Youngest PR bird considered? [Archive]

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 01:54 AM

If you would normally get a bird at 14-16 weeks, what would be the youngest you would consider training? I ask because i will be getting my hawk while its only 11-12 weeks, and then keeping it in a blocked out mews, but would love to start training early to help get her entered. I was thinking about waiting 2-3 weeks, is this enough? I am going to try a training method i read in an article (sort of like this (http://www.onlinefalconry.com/harris.html)). Where there is very little food association except for basic training, almost standard but with no feeding on the fist until she is catching game.

Finnish

10-07-2005, 08:47 AM

getting my hawk while its only 11-12 weeks,

Why are you getting the bird this early????

would love to start training early to help get her entered.

If you don't want a screaming HH then i suggest you leave her for the 16 weeks. And why are you so worried about enter in her. If i were you i would get the obedience with the bird first. Then i would get her fit. There are a lot more things to think about than getting her entered.

Finnish

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 09:34 AM

i am getting a FRT, and it make no difference if i have the bird, or it stays with the breeder. However, i feel i would have a big advantage as i can reduce hert weight slowly over the 2 weeks with no risk of screaming. Yes i would have the hawk very early, but it doesn't mean it will see anyone.

BrianM

10-07-2005, 09:40 AM

Finnish

10-07-2005, 09:40 AM

It does not matter FRT or HH why do you want to get her entered early.

You have years with the bird.

Gaz

10-07-2005, 10:41 AM

You have years with the bird.
Bow to experiance :finga:

Shaun Byrne

10-07-2005, 12:28 PM

CZ, apart from the screaming risk your new bird will probably still have feathers in blood at 11-12 weeks. If you start to cut her weight at this age and she starts bating or crashing around you're going to have a smashed up sorry looking bird.

What are you going to get her entered early on, baby rabbits?

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 01:32 PM

I would actually be handling the bird until it is 14 maybe 15 weeks, the first week would be quail, then i can reduce the weight for1-2 weeks. Where is the risk of screaming? if it still has never seen a human (except for the pickup) theres no food association. Yes i would definitely like to get her entered as soon as possible, what is the problem with this? Is that not the goal of every falconer taking on a new bird? this is a little confusing how you would suggest not to.

LanczSpringer

10-07-2005, 01:44 PM

Its not really sporting to be taking a baby rabbit thats just opened its eyes is it?
And if your after quail are you releasing them on your hunting land? These will be there when the bird is ready!

Beside there wouldnt be much meat on the little rabbits anyway.

If your not planning on touching your new bird for a couple of weeks whats the harm in leaving it in with its parents?
You will do more harm than good taking it away and locking it in seclusion.

There will still be plenty of time to get it entered, dont rush things man!

Finnish

10-07-2005, 01:51 PM

Yes i would definitely like to get her entered as soon as possible,

Why what are you going to gain.

Is that not the goal of every falconer taking on a new bird?

Well getting the bird entered is the last thing on my mind when just getting a new bird. Like i said get the obedience first then start to think about entering the bird.

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 02:08 PM

sorry, i just meant feeding quail.

so what age should hawks be taken from their parents :shock: 12 weeks seems old enough considering many people are already manning at this age. Also, i doubt many breeders keep the birds with the parents that long, when i picked up my HH it was already in seclusion and was from a damn good breeder, as its siblings had already been sold.

If the main argument against is screaming, then that isn't an issue as i explained, what harm will it do? H4wkas point is a good one, which is why i am not touching the bird for another 2 weeks.

Finnish, i want to enter early, (not necessarily at a young age) as its just the way i want to train my hawk, it is not wrong. After extensive manning i want to spend as little time as possible training and getting her on kills, and if they happen to be young bunnies it will still boost her confidence. The article i linked to expalins my intentions.

LanczSpringer

10-07-2005, 02:16 PM

16 weeks is about the right age for the bird to be collected?
But this knowledge is not from experience so I might be completely wrong!

What does everyone else think?

Finnish

10-07-2005, 02:18 PM

RT or a HH 16 weeks.

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 02:19 PM

i agree, but if i got the bird earlier would it not eliminate food association if i slowly dropped the wait prior to manning? Also, if i did almost no feeding on the fist like the article, would 14 weeks not be old enough? If i am wrong i will ask for the bird to be kept longer, but i would prefer my orignal plan.

