Breeders of indigenous species get state grants in the UK ?

[ChrisMews]

Just wondering whether or not breeders of indigenous species get state grants in the UK or any other country for that matter ? Here in CZ ,breeders of Golden Eagles,Sakers, Peregrines and Goshawks get a grant for each bird they breed.It's not much,about 200 pounds a bird but as we all know every little helps.This is not a grant purely for birds for release whatever you do with the birds you get the money.I understood this was European legislation but talking to someone last night made me realize I've never heard of it outside the CZ.

[Hawkmaster]

Well if it is an EU thing them they may have set a president so the UK better watch out:D

[Ben C]

Just wondering whether or not breeders of indigenous species get state grants in the UK or any other country for that matter ? Here in CZ ,breeders of Golden Eagles,Sakers, Peregrines and Goshawks get a grant for each bird they breed.It's not much,about 200 pounds a bird but as we all know every little helps.This is not a grant purely for birds for release whatever you do with the birds you get the money.I understood this was European legislation but talking to someone last night made me realize I've never heard of it outside the CZ.

Thats a terrible idea if they are commercial breeders.......lots of money on top of the prices they already receive.

[BigMusket]

I think the idea is good. But your right about the possible commercialisation. Would be better for purely release programs and have more money available.

[Ben C]

Would be better for purely release programs and have more money available.


Thats logical, but are there any indigenous species at that level of risk? Merlins and/or hobby's maybe???

[Chicquera]

That's one of the saddest comments I've ever read in the two years I've been on this forum !:cry:

Maybe you should read some of the IUCN or CMS policy statements on captive breeding ? This generation of falconers have never had it so good but probably dont even appreciate what they have available to them and there is only one reason for that, some very dedicated people got off their backside 30+ years ago and give their all to develope captive breeding techniques, blood, sweat and tears has gone in to what you have available today and you should apprecaite that and show some respect to the people who have made this situation come about !

I absolutely applaud the Czech authroities for showing their appreciation for what captive breeding achieves and the fact you dont have to be involved in re-introduction programmes in order to have a positive effect on the conservation of wild populations. The only thing that governments haven't been able to understand yet is that if there was a greater access to wild take then it would be possible to maintain a genetically pure stock of captive raptors that could be utilised for re-introduction should the need arise, unfortunately very few captive bred raptors meet this criteria at present.
Maybe there is a glimmer of light at the end of this very long tunnel, after all !

Thats a terrible idea if they are commercial breeders.......lots of money on top of the prices they already receive.

[Kentish Falconry]

Just wondering whether or not breeders of indigenous species get state grants in the UK or any other country for that matter ? Here in CZ ,breeders of Golden Eagles,Sakers, Peregrines and Goshawks get a grant for each bird they breed.It's not much,about 200 pounds a bird but as we all know every little helps.This is not a grant purely for birds for release whatever you do with the birds you get the money.I understood this was European legislation but talking to someone last night made me realize I've never heard of it outside the CZ.

Hi if this is European Legislation do you know what ruling it comes under or better still do you have a link to where this stated.
I have not come across this before and it would be interesting to see what the legislation says
Terry

[Chicquera]

There are hardly any raptors in the EU that meet the IUCN criteria for re-introduction, only one I can think of is the Spanish Imperial Eagle but there's probably one or two more !
Captive breeding in itself is "conservation", it reduces pressure on wild populations that is even accepted by Defra. Just wonder where you guys think these birds we use for falconry would come from if it wasn't for captive breeding !


I think the idea is good. But your right about the possible commercialisation. Would be better for purely release programs and have more money available.

[Kentish Falconry]

That's one of the saddest comments I've ever read in the two years I've been on this forum !:cry:

Maybe you should read some of the IUCN or CMS policy statements on captive breeding ? This generation of falconers have never had it so good but probably dont even appreciate what they have available to them and there is only one reason for that, some very dedicated people got off their backside 30+ years ago and give their all to develope captive breeding techniques, blood, sweat and tears has gone in to what you have available today and you should apprecaite that and show some respect to the people who have made this situation come about !

