Please help - Stop mantling!!!

[Little Joe]

I've started a thread a while back trying to find out where exactly I went wrong with a captive bred, parent reared tiercel, since he mantled like a maniac. I got some very helpful responses from some experienced members.

I now humbly call on them again, and anyone for that matter to give ideas and advice. This same bird is still mantling like a maniac on the lure and fist and his behaviour is starting to take a feather toll...:evil:

I fly him daily to the lure, sometimes doing a few passes, sometimes not. He is way higher than hunting weight and is in all respects a model bird, except for the mantling. Initially I gave him a bite or two from the lure before casting him off, and stealing it away has caused his behaviour. I have completely stopped giving him anything before he flies since about a month or two ago, but no improvement as yet. I dont let him eat much from the lure, but pick him up quickly and let him eat his whole meal on the fist. I never touch his food or try to take anything, but he's blown up like a mad thing until he swallows the last bit. He always eats like a gannet and is always sticky on the glove. He often looks for more food in the dark after I hooded him. I say again, he's fat as butter.

What am I doing wrong? How do I cure this mantling nonsense, please?

[HawkMom]

I have a Barbary that was a bad mantler. He is now 11 years old and my favorite falcon. What I did was a repeated game off the lure. I had him hop around on the ground for tidbits. He had to go find them and such. Same with the glove. No large chunks tidbits. I also use thumb forceps (giant tweezers) 10 inch for handling food. Then my hand does not 'block' the food and start defensive posturing. Also, you must wait for the bird to finish the tidbits. Don't rush him.

[Spring]

Hi did you ever feed him in the hood ?

[Little Joe]

Hi did you ever feed him in the hood ?

No, never.

[Little Joe]

I have a Barbary that was a bad mantler. He is now 11 years old and my favorite falcon. What I did was a repeated game off the lure. I had him hop around on the ground for tidbits. He had to go find them and such. Same with the glove. No large chunks tidbits. I also use thumb forceps (giant tweezers) 10 inch for handling food. Then my hand does not 'block' the food and start defensive posturing. Also, you must wait for the bird to finish the tidbits. Don't rush him.

Are you suggesting that there should be no food on the lure and that he only gets small bits on the fist, but the bulk of his meal as tidbits on the ground around him?

[HawkMom]

His lure has a small tidbit. After he had fed on that. I toss several small tidbits around on the ground. He hops around and feeds on them. I toss them close to my feet, so he has to be close to me to get them. I've found it a way to develop trust.

[CanadaManada]

My imprint gos has been a bit off recently. I took to feeding him his ration chopped up on the ground, spread out over a square foot area. The mantling stopped immediately.
In Bert's book he mentions that to cure a hot bird on a kill (in your case lure) offer him tidbits everytime he starts to pluck. I tried this with a pr goshawk with a frozen pigeon lure and after the first gorge on quail tidbits, he stepped off the lure to fly to the outstretched fist everytime, happy as could be.
Now the question begs asking - are you SURE he's 100% PR? I ask because I associate bolting down food to creche-rearing. If he had to fight his sisters for food at a young age and lost, you've got a mantling bird who believes in it.

Justin

[Little Joe]

My imprint gos has been a bit off recently. I took to feeding him his ration chopped up on the ground, spread out over a square foot area. The mantling stopped immediately.
In Bert's book he mentions that to cure a hot bird on a kill (in your case lure) offer him tidbits everytime he starts to pluck. I tried this with a pr goshawk with a frozen pigeon lure and after the first gorge on quail tidbits, he stepped off the lure to fly to the outstretched fist everytime, happy as could be.
Now the question begs asking - are you SURE he's 100% PR? I ask because I associate bolting down food to creche-rearing. If he had to fight his sisters for food at a young age and lost, you've got a mantling bird who believes in it.

Justin

Mmmmm... thanks Justin, some food for thought there. Thing is, this bird will sit on the lure with wings tucked in, but as soon as I so much as look at him, he starts mantling and from there its just downhill. If I come near him with a tidbit in the bare fist or the glove, he literally tries to push his tail and primaries into the ground... painful to watch! He will jump or fly to the fist when he's done on the lure, but then the mantling continues.

I know he was with at least one brother in a pen, but they had plenty plus to eat. He weighed 750g when he arrived, and he's fat now at 630g!!!

I am slowly starting to piece together a strategy from what everyone tells me - I like the chunks of food all over the ground around my feet idea.

Any other thoughts? Please dont hold back. :)

[Little Joe]

His lure has a small tidbit. After he had fed on that. I toss several small tidbits around on the ground. He hops around and feeds on them. I toss them close to my feet, so he has to be close to me to get them. I've found it a way to develop trust.

