Hot hot heat!!

[Ben C]

I know that the Harris is a desert creature and should be fine with heat. But it is blistering here and Cody has his beak open and is panting. He has access to fresh water and shade, but he is still very hot. I have soaked his chicks in cold water and fed them too him. Is there anything else I should be doing, or should be watching for.

Also he looks as if he has finished moulting, full adult plumage on his chest and legs, is this normal or a bit quick. He has 4 tail feathers to drop, the rest are now fully grown.

[Saker-Clive]

Same here. Kier is lying out sunbathing beak open (it helps cool them down I think).

I regularly spray them when it's hot and give them a good soaking. I use a garden pump sprayer, set it to fine and mist them both. The Saker has only ever taken 1 bath to my knoweledge!!!!!! She doesn't mind a good spraying though.

[ColdZero]

...

[Goldie]

The heat itself shouldn't be a major factor especially if he has the option of shade but try and prevent him being in direct sunlight. A fine spray of water never does any harm but again not whilst in direct sun.
Although creatures of the desert remember that HH in the UK have started to acclimatise a little through the generations hence they don't suffer just as bad from the cold as the first imports and first generation birds did.
DO NOT take that comment as though it would no longer be a problem.

As regards the moult. Yes it would be VERY quick, but as you have said yourself he has 4 tail feathers still to drop so he is a long way from completing his moult

[Saker-Clive]

I have been down with both birds for a while and checked the electronic thermometer, we had a glorious 28c this afternoon (sensor in the shade) but the inside of the enclosure s were about 32c. We've got a nice breeze at the mo. Supposed to be warmer tomorrow.

[OhMyGod]

Benc.

In this heat I would recomend feeding your bird a bit later when it's cooled. Say 7 pm.

[Ben C]

******!!! I just thought about getting fluids into him. Is it like everything else in falconry not that straight forward. Is he going to get hotter digesting the meal?? I bet he bloody well does. ******, ******. I am looking in on him every ten minutes and so far he is happy but panting heavily. I expect that this is normal and natures doing it thing???

[Saker-Clive]

I agree OMG, I tend to feed in the morning, providing they've cast, and again in the evening.
It may help to prevent sour-crop or something like that! I also don't let them feed up too much, so that the crop empties quicker.

[Falconry Equipment International]

Actually I recommend , as does Nick fox and several others to feed 1st thing( & yes I do mean 1st thing, about 4.30-5.00am ) Bop in the moult/ breeding chambers. the reasoning in this is that when they have had their ration they are more like ly to metabolize the food at a more natural rate and have put their crop over well before dark. They are also more likely to be active after woods, and thereby avoid possible foot problems. Also if hawks are in enclosed chambers be careful about spraying them apart from Goldies sage advice, if you are not careful you will drastically increase the humidity factor. I hope this makes sense, but I always find heatwaves like this worrying( what change from a week ago late morning last sat her it was only 8º C!
Also meant to mention I reckon talib is the one for scientific input here :wink:

[BrianM]

whats a "heatwave"

[Ben C]

Ahhh brian me a cody feel for you.............................................no t :) :)

He is looking a bit better now, that is very interesting about the feeding times fellas, thanks.

Right who is going to spill the beans on humidity?? What is the problem and why? I have seen this mentioned before and as we are on the theme of heat its a fair question.

[Saker-Clive]

Respiritory deseases!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[OhMyGod]

"Actually I recommend , as does Nick fox and several others to feed 1st thing( & yes I do mean 1st thing, about 4.30-5.00am "

This simply will not happen for most people on a saturday morning and will probably end up being more like 9am.

Ok, but my falcon if fed at 9 am a good crop will still have food in her crop at 6 pm. therfore if fed at 5am will still have food in the crop untill 2 or 3pm. Which I do not want on excesivly hot days.

For me personally if I feed my bird two meals, say half in am and half in pm she just seems to pick at the second feeding and doesn't get as much food in her in the long run, where as if fed a totally full crop in one go she will eat more per day.

I totally understand your points about perching but my perching is good and I would rather have my bird with a crop for longer in the evening than a little shorter in the heat all day, on hot days like today.

