Is it an art or fieldsport

[Liam Hay]

So big question how do u describe Falconry is it an Art or a Fieldsport, or both. Some say we should describe ourselves as an art to avoid the anti's, so what every one elses view i would be interested to know.

[Sprout]

Falconry is a fieldsport by the nature of the hunting but the way it inspires also makes it an art.

[Ben C]

Now this is a MASSIVE QUESTION.


It cannot be art because it's function and purpose does not explain the world in a creative way, to those outside of the subjective experience. However it inspires us to consider deeply how the world about us functions.

A sport requires us to compete, but in falconry what is this with? I only compete with myself. So interestingly we come back to art, in the sense that I inspire myself to compete with my own set of criteria.

That criteria is to use hawking as a way to shed light on the world about me. :) So ultimately hawking is a sporting art in accordance with both the philosophy of art and sport.

Or as Ozzy says.........fffor ffccukks sake Sharon SHARON.....forget it. :) :)

[Darren]

Now this is a MASSIVE QUESTION.


Its cannot be art because it's function and purpose does not explain the world in a creative way to those outside of the subjective experience. However it inspires us to consider deeply how the world about us functions.

A sport requires us to compete, but in falconry what is this with? I only compete with myself. So interestingly we come back to art, in the sense that I inspire myself to compete with my own set of criteria.

That criteris is to use hawking as a way to shed light on the world about me. :) So ultimately hawking is a sporting art in accordance with both the philosophy of art and sport.

What a load of drivel :lol:

[Ben C]

Shall I or not????..................ok maybe I'll let you go this time darren???

But remember......beer is GREAT :) :)

[OutFlying]

Now this is a MASSIVE QUESTION.


It cannot be art because it's function and purpose does not explain the world in a creative way, to those outside of the subjective experience. However it inspires us to consider deeply how the world about us functions.

A sport requires us to compete, but in falconry what is this with? I only compete with myself. So interestingly we come back to art, in the sense that I inspire myself to compete with my own set of criteria.

That criteria is to use hawking as a way to shed light on the world about me. :) So ultimately hawking is a sporting art in accordance with both the philosophy of art and sport.

Or as Ozzy says.........fffor ffccukks sake Sharon SHARON.....forget it. :) :)

You compete against nature, that's one hell of a contest. You match your hawk against a quarry that provides a sporting challenge not a certain result. To get the best out of your hawk and to see what it is fully 100% capable of - IS AN ART.

Yours in competition OF.

[Ben C]

But the real question is if human intervention allows a natural act to happen? If so is it art or not?

[OutFlying]

I look at the mountains (they are not art) they are natural, I paint the same mountains it becomes art.................

Stick that in your zen Buddhist philosophical pipe and smoke it :lol:

[Ben C]

Puff puff..............mmmmmm....a good flavour...........I still say falconry is a sporting art, not an artistic sport :) :)

[OutFlying]

poetry in flight - an art form.

[Ben C]

Define poetry?? Does the hawk understand that what it does is artistic? Does nature exist to make human perception feel artistic? No, because ART is a projection on the world in order to measure its beauty. Art fails because Decartes was wrong! His philosophy is wrong on many levels, but most notably the idea of the sublime. We enter into major problems of language and culture if we begin to define nature as a particular schism of human understanding. And therefore flight as an art form!!

Yes I talk ABSOLUTE ******** MATE I KNOW, but I did study this **** for years, so its a bit silly not to use it at some point. :) :) C'mon you have knocked my socks off loads of times, so at least once for me is fair!!!! :) :) :)

[Liam Hay]

I look at the mountains (they are not art) they are natural, I paint the same mountains it becomes art.................

so a goshawk in the wild is nature, but when u take that gos and train it to do what it does naturally this becomes art. If this is so then trainimg a dog or any other animal must be termed as art?????

[OutFlying]

The flights produced in falconry are not necessarily found in nature, and certainly not witnessed to such an extent - to the hawk and quarry it may not be art but to the spectator (in my eyes) is an art form. If cinema can be art then watching a hawk in flight certainly is.

OF.

ps BenC, I'll not let you have my socks

[OutFlying]

I look at the mountains (they are not art) they are natural, I paint the same mountains it becomes art.................

so a goshawk in the wild is nature, but when u take that gos and train it to do what it does naturally this becomes art. If this is so then trainimg a dog or any other animal must be termed as art?????

