trend of creche rearing

[Moses]

its a bit of a confusion

creche rearer, social imprint and imprints etc etc

above is all the same aint it, the growing trend of creche reared birds still an imprint

how many of u guys own a creche reared bird and what kind of problems if u did get any did u come across a young untrained bird


emma fords books being the bible of falconry, contradicts breeders creche rearing

i quote

"by far the most common is the creche reared imprint, which is the result
of a group of eyasses hand reared together. these hawks are normally hand reared from the egg, having been hatched in an incubator and never replaced with the parents or foster parents. such hawks are likely to scream for food, although some may not( as adrian aka varmint said in one of the posts that he doesnt have that much of a problem). they may also mantle over food, both on the perch when the austringer is within sight and on the fist, they may show a degree of aggression towards the austringer".

whats a novice supposed to do for advice if the book says this and the breeders creche rear their birds



please im just asking for info thats all

book is falconry art and practice pages 101 to 102


thanks

[Ben C]

Wow I never thought I would say that Emma Ford is a little bit wrong, but the characteristics she describes are A) not all present in cody and B) Occur in other methods of rearing and C) is not AT ALL a common method anymore. (but then again I might have done a fair to middling job on Cody :) :) )

Particularly the aggression, cody has never shown aggression towards me and saves it for the field (but then again I have worked really hard to gain his trust and have never 'stolen' food from him in the field).

He still hops up onto the fist and nibbles my ear during the moult, never bating away from me. When out in the field he flies to my glove without any bechin, yes he mantles over his catch but so what? ITS HIS BLOODY CATCH and its never so bad that he doesn't spring from the kill for a chicks leg. Occassionally he has even dragged stuff too me. He doesn't scream constantly and it is a vocalisation more akin to 'cmon lets go fella'. And I've yet to see how high he can go, and I mean really high on the soar, but I hope its impressive. :) :)

Also Moses if you read further she goes into the detail of the pluses of having creche reared hawk, steady, bold, easy to the hood (even at a late stage) etc etc. But it is a difficult type of bird to own because it can easily be tipped from creche to food imprint during training and prior to picking the bird up. She also says it is also a demanding hawk, because it needs to be kept active and flown everyday. It requires a lot more effort on the behalf of a beginner than a PR. But again this is not really a problem if you are 100% commited to your hawk, and you accept that owning a hawk of this calibre is not just a hobby, but a life changing responsibility.

The really important questions though Moses are why this type of rearing alters a hawks behaviour towards the falconer. Why have the breeders chosen this path? Why they become trickier to handle and Why does this have an effect on the hawks field performance? The way in which breeding alters the hawks characteristics is an endlessly fascinating bit of natural history.

However PR, Imprint, Creche.....whatever, they are all super hawks and everyone has there own way. And lets be honest, they all catch us food or provide us with a great, fun day out in the field, which is when all is said and done what its about. :) :) :)

[Jastreb]

I was flying creche reard RT, HH, goss and spars. Also social imprint gos and spar-bouth (creche and PR) was vocalizing for few montjs, and then they stop.
THEY ARE MANTLING ON THE KILL :?: :!: :?:
Like BenC said: ITS HIS BLOODY CATCH and its never so bad that he doesn't spring from the kill for a chicks leg.
I think that gos and spar are very good when they are properly chreched or imprinted.
For RTs and HHs, I think that you don't need to creche them, and I had better expirience with PR RTs and HHs-thats what I have!
I gave my creche male RT to my friend who has female, and they had regulary clutches, but in 2001 and 2002 season creche male had tendency to kill and eat youngsters, so after that we started to take more attention on him and put him out of the aviary on the first sight of agression!
I think you will have lots of fun with creche or social imprint spars and gos-my opinion, I don't want to open post about PR and imprint accipiters!
Cheers Jastreb

[Varmint]

Its funny that Emma Ford only fly's Creche reared HH's at her school then eh? :oops:

FACT: i have suppied her with some and i know she has ordered only creche reared from a friend?????