On hot days like today your bird should not need much food at all. On days when it's say 10° and my bird has flown well I may feed 6 or 7 skinned chicks to her and be the same weight. On a day like today I bet If my moulting falcon were to have 1 and a half chicks she would not lose a gram!! In extremely hot countrys like some african countrys and the middle east where it is 45° to 50° a full crop af pigeon would take you a week to get off your peregrine. And they can maintain a steady weight on practically nothing, say one chick where as you would be feeding 7 in the U.K.

Today I have not fed my bird yet and will give a half ration about 8 which will be 2 gizzard loads. so the crop will be empty at 11pm, as tomorrow will be hot aswell. I will do the same tomorrow and hear it is still light at 10:45.

If you are worried about sour crop which you should be when it's like this and you feed a full crop in the heat of the day, it may be best to feed pigeon or quail and not chick, also a half ration will not hurt.

If you are moulting on quality diet Do you fast your birds for a couple of days to make them drop feathers when you feed a full crop of top quality quail or pigeon?

[Ben C]

If you are moulting on quality diet Do you fast your birds for a couple of days to make them drop feathers when you feed a full crop of top quality quail or pigeon?

No I have not been told to, and I have not found a book with this advice in, what about starvation marks? What you say makes sense. Cody has in fact eaten 2 chicks and left the other 2 which I will now remove.

This is a very serious subject and one which is not given full detail and explanation. I feed chick on alternate days because he skins the rats and plucks the quail, so producing a small or no casting.

thanks for all this it is very helpful.

[Saker-Clive]

Is that for me or BenC?

This morning they both had a rat each, (08:15), about 15:00, they both had a chick and a pheasant wing put in. Both have now gone apart from the obvious bones but only Kier (HH) is showing a bulge. Zarbu is empty and will get another chick or mouse in an hour.

Depending on their weight, Zarbu is 2lb. 4 1/2oz today so tomorrow she will be fasted. Kier for some reason this year, has stayed 'low' in weight for his moult. He weighed 1lb. 8oz this morning; at first when I put him down, he went up to 1lb. 13oz. but has come down and stablized!!!! If he leaves his food for more than an hour, I take it out and try again in the evening.

[Ben C]

Ooohhhhh ****!! Now I am showing me weaknesses and feel a bit of a dick. Why do you bother weighing your hawk? I have just fed him what he wants when he wants it, in fact I give him as much as he wants and then remove what is left. I have not bothered weighing him at all (well once actually and he was over 2 kilos). If there is no casting I check his crop by touch and then lift him up on my arm, if he is lighter than yesterday then I give him a bit more food. Is this wrong?? I hope it isn't !!

He has lost all his immature plumage and has only 4 tail feathers left to go! And that is after about, what 3 months (rough estimate not really sure of the exact date). They are all in fine fettle and his bloom is beautiful.

[Saker-Clive]

Keeping the routing going; I don't weigh everyday but usually 3 times a week. I like to know that everything is going well and if for some reason there is a drastic drop or something, I can get them to a vet to be checked out.
It helps with the manning towards the end of the moult.

[OhMyGod]

ss you say your bird has come down and stabilized. What weight would he be if you fed one full crop of pigeon for two days after the fasting day(s). I find with the falcon I have now I can get more food in if I just feed one meal a day.


ben

"No I have not been told to, and I have not found a book with this advice in, what about starvation marks? What you say makes sense. Cody has in fact eaten 2 chicks and left the other 2 which I will now remove"

Is your harris free lofted? why are you going in to remove food in front of your bird? do you let the hawk see you bringing the food as well as taking it away? It's surely best to feed only what the bird can eat in one go.

A peregrine may eat loads of pigeon one day, enough to keep the gut active for 12 hours. Do you think it will need to do the same every day. Birds will fast in the wild during the moult but have no stress marks. I have not had problems with stress marks on birds before (I know they can't always be seen)

[Saker-Clive]

Don't know, never fed pigeon. i usually feed, partridge, pheasant, rabbit, cheap steak, mice, rats, quail and chick.

[Ben C]

Thanks SS :)

OMG:
Nope food is fed via a covered shoot and removed (just today I must add)via distraction. Cody has absolutely no qualms with me removeing the discarded bones and skin of his meals. He is put at the far end of the weathering and I have my back turned to him. He is not protective etc etc etc. I go in everyday to say hello and have a close look at him. He is free lofted but is so well mannered that it is very easy to perform these tasks.