I absolutely applaud the Czech authroities for showing their appreciation for what captive breeding achieves and the fact you dont have to be involved in re-introduction programmes in order to have a positive effect on the conservation of wild populations. The only thing that governments haven't been able to understand yet is that if there was a greater access to wild take then it would be possible to maintain a genetically pure stock of captive raptors that could be utilised for re-introduction should the need arise, unfortunately very few captive bred raptors meet this criteria at present.
Maybe there is a glimmer of light at the end of this very long tunnel, after all !

There are hardly any raptors in the EU that meet the IUCN criteria for re-introduction, only one I can think of is the Spanish Imperial Eagle but there's probably one or two more !
Captive breeding in itself is "conservation", it reduces pressure on wild populations that is even accepted by Defra. Just wonder where you guys think these birds we use for falconry would come from if it wasn't for captive breeding !

Well said Gary I agree 100% with you but I am not sure too many Falconers would be able to comprehend this.
If only the UK Government would see it in the same way but if they had to give us £200 for each Peregrine we breed I am sure they would also Tax us £250 extra for it :)
Terry

[Chicquera]

Thing is Terry, it's not the £200, it's the significance of it that matters !


Well said Gary I agree 100% with you but I am not sure too many Falconers would be able to comprehend this.
If only the UK Government would see it in the same way but if they had to give us £200 for each Peregrine we breed I am sure they would also Tax us £250 extra for it :)
Terry

[Dean]

Why would the government give £200 per peregrine bred???They are definately not endangered!How abour giving the falconers that buy them an extra £200 towards the cost and equipment!

[Tomkuzma]

Just wondering whether or not breeders of indigenous species get state grants in the UK or any other country for that matter ? Here in CZ ,breeders of Golden Eagles,Sakers, Peregrines and Goshawks get a grant for each bird they breed.It's not much,about 200 pounds a bird but as we all know every little helps.This is not a grant purely for birds for release whatever you do with the birds you get the money.I understood this was European legislation but talking to someone last night made me realize I've never heard of it outside the CZ.

Hi,

Can I ask, who did you talk to in the CR?

I've never heard about it so i would like to know more.

Thanks

Tomkuzma

[Ben C]

That's one of the saddest comments I've ever read in the two years I've been on this forum !:cry:

Maybe you should read some of the IUCN or CMS policy statements on captive breeding ? This generation of falconers have never had it so good but probably dont even appreciate what they have available to them and there is only one reason for that, some very dedicated people got off their backside 30+ years ago and give their all to develope captive breeding techniques, blood, sweat and tears has gone in to what you have available today and you should apprecaite that and show some respect to the people who have made this situation come about !

I absolutely applaud the Czech authroities for showing their appreciation for what captive breeding achieves and the fact you dont have to be involved in re-introduction programmes in order to have a positive effect on the conservation of wild populations. The only thing that governments haven't been able to understand yet is that if there was a greater access to wild take then it would be possible to maintain a genetically pure stock of captive raptors that could be utilised for re-introduction should the need arise, unfortunately very few captive bred raptors meet this criteria at present.
Maybe there is a glimmer of light at the end of this very long tunnel, after all !

Hello,

I am not saying that for re-population some for of government funding would be appreciated. But to just give the breeders of any falcons 200 quid on top of the 300, 400 or 500 they RIGHTFULLY charge regardless if they are sold to a private falconer is a bit mad. Seeing as it would be from my tax.

I appreciate the work done via captive breeders, most definately in the USA, it is not a pop at them. More a stupid idea mooted about in governmental departments. I wonder if this actually took place how it would be enforced and how many 'new backyard' breders pop up.

[Dean]

Hello,

I am not saying that for re-population some for of government funding would be appreciated. But to just give the breeders of any falcons 200 quid regardless if they are sold to a private falconer is a bit mad. Seeing as it would be from my tax.I think so to Ben!Lets give more money away for nothing!

[ChrisMews]

Hi,

Can I ask, who did you talk to in the CR?

I've never heard about it so i would like to know more.

Thanks

Tomkuzma

Krajsky Urad (Department of the enviroment).I actually contacted them to see if I was legible for breeding Lanners but they are not indigenous to CZ so was a no go !!

[Ben C]

Krajsky Urad (Department of the enviroment).I actually contacted them to see if I was legibal for breeding Lanners but they are not indigenous to CZ so was a no go !!