It sounds very workable, thanks, I will certainly try this. He comes to the lure very well and I think I might even forego a tidbit on the lure alltogether at this stage. Need to make an artificial lure now quickly, since up to now my lure had been the legs and a wing of a quail. :rolleyes:

I'll keep you updated and if you think of anything else, please shout. Thanks again for the kind advice.

[Jack]

Little Joe, the thing you are doing wrong is trying to work with a hawk that is butter fat. Not only does a hawk work better for hunting at a good flying weight, but it also effects his attitude in just about every other aspect of your falconry. Drop his weight back down to his normal hunting weight and he should stop that for the most part. I can not stress enough that working with a fat hawk is a perfect recipe for creating bad and nasty habits.

Jack

[Little Joe]

Little Joe, the thing you are doing wrong is trying to work with a hawk that is butter fat. Not only does a hawk work better for hunting at a good flying weight, but it also effects his attitude in just about every other aspect of your falconry. Drop his weight back down to his normal hunting weight and he should stop that for the most part. I can not stress enough that working with a fat hawk is a perfect recipe for creating bad and nasty habits.

Jack

Thanks Jack, I am bringing him down now. Could you explain the principle behind this? Reason I'm asking is that it sounds almost counter intuitive if you know what I mean? One would expect a tigher bird to be more possessive over its food. I realize you are right, but I would appreciate if you can enlighten me about the psychology behind it.

[Jack]

Thanks Jack, I am bringing him down now. Could you explain the principle behind this? Reason I'm asking is that it sounds almost counter intuitive if you know what I mean? One would expect a tigher bird to be more possessive over its food. I realize you are right, but I would appreciate if you can enlighten me about the psychology behind it.


Gosh Joe, that is a toughy. I am not fully understanding the concept myself, but have learned that it does exist. It seems that a bird, raptors in particular, are completely regulated by their body weight. I know that this is hard to understand, or in some cases hard to even believe. However, over here we get to deal with a lot of passage hawks, and even though the principals apply to just about all raptors, imprint or otherwise, it seems to be far more apparent in the passage hawks. manning is a given. It is something we must do. But weight loss is also a necessity. In fact, it is the only constant that we can see. We can do more or less manning or other husbandry, but unless we drop that weight, none of these other applications will have even the slightest effect. And the amount of fat reserves that are removed will decide just how much of the other stuff you will have to do.
Now, when we have a made hawk that does well in the field and at home, it is because it is at the best weight to achieve that behavior. If you allow the weight to come on up you will eventually hit that weight to where control is lost. Or at least it begins to wane. A fat hawk will usually still remain tame enough that if it is hungry it will come to the lure and such, but it will not be in earnest. And once it takes possession of the lure it will mantle and even begin to carry under the right conditions. It will come to the fist but will try to snatch the food and run with it. When we attempt to teach them or at least work with them at fat weights we have the foul attitude to contend with as well as the job of teaching them. They act out and if we reward them in any way it will just reinforce that ugly behavior. The idea is to be able to recognize quickly when that pattern starts to arise.
The caching behavior of the Merlin that so many specialists tend to encourage in their birds is nothing more than a carrying of food and hiding it. They are usually flown fat to achieve this behavior, and in certain cases not even really hungry. They are flirting with the lose of the hawk, and in most cases it happens. I don't think that they fully understand what this behavior means.
Over the years I have been rather curious and have played with some of my hawks. I have tried several applications in an effort to defeat a certain nasty behavior, and have found that the most effective techniques unvolved weight manipulation.

Jack

[Parkie217]

helpful hint which i picked up was: when your falcon or hawk is on the lure throw down 3 quarters of its food down in front of it and walk the full length of the line away( still holding lure). this will make you less of a threat your bird should becpme relaxed and tuck his wings up and sit nicely eating. once he is finished move towards him slow about 1 metre or half metre away place you fist on the floor so he has to come to you to get the food. by this stage he should have lost interest in the lure and just leave straight away onto your fist with no mantling.

give it ago. it works for me

pm me if all goes well or not or any questions

[Trappa]

What a great question and some even better answers! .
No arguments, no disagreements, no-one who has flown a harris for 6 months trying to make out they are frank beebe.:lol:
Sounds silly but knowing zip about falcons i enjoyed that read immensly, it was a pleasure to read.

[Pete J.]

Have you wormed this bird recently, or at all? When they are wormy they often act as though they are bottomless pits in regard to feeding. Just wondering....