The problem OMG is how much does a hawk eat? How long is a piece of string. The other day he ate a whole quail. Today he ate 2 chicks. It varies OMG. But I am confident in the feeding and covert operation therein. My concern is with the heat and making sure he moults correctly. So should I leave him to drop his weight before feeding him then OMG :) :)

Thanks

Ben

[OhMyGod]

Sorry I meant wild peres

[OhMyGod]

Ben.

The problem OMG is how much does a hawk eat? How long is a piece of string. The other day he ate a whole quail. Today he ate 2 chicks. It varies OMG. But I am confident in the feeding and covert operation therein. My concern is with the heat and making sure he moults correctly. So should I leave him to drop his weight before feeding him then OMG

Sounds like today being hot you wanted to get fluids in so fed a little earlier? perhaps If you fed at the same time as yesterday he would have eaten all the food? As this is what you thought he would eat today by your judgement? it was just a little early?

This year I have had trouble moulting my falcon for the first time. She is last years bird in an aviery where she can not see me approach with food. I have been doing the same as I always do but this pere/saker I have had trouble with the moulting progres.

I have changed my feeding routine to semi skinned chick (2 unskinned and 5 skinned in one sitting). she will eat the lot and when she starts to leave a bit of food I give nothing for 36 hours. Then I feed one whole big crop of quail and the same the next day (MAKING SURE SHE ONLY GETS WHAT SHE WILL EAT IN ONE SITTING) then back to chick (or turkey poults when I can get them) and so on. This has really helped with the moult and speeded it up considerably. I have been ok in years past but this bird has been a bitch to moult.

I wouildn't say you should fast the bird if you think your bird is moulting well and at good pace. but it has helped me this year most deffinately.

I dont believe a bird that has been got into a high weight with this 'one large meal a day' routine will lose much weight in 36 hours before the next feeding in the warm time of year in seclusion.

[Ben C]

Yes, good ,OMG, I can see exactly what your saying.

But more by luck than judgement, Cody is more or less moulted out. His wings are fine, his chest and back superb, we have found feathers everyday and HE looks MEGA. His demeanour has changed as well, he is more excited and active than over the last few months. He is certainly more sociable. I looked at him today and felt a major difference if that doesn't sound a bit pants. :) :) :)

[OhMyGod]

No it doesn't sound pants. If this is your first bird and it's near intermewed I can see exactly where you're coming from. If he has four tail feathers to drop I would say you have quite a while yet before taking him up. My falcon has been in seclusion for 5 months and dropped her last two tail feathers 3 days ago. I am thinking that with this fasting and top quality food routine I can do it in 4 months next year. which will be much better for me.

You have time yet to wait for the moult to finish. May be best to wait until ALL feathers are out the blood before taking him up.

My falcon has only seen me once since the time she has been moulting. I do not let her see me at all. She can see people walking dogs down the bridlepath but can not see the house or me. I do check on her a few times a day I can n ot help myself, and she is looking pretty sexy now. I want to make the moult as fast as possible as I always moult in this secluded independant style. I have no probs picking her up as I go in when it's pitch black and slip a hood on her and leave her for a couple of days before feeding on the fist and pegging out.

But getting back to your original post. best not to have food still in the crop for the 3 hours it takes to digest the first gizzard load on days like today. If you are worried about dehydration you can use your idea of soaking the food in cold water. But you must remember that all frozen food will have less water content than fresh food, and fresh food can somtimes be better encouragment for getting birds to moult or breed.

[MickeyDredd]

I have not bothered weighing him at all (well once actually and he was over 2 kilos).

Ben

Kilos or pounds :?: :wink:

[OutFlying]

BenC,
What weight did your creche reared male killing machine weigh when you flew him ? what was his keel feel like at his best hunting weight ? I seem to remember him being quite small 1-4 ish and now he's over 2-4 - it doesn't need to be so fat to moult. At this obese weight he will become picky on his food and most likely not bother eating his full ration in hot conditions, everyday especially when very hot. A moulting hawk does not need weighing 3 times a week or feeding everyday it might make you feel good but it won't affect the harris one bit.

OF.