Its interesting that they do it chris. But why? Are the indigenous populations under threat in CZ?

[ChrisMews]

Its interesting that they do it chris. But why? Are the indigenous populations under threat in CZ?

Golden eagles,peregrines and Sakers are under threat but certainly not Goshawks.Why,I actually don't know but I think they want to encourage breeders /falconers to use indigenous birds.

[Ben C]

Golden eagles,peregrines and Sakers are under threat but certainly not Goshawks.Why,I actually don't know but I think they want to encourage breeders /falconers to use indigenous birds.

Do you have wild take?

[ChrisMews]

Do you have wild take?

No !

[ChrisMews]

That's one of the saddest comments I've ever read in the two years I've been on this forum !:cry:

Maybe you should read some of the IUCN or CMS policy statements on captive breeding ? This generation of falconers have never had it so good but probably dont even appreciate what they have available to them and there is only one reason for that, some very dedicated people got off their backside 30+ years ago and give their all to develope captive breeding techniques, blood, sweat and tears has gone in to what you have available today and you should apprecaite that and show some respect to the people who have made this situation come about !

I absolutely applaud the Czech authroities for showing their appreciation for what captive breeding achieves and the fact you dont have to be involved in re-introduction programmes in order to have a positive effect on the conservation of wild populations. The only thing that governments haven't been able to understand yet is that if there was a greater access to wild take then it would be possible to maintain a genetically pure stock of captive raptors that could be utilised for re-introduction should the need arise, unfortunately very few captive bred raptors meet this criteria at present.


Maybe there is a glimmer of light at the end of this very long tunnel, after all !

I agree all for it myself

I gather by peoples comments it's a no go in the UK but are there any other European countries which do the same ?

[Ben C]

No !

This is interesting. Do they have a re-introduction program for indigenous species?

[AvianManagement]

Thats a terrible idea if they are commercial breeders.......lots of money on top of the prices they already receive.

Do you have any idea how much money, time and effort breeders put in to breeding birds ?

[Ben C]

Do you have any idea how much money, time and effort breeders put in to breeding birds ?

ABSOLUTELY I DO. But why do they need a government subsidy for what is a private business.......this is IN THE UK I am refering to not dubai or elsewhere where re-iontroduction of indigenous species might be a must. If we had a shortage of sparrowhawks for example and private breeders where encouraged to help bolster a failing population then of course they should get a subsidy.

[Chicquera]

Maybe you can ask a farmer ?


ABSOLUTELY I DO. But why do they need a government subsidy for what is a private business........

[MickeyDredd]

Ben

Any chance you could breed some hen harriers, you might get a couple of quid for them soon.......;)

ABSOLUTELY I DO. But why do they need a government subsidy for what is a private business.......this is IN THE UK I am refering to not dubai or elsewhere where re-iontroduction of indigenous species might be a must. If we had a shortage of sparrowhawks for example and private breeders where encouraged to help bolster a failing population then of course they should get a subsidy.

[Ben C]

Maybe you can ask a farmer ?

Farmers feed the whole of the country and come under strict guidence from DEFRA. (i don't agree with most of the subsidy's they get either...:lol:)


I think its safe to say that if there is not a re-introduction program, then private breeders would be on a sticky wicket to ask for 200 quid on top of the private sale of a falcon to a falconer who is not intending on re-introducing it.

THIS IS NOT A POP AT BREEDERS....I jusy cannot see how it would work, or for that matter which party would have the balls to suggest giving our taxes to a private run business.

[Ben C]

Ben

Any chance you could breed some hen harriers, you might get a couple of quid for them soon.......;)

Mike: I'd be happy to fund the re-introduction of them....no bother. As I would for any other endangered species.

[ChrisMews]

This is interesting. Do they have a re-introduction program for indigenous species?

I think Peregrines but I don't have any details.

[Gary F]

Why would the government give £200 per peregrine bred???They are definately not endangered!How abour giving the falconers that buy them an extra £200 towards the cost and equipment!