PCHay,
Read the whole posting not the end quote with Ben.

Yours OF.

[OutFlying]

If walking down a field with a gos on your glove, waiting for a pointer to locate game, then when on point order the flush and then slip the gos is nature then I'm missing something.

[Ben C]

Good man :)

But is cinema art?? Most of what I see is entertainment? A spectacle set up in order to THRILL the human. A lower more subtle version of porn.
However you touch on a VERY important aspect. The viewer makes the spectacle a work of art. I do believe in certain situations falconry can be an art form, at the very least a sporting artform. But the parameters need to be very strict. Philosophically speaking that is. One of the things is the experience and training of the owner.

I am sure you have seen artistry, but I am also sure I have not. WHY? because I lack the skill needed to witness the balance of all the CORRECT sequence of hunting activity. That can only come from a long time spent studying it and therefore making it MEAN something.

The bottom line is the art comes from hard work not from mearly watching. :) :)

[OutFlying]

BenC,
As I said earlier -

"To get the best out of your hawk and to see what it is fully 100% capable of - IS AN ART."

No you still can't have my socks

OF :D

[Ben C]

Ok......you have described a skill that edges towrds art for those in the know. But how is falconry an art to those who don't understand it?

[OutFlying]

BenC,
Many forms of art don't appeal to the masses it doesn't prevent it being art mealy not appreciated by all - for example that piece of **** by Tracy ???? of the bed with litter thrown on it, displayed at the Tate gallery bought by Saatchi described as art - to me its my sons bedroom.

OF.

Still the proud owner of all his socks.

[Ben C]

Right I like your socks!!!

How do you define art then, and for that matter the question of 'poerty in flight'. You have avoided these fundamental question mate.

Explain how a human being training a hawk to fly at quarry is an art form?? It is not art but skill. They are two different things.

[OutFlying]

How is a skill at training a hawk, different to learning the skill to paint or make a sculpture ? - art to me is an audio or visual stimulus - watching a hawk to its full potential is an art form.

OF.

[Ben C]

Great art refuses to be classified by skill, Tracy Emins bed is a classic example. Skill in terms of sculpting or moulding materials does not make good art. In fact Michaelangelo and Caravaggio used helpers to finish their art and then just signed it.

Great art is a CONCEPT not a skill.

Great falconry is a SKILL not a concept.

[Tim Laycock]

I dont know about the art or sport thing! I look at it like this-
I am a specialised birdwatcher. I dont rely on one just flying past on the off-chance, I take one with me.
While out I try to recreate the kind of spectacle that your average birdwatcher witnesses once in a lifetime.
It entertains me a great deal :D

[Ben C]

I think it is more akin to a craft.....a field craft specific to a particular craftsman. Like OF said, its a skill of manipulation, and time and love and wonder.....maybe poetry on a VERY good day. I see it as a crafting of something from a material. The anti argument will not be beaten by calling it an art. They will be beaten by saying its a craft that supplies food for the table or pest control :) :)

Art on the other hand is ephemeral and can exist from nothing, can mean nothing and can have no substance. Art is by its very nature pretentious. Falconry and hunting is not. Falconry it a simple cause and effect process.

Either way OF has gone to sleep in his socks the ****** :) :)

[Shaun Byrne]

Great art refuses to be classified by skill,
Great art is a CONCEPT not a skill.

Great falconry is a SKILL not a concept.

So how would you classify a "Martial ART".

Surely it is the training of a person, in the SKILLS needed to overcome another person, in fair one to one combat.

So why cant the training of a Bird Of Prey to overcome its quarry be classified in the same simple way?

[Liam Hay]

I knew this would get u going so if u term falconry as an art then surely fox hunting is an art and not a blood or field sport, oh and OF i do read whole postings, but obviously goshawks or other raptors don't chase and catch quarry, u obviously use a dog i do not so what i do is more natural don't presume how i hunt as i merely talking in my terms no one elses.

[Tanith]

Art fails because Decartes was wrong!

"I think ******** therefore I speak ********" :D

[Tim Laycock]

P....M....S....L!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

[Kornie]

I like the idea of it being a Craft. To me that sums it up perfectly as there is art involved and a great deal of skill, but also definately a more practical element to falconry if you get my meaning?

