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Ben C
14-07-2005, 04:43 PM
I have just read this article and am quite amazed that a RT has bred with a Harris and produced offspring suitable for hunting.

What other bizarre crosses have people heard about and what would they be like in the field.

What would it be called?

Afshimo
14-07-2005, 04:48 PM
lol, my fav the fru-tail (ferruginouse x red tail). Someone on the forum should buy one an do some seriouse hunting. I'd buy the male but I dont think his owner would sell him lol. Flying around 2lb 5, very aerobatic, smart, agile and obidient birds. Scatty when you first train them and preferable to be a one person bird with lots of manning, attention and just general messing. Love to sun themselves!

There's a pic of a harris/ferrug sumwhere, Anton had one, great birds from the sounds of it lol.

Ben C
14-07-2005, 04:51 PM
I always thought Harris Hawks were brave.......but humping a ferrug is a bit much for me. :)

Finnish
14-07-2005, 04:51 PM
I no someone who breed a Gos/Harris it lived for a couple of days the sadly died.

OutFlying
14-07-2005, 04:53 PM
I no someone who breed a Gos/Harris it lived for a couple of days the sadly died.

Why slow down a gos ???????????????????????????????

Finnish
14-07-2005, 04:53 PM
:lol: :lol:

Finnish
14-07-2005, 04:55 PM
It was Rob K who breed the bird put Gos semen into his HH and Chris B who hacted it.

Tim Laycock
14-07-2005, 04:57 PM
Because it would be a travesty!

(some people are sick like that) :roll: :lol:

OutFlying
14-07-2005, 04:58 PM
Trying to find information on spar / gos hybred. No I don't want one but I am interested to find out how they performed compared to either parent hawk. I think the Germans have bred them.

OF.

Tim Laycock
14-07-2005, 05:02 PM
Now this interests me very much.
At the very least the birds are both of the same genus.

Finnish
14-07-2005, 05:05 PM
I would like to find out more info on that as well Jim. I take it no one in the UK has got one.

OutFlying
14-07-2005, 05:07 PM
I not heard of anyone flying one but you never know......... maybe someone will enlighten us :roll:

Ben C
14-07-2005, 05:07 PM
I was heading in this direction...........:) How come I knew you two would swing it round this way???

Can't say I approve of the gos Harris cross, a bit dodgy that one. However they might benefit from a bit of brains with their brawn :) :)

OutFlying
14-07-2005, 05:09 PM
If it has time to think - its not flying fast enough :lol:

Ben C
14-07-2005, 05:15 PM
Like it :)

Moritz might know.

BrianM
14-07-2005, 05:19 PM
the one anton had for sale was a monster,,,

Tim Laycock
14-07-2005, 05:29 PM
If it has time to think - its not flying fast enough
:prayer:
Indeed!!!

Bird_Dog
14-07-2005, 06:23 PM
A few years ago, I saw a Harris/Cooper's hybrid at the Texas field meet. It was an immature bird with mottled plumage and a long tail. Never saw it fly, but I don't think it turned out to be a good gamehawk. Funny how those bird seem to disappear...

-- BIRD_DOG

Jiff
14-07-2005, 08:11 PM
brian m, has some red tail harris' crosses for sale may be he can give some info on theire performances, i saw a picture on (i think) yorkshire falconry site a harris with huge feet.

BrianM
14-07-2005, 08:12 PM
sorry guys it was just an advert in the cage and aviary that i posted on this thread

GDN
14-07-2005, 10:37 PM
Sorry guys this thread i find rather disturbing.

Can somebody please give me a good argument for creating a hybrid. The HH is a great bird in it's own right as is the RT or Gos. Why should we change them. You might say "but you gain this" but at the same time you loose something else. You only ever hear about the benefits. What happens when it goes wrong.

God or evolution has spent the last coupe of hundred thousand years developing these birds to where they are today. What gives us the right to change them. Because we can or because we want something different to say look what i have got and i am the only 1 breeding them. Load of ****.