Dean,
normally like your posts, but this one gotta be most load of ******** ive read,if they cant afford the equipment ,shouldnt have the bird,

i dont breed birds,but 2 very good friends do, and ive spoken to a large scale breeder, they dont make a great deal of profit out out of it, not for quite a few years,so think about it ben c, its not lots of money on what they already receive, they might be feeding them birds for 5 years or more, until they produce youngsters,

[Ben C]

Dean,
normally like your posts, but this one gotta be most load of ******** ive read,if they cant afford the equipment ,shouldnt have the bird,

i dont breed birds,but 2 very good friends do, and ive spoken to a large scale breeder, they dont make a great deal of profit out out of it, not for quite a few years,so think about it ben c, its not lots of money on what they already receive, they might be feeding them birds for 5 years or more, until they produce youngsters,


Yes but thats their choice!!!!! I know how hard they work I have been and helped out a few. GOOD LUCK TO THEM, they are skillful and breed great hawks.

But they should not get any more money if they are not re-introducing a species.
You wouldn't give dog breeder a subsidy?

[Moritz]

I do not think that any of the breeders actualy want extra money from the government. But if it was the case would it not just mean that prices for the birds would drop? Is that not the reason why farmers get moeny? to make food cheaper? so it would mean BOP would get cheaper. Not really beneficial I think. It would have been helpfull 30 years ago when the breeders started of and put their own money and work into it. Than the money would have been of great help to animate people to captive breed. now it is not needed. But like Gary said it would be a nice thing as a token, to say thank you. Since captive breeding is a very important tool for conservation.

Mo

[Dan Paradis]

That's one of the saddest comments I've ever read in the two years I've been on this forum !:cry:

Maybe you should read some of the IUCN or CMS policy statements on captive breeding ? This generation of falconers have never had it so good but probably dont even appreciate what they have available to them and there is only one reason for that, some very dedicated people got off their backside 30+ years ago and give their all to develope captive breeding techniques, blood, sweat and tears has gone in to what you have available today and you should apprecaite that and show some respect to the people who have made this situation come about !

I absolutely applaud the Czech authroities for showing their appreciation for what captive breeding achieves and the fact you dont have to be involved in re-introduction programmes in order to have a positive effect on the conservation of wild populations. The only thing that governments haven't been able to understand yet is that if there was a greater access to wild take then it would be possible to maintain a genetically pure stock of captive raptors that could be utilised for re-introduction should the need arise, unfortunately very few captive bred raptors meet this criteria at present.
Maybe there is a glimmer of light at the end of this very long tunnel, after all !

Well said and true

Dan

[Ben C]

Since captive breeding is a very important tool for conservation.

Mo


ABSOLUTELY....but where now in the UK? Give any conservation work by breeders it's cash insentive and/or subsidy. But I cannot understand why, if there is no endangered BOP and they have been taken off the list and all hawks are then sold for commercial and private use why 200 quid should go to anyone?

I would love to hear about commercial breeders that are helping any depleted indigenous stocks in the UK now. I would wholeheartedly support a 200 quid bunk up for the blood sweat and tears.

This is a genuine question: Are there any breedeing non-falconry/non-commercial BOP to help say the hen or marsh harrier? I would love to hear about that. :lol::supz::lol:

Chris: Sorry if this has gone off topic. How many breeders in CZ help in release/conservation programs and how many just breed and take the money?

[HallBeck]

I have to say that i am with Ben C on this one.

Like Ben i understand the work that goes into breeding birds. I run my own business building houses - and believe me, that aint easier either!

The fact that a chosen venture is hard work and requires commitment is no reason to give those involved a subsidy.

It hard to have a comparison with agricultural subsidies because just about every country in the world (except one i believe) financially supports its farmers. The subsidies that UK farmers receive are there to make them competitive on a global market.

Subsidies and grants in the UK (agriculture aside) seem to be mainly used to create situations that are favourable to the UK. I suspect there are grants available to breeders who export - because exporting is very good for the economy. Other grants might be to encourage businesses to move to disadvantaged areas.

However the idea that a breeder deserves a grant because he works hard doesn't stand too much scrutiny!

This is in no way a pop at breeders. I completely agree with the comment earlier regarding breeders being responsible for the wide range of birds available today.