BenC, just out of interest sometimes I see posts from you at say, 2pm on weekdays?? When do you get round to teaching :o :o :o :D
just curious :) :roll:

[Saker-Clive]

ART.as described in a dictionary,.
1) archaic pres 2 sing of BE
2)(n) 1 a skill aquired by experience, study, or observation. ii)(pl) the humanties as contrasted with science, iii) the conscious production of asthetic objects; also works so produced...................................

By trade, I'm a fully skilled cabinet maker............is what I produce skill or art???????????????????????????

[Tim Laycock]

Ben says--"Oh no there on to me!" pmsl :mrgreen:

[Kornie]

You use your skill to produce, what you produce is an object of artistic design. You produce an art.

[OutFlying]

falconry is an art, the result of success is a fieldsport.

[BlackHawke]

well aren't the powers that be in the process of making falconry a world heritage SPORT????

[Liam Hay]

well we have some interesting posts on your own ideas, i think the best way to term it is how u yourself descirbe it, i call Falconry a fieldsport cause thats what i do, i go out in to the field to catch quarry for sport. However i do not say what i do is an art but some may, at the nd of the day we all love the same thing Falconry.

Falconry the greatest gift we all have the pleasure as a part of.

[Ian Wileman]

Falconry is about catching and killing animals that are intended to be put in a casserole. Therefore you are all wrong....Falconry is food prep. or 'Home Economics' you bunch of poetry reading wusses. Especially you Benc you big ole chutney ferret.

[HawkMan]

whats a chutney ferret mr wileman ive never heard it before ya skip rat

[HawkMan]

I think you have a personality dissorder one minute your against and next your m8s ,get some therapy m8

[GDN]

Is falconry an art or a sport or a craft?

I would have to go with sport. At the end of the day we train our birds watch their diet and monitor their weight so that when we put them in the field they are hopefully in the best possible condition so that they can win the race against an oppenent who is in the race of it's life. A race it may to do on a regular basis. The prize is the quarry's life. We are the coach the bird the athlete and the quarry the opponent.

The romantic in me would like to believe it is an art but at the end of the day it is a race between my bird and the quarry. If my bird wins it means the quarry has lost and it will pay the ultimate price. If the quarry wins then respect to it. It has proved itself a worthy opponent and i hope that myself and my bird learn from it so the next time we meet we can win.

I will always try and put my bird in the best possible position and use the best possible tactics i can so that my bird can win the race as easily as possible. After all it is a race in to harms way either for the quarry or the bird or maybe for neither depending on the outcome.

I always have respect for the quarry my opponent. Be it a rabbit, pheasant, hare or anything else i meet in the field

[Ben C]

I much prefer craft. :) :) :)

Art is a load of pretentious nonsense practiced by people who can, if they put their mind to it, waffle and make things out to be far better than they are.......I should know I am guilty as hell when it comes to that. :) :) :)

Personally I have had art exhibitions in england and america and been published in a couple of books, so I understand what contemporary art with a captial A stands for. RUBBISH in the main part.

I feel that falconry is far more purposeful, far more HONEST, far more interesting and far more IMPORTANT than just labelling it an art form. However you can call it what you like as far as I am concerned, just so long as you enjoy it and it dones well. :) :) :) :)

See I sound much less a **** when its a Monday morning and not VERY late on a Saturday!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

PS Kornie: We have no year 11, 10's and the 7's or on a trip to Paris....I also have a few free lessons to do reports, so when I get bored of writing the 164 INDIVIDUAL REPORTS, I sometimes go on the tinternet, is that alright with you ya young scamp :) :) :) :)

[Tim Laycock]

so when I get bored of writing the 164 INDIVIDUAL REPORTS, I sometimes go on the tinternet, is that alright

No you should work like a dog you bloody lazy frigger!! :mrgreen:

[Ben C]

Working in a gold mine, going down down down.......
Working in a gold mine, going down down down.......

Eh oh way eh oh.....
eh oh way eh oh.......

Arrrgh you lazy blaggard get to work!!!!...................Swish, Crack......
:) :)

[Kornie]

BenC, thats cool just wondering lol, had visions of a teacher sitting in front of the computer on the internet whilst the class stares blankly into board waiting, just waiting for something to appear... Hang on a second... they arent visions they're memories!!!!!!!