[Shaun Bannister]

just out of interest at what age did he come out of the pen?
ive seen birds that come out at the early end of the spectrum develop imprint like behaviour and conversely some that are left in too long with siblings ,particularly males left in with females are prone to mantling

[Little Joe]

Thanks Jack, I am bringing him down now. Could you explain the principle behind this? Reason I'm asking is that it sounds almost counter intuitive if you know what I mean? One would expect a tigher bird to be more possessive over its food. I realize you are right, but I would appreciate if you can enlighten me about the psychology behind it.


Gosh Joe, that is a toughy. I am not fully understanding the concept myself, but have learned that it does exist. It seems that a bird, raptors in particular, are completely regulated by their body weight. I know that this is hard to understand, or in some cases hard to even believe. However, over here we get to deal with a lot of passage hawks, and even though the principals apply to just about all raptors, imprint or otherwise, it seems to be far more apparent in the passage hawks. manning is a given. It is something we must do. But weight loss is also a necessity. In fact, it is the only constant that we can see. We can do more or less manning or other husbandry, but unless we drop that weight, none of these other applications will have even the slightest effect. And the amount of fat reserves that are removed will decide just how much of the other stuff you will have to do.
Now, when we have a made hawk that does well in the field and at home, it is because it is at the best weight to achieve that behavior. If you allow the weight to come on up you will eventually hit that weight to where control is lost. Or at least it begins to wane. A fat hawk will usually still remain tame enough that if it is hungry it will come to the lure and such, but it will not be in earnest. And once it takes possession of the lure it will mantle and even begin to carry under the right conditions. It will come to the fist but will try to snatch the food and run with it. When we attempt to teach them or at least work with them at fat weights we have the foul attitude to contend with as well as the job of teaching them. They act out and if we reward them in any way it will just reinforce that ugly behavior. The idea is to be able to recognize quickly when that pattern starts to arise.
The caching behavior of the Merlin that so many specialists tend to encourage in their birds is nothing more than a carrying of food and hiding it. They are usually flown fat to achieve this behavior, and in certain cases not even really hungry. They are flirting with the lose of the hawk, and in most cases it happens. I don't think that they fully understand what this behavior means.
Over the years I have been rather curious and have played with some of my hawks. I have tried several applications in an effort to defeat a certain nasty behavior, and have found that the most effective techniques unvolved weight manipulation.

Jack

I always enjoy reading your posts, even though you are considered to be slightly controversial by some....;)

What you say makes a ton of sense to me - this kind of thinking always makes me suspect we are just scratching the surface when it comes to understanding the mind of an animal. Luckily we dont have know how electricity works to be able to flick a light switch.

Thanks Jack,

Jannes

[Little Joe]

helpful hint which i picked up was: when your falcon or hawk is on the lure throw down 3 quarters of its food down in front of it and walk the full length of the line away( still holding lure). this will make you less of a threat your bird should becpme relaxed and tuck his wings up and sit nicely eating. once he is finished move towards him slow about 1 metre or half metre away place you fist on the floor so he has to come to you to get the food. by this stage he should have lost interest in the lure and just leave straight away onto your fist with no mantling.

give it ago. it works for me

pm me if all goes well or not or any questions

Thanks, it sounds like a similar technique to what the others have suggested. One has to be pretty confident that your bird is not a carrier though. I am going to put it to the test for the next week and I'll report back.

[Little Joe]

Have you wormed this bird recently, or at all? When they are wormy they often act as though they are bottomless pits in regard to feeding. Just wondering....

I hear you Pete, good point. Maybe worth slamming some tablets down his gob. But he puts on weight very nicely - so I'm not too sure he has parasites. I will do a faecal on him to be sure. Thanks.

[Little Joe]

just out of interest at what age did he come out of the pen?
ive seen birds that come out at the early end of the spectrum develop imprint like behaviour and conversely some that are left in too long with siblings ,particularly males left in with females are prone to mantling

Its a Ray Turner bird and yes, incidentally he was pulled a little late - long story. As far as I know he was in a pen with his brother when they were pulled and shipped to us. Not sure if any sisters shared their accommodation, but if so they were taken out a few weeks earlier.

I have to clarify though, he shows absolutely no signs of any form of imprinting. He is a fantastic tiercel, strong as an ox, natural climber, instant response to the lure even from great height, super aggressive, non-vocal, hoods beautifully, etc.

There is no doubt in my mind that I am the cause of his protective behaviour, but I really want to fix it now before he start dropping feathers. I will need to imp most of the tail feathers before the moult, but he also has to fly through the moult, so its a slightly tough challenge I have now to ensure a decent looking tail for the next season.