[Gaz]

A moulting hawk does not need weighing 3 times a week or feeding everyday
:finga:

[OutFlying]

Gaz,
Please come and weigh my female gos, its in a seclusion aviary and hasn't been weighed for 12 months. :butthead:

Jim.


ps it fed 3 or 4 times a week without any problems

[Gaz]

Dont you go in and weigh it and play with it and tickle its chesty westy then Jim :?: :shock: you should never leave a bird to moult in peace..you should know that :!: ..if you did it right you could be out hunting by July :!: :!:

[OutFlying]

:wink:

[OutFlying]

BenC,
Does your harris have access to a bath with fresh water ? Here's a article for you further education -

http://www.ibr.org.uk/dirv4/page152.html

Yours OF.

[Ben C]

no it has hot hot heat!

[Saker-Clive]

31c at the moment under the shaded part in the garden :razz:

[Ben C]

OF: Thanks for your advice and I will take most on board. But are you seriously saying I wouldn't give my hawk shade and water? Cmon even I am not that stoopid :) :) Yep he is a killing machine, but we are working on the style! He is not obese ya cheeky monkey, how heavy are you chappy? EXACTLY, and I bet you function fine :) :) Without seeing my hawk and watching how he behaves it must be difficult for you to make a proper assessment, that much I understand.

Gaz: Cody does like his chest tickled mate :) :) you should come and see how well behaved he is, perhaps you may learn a thing or two......even from such a dunderhead as myself :) :) :) :)

[OutFlying]

BenC,
When you flew him in the winter, how did his keel feel and what weight was he ( 1-4 ?) You now have him up at 2 kgs (2-4 lb +) - it doesn't need to be this fat, you will only have to take all this weight off again.

OF.

ps Ben, I don't need to see him to base this judgement on, I used your previous posting regarding your hunting weights, obese is directed at his weight now NOT when he was flying. The marks you call starvation marks will not develop just by missing one / two days when in good condition, if you can miss a days feed during the hunting season - then during the moult when the hawk is MUCH HEAVIER :wink: and has a good fat reserve then it won't have an effect.

[Ben C]

OF: I was VERY worried about starvation marks hence feeding him quite a bit :) :). You are right on this front absolutely mate. What do you suggest? Do I bring him down slowly? He was 680 to 700 grammes at a flying weight and his keel was as you would expect, sharp! He has just had a bath so I can't weigh him at the moment.

Thanks fo the help.

[OutFlying]

BenC,
So he flew sharp at 700 grams and you now have him above 2000 grams ? Nearly 3 times the weight - do you think this required ? I reduced his rations by a 1/5 or 1/4 and bring his weight down slowly over a period of weeks - keep feeling the keel and maintain at a weight or at a keel feel that is full rounded by not overly fat.
Hope this helps.

OF.

Did you read the water article ?

[Ben C]

OF: Even though you are a bit sarky, you are a legend mate :) :) I seriously appreciate the help. This is not an area covered in books and personally I was pooing myself about the moult. But then again I am a bit weird like that. Thanks :) :)

In the process of reading it now :)

[OutFlying]

Ben,
Might be sarky but not malicious, and hopefully most of the advice is relevant.

Jim :wink:

[Ben C]

So don't soak the chicks in water then :) :) you could have told me, blimin heck and I thought sunday was for rest, not learning. Good read and one that everyone should know about.

[OutFlying]

That why I stuck it in the thread

[Ben C]

OF: Have you ever seen starvation marks? And how easy is it to get them?

[OutFlying]

I have seen fret marks in a hawks feathers but not sure if it was triggered by food more likely caused by a fright. I've never had a hawk that has been moulted out in a seclusion avairy and never touched ( weighed etc) from Feb 1st till late August come out the moult anything other than feather perfect.

I don't feed them everyday, I placed the food via a chute onto the food ledge - if the food isn't taken after a couple of hours, its removed and the hawk gets no more that day. Next day if the hawk still doesn't eat the full ration, I do the same. Once the ration is eaten completely, I'll maintain this level of food until it starts leaving food again.

OF.

[Ben C]

How do you remove the food without going into the avairy?