[ChrisMews]

<Chris: Sorry if this has gone off topic. How many breeders in CZ help in release/conservation programs and how many just breed and take the money?>

To be honest I've got no idea but some for sure like myself do.I breed small time but about 30 % of what I breed gets released into the wild,not to mention the work I put into rehab.I don't receive any grants as I don't breed the said birds,yes I could well do with the money but I do it purely for my passion for BOP's.
With regards to those who do it for the money to be honest it can only be positive as some of those birds will be lost and will contribute to wild stocks.
I do however think it's a little different here in that there are far fewer breeders/falconers than in the UK and the breeders I know certainly arnt raking it in by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ben C]

<Chris: Sorry if this has gone off topic. How many breeders in CZ help in release/conservation programs and how many just breed and take the money?>

To be honest I've got no idea but some for sure like myself do.I breed small time but about 30 % of what I breed gets released into the wild,not to mention the work I put into rehab.I don't receive any grants as I don't breed the said birds,yes I could well do with the money but I do it purely for my passion for BOP's.
With regards to those who do it for the money to be honest it can only be positive as some of those birds will be lost and will contribute to wild stocks.
I do however think it's a little different here in that there are far fewer breeders/falconers than in the UK and the breeders I know certainly arnt raking it in by any stretch of the imagination.

Thanks for that. If I was you and were releasing them into the wild I WOULD CLAIM ALL THE CASH AVAILABLE. Its a great thing to participate so long as they don't die. :lol::supz::supz:

I agree it would be a whole different game here in the UK. But if specific breeders registered as having release hawks/falcons or injured wild stock for re-introduction then why should they not claim as well...if indeed a scheme like yours came into play.

With the ones you release, do you have any set rules? Do you work with government scientists and such? If so do you track them? I bet its good to know they have survived and set up homes in the wild. AWESOME.

[ChrisMews]

Thanks for that. If I was you and were releasing them into the wild I WOULD CLAIM ALL THE CASH AVAILABLE. Its a great thing to participate so long as they don't die. :lol::supz::supz:

I agree it would be a whole different game here in the UK. But if specific breeders registered as having release hawks/falcons or injured wild stock for re-introduction then why should they not claim as well...if indeed a scheme like yours came into play.

With the ones you release, do you have any set rules? Do you work with government scientists and such? If so do you track them? I bet its good to know they have survived and set up homes in the wild. AWESOME.

No set rules they just get ringed and released.I do work (voluntary) together with a gov subsidised Raptor Refuge but my role mostly flying/hunting ex injured accipiters and assesing whether or not they are fit for release or to be put down.

[Moritz]

ABSOLUTELY....but where now in the UK? Give any conservation work by breeders it's cash insentive and/or subsidy. But I cannot understand why, if there is no endangered BOP and they have been taken off the list and all hawks are then sold for commercial and private use why 200 quid should go to anyone?

I would love to hear about commercial breeders that are helping any depleted indigenous stocks in the UK now. I would wholeheartedly support a 200 quid bunk up for the blood sweat and tears.

This is a genuine question: Are there any breedeing non-falconry/non-commercial BOP to help say the hen or marsh harrier? I would love to hear about that. :lol::supz::lol:

Chris: Sorry if this has gone off topic. How many breeders in CZ help in release/conservation programs and how many just breed and take the money?

I compleatly agree with you, none of the breeders need it or want it. I think most of the breeders would breed birds that need it, if they were allowed to get the breeding stock. As I am quite sure that there are not enough in captivety for a viable captive population. Also the bodies in charge of these birds do not want to do this, as they think that release from captive breed birds is not as good as release from birds taken from the wild. which shows how much they know.

Mo

[PlantBreeder]

I think it would be fine for the UK if,

There were a percentage hacked back into the wild, as this would help the
feral stock. I would like to see the Gos reintroduced to the UK, after all it
was a native species before they decided to wipe it out for the sake of a
few pheasants.

Many years ago there was a plan to captive breed Kites in order to bolster
the diminishing wild stock, but I understand that the RSPB and others blocked
it.

I don't think the breeders are greedy, they earn every penny, and who knows
that extra £200 might bring the price down. This does not mean that every
clown with a few quid should have a hawk, but it would be fairer to control
this by careful vetting of prospective buyers, rather than through the price.