Finnish

10-07-2005, 02:24 PM

I no three or four HH and RT breeders in my area and they all tell you to collect at 16 weeks old then if you wanted to put the bird in a aiviary for a week on its own that wood be fine.

LanczSpringer

10-07-2005, 02:25 PM

The precursor to any effort to fly a falconry bird is to ensure that you have a bird that is a good candidate for training. The scope and context of this article will focus on specifically the chamber raised Harris hawk. You should obtain a Harris that is no younger than 14 weeks old. [glow=red:9f9101a2b9][highlight=red:9f9101a2b9]Ideally, the raptor will be 4 months old when you receive it[/highlight:9f9101a2b9][/glow:9f9101a2b9]. Beware, most breeders are quite anxious to get rid of hard penned birds, and most of them will attempt to coerce you into taking your bird between 7-12 weeks. DO NOT SUCCUMB to their pressures! If you must pay an additional $50 because of the extra food that the raptor will eat in the chamber so be it; it is worth every penny. Also, be sure that you are ready to start flying the bird upon receipt, otherwise don't get the bird. The bird must be killing prey within a very short length of time. Any idle time it spends with you will foster irrevocable bad habits.

I havent read all the aritcle but the first couple of paragraphs says it all really.

Now 4 months in my book is 16 weeks?

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 02:27 PM

maybe i am just being impatient, but with a bird like a RT taking so long to lose weight, it seemed the best way to do it without any risk of screaming.

Finnish

10-07-2005, 02:27 PM

LanczSpringer nice one. :wink:

Finnish

10-07-2005, 02:28 PM

maybe i am just being impatient, but with a bird like a RT taking so long to lose weight, it seemed the best way to do it without any risk of screaming.

Like i said you have years with the bird. There's no NEED TO RUSH :!:

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 02:31 PM

i have read that article too a long time ago. Many people say NEVER get a bird under 16 weeks, some 12, some even 6 months old. Theres too many opinions in falconry for me to agree with just one, i listen to all opinions from all books etc, then make up my own mind. But as i have ****** all experience i would like to know all the risks.

Adam Barrett

10-07-2005, 02:32 PM

why not concentrate on the rt for a few weeks before trying to handle to new hawks at the same time???

and as finnish said there is no need to rush the harris especially is a slow maturing bird and i think rushing it at such a early stage could in the long run have some negative effects???

:?

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 02:41 PM

i am only getting a FRT, which will be my only bird. I don't see it as rushing, just the best way of reducing the weight, and i don't want to wait longer than necessary. Instead i would like to be manning and training so i can enter her, which is just what i want to do....i think getting an early start is a good idea, its just my opinion.

LanczSpringer

10-07-2005, 02:41 PM

CZ

Thats right, you need to form your own opinions and learn from experience.

But why learn from your own mistakes when other expeinced people that have made them same mistakes before are providing you with advice?

I have no expreince with my own bird but have taken the time to watch and listen to a good number of falconers over the last 18 months along with reading a number of books etc...I can now form my own view based on what I have learnt

Dont take this the wrong way but, if you are basing your training around one little article (no matter how good or bad it is) you should know it pretty well by now.

Why base your training around a little article that you read "a long time ago"

With asking the questions you are doing the right thing, keep asking them, no matter how silly they may seem!

Are you a member of any club, or are there any local falconers that you can go and talk to?

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 02:44 PM

i am not basing it all on one artilce, i just found it summed up my plan pretty well. Just because i am doing it ever so slighhtly different it doesn't mean i am wrong. If you want to get your bird at 16 weeks and then reduce the weight, thats fine. I just don't see the arm in getting it at a younger age and slowly reducing the weight so it is closer to a flying weight when manning begins. Is this such a bad idea i shouldn't of even considered it? thats the opinion i am getting.

LanczSpringer

10-07-2005, 02:50 PM

No

Re read my post, you should be looking at everything, but as i said, why not use other peoples experince to help your new birds transisiton go as smoothly as possible?

get bird at 16 weeks, leave it alone for a week if you wnat to reduce the weight slowly, man up and then look at entering.

I am off to a BBQ now catch you later, remeber this is not a personal attack just trying to help you out!