[Shaun Bannister]

you mention stoops to the "LURE" from a great height, am i to take it hes not a hunted bird?

[ScottBrady]

Little Joe, the thing you are doing wrong is trying to work with a hawk that is butter fat. Not only does a hawk work better for hunting at a good flying weight, but it also effects his attitude in just about every other aspect of your falconry. Drop his weight back down to his normal hunting weight and he should stop that for the most part. I can not stress enough that working with a fat hawk is a perfect recipe for creating bad and nasty habits.

Jack

Jack,

Thats an excellent point mate, im surprised nobody else suggested that, no disrespect too the other answers given they were all very good points, but too me the main issue is dealing with the bird overweight... If a "parent reared" bird is high in weight then too me it should be lefty alone

Little Joe, In my opinion its pointless trying to work a bird thats fat your leaving yourself wide open to encouraging bad habits like aggression, mantling and carrying. An overweight bird in my opinion will mantle more than an underweight bird. a bird on weight hasnt got time to mantle or carry, it wants too eat straight away.....

Scott

[Little Joe]

you mention stoops to the "LURE" from a great height, am i to take it hes not a hunted bird?

Thats correct sir. He is flown to the lure only in an urban environment - pigeon control. I dont want him killing any pigeons though. He will be a gamehawk later in his life.

[Little Joe]

Little Joe, In my opinion its pointless trying to work a bird thats fat your leaving yourself wide open to encouraging bad habits like aggression, mantling and carrying. An overweight bird in my opinion will mantle more than an underweight bird. a bird on weight hasnt got time to mantle or carry, it wants too eat straight away.....

Scott

I'm willing to try anything now to correct the mistake I made with this bird. I will definately bring his weight right down for a few weeks now until the mantling is fixed, but then I will have to push him back up for the moult. I fly all my birds very high, since I'm not too concerned about them killing. I've had minor mantling issues before, but they sorted themselves out over time - this bird is a different cup of tea though!

[Dean]

It just goes to show that no matter how long you,ve been in the game,no matter what your own experiences over the years,theres always something that goes against your practises!!Cutting weight to stop mantling,aggression and bad habits?I am really keen to know the outcome!

[Little Joe]

It just goes to show that no matter how long you,ve been in the game,no matter what your own experiences over the years,theres always something that goes against your practises!!Cutting weight to stop mantling,aggression and bad habits?I am really keen to know the outcome!

Given the bird's background up to this point, what would your course of action be Dean?

[Dean]

Given the bird's background up to this point, what would your course of action be Dean?Mate I honestly wouldnt know but I had a male gyr/peregrine with these symptoms a few seasons ago,the reason being my fault,he was taken up early!!He made a fine gamehawk and I just put up with his stupidity,he eventually grew out of it the following season!I certainly dont think reducing his weight would have brought him under control on his lure,but eh......maybe!!:yawinkle:

[Little Joe]

So I designed a brandnew artificial lure by cutting up a cheap glove. I call it "The Squid" (you'll see the resemblance) and there is a patent pending.... will post pictures soon. ;)

Put him up yesterday, and let him climb to about 100 ft, slowed him the lure and let him have it after 2 quick passes. Same protective behaviour on The Squid, without noticing there is no food there. I chucked a few pieces of quail around him, but he was more interested in The Squid and refused them initially. As soon as he realized his mistake he abandoned the lure and jumped to a tidbit nearest to him, mantled over that and swallowed it whole. After tidbit number four he stopped mantling on the ground and his tail was off the ground. He took off again and circled me twice until I started swinging The Squid again. He took it, and immediately let go of it when I tossed another tidbit in front of him. Less mantling this time. He proceeded to fly up at me and landed on the glove where he mantled furiously during the last few bites of his food while I tied the jesses.

Today we had a vicious desert sand storm and flying was impossible.

It seems to me that the system has potential. Even if he just stops mantling on the ground (and I believe he will when he realizes the lure is ungarnished), I can live with a bit of protective behaviour on the fist, because I can manage the situation and look after his tail when he's on the glove.

[Little Joe]

A quick update on progress.

The Squid (ungarnished leather lure) has produced the desired result on the ground. Both mantlers (tiercel and female rednape) has stopped mantling completely on the ground. Result! :lol: They simply dont get any food on the ground. Even kills (baggies in my case) are eaten only after pickup.

I have tried bringing weight down with disastrous consequences. The rednape turned into a bit of a screamer and the tiercel became so sticky that casting off became a fistfight! They are both now fairly high in weight and their behaviour is a lot more acceptable.