Leave them alone. If it were a dog it would be known as a mongrel.

Sorry not a big fan of hybrids and I am not impressed by them.

Coedhirion
14-07-2005, 10:57 PM
Think the Harris x Redtail were bred abroad this year and they were over 1,000 each. If you get the bad bits of each bird put together heaven help the owner, sure won't be spending my money on one (even if I had it)
Some one I know has just bought a Redkite from abroad, gather they are reconed to be almost impossible to fly too. Tho I'm sure some one on here will say they know of a smasher !!!!!!!

Jiff
14-07-2005, 11:03 PM
i've had some excerlent lerchers that could be termed mongrels, however they were excerlent dogs, i agree that with my limmited knowledge of B.O.P i can see no excuse for experimrntation with the mentioned species but experimentation has been on-going with various falcon breeds has it not there's a host of falcon hybrids, why do we do anything! because if you don't you'll never know it's a quest for the best.

Gaz
14-07-2005, 11:20 PM
Funny how those bird seem to disappear
Yes....

Tim Laycock
14-07-2005, 11:37 PM
Leave them alone. If it were a dog it would be known as a mongrel.

Im no lover of hybrids myself but this is a very blinkered statement!

How do you think the pedigree breeds of today were arrived at?
Do you think that they were always this way? crafted by evolution??
If this is your belief I think that you will find yourself mistaken :|

Ben C
15-07-2005, 07:02 AM
As long as the hybrid can mate itself it falls into the laws of evolution. Not that many people use hybrids to mate anyway. Even my Harris ain't gonna get the chance, and he is not a hybrid.

However blindly experimenting for the sake of it is a bit silly really, particularly if your not a 'proffessional' breeder. The example I gave at the start happened 'naturally'. Apparently the RT broke into the MHH mews and rutted it silly. They have stayed together for a few years now, so its a bit sad to seperate em.

MickeyDredd
15-07-2005, 08:56 AM
......but humping a ferrug is a bit much for me. :)

I should think so too :shock:

Tim Laycock
15-07-2005, 09:37 AM
I managed to keep that one to myself :lol:

MickeyDredd
15-07-2005, 11:16 AM
Sorry, I simply could not resist this one :lol:

its a bit like the guy that confessed to his mate that he sha**ed dogs.

His mate said "that's disgusting, how low can you get!"

"A daschund" :lol:

Ben C
15-07-2005, 12:01 PM
Well you'd be amazed at how many lines people miss........I can always rely on BB, but thanks mickey!!

This reminds me of a true story..............A bloke was put in charge of the wedding video, and the groom gave him the camera and tape. He filmed the whole thing happily and then sent the tape to be watched by the family after the event.

Unfortunately the groom was a total scrote and he forgot the wipe the footage of him repeatedly penetrating the neighbours dog!!! He was later done for gross sexual encounters or something.

Another one was a guy wanted a pagan wedding and asked his mate to organise it. The ceremony involved running through fire, being chased naked through a forest, then being strapped to a tree and beaten with sticks..............turns out his mate just made the whole thing up for a laugh :) :) BRILLIANT

The Caveman
16-06-2010, 11:09 PM
hiya could u possibly direct me to the article u read on harris x redtail? not much available about them,thanks very much!

Fenlands Rescue
17-06-2010, 03:18 AM
hiya could u possibly direct me to the article u read on harris x redtail? not much available about them,thanks very much!

Sean this thread was last posted on prior to you 5 years ago.
Try pming Ben Crane he may still know where to find it.
George

Chrisy
17-06-2010, 03:21 AM
Why slow down a gos ???????????????????????????????
hey you could end up giving the gos more brain power lol

ZXBravo
25-06-2010, 08:36 AM
Why slow down a gos ???????????????????????????????

Is it slowing down a Gos or making a Harris hawk dumber???

Robert J Penney
25-06-2010, 09:13 AM
hey you could end up giving the gos more brain power lol

Is it slowing down a Gos or making a Harris hawk dumber???

