a professional falconer my self sone and a lot friends of mine have centers, but why does this association set the standards and not the Hawkboard etc?

Moritz

[OutFlying]

I think even as we write our thoughts down on here, the hawk board is in the process of compiling an exam. I think members of the Proffessional Falconer Association (?) are sorting the standards out as we speak. I do believe that you will also have the option to opt out as well mate.

negligence comes from a lack of knowledge, no one purposly buys a hawk to kill or hurt it. Only because they have not been taught properly I expect. :) :)

Did you kill your first hawk by not feeding it or know anyone that has ?

[Ben C]

Nope I didn't, but thankfully I was taught to an exacting standard by a mentor who belongs to the Proffessional Falconers Association.

[OutFlying]

who made to research the subject first ? did you use common sense ? Let's not turn this country into a complete NANNY STATE ................

[Superfly]

a license without enforcement is just a piece of paper.
Just so, just so.
As opposed to my marriage license, which is STRICTLY enforced each day by she who must be obeyed! :lol:

[Superfly]

As I say a License is probably a bad word. But the bottom line is anyone can purchase a hawk, anyone can set up a centre, and anyone can teach falconry. That is a shambles and will be problematic in the long run if not RIGHT NOW.

Quoted for complete agreement, but the problem remains, how do we control it and who does the controlling? Given the way the government is going, I don't see them being keen to do anytging constructive in this area.

Rather akin to their attitude with guns, give the registered lawbiding users a hard time. After all, that will put the criminal element in their place.. yeah right!
"ooh, a new gun restriction, so this AK47 with hollow point ammo I use to wipe out rival gang members with to protect my drug patch is no longer legal ..oo - I must hand it in"
What sort of an idiot MP actually thinks anything that restricts the legit folks has any impact whatsoever on the criminal fraternity?

[Superfly]

Moritz.................you are not forced to take the tests, and a centre doesn't have to do anything it doesn't want (I imagine)
That depends...
If they have zoo license, then nope, they have a LOT they need to do, plus there can be 'check' visits from authorities etc. Of course, if they don't "display" their birds to the public to raise funds, well, let's just say, of some of the stories I've heard, dog leads and small cages can be the best of the worse. :(
Trouble is, unless you have a neighbour who is both knowlegable about BOPs and has both backbone and concience, many of these people never appear on the radar, would that it were otherwise.

[Ben C]

Since when has any form of structured learning been a nanny state mate? That would make me a nanny :) :)

First point of contact was to find the right man for the job. lucy did her research and found him. Then we talked and we took it from there. Not once was were we left alone to work it out without a chat and discussion.

[OutFlying]

BenC,
You - yourself decided to further your knowledge, common sense told you to research the subject. This could have be done via a course, book or apprenticeship scheme - nobody from the government had to tell you to do this. When somebody dictates to you that your not fit to learn a subject yourself without having to pay someone to show you - the it becomes A NANNY STATE.

[Superfly]

..and let's face it .. the results so far of Nanny state mentality have been less than stunning.
Heck, when you see a note on a packet of peanuts saying it may contain nuts, well, makes you wonder jsut how stupid the general public are becoming. ;)
(no, I jest not - I have seen it - makes me chuckle every time)

[Ben C]

Very true (and this is partly why I agree with your sentiments mate), but thats not what I really talking about. I am not asking the government to dictate to me. I am asking those with a huge amount of experience to produce a structured course and qualification which improves and raises the standard of those beginning the long journey of falconry. People can participate in this or not I suppose, it's up to them. :) :)

Riding schools do not need to be certified by the BHS (British Horse Society) but Lucy wouldn't dream of stepping foot on a yard that wasn't. She is an Equine Scientist and has worked with one of the top Arab studs in the UK.

MAY CONTAIN NUTS................Classic :) :)

[Superfly]

I am asking those with a huge amount of experience to produce a structured course and qualification which improves and raises the standard of those beginning the long journey of falconry. People can participate in this or not I suppose, it's up to them. :) :)

Totally agree with this idea and the best place to learn is from those with the know-how. Heck, everything I have learned about BOP's has been because I've been fortunate enough to be involved with those who really care about them and their welfare. One thing to pass an exam, quite another to do the work under the watchful gaze of those looking for any mistakes. ;)

[Renton]

I am asking those with a huge amount of experience to produce a structured course and qualification which improves and raises the standard of those beginning the long journey of falconry.

Isn't that what Nick Fox is doing already?

[OutFlying]

Isn't that why the major falconry clubs are running apprenticeship schemes all for the pricely sum of a annual subscription..................................

[Ben C]

If they are then they won't mind making it official through the hawk board then will they? :)

[OutFlying]

official or legal - very big difference

[Ben C]

One is a short step to the other, but I do take your point mate. :) :) This one will run and run, so I am going to wait until the suggestions are published, and we can have an even longer discussion mate!!!! :) :)

I shall agree to dis-agree on some points OF, if thats okay with you?

[Renton]

Compliance or compulsion?

[OutFlying]

correct Renton.

BenC, I'll think you'll find the new falconry qualification has involvement from the BFC, The Hawkboard and other clubs but it is not a legal requirement to have it.

The clubs already run schemes to provide a very good grounding in falconry at a very small price if people want to go on courses for greater costs then let them. Don't know how long you'd spend on the course in the field learning the fieldcraft and another techniques not available in the classroom.

But the original thread was based on a legal requirement to have a falconry license - this I don't agree with. Animal welfare laws exist, schemes, books, courses etc exist - if someone buys a raptor and causes suffering to it, they will be dealt with the courts. There is no organization in the UK that would be able to monitor a falconers behavior or practices in the field or home other than what is available now.