As I've said before, a fat wallet does not preclude a fat head.

[Moritz]

I think it would be fine for the UK if,

There were a percentage hacked back into the wild, as this would help the
feral stock. I would like to see the Gos reintroduced to the UK, after all it
was a native species before they decided to wipe it out for the sake of a
few pheasants.

Many years ago there was a plan to captive breed Kites in order to bolster
the diminishing wild stock, but I understand that the RSPB and others blocked
it.

I don't think the breeders are greedy, they earn every penny, and who knows
that extra £200 might bring the price down. This does not mean that every
clown with a few quid should have a hawk, but it would be fairer to control
this by careful vetting of prospective buyers, rather than through the price.

As I've said before, a fat wallet does not preclude a fat head.

There are goshawks in the Uk.
The thing with reintroduction is is there the habitat? goshawks need woodland, and the UK does not have a lot of that compared to the continent.

Mo

[Ben C]

There are goshawks in the Uk.
The thing with reintroduction is is there the habitat?

That is a key point for the UK......no habitat and they die. That was why I was asking Chris if he tracked them. Would be interesting to see the success rate.

Its an interesting thread.

[It's Alright Ma]

There are goshawks in the Uk.
The thing with reintroduction is is there the habitat? goshawks need woodland, and the UK does not have a lot of that compared to the continent.

Mo

That's true Mo, but I reckon there is the habitat required for goshawks, at least here in Scotland, and probably elsewhere in Britain too, to some extent. There'd be a few hurdles to get through first tho', if a breed to release scheme was approved, not least amongst the game keepers. Relatively harmless species such as buzzards and kites are still poisoned, so if goshawks were to become more prevalent we'd have to address the problem of illegal killing of bop before a scheme would be really worth while. It's one thing having a few wayward goshawks re-establishing, but another to have a concerted effort to increase numbers.


Johny

[Redeye]

I do not think that any of the breeders actualy want extra money from the government. But if it was the case would it not just mean that prices for the birds would drop?

Exactly, a £500 male german gos would become £300 and as a consequence these cheaper birds would become more disposable. Definetely something falconry could do without.

By all means give a grant or subsidy to dedicated/ proven breeders who could divert resources to less commercially viable species that may be at risk in the wild but we certainly dont need loads of ppl being given money to subsidise the cost of a sporting pastime.

The reason for falling prices is a greater number of birds being bred, this should not be propped up & prices encouraged to fall further by government funding.

[Ben C]

Exactly, a £500 male german gos would become £300 and as a consequence these cheaper birds would become more disposable. Definetely something falconry could do without.

By all means give a grant or subsidy to dedicated/ proven breeders who could divert resources to less commercially viable species that may be at risk in the wild but we certainly dont need loads of ppl being given money to subsidise the cost of a sporting pastime.

The reason for falling prices is a greater number of birds being bred, this should not be propped up & prices encouraged to fall further by government funding.

:supz::supz::supz:

[Redeye]

What next a 'scrappage scheme' to encourage people to trade in HH & RT's and get Peregrines:rolleyes:

[Chicquera]

BRILLIANT IDEA, wish I'd thought of that !!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:


What next a 'scrappage scheme' to encourage people to trade in HH & RT's and get Peregrines:rolleyes:

[Ben C]

BRILLIANT IDEA, wish I'd thought of that !!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

Do we then ship em back? Or sell them to third world countries like our old computers? :lol:

[Chicquera]

Nah, flog 'em off for kitykat, straight in the mincer, job done ! :supz:

Do we then ship em back? Or sell them to third world countries like our old computers? :lol:

[PlantBreeder]

So what is all this about high prices ? Is it some kind of snobbery, like

kids insisting on trainers with designer labels, if so I can see bops

becoming some sort of fashion statement. This cannot be good.

It would be better it breeders only sold to people who had some

degree of training, and possibly sponsored by an experienced

falconer, this way we could regulate matters ourselves, before the

government decide to do it for us.

But back to the question of subsidy, I think that such funds should

go towards conservation of wild and feral bops.

[Ben C]

Nah, flog 'em off for kitykat, straight in the mincer, job done ! :supz:

PMSL PMSL PMSL