Peregrines & DNA

[MickeyDredd]

With the de-registration of peregrines in England and Wales and therefore close-ringing now presumably at the discretion of the breeder, do any of the peregrine breeders on here plan to DNA all peregrines they breed going forward as a means of both identification and safeguarding themselves against any allegations of wild-taking of young?

I know that some breeders already keep DNA records but just wondered if this number will increase post-deregistration.

Cheers
Mike

[Barry]

I've wondered about this Mike. Probably a good idea. Just wondering where the best place is to officially 'record' the DNA profile/identity. If there isn't an established 'bank' maybe this is something that could be established.
Barry

[Moritz]

I thought the peregrines still need a defra ring. Plus the big breeders have been doing the ringing themselfs for a few years. So nothing really changes for them beside the fact that they, pay for the rings themselfs. Plus I thought peregrines are still a registerbal species.
But it would be interesting to have a DNA bank, the question is would the falconers be prepared to pay the extra costs for the falcon that would come with this?

Mo

[MickeyDredd]

Mo

I assumed that with de-registration that rings aren't required otherwise why de-registrate?? HH for example aren't registerable so dont require a ring by law.

The angle I'm coming from is that with the peregrine being the protectionists bodies' flagship I would imagine the instances of "visits" or "raids" on peregrine breeders will probably increase going forward and therefore it would be very much in the breeders own interests to be able to prove the source of any young on their premises as the onos of proof will be on the breeder no doubt.

The protectionist were all against deregistration so I'm sure being able to say "I told you so" will be high on their agenda.......

Mike

[Icarus Fell]

I think that Peregrines are being taken off the blue doc system (so to speak) but will still require an A10 and a closed ring a la Common Buzzards
As I understand it breeders are required to purchase unique numbered rings for the young and if the ring is not unique the bird also needs to microchipped.

Back to the topic - How much does an avian DNA test cost?

[MickeyDredd]

Hmmmm, so whats all the fuss about then, the blue doc doesnt currently prove much - presumably absolute proof of breeding is currently tested during visits/raids via DNA anyway and proven or disproven, so where's the threat from de-registration :confused:

I think that Peregrines are being taken off the blue doc system (so to speak) but will still require an A10 and a closed ring a la Common Buzzards
As I understand it breeders are required to purchase unique numbered rings for the young and if the ring is not unique the bird also needs to microchipped.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Animal Health will not supply the rings, its up to the breeder.
All peregrines still have to be close rung AND registered, but you can now register them trough an A-10 rather then a blue doc IF YOU WISH, but you still can get blue docs for peregrines, the only thing is that for someone who wants to use his peregrine commercial he now only need one document as the A-10 and blue doc can be amended in to one.

All other birds that been de registered only needs close ringing if they are to be used for commercial activity's, which I would say almost all of them will be sometime in their life, this means they need both a individual close ring and an A-10, and Animal Health keep all their details on file just like before.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Hmmmm, so whats all the fuss about then, the blue doc doesnt currently prove much - presumably absolute proof of breeding is currently tested during visits/raids via DNA anyway and proven or disproven, so where's the threat from de-registration :confused:

There isnt any Mike, nothing has really changed as all native species that could potentially be taken from the wild still requires registration, while gyrfalcons and hybrids dont need to be registered, but still need to be close rung and have an A-10 (which repeat exactly the same information as the blue doc) if they are to be any use at all....:lol:

[Martyn Paterson]

I thought it was closed ring or microchip? It would seem a bit crazy not to ring??

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I thought it was closed ring or microchip? It would seem a bit crazy not to ring??

I can not see anyone not ringing their birds, but in theory if a gyr/saker is breed and NEVER to be used for any commercial purposes it does not need a ring, or so I have been told by DEFRA, however is not breeding in itself a commercial activity or does it only become so when the bird itself is advertised/offered for sale?

[Icarus Fell]

I think a DNA based database would, in theory, be a good thing. It would be a system based on absolute proof rather than Animal Health taking the word of the breeder on the bird's heritage.
Ultimately though it will all come down to politics and cost, I suppose

[Moritz]

Mo

I assumed that with de-registration that rings aren't required otherwise why de-registrate?? HH for example aren't registerable so dont require a ring by law.

The angle I'm coming from is that with the peregrine being the protectionists bodies' flagship I would imagine the instances of "visits" or "raids" on peregrine breeders will probably increase going forward and therefore it would be very much in the breeders own interests to be able to prove the source of any young on their premises as the onos of proof will be on the breeder no doubt.

The protectionist were all against deregistration so I'm sure being able to say "I told you so" will be high on their agenda.......

Mike

The way I understand it nothing has changed for peregrines. You still need to ring it, still need to tell defra that you have it. Ok the A10 know will have your adresse on top rather than the breeders, but that is it.