Moses, this is a fickle topic and one which i feel is of personal preferance, but basically creche reared birds are far steadier, friendlier, need less conditioning by weight and therefore fly at much higher, healthier weights.

Yes they do make noise to start with, but the more you fly and kill with them, the better it gets until eventually ther is little or no noise at all.

Having said all of this, the begginer may prompt other reponses from their birds completley by accident or ignorance?

[Ben C]

Emma Ford buys them from the breeder I got Cody from as well :) :)

[ColdZero]

...

[Jastreb]

Bring chicks near the food, let them alon to finde that food, expose them to lots of strange things-dogs, cars, nois etc.
NEVER BRING FOOD TO THE CHICKS and call as manny falconer as you can, which already did that!

[Moses]

Wow I never thought I would say that Emma Ford is a little bit wrong, but the characteristics she describes are A) not all present in cody and B) Occur in other methods of rearing and C) is not AT ALL a common method anymore. (but then again I might have done a fair to middling job on Cody :) :) )

Particularly the aggression, cody has never shown aggression towards me and saves it for the field (but then again I have worked really hard to gain his trust and have never 'stolen' food from him in the field).

He still hops up onto the fist and nibbles my ear during the moult, never bating away from me. When out in the field he flies to my glove without any bechin, yes he mantles over his catch but so what? ITS HIS BLOODY CATCH and its never so bad that he doesn't spring from the kill for a chicks leg. Occassionally he has even dragged stuff too me. He doesn't scream constantly and it is a vocalisation more akin to 'cmon lets go fella'. And I've yet to see how high he can go, and I mean really high on the soar, but I hope its impressive. :) :)

Also Moses if you read further she goes into the detail of the pluses of having creche reared hawk, steady, bold, easy to the hood (even at a late stage) etc etc. But it is a difficult type of bird to own because it can easily be tipped from creche to food imprint during training and prior to picking the bird up. She also says it is also a demanding hawk, because it needs to be kept active and flown everyday. It requires a lot more effort on the behalf of a beginner than a PR. But again this is not really a problem if you are 100% commited to your hawk, and you accept that owning a hawk of this calibre is not just a hobby, but a life changing responsibility.

The really important questions though Moses are why this type of rearing alters a hawks behaviour towards the falconer. Why have the breeders chosen this path? Why they become trickier to handle and Why does this have an effect on the hawks field performance? The way in which breeding alters the hawks characteristics is an endlessly fascinating bit of natural history.

However PR, Imprint, Creche.....whatever, they are all super hawks and everyone has there own way. And lets be honest, they all catch us food or provide us with a great, fun day out in the field, which is when all is said and done what its about. :) :) :)


ben mate i have to say cody sounds every falconers dream, i read so much about him in your other posts , he sounds friendly as a dog, i recall u said u even play ball with him and he goes and finds it :D sounds awesome mate

how did u start him up , i dont wanna make any mistakes in training coz im a novice i would luv it to train a hawk like u did so it becomes like a pet and a hunter the same time and will be awesome if the bird becomes close and trusts me and when u say u never stolen food from cody do u mean the food u feed him yourself when he flies around or the actual catch, do u let him him the catch first and then take it away

and jastreb thanks bud, i saw your hawks, they seem well and cool and u do start them young your goshawks :) cheers for the advice


adrian thanks for the reply haha man i wouldnt have thought that at all :D thee emma ford :D buys creche reared birds not bad, she should at least tell that in her books instead of writing negative things about it

sounds good to me adrian if its good enuff for ben and u and in this case emma its good enuff for me :)


thanks alot guys

[Ben C]

Moses thanks, but you have me confused with an expert mate! Something I am far from being, I just prepared well and keep in touch with my mentor regularly. I am not sure if how I did it will relate to what you are going to do.