Many a teacher ive had has actualy written EXACTLY the same comment for every student, you should try this method benc, its quite the lazy way out. :) Just Call them all average! rofl.

[RedtailHawk1975]

I would say for me it is a field sport and a art to get my bird to go at what I want it to and not what she wants to lol. she good really

[Hawkies Not Talkies]

ART.as described in a dictionary,.
1) archaic pres 2 sing of BE
2)(n) 1 a skill aquired by experience, study, or observation. ii)(pl) the humanties as contrasted with science, iii) the conscious production of asthetic objects; also works so produced...................................

By trade, I'm a fully skilled cabinet maker............is what I produce skill or art???????????????????????????

I don,t know Clive, I haven't seen it, it may be sh.....te.:lol::lol::lol:

[Hawkies Not Talkies]

Falconry is the food of life, simple as that.:D:D:D

[Bazzer]

Falconry is first and foremost, an art. The art manifests itself in the form of a field sport. It is a human skill as opposed to nature...it can be nothing other than an art, in my opinion. Or, as I said when my Common Buzzard got me by the thumb and my mate by the beer belly: "we all have to suffer for our art." So therefore, it must be an art.
Bazzer

[RT Alison]

To be successful in falconry, a falconer must develop the skill needed to perceive the subtle nuances and mannerisms of the birds in his/her charge. This is not a skill that can be easily taught. It has to be developed like true art.

When a falconer is moving through the grounds with the bird overhead in a symbiotic manner, it is very much like poetry or ballet when it all comes together perfectly. Poetry and ballet are forms of art.

Leathercraft is not only a craft, but a means of expression. This artform is a fundamental basic of falconry. It is within the eye of the beholder what is and isn't art. Is falconry an artform? Yes... to some. No... to others. Some see it as a craft, an addiction, a disease, a sport, a hobby, an interest, a way to get out of the house and away from the nagging wife or snot nosed yard ape kids. It certainly is a form of entertainment and to some, an occupation.

This is why this sport, art, hobby etc. has prevailed for so many centuries. It delivers to everyone involved, an answer to a specific need and desire. It does this very well and has endured because of it.

[SugezWolf]

It's a science.

Gerry x

[David Rampling]

It is an art for some, a science for others. And a fieldsport for most.

[René]

It's a craft which, in the hands of the gifted, is elevated to an art.

[CornishMan Abroad]

It's a craft which, in the hands of the gifted, is elevated to an art.

Sums it up perfectly, every one can use a pencil and paintbrush but not all are artists, every one can recite the lines of a song but not all can sing!

[Stu Bailey]

So big question how do u describe Falconry is it an Art or a Fieldsport, or both. Some say we should describe ourselves as an art to avoid the anti's, so what every one elses view i would be interested to know.

depends on who's practising...

flying blackbirds with a sparrowhawk or grouse with a peregrine i would class as art..something that no doubt takes time,commitment and skill.

atb..

[Jadey X]

I believe it is a fieldsport, not an art.

Anyone, with a good mentor to teach and guide them (and actually listens to what they are being told) can become a falconer.

You have two standards of falconers-
1. A person who can go out and fly their bird, catching a few bunnys (or whatever quarry is available to you, depending on the bird) and do this every time they go out, flying pretty much the same bird on the same quarry with not alot of change, (obviously showing they know the basics and have listened and learnt what they were being taught)
and
2. A person who who excels at what they do, being able to fly all different BOP on different quarry and have more than one way of doing it. They will try new things and are more likely to be the teacher than the taught. They possess an advanced skill in falconry that others could not grasp.

But would you call tennis an art? anyone can play under the right instrustion, but only a few excel at it. It is the same with any sport.

You would only call something Art if it was something very good. ie-painting. You would not call a drawing by me art as it would be terrible, but you would call one of david ramplings paintings art as they are very good!

The same with ballet, theatre, ect ect. There are no two standards with art, if you excel then it is art, if you are only half good then it is not.
In a sport there are two standards of being capable and then excelling. - As an example, Aston Villa excel at football, and the baggies are maybe bordering capability ;) and dont get me started on the Blues!! hehe :lol:

Atb Jade

[Little Joe]

I dont really know what a field sport is? Rugby is a sport played on a field, right?