Peregrines are still as strongly protected as they were before. I honestly can not see a way how they could be laundered into the system any easier.

Moritz

[MickeyDredd]

Indeed.

There was a reason for this thread and I just wanted it confirmed that they still had to be close-rung.

Thanks to all who contributed.

Mike



Peregrines are still as strongly protected as they were before. I honestly can not see a way how they could be laundered into the system any easier.

Moritz

[Quiver]

still need to tell defra that you have it. Ok the A10 know will have your adresse on top rather than the breeders, but that is it.


Moritz

are you sure that DEFRA need to know you have it?:?:

chris.

[Moritz]

are you sure that DEFRA need to know you have it?:?:

chris.

Yes, if you have read otherwise please let us know where it says so.

Moritz

[Quiver]

Yes, if you have read otherwise please let us know where it says so.

Moritz

so in letting them know you have it will it cost you anything to let them know?

chris.

[Quiver]

Yes, if you have read otherwise please let us know where it says so.

Moritz

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51086&highlight=de-registration

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51086&highlight=de-registration

I have spoke to head of DEFRA, ALL PEREGRINES NEED TO BE REGISTERED WITH THEIR OWNER, no doubt about it at all

[Moritz]

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51086&highlight=de-registration

??? Every single one of the posts states that they still need to be registered. They do not need a blue doc if you have an A10, but the A10 needs to be changed into the new keepers name. That way DEFRA knows you have got the bird. One way or the other they need to know.

Mo

[Quiver]

I have spoke to head of DEFRA, ALL PEREGRINES NEED TO BE REGISTERED WITH THEIR OWNER, no doubt about it at all

??? Every single one of the posts states that they still need to be registered. They do not need a blue doc if you have an A10, but the A10 needs to be changed into the new keepers name. That way DEFRA knows you have got the bird. One way or the other they need to know.

Mo

cheers for this, i better get mine done.:oops:

[LongVVing]

I think DNA is the only real way to determine a birds pedigree/make-up. A10's can have a bird marked down as pure bred even if the bird has a small amount of another species in it.
There is no register like horse studs or kennels club registers like with dogs.
I wonder just how accurate the old blue forms and the A10's are in some cases.

[MickeyDredd]

So what the regulations in that link say is that if you have a peregrine with an article 10 and the bird is permanently marked then you do not need a blue doc or a WLRS ring.

Presumably if the peregrine has an Article 10 and is not permanently marked then it will require a WLRS ring??

i.e. The peregrine must still be permanently marked one way or another, whether by a breeders ring or a WLRS ring.

[LongVVing]

So what the regulations in that link say is that if you have a peregrine with an article 10 and the bird is permanently marked then you do not need a blue doc or a WLRS ring.

Presumably if the peregrine has an Article 10 and is not permanently marked then it will require a WLRS ring??

i.e. The peregrine must still be permanently marked one way or another, whether by a breeders ring or a WLRS ring.

or possibly a microchip as has been the practice for permanently marking un-rung birds?

[MickeyDredd]

Indeed. The point I'm trying to confirm is that if someone stated that peregrines "no longer need to be rung" since deregistration they would be incorrect.

(for rung, read permanently marked.)

or possibly a microchip as has been the practice for permanently marking un-rung birds?

[Moritz]

Indeed. The point I'm trying to confirm is that if someone stated that peregrines "no longer need to be rung" since deregistration they would be incorrect.

(for rung, read permanently marked.)

I believe that they can have only a microchip and no ring if there is a valid reason for that, like ring fell off when small and can not be put back on. But that was the same before.

Mo

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I believe that they can have only a microchip and no ring if there is a valid reason for that, like ring fell off when small and can not be put back on. But that was the same before.

Mo

Normally if a bird need its ring cut off or a ring have fallen off a inspector from Animal Health is sent out to put a open ring on the bird AND you need to microchip this bird, in some cases you might struggle to use the bird for commercial activitys, Animal Health work on a ''case to case'' basis if an A-10 is applied for for this bird.

[MickeyDredd]

This explains the position very well :


http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalhealth/CITES/news/080922-birdregchanges.htm#england

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Another point to be made.
Whether a bird is of a registrable species or not, the thing to remember is that the Bird Registration is for THE UK ONLY.
All bird that are on the appendix 1 in the EU CITES (the same birds who have or used to have to be registered in the UK, including Lanners, Barn owls etc.) still HAVE to have an A-10 to be used commercially, this also includes ANY export of the birds.
This means the birds HAS TO BE close rung, with no exceptions.
The A-10 repeat the exact same information as the UK registration document and has to be on file with DEFRA, so really nothing has changed except that Gyrfalcons and Gyr hybrids does not have to be registered to a specific owner (but needs an A-10), but Peregrines still do.