He plays ball but not like a dog (well may be a little, but only when he is bored :) :) :) ) First and foremost my hawk is a working animal. He isn't a pet or a trophy, but a working hawk who happens to be very friendly, there is a slight difference mate :) :) :)

'Stealing from him' means taking his catch (rabbit or pheasant) away before he has calmed down. It also means not giving him enough of a bloody reward to keep him satisfied and motivated. If you carry on doing this (stealing) he will foot you, or refuse to fly properly. I have messed the pick up once or twice and Cody flew like a spoilt child for about three days after wards. It was that obvious I swear he was laughing at my frustration. :) :) :) :)

[Moses]

lol haha nice one that cody rocks :D

how do u know when they calm down mate, when he doesnt mantle is that him calmed down after taking a few bites of his quarry

i luv the sound of it mate, even if he isnt a pet, if i can get a bird like that, problems solved :D

u ever bring him home and just let him sit on your glove or a perch while u are watching tv or let him mix with the family mate

how often do u excercise him during hunting season


cheers bud

[Ben C]

Moses are you completely mad mate :) Are you someone pretend alter ego or ghost of Phillip Glasier??????:) :) :)

Watch TV!!!!!!! He is a hawk for gawds sake :) :) He hunts, he kills, he feeds, he sleeps. He is a hard working animal.

You can't get an animal like that problem solved, it takes a monumental amount of effort you nut case. And as for exercising him during the hunting season..........thats just what he does....he hunts.....thats the exercise.

Are you sitting tight mate........................I think you need to read one or two more books my man :) :) :)

[Moses]

lol haha well put bud, philip glasier i wish :D i had his knowledge

lol i read adrians book and jemimas book i think she is cool only if she was under 30 maybe take her out for a meal :D haha my first book was emma fords one, i like it alot and also adrians was nice, short and simple baby steps type book

just asking mate, i luv reading about peoples stories about their hawks and training methods and try to absorb a bit of everything for the future :D

u sound a cool guy ben :D nice one bud

just that the luggar saker i had for a week she loved it in the house and loved tv :D sit nicely on my glove and used to look around :D as if she understood everything so thought hey sounds a good idea to do the same with a harris and get to know his family and watch action movies with me, me and my best pal the hawk :D

haha

im so sorry ben, i can go off subject and loose my mind sometimes, forgive me

and cheers again :D will be cool to meet u one day bud

[Ben C]

Moses I know mate...I am joking with you too. The internet makes it difficult to tell how people say the things they write mate :) :)

Ask yourself, did the lugger REALLY love it in the house or was she so well trained she didn't say a thing??? Houses are for humans, hawks are for the garden and sky. Just because an animal does something mate :) :) Doesn't means it likes it. I've seen some awful porno, and if that was the case then the chicken certainly was havin a GREAT TIME !!!! :)

[Moses]

lol haha :D nice one

i only thought maybe it may become friendlier and it did,calmed her down , first 2 days she was at it and frightened and when i got her to feed from the glove and then at night sit her on the glove and watch tv thats when she started getting better and trusting me

but im sure , its a wild animal its like a lion trapped in a cage, its a hunter and born to be

i totally agree, thought maybe this is how u did it and made cody a good friend of yours and loyal to u and obediant

cheers and i luv his pic by the way :D him staring into the cam as if he knew what was happening :D haha class mate

[Ben C]

The thing is moses I don't like the idea of obediant, just more along the lines of understanding and appreciating behaviour.....but the rest I understand what your saying mate. Glad you like the pics!! :) :)

[Gozzhawk]

get a room

[Ben C]

**** off expert! :) :)

[Moses]

The thing is moses I don't like the idea of obediant, just more along the lines of understanding and appreciating behaviour.....but the rest I understand what your saying mate. Glad you like the pics!! :) :)



thanks

and dont worry about gozzhawk he just wants a kebab sandwich :D him in the middle taking it both ways :D mmm kebabs :D as homer would say


just joking mate forgive me :D

[Gozzhawk]

just yankin the chankin!! The thing with creche reared in my opinion is it makes hawks more settled around other birds , even of different species. think a lot of people now doing it to save risk in seclusion of bad parenting etc.
why can **** be posted and not ****?

[Ben C]

:) touche mon ame.....Gozz I love you mate.......**** **** **** ****...yep your right :) :) :)