Historically falconry is just a hunting technique, but such a complicated one that we now have no choice but to admit our limitations and call it an art. Our fastfood and supermarket culture has unfortunately relegated this survival art to a mere sport. Nowadays we have to play fair. Except for a few cultures in Central Asia and Arabia, the essence of falconry has been lost. Just like the essence of Martial Arts was lost on when it became a spectator sport.

Define falconry... ?

[SugezWolf]

There are no two standards with art, if you excel then it is art, if you are only half good then it is not.
In a sport there are two standards of being capable and then excelling. - As an example, Aston Villa excel at football


Not when Wolves visited they didn't! :lol:

Gerry x

[Jadey X]

Not when Wolves visited they didn't! :lol:

Gerry x


Haha i know!! i didnt see the game but when i heard the score i had a few digs at my step dad when i saw him, he's a big baggies fan and i have to say he hasnt spoke to me much since ;)

I have to say that everybody who chooses to be a part of falconry, does so because they get some enjoyment out of it, otherwise they would not choose to do it, so i dont understand why they need to take the title so seriously. Does it really need a label. A Sport or an Art? Does it really matter? Unless somebody sells what quarry they kill and makes it a job, then falconry is a hobby that people enjoy to do. (and before anybody bites my head off about me calling it a hobby - if you do not do it as a job and you CHOOSE to do it out of personal choice and ENJOYMENT it is in fact a hobby)

When people ask what do you do outside of work, in your own time, then you would say falconry. Not i do a field sport, or i do an art! it really does not matter what label you put on it. You can be passionate about something, but it does not need to be labelled an art just to justify that passion.

Personally, IF i had to give a label, i would say it falls under a field sport, BUT each to their own opinions ay ;)

Atb Jade

[Loch Lomond]

I would suggest it has many faces, and is many things to many people. To the bird, it is an instinct or an acquired skill. To the "true" falconer, it is a craft, learned over a period of time. To the observer, one who appreciates the grace of flight and the craft of the falconer, it is an art. To those that desire to "fill the bag", it is something else. To those that neither have the tradition or passion at heart, it is a means of filling the time. To those against hunting, it is persecution of innocent beings. And to most, it is a passion, sometimes filling a lifetime, sometimes filling what is left of a lifetime.

[SugezWolf]

Haha i know!! i didnt see the game but when i heard the score i had a few digs at my step dad when i saw him, he's a big baggies fan and i have to say he hasnt spoke to me much since ;)


I was referring to the Villa Jade! :lol:

Gerry x

[Bazwalla]

Years ago falconry was undr arts in public libaries,as im sure it has been spoken of on forum,Falconry plays a massive part in our modern language,so it played a big part in day to day life years ago.Watch a dog distinguish between a Pipit and a lark,seehim flush the Lark then watch a cast of merlins fly the lark,it allcomes together.IT CAN BE AN ART but

[Sokoly]

I would definitly not call it a hobbie! and equal my neighbour who also has a hobby of post stemp collecting. :lol:

I live and fly with my birds every day and he sits behand he's PC desk and sets his stemps in some order whenever he has a will for that....

Having one parrot or a fish tank could be a hobby, but yet again I have a fish tank that is a masterpiece of imitating the Amazon Biotope. Wild discusfish, watter quality equals the one they were caught in, mangrowood and species of plants that originate from there. tankmates always identical to those found at the place. Sunlight period, water exchangion and a rainy season in the right period of year....NOW when I see my fishtank I can easily accept that observants and people who seen it say it is an ART.

Falconry by some definitions and books is consideret as an "ART of taking wild quarry with a trained raptor". I would say they called it an art because it was practised by a handfull of people dedicated and mesmerised by BOP's, nowadays is NOT about the head count but the style the raptor uses to persue and catch it's prey.

Sometimes I think we vulgarise and simplify things that have been arround for much longer then we would be on this planet.

Also a "field sport" is a true but very very general notion. Falconry is definitly not a sport for me it is a way of life, it's a passion.

I would say the most artistic moment that explanes it is when an observer see's a person, a trained dog, and a raptor working in perfect harmony ending with a wildgame being caught.

It is not up to us to say, it's how the outside world considers us and our passion.

All the best,

[David Rampling]

It's a craft which, in the hands of the gifted, is elevated to an art.

That hits the nail on the head . However, falconers can practice this sport for many years and yet may never have seen a falconer gifted in the 'art'. And therefore they may doubt the concept.