[MickeyDredd]

Thanks Sara

That was what I thought would be the case, if you need an A10 to export then an A10 can only be attained for a bird which has been permanently marked!

You dont happen to know if the ring requirements for exported birds is mentioned on the Animal Health website anywhere do you as I cant see any mention of it.

Cheers
Mike

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Thanks Sara

That was what I thought would be the case, if you need an A10 to export then an A10 can only be attained for a bird which has been permanently marked!

You dont happen to know if the ring requirements for exported birds is mentioned on the Animal Health website anywhere do you as I cant see any mention of it.

Cheers
Mike


No I dont, sorry, the only thing I know is that the ring numbers HAS TO BE unique, if I have a ring named ''Mark Robb 001" no one else can use the same code and I can only use that ring on one bird, but I can have ''Mark Robb 002'' etc etc

[Ginty]

thats not what i was told by Defra re:A10's



I have spoke to head of DEFRA, ALL PEREGRINES NEED TO BE REGISTERED WITH THEIR OWNER, no doubt about it at all

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

thats not what i was told by Defra re:A10's

Ok let me clarify it, all peregrines needs to be registered with their owner, if they have no A-10 they need a blue doc, if they have an A-10 this will be sufficient as a registration document but you need to notify DEFRA if they change owner, this comes from the head of the bird registration department.

[WhiteTail]

Does this mean Breeders details are wiped from the A10 when a new keeper is listed?

I quite liked the idea of tracing the origin of a bird without a breeders ring

I would like to see a V5 type format that holds prior keeper details & number of keepers

A small bit of history can say alot

[MickeyDredd]

Initial email to Animal Health questioning whether a peregrine must be rung (or permanently marked) in order to be exported from the UK met with the response "it depends where you intend to export it to" !!!!!! This doesn't make sense to me! :rolleyes:

Further email response sent and awaiting clarification.

Thanks Sara

That was what I thought would be the case, if you need an A10 to export then an A10 can only be attained for a bird which has been permanently marked!

[Icarus Fell]

Does this mean Breeders details are wiped from the A10 when a new keeper is listed?

I quite liked the idea of tracing the origin of a bird without a breeders ring

I would like to see a V5 type format that holds prior keeper details & number of keepers

A small bit of history can say alot

That's an interesting idea!

I quite like it.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Initial email to Animal Health questioning whether a peregrine must be rung (or permanently marked) in order to be exported from the UK met with the response "it depends where you intend to export it to" !!!!!! This doesn't make sense to me! :rolleyes:

Further email response sent and awaiting clarification.

The problem is that DEFRA dont know them self what they are doing, and the amount of times I been getting contradicting information from them is unbelievable. If you want to know the laws you should not really speak to any case officers or costumer services, you need to contact the head of the Bird Registration department, or try Peter Barrett, he has his head screwed on his shoulders.
All peregrines need to be regsitered, end of story, whatever applied before still apply now, you cant regsiter without a close rung withuot inspector and microship.
I even have a letter from DEFRA somewhere stating this, but I cant find it now

[Quiver]

thats not what i was told by Defra re:A10's

i was told the same just 5 minutes ago, as long as the bird has a A10, even if its in the breeders name.

chris.

[MickeyDredd]

Just so we are all clear we are singing from the same hymnsheet....

My contention is that :

1/ a UK captive-bred peregrine has to be closed rung and issued with an A10. Registration via the blue document is NOT required since 1/10/2008 (England & Wales).

2/ Where a UK captive-bred peregrine is not fitted with a uniquely marked closed ring then that peregrine MUST be registered (via the blue document) and must be permanently marked (microchip).

Both above points can be seen illustrated on the attached link to the AH website.

Do we all agree on these points? If not please post the point you disagree with and the reasons why.

This explains the position very well :


http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalhealth/CITES/news/080922-birdregchanges.htm#england

The ONLY issue I have not had clarified is whether UK captive-bred peregrines to be exported require to be close-rung (permanently marked).

It is quite important that this issue is clarified.

Cheers
Mike

[Ginty]

Ok let me clarify this for you:

If a peregrine does not have a A10 it has to be registered with the blue doc.

If a peregrine has an A10 with only the breeder name or the ID number (no breeder address), the new owner of the peregrine DOES NOT HAVE TO NOTIFY DEFRA OF THE WHEREABOUTS OF THE PEREGRINE OR HAVE THERE NAME AND ADDRESS ADDED TO THE A10.

If a peregrine has an A10 with the breeders full name and address on the document then the new owner will have to notify defra of the change of ownership. This will be only in very rare cases possibly with wild taken birds and Golden Eagles.

If in doubt the new owner can ring Defra quoting the A10 number and they will check to see if it needs re-registering.