I am very serious about cody not being at all bothered about my presence, his feathers look smashing and there are no fret marks at all. So I can't of bothered him at all, can I? Does this sound fair or am I going to regret it in two years time? :)

[OutFlying]

I have a chute which the food can be placed or removed from the avairy without me going in. The food will be left on the food ledge usually.

Ben if your happy with the harris not being affected by your presence, then its not a problem - just don't over feed it to sillly levels.

OF.

[Ben C]

Got it chief!! :) :)

[Mr_Colin]

Thanks for the water article, good read and sound advice.

As this is my first moult as well and pooing myself as Benc is/was I have found the issue of weight fasinating. Maybe you could just check my weights for me, Willow hunts at 2lb 2 and currently is sitting at 2lb 6 1/4. Do you think this is too high, too low or about right?

[Ben C]

Mr C, how are you mate? It is a very funny situation the moult. It's as if people just feed the hawk and forget about it? 'The Moult' is a grey area in terms of advice and guidence in books etc (maybe reading the wrong books mind!). I could phone Jay up, but I'd look a tit if I did that every 20 minutes.

I cannot give you any help regarding your hawk, but are its feathers dropping out and growing back easily? I suppose thats as good an indication as any. :) :)

[Mr_Colin]

Fits and starts really, she started off loosing her downy feathers quite quickly and then stopped for a while, but the new tail feathers are are coming through nicely, but it's very slow. Been told this is because she is a late bird of last year and she might not be ready to moult but not sure is this is true or not.

[Ben C]

Mine is also from a second batch! But apart from 4 tail feathers he looks more or less done. But it is obvious I have it wrong surely? I have a mountain of feathers, but perhaps its because I have fed him loads. He is mainly getting Rat, Quail and DOC's, as much as he wants. I have a sneaky suspicion I have it completely wrong though. But he is a very happy and healthy looking chap which indicates that something is going right (however this is the calm before the storm usually).

[Mr_Colin]

Well if he's seems happy and healthy with what your doing why change it now

[Ben C]

:) :) True MrC but it may be bad for him being a bit on the plump side, so I shall drop his weight a bit. :) :) Bet it slows his last feathers down until December !

The problem also lies in people saying that they don't always fully moult out. This sparks a little voice in my head which causes all sorts of problems and questions. :)

[Ben C]

Right for those who like ****ing themselves at the blundering fool that is me will like this......hold tight...

Mickeydread.....it must have been 2lbs, not kilos!!! I have just weighed him and he is 800 grammes. In my defence I told you I didn't weigh him in the moult!!

On the plus side he is not a fat ****er.

Yes yes......I know you can all smirk and laugh at me now :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Saker-Clive]

As for late birds guys; Kier was hatched October 31, 2005; I was told by the breeder that he wouldn't moult the followng spring! Whilst talking with Martin, used to be head falconer at Eagle Heights, he said if I fed him up for 2 weeks he'd start. Two weeks later, he started :lol: His first moult wasn't fully complete as he had 2 tail feathers which he didn't throw. Last year, one of them still didn't drop, so I'm hoping that it will this time round.

[Ben C]

Cheers SS. Looks like me and you are unique it that we go in a see our hawks more than others :) :)

[Saker-Clive]

I can understand that the birds may get stressed out if handled etc. but only the owner knows what his or her bird is like; some people say their birds are very aggressive and wont tolerate them entering the birds enclosure. We on the other hand, must have birds that are happy for us to be around them, and interact with them. As I've said before, Kier will come and sit on my shoulder and preen my neck and ear, without me having to go and pick him up.

[Ben C]

How was he reared mate? (you have said but I forget so much in my old age!)

[Kevin Massey]

yesterday i hosed over the gravel in the mews...as you know evaporating water cools the air down making it a little more comfortable for her...hardest bit is doing it without stressing her out...

Kev

[Saker-Clive]

Creche reared :razz: :lol:

[Goldie]

Thanks for the water article, good read and sound advice.

As this is my first moult as well and pooing myself as Benc is/was I have found the issue of weight fasinating. Maybe you could just check my weights for me, Willow hunts at 2lb 2 and currently is sitting at 2lb 6 1/4. Do you think this is too high, too low or about right?


Mr C. Your HH will moult out perfectly well at that weight so don't worry about her. Just be sure she is getting a quality diet and not just DOC.