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 02:51 PM

With asking the questions you are doing the right thing, keep asking them, no matter how silly they may seem!

oh and i can assure you thats never been an issue :lol:

Ian Wileman

10-07-2005, 06:55 PM

Dont need to drop weight to man the bird. Dont need to pick it up till 16 weeks old. Dont need to rush things. Dont need to listen to advice from people who know what they are talking about either. Then again, DO need to find home from screaming Harris hawk half way through the season. Your choice mate. Go your own way. Sometimes it is good to learn by your mistakes (not for your bird), you will never make them again. Good luck. And watch out for those annoying neighbours who moan about your noisy bird.

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 10:48 PM

can you please explain why it would scream...if it has no-one to scream to? I know you don't have to man at flying weight, but when a bird might take 10 days before it will eat would it not make sense to save time? In one way its a little imaptient but to m its just making the best use of time. Who else has tried this, so i can learn from there mistake. Has anyone actually tried this, or is everyone just saying its a bad idea because i am **** at describing.

BrianM

10-07-2005, 10:50 PM

we have all tried to help,, do what you want ,prove us wrong

ColdZero

10-07-2005, 10:52 PM

ok nm, i won't handle the bird or reduce the weight until 16 weeks, but it may need to be in seclusion for a few weeks.

Liam Hay

11-07-2005, 12:23 AM

Right lots of different opinions with not alot of sanity. Cz i will only say this once, i have flown both HH and RT with quite alot of success, if i was getting either of these i would get it at 12 weeks old. AND NO THERE ARE NO FEATHERS IN BLOOD AT THIS AGE. I would start training straight away, u will find that at this age the hawk has not put so much fat on so not much weight reduction is needed. Now on to the weight reduction this wants to be no quicker than quater of an ounce each day, follow this and don't mann the tits of the bird and it will not scream but by the same measure don't feed the bird where it is wethered as this may cause screaming. You are quite right to want to enter her as quick as possible and build that confidence straight away, matching a young hawk to young quarry is a natural process. All i can say is go for it all the HH i have flown have never screamed i trained at 12 weeks old and the same with the redtails M8.

Tim Laycock

11-07-2005, 12:49 AM

CZ. I hope its a small female red or your farking arm will drop off :lol: :rolleyes:

Goldie

11-07-2005, 02:22 AM

maybe i am just being impatient, but with a bird like a RT taking so long to lose weight, it seemed the best way to do it without any risk of screaming.

You may not have to worry too much about a fat weight. A lot of breeders I am in contact with (myself included), are finding that birds are coming out the aviery not so fat as expected due to the heat we have been experiencing and the birds are not eating as much.

ColdZero

11-07-2005, 02:39 AM

thanks for everyones replies. I will ask for the bird to be kept longer, but maystill get it younger than 16 weeks, i think 14 is enough considering the type of training i will be doing.

and yes, she will be a monster :lol:

Shaun Byrne

11-07-2005, 06:53 AM

Right lots of different opinions with not alot of sanity. Cz i will only say this once, i have flown both HH and RT with quite alot of success, if i was getting either of these i would get it at 12 weeks old. AND NO THERE ARE NO FEATHERS IN BLOOD AT THIS AGE. .

And i will only say THIS once.

I have rarely seen a bird taken up for training after 14 weeks with any screaming problems.

I have only trained one male Harris before 14 weeks and he screamed like a banshee.

I have just had a clutch of 2 HH and the Male still has a tail feather half way down at 15 weeks.

So maybe its not as simple as you make it seem, or maybe you have a more superior training system than the rest of us?

ColdZero

11-07-2005, 06:59 AM

did anyone read the article? it basically says not too much feeding on the fist before they are entered, then ONLY feed on the fist. I think this is a good idea if it works, the hawk will eat all kills on the fist as it thinks its the only place to eat, making removing from kills simple. It seems a very good idea if it works, and if it doesn't its not as if theres any damage...

Liam Hay

11-07-2005, 10:06 AM

have only trained one male Harris before 14 weeks and he screamed like a banshee.
down to your training!
I have just had a clutch of 2 HH and the Male still has a tail feather half way down at 15 weeks.
very unusual never heard of that b4 did it damge its feather core, however not likely to happenor maybe you have a more superior training system than the rest of us?
i must have m8 because what your describing is rubbish, any one can come and see how good my harris is and that was trained at 12 weeks likewise withthe rest at the armouries we have trained.