Sara i suggest you take no further notice of the head of bird registration department and consult me. :lol:






Ok let me clarify it, all peregrines needs to be registered with their owner, if they have no A-10 they need a blue doc, if they have an A-10 this will be sufficient as a registration document but you need to notify DEFRA if they change owner, this comes from the head of the bird registration department.

[Andy1]

thats not what i was told by Defra re:A10's

HELLO STEVE ......i was wondering how long it would be before you latched on to this thread...:rolleyes:

[Ginty]

They have to be closed rung for export because they need A10's for the export paperwork and in order to get an A10 the bird has to be rung or microchipped.

Scenario: I breed a peregrine, i stick a ring on it, i cant sell it. So i give it my mate, so i dont need an A10, because no trade has taken place.
This bird will need to be registered with the blue doc or the new owner could themselves apply for an A10 if they want to use it commercially.





Just so we are all clear we are singing from the same hymnsheet....

My contention is that :

1/ a UK captive-bred peregrine has to be closed rung and issued with an A10. Registration via the blue document is NOT required since 1/10/2008 (England & Wales).

2/ Where a UK captive-bred peregrine is not fitted with a uniquely marked closed ring then that peregrine MUST be registered (via the blue document) and must be permanently marked (microchip).

Both above points can be seen illustrated on the attached link to the AH website.

Do we all agree on these points? If not please post the point you disagree with and the reasons why.



The ONLY issue I have not had clarified is whether UK captive-bred peregrines to be exported require to be close-rung (permanently marked).

It is quite important that this issue is clarified.

Cheers
Mike

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Ok let me clarify this for you:

If a peregrine does not have a A10 it has to be registered with the blue doc.

If a peregrine has an A10 with only the breeder name or the ID number (no breeder address), the new owner of the peregrine DOES NOT HAVE TO NOTIFY DEFRA OF THE WHEREABOUTS OF THE PEREGRINE OR HAVE THERE NAME AND ADDRESS ADDED TO THE A10.

If a peregrine has an A10 with the breeders full name and address on the document then the new owner will have to notify defra of the change of ownership. This will be only in very rare cases possibly with wild taken birds and Golden Eagles.

If in doubt the new owner can ring Defra quoting the A10 number and they will check to see if it needs re-registering.

Sara i suggest you take no further notice of the head of bird registration department and consult me. :lol:

from now on I will do, take my word for it :lol:

[MickeyDredd]

Indeed, that is my view as i expressed earlier in the thread. It appears however that a certain bird charity is stating otherwise and once I have both our views confirmed by Animal Health I intend to mention it to them.

Thanks
Mike

They have to be closed rung for export because they need A10's for the export paperwork and in order to get an A10 the bird has to be rung or microchipped.

Scenario: I breed a peregrine, i stick a ring on it, i cant sell it. So i give it my mate, so i dont need an A10, because no trade has taken place.
This bird will need to be registered with the blue doc or the new owner could themselves apply for an A10 if they want to use it commercially.

[MickeyDredd]

Finally received a response from Animal Health today (see below), still awaiting RSPB response to confirm their statement that peregrines for export do not require to be close rung........


Commercial bird exports to the EU need a TRACES Export certificate. The premises from which the birds leave need to be Balai registered and the birds need to be identified by one of the following: Leg Band/Transponder/Microchip. Spain does have its own certificate, but you are required to provide ring numbers for this.

As far as exports to non EU countries are concerned I have looked at certificates for Bahrein, Pakistan, Qatar, South Africa and United Arab Emirates. They all require you obtain an Import Permit before export and Pakistan, South Africa and United Arab Emirates also requires an ID number for the certificate.

It would appear that the majority of exports would require the birds to be close ringed.It is also advisable to contact the destination country yourself to establish if there are any additional requirements.

[Moritz]

so does that mean if I want to take a peregrine to germany I need to be balai registered?

[MickeyDredd]

I dont know about Balai but she does state "commercial" bird exports so presumably you could state that it is non-commercial. I think that if it is your own bird you were taking to fly and return with it then this can just be done with your A10.

If "commercial" export then so long as the premises the bird leaves from is registered then I doubt you would need to be. She did however send me a Balai registration form with her answer.

I'd check with Animal Health if you are proposing to move your bird.

so does that mean if I want to take a peregrine to germany I need to be balai registered?

[Moritz]

I dont know about Balai but she does state "commercial" bird exports so presumably you could state that it is non-commercial. I think that if it is your own bird you were taking to fly and return with it then this can just be done with your A10.

If "commercial" export then so long as the premises the bird leaves from is registered then I doubt you would need to be. She did however send me a Balai registration form with her answer.

I'd check with Animal Health if you are proposing to move your bird.

thanks for the reply,
it was more an out of interest question.

regards

Moritz