I have a number of birds and don't have a clue what weight they are but i would be very surprised if any of them was more than 25% above their hunting weight.

[Ben C]

Creche reared :razz: :lol:

:D :wink: :D :wink: :mrgreen: :supz: :supz:

[Saker-Clive]

There are peeps on here that have seen my HH and know how well mannered he is; he is also pretty awesome when it comes to doing the biz :lol: admittedly, this last season, I let him down, as I was very much sidetracked with both Zarbu and Loco. This coming season will be like his first.; out twice a day and working hard.

[MickeyDredd]

Right for those who like ****ing themselves at the blundering fool that is me will like this......hold tight...

Mickeydread.....it must have been 2lbs, not kilos!!!

Yes yes......I know you can all smirk and laugh at me now :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Okay :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mr_Colin]

Thanks for the water article, good read and sound advice.

As this is my first moult as well and pooing myself as Benc is/was I have found the issue of weight fasinating. Maybe you could just check my weights for me, Willow hunts at 2lb 2 and currently is sitting at 2lb 6 1/4. Do you think this is too high, too low or about right?


Mr C. Your HH will moult out perfectly well at that weight so don't worry about her. Just be sure she is getting a quality diet and not just DOC.

I have a number of birds and don't have a clue what weight they are but i would be very surprised if any of them was more than 25% above their hunting weight.

Thanks Goldie, that puts my mind at rest. As for diet she gets fed a mixture of DOC(with and without yolk), Quail, Rabbit, Pheasant, Rat, Mice and when I'm feeling really generous some beef from the butcher.

Am I missing any different important food source?

[Saker-Clive]

The only thing to be careful of, is the beef; I feed mine on beef/steak regularly but don't give too much in one go and give casting material as well during the day.
I usually give about 1/2 - 3/4oz chunks at a time, maybe twice in a day, depending on weather, what else is available at that time.

[Goldie]

[
Thanks Goldie, that puts my mind at rest. As for diet she gets fed a mixture of DOC(with and without yolk), Quail, Rabbit, Pheasant, Rat, Mice and when I'm feeling really generous some beef from the butcher.

Am I missing any different important food source?

If you are feeding the above then i really don't see why you would bother with the beef. You are feeding a far better mixed diet than most on this forum. Myself included ! ( I don't feed rats or mice )

[Mr_Colin]

Beef is just something I give her maybe once a month if she's lucky, but not too much.

I have been told that Rat and mice are an important part of the diet, and it helps keep the beak trimmed, or have I been told wrong?

[Varmint]

No Just that rabbit is a lot cheaper and with the exception of two trace elements, fits the same food group and criteria, but then again some folks cant get it!

Your moulting diet sounds perfect to me too! (But watch those yolks in this warm weather?)

[Mr_Colin]

yolks, she only gets yolks once a week and that is in the evening when it has cooled down.

Thanks for the diets advice

[Sokoly]

Actually I recommend , as does Nick fox and several others to feed 1st thing( & yes I do mean 1st thing, about 4.30-5.00am ) Bop in the moult/ breeding chambers. the reasoning in this is that when they have had their ration they are more like ly to metabolize the food at a more natural rate and have put their crop over well before dark. They are also more likely to be active after woods, and thereby avoid possible foot problems. Also if hawks are in enclosed chambers be careful about spraying them apart from Goldies sage advice, if you are not careful you will drastically increase the humidity factor. I hope this makes sense, but I always find heatwaves like this worrying( what change from a week ago late morning last sat her it was only 8º C!
Also meant to mention I reckon talib is the one for scientific input here :wink:
This is very interesting. Where I keep my falcons there are a lot of pigeon keepers and also a wild peregrine pair very near. Pigeon keepers tend to fly the pigeons late as to say 7pm, thinking that it's too late for the peregrine to catch their pigeons. But it's just not like that. I enjoy watching the wild falcon teaching it's offspring every day around 7pm 7.30pm. So feeding late is the topic. If it doesn't bother the wild birds it shouldn't bother mine. I feed them every day at 7 pm. Once a week I give them no food so they can "clean up" their digestive systems. Wild falcons don't catch food every single day in nature.Also it's very good to put some SA-37 in the food so they can cope with the summer heat easily. Also very good aditive is fish oil.