Tim Laycock

11-07-2005, 11:14 AM

Handbags at the ready! :lol:

BrianM

11-07-2005, 12:35 PM

[quote] have only trained one male Harris before 14 weeks and he screamed like a banshee.
down to your training!
I have just had a clutch of 2 HH and the Male still has a tail feather half way down at 15 weeks.
very unusual never heard of that b4 did it damge its feather core, however not likely to happenor maybe you have a more superior training system than the rest of us?
i must have m8 because what your describing is rubbish, any one can come and see how good my harris is and that was trained at 12 weeks likewise withthe rest at the armouries we have trained.[/quote

police brutality...........................lol]

Goldie

11-07-2005, 01:15 PM

i would get it at 12 weeks old. All i can say is go for it all the HH i have flown have never screamed i trained at 12 weeks old and the same with the redtails M8.

Sorry to disagree with you mate. I have no doubt it has been succssful for you but as a general rule of thumb, 12 wks is way too early to pick up a HH.
Everyone is entitled to do what works for them, but people who pick them up at that age are most definately in the minority, and your training and handling technique would have to be absolutely spot on.

To advise a reletavely inexperienced falconer to take one on at 12wks is most likely going to give him uneccessary headaches

Liam Hay

11-07-2005, 03:10 PM

Goldie

11-07-2005, 05:53 PM

To advise a reletavely inexperienced falconer to take one on at 12wks is most likely going to give him uneccessary headaches

Possibly Goldie but i don't see why it should, even the inexperienced after following certain rules should be a ok, CZ has already stated that he is getting a FRT, these aint as social as HH and less likely to sream any way.

I know CZ is getting a Red and as you say, the're not as social, but you did state HH or RT at 12 wks and my comment wasn't necessarily for CZs benefit but to any inexperienced falconers who may be intending to take up their first HH. As for following certain rules, again i quite agree, however it is difficult for beginners to resist getting ahead of themselves in their eagerness. That is when the problems will occur.

Shaun Byrne

11-07-2005, 06:24 PM

**** me, I've just realised after all these years, I dont know what the **** I'm on about.

I bow to your superior knowledge PC Hay!!

Finnish

11-07-2005, 06:36 PM

**** me, I've just realised after all these years, I dont know what the **** I'm on about.

I bow to your superior knowledge PC Hay!!

Thought so :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Liam Hay

11-07-2005, 07:07 PM

**** me, I've just realised after all these years, I dont know what the **** I'm on about.

I bow to your superior knowledge PC Hay!!

its amazing how many have been doing it years and not learnt alot.

FlameHairedFalconer

11-07-2005, 07:08 PM

If you are not planning on touching the hawk for two or more weeks, I'd leave it with its parents.

Otherwise if you must have it on your premises I'd put it in a seclusion aviary, but free lofted. Keeping it bowed will not help develop flight muscles etc and will also blunt talons and any excessive bating (as this is a completely unmanned hawk) may damage legs and feathers.

You should also take into account the trauma of being grabbed and boxed at the breeders, left for two weeks and then the trauma of early manning again. I perfer to try and counter the negative of catching up and jessing with immediate positive association of manning and food. In moderate weather even an aviary fat hawk will normally feed in a few days and you can move quickly forward with more positives, building up the trust. By giving her two negatives in such a short time, this may prolong the manning and trust building period.

If you must pull her out and then leave her, I suggest you dont let her see you at the breeders, or when she is jessed and bowed out.

FHF

Shaun Byrne

11-07-2005, 07:17 PM

Liam Hay

11-07-2005, 07:18 PM

but you did state HH or RT at 12 wks and my comment wasn't necessarily for CZs benefit but to any inexperienced falconers who may be intending to take up their first HH. As for following certain rules, again i quite agree, however it is difficult for beginners to resist getting ahead of themselves in their eagerness. That is when the problems will occur.

Goldie a friend of mine started with his first bird last year a female HH, he got the bird after my advice at 12 weeks old. Ten days from out the aviary she was flying free, going on to 3 weeks she was entered on a young rabbit nothing classic but entered nether the less, now all year not one scraem from her, the bird flew @ 1'15 and finished the year on about 30 rabbits and a couple of pheseants now for a first attempt by a complete novice thats superb m8. This is y i'd say 12 weeks, even a 16 week bird could scream if u train it bad enough. There is no hard and fast rule but if CZ gets the bird and trys all these silly antics of seclusion, tethered perhaps manning he is gonna have problems he is far better of trainig straight away.

_________________

Renton

11-07-2005, 07:35 PM

Ten days from out the aviary she was flying free, going on to 3 weeks she was entered on a young rabbit nothing classic but entered nether the less, now all year not one scraem from her, the bird flew @ 1'15 and finished the year on about 30 rabbits and a couple of pheseants now for a first attempt by a complete novice thats superb m8.

Brilliant work! However, every bird/dog/horse, or whatever, under training is an individual, they are not automatons and what works for one may not necessarily give the same results if exactly the same training methods are applied to another.

Ian Wileman

11-07-2005, 09:38 PM

Possibly.

That one word is enough for me. Take the bird at twelve weeks CZ and it is possible that an inexperienced (and IMO, an experienced) falconer may (another good word to use when you are not certain) get headaches! Want headaches CZ? Or do you want to exercise a little caution and get the bird a couple of weeks later. I mean, if you are serious about this you are going to have the bird for many many years to come. Does 30 days make that much of a difference? Really? Are you sure?

ColdZero

11-07-2005, 09:50 PM

i am staying quiet and thinking...its much better to see others with experience debate it, i just end up going round in circles. So far i am leaning towards getting it slightly earlier than most suggest and manning from the start. If this is not possible my only other option is to seclude the hawk myself, which adds sttress but like i said, it may be unavoidable.

OutFlying

11-07-2005, 09:51 PM

an extra 2 weeks will not compensate for poor techniques or neither will 14 weeks guarantee a quiet hawk. If you plan to leave the hawk for 2 weeks before training commences CZ, its better off left where it is. I think most screaming develops when excessive manning and training are carried out without entering the hawk soon enough.

Of.

Liam Hay

11-07-2005, 10:11 PM

CZ i have to say that whatever your going to do, do one or the other if u get it at 12 weeks m8 train it straight away and have confidence from the outset, or wait till 16 weeks and still have confidence either way i would not try anything different in between u will ask for problems, getting a frt i think screaming is the least of yours worries and aggresion is!

FlameHairedFalconer

11-07-2005, 10:43 PM

Personally (and it appears to be for CZ too) screaming is not the worst you can end up with. I have had hawks that have screamed like banshees, but have been a delight to fly (silent) hunt (male harris flying at 1lb 4oz catching cock pheasant) and handle. Equally I have had silent hawks that were horrible. Every hawk is an individual and there is an element of both nature and nurture as to what you get. But I would be more concerned about aggression in a FRT than screaming.

Dont get her and stick her in an aviary CZ - that way aggression lies....there are certain things that even the stupidest of hawks will remember....and you too when she slams into the side of your head instead of into the bunny you have just flushed.

Liam Hay

11-07-2005, 11:37 PM

But I would be more concerned about aggression in a FRT than screaming.

Dont get her and stick her in an aviary CZ - that way aggression lies....there are certain things that even the stupidest of hawks will remember....and you too when she slams into the side of your head instead of into the bunny you have just flushed.

_________________

so true and not one other mentions this factor!!!!

Tim Laycock

12-07-2005, 12:24 AM

Dont get her and stick her in an aviary CZ - that way aggression lies

Because fear leads to anger!-Anger leads to hate! and hate [glow=red:8eb7a51cf8]leads to the dark side!!![/glow:8eb7a51cf8] :twisted: :mrgreen:

Ben C

12-07-2005, 08:09 AM

On the 'Star Wars' Analogy.........stick with what your Jedi Mentor says and the path to perfection will be yours.

Tim Laycock

12-07-2005, 09:43 AM

Yes ,Young Parawan! rpmsl :lol:

Liam Hay

12-07-2005, 09:49 AM

Parawan its padawan m8

Ben C

12-07-2005, 02:51 PM

Not if BB has an oriental streak :)

FlameHairedFalconer

12-07-2005, 06:53 PM

Dont get her and stick her in an aviary CZ - that way aggression lies

Because fear leads to anger!-Anger leads to hate! and hate [glow=red:0c938a9d6b]leads to the dark side!!![/glow:0c938a9d6b] :twisted: :mrgreen:

pmsl!! :D