Well ive seen some pretty stupid Harris hawks , but the supposed lack of intelligence on the Gos is part of what makes it an awesome hunting bird as opposed to the "clever " Harris`.
A harris might think about things more(which can cause hesitance) and may well recognise the advantages of hunting in groups (which to me usually creates a less sporting flight) amongst other things where a "dumb" Gos will react on visual stimulance and instinct alone , which to me makes a better direct and aggressive hunter !!

PlantBreeder
25-06-2010, 10:53 AM
It seems to me that many people fall into the trap of thinking that a hybrid is some kind of 'identikit' bird, a mix and match of the parents. As a consequence they make comparisons that are not always appropriate.

I think that the best way to view it is like mixing paint, add blue to yellow and you have neither, you have a whole new colour, green.

Perhaps if we were to evaluate the various hybrids upon their individual characteristics, and forget about prejudicial preconceptions, you may better understand the bird.

Well, for what it is worth, that is my opinion, anyway.

SSL
25-06-2010, 11:29 AM
hey you could end up giving the gos more brain power lol

They dont need it...

Stu Bailey
25-06-2010, 11:31 AM
They dont need it...

:supz: nature of the beast

Sean White
25-06-2010, 11:34 AM
Perhaps if we were to evaluate the various hybrids upon their individual characteristics, and forget about prejudicial preconceptions, you may better understand the bird.

Well, for what it is worth, that is my opinion, anyway.

A valid opinion too Tim.

Of those those that dismiss and ridicule hybrids... I question is thier theory based on personel experience or heresay ?

RedtailHawk1
25-06-2010, 12:29 PM
Is it slowing down a Gos or making a Harris hawk dumber???

PMSL:lol:

PlantBreeder
25-06-2010, 02:18 PM
Seriously, all this chit chat about smarter this, or slower that, what makes you imagine you can predict what any would be like.

If you bred them, trained them, flew them, and assessed them on their individual merits, then there would be no guesswork. Although it would take several birds, and many years before any valid conclusions could be made.

O.K., you can expect 2 feet, 2 wings, 2 eyes, a beak, a tail, and a few feathers, but beyond that you simply do not know.

To criticize when you know nothing of the cross is very short sighted.

Pearl
25-06-2010, 02:47 PM
anyone intrested


http://www.birdtrader.co.uk/birds/birds-of-prey-for-sale/yorkshire/harris-x-redtail/BT139566

Griffo30
25-06-2010, 02:49 PM
Sorry guys this thread i find rather disturbing.

Can somebody please give me a good argument for creating a hybrid. The HH is a great bird in it's own right as is the RT or Gos. Why should we change them. You might say "but you gain this" but at the same time you loose something else. You only ever hear about the benefits. What happens when it goes wrong.

God or evolution has spent the last coupe of hundred thousand years developing these birds to where they are today. What gives us the right to change them. Because we can or because we want something different to say look what i have got and i am the only 1 breeding them. Load of ****.

Leave them alone. If it were a dog it would be known as a mongrel.

Sorry not a big fan of hybrids and I am not impressed by them.

in the lurcher world I think good breeding has done some x's like saluki greyhounds the biggest favour and now they are seen as the ultimate hare dog
And they didin't ( as a cross ) have thousands of years of evolution? I think it could create something worthwhile but As with anything you get the nob aspect trying to breed whacky x breeds just to say they've done it! I personally think a spar x gos would be something special on feather

Seriously, all this chit chat about smarter this, or slower that, what makes you imagine you can predict what any would be like.

If you bred them, trained them, flew them, and assessed them on their individual merits, then there would be no guesswork. Although it would take several birds, and many years before any valid conclusions could be made.

O.K., you can expect 2 feet, 2 wings, 2 eyes, a beak, a tail, and a few feathers, but beyond that you simply do not know.

To criticize when you know nothing of the cross is very short sighted.

After reading your reply the thought that if you create a monster you have to be responsible for it? How many of the x breeds will be passed on after they haven't turned out to be the holy Grail and also the I have no doubt Alot of these