Response to the lure has not suffered at all since I stopped garnishing, and this I attribute to laying a good foundation initially and not doing many passes over the first few weeks to even months in the beginning - see lure get lure regime. I also never hide the lure after showing it - this I am convinced leads to birds starting to ignore the lure or at best getting sluggish in their response.

Both birds are now taking the lure, wings tucked in and fly up to the glove when I produce the latter. I started to do a standard bending down pickup lately, as I found they will drop the lure and harrass me for the glove before I am ready. This I dont want.

On the fist I am getting a lot less mantling from the tiercel, and almost no mantling from the rednape. I dont ever take food from the glove and I dont even bring my hand near the food while they are still eating. Lately I have started to offer little pieces from my finger again once they already have a decent crop and I see no aggression if I do this carefully. Any signs of protectiveness and I take my hand away.

Thanks to all for your kind advice - it seems I might be able to keep the tiercels tail intact after the moult. :D

[FalconGriff]

I'm with Dean on this one, drop a birds weight to stop mantling - I don't think so! The bird is protecting his food - my guess is because you have, in his mind, stolen food from him or at least taken some from him? The cure is long but easy! Stop taking food away only put on the lure what you are prepared for him to eat, from nothing to a crop out you take nothing from him. Same with feeding on the fist don't put on the fist what he can't have. At first while he is on food keep you bare hand away from him. every time you need to put your bare hand near him make sure he gets a tiny mouthful so he looks on that hand with pleasure rather than a thief. That means every time. The cure will take a long time as you now have an established behaviour, he sees your hand coming and starts to mantle without any thought on his part. You have to replace this with he sees your hand hand coming and reaches out to take the tiny piece of meat. Do not try it while he is eating or it is counter productive as he will protect the larger piece of meat on the glove rather than want the small piece in your bare hand.

[BigMusket]

I must say guys this has been a great thread to read. Lots of interesting ideas off you and a good result for the birds as well.

[Onyx25]

I've started a thread a while back trying to find out where exactly I went wrong with a captive bred, parent reared tiercel, since he mantled like a maniac. I got some very helpful responses from some experienced members.

I now humbly call on them again, and anyone for that matter to give ideas and advice. This same bird is still mantling like a maniac on the lure and fist and his behaviour is starting to take a feather toll...:evil:

I fly him daily to the lure, sometimes doing a few passes, sometimes not. He is way higher than hunting weight and is in all respects a model bird, except for the mantling. Initially I gave him a bite or two from the lure before casting him off, and stealing it away has caused his behaviour. I have completely stopped giving him anything before he flies since about a month or two ago, but no improvement as yet. I dont let him eat much from the lure, but pick him up quickly and let him eat his whole meal on the fist. I never touch his food or try to take anything, but he's blown up like a mad thing until he swallows the last bit. He always eats like a gannet and is always sticky on the glove. He often looks for more food in the dark after I hooded him. I say again, he's fat as butter.

What am I doing wrong? How do I cure this mantling nonsense, please?

Not what you want to hear but the chances are this is now an ingrained habbit and not alot to do with current handling errors.
You could try not feeding from the lure and just step straight up onto the glove this probably wont stop the mantling but may help with feather damage? I do this alot with bird control birds so they arnt feeding on the floor. Another thing to try may be the other way single flights crop up on lure and step up once fairly full and deceased mantling to break the habit. I would probably just accept it and stop feeding alot on the lure as with bird control you need lots of short flights so it will probably come back anyway.
Only other thing has he been wormed?

[Onyx25]

Have you wormed this bird recently, or at all? When they are wormy they often act as though they are bottomless pits in regard to feeding. Just wondering....

sorry never read this :lol:

[Little Joe]

I'm with Dean on this one, drop a birds weight to stop mantling - I don't think so! The bird is protecting his food - my guess is because you have, in his mind, stolen food from him or at least taken some from him? The cure is long but easy! Stop taking food away only put on the lure what you are prepared for him to eat, from nothing to a crop out you take nothing from him. Same with feeding on the fist don't put on the fist what he can't have. At first while he is on food keep you bare hand away from him. every time you need to put your bare hand near him make sure he gets a tiny mouthful so he looks on that hand with pleasure rather than a thief. That means every time. The cure will take a long time as you now have an established behaviour, he sees your hand coming and starts to mantle without any thought on his part. You have to replace this with he sees your hand hand coming and reaches out to take the tiny piece of meat. Do not try it while he is eating or it is counter productive as he will protect the larger piece of meat on the glove rather than want the small piece in your bare hand.

Makes plenty sense to me. Like we've discussed, a little mantling on the gloves one can manage, but I hope to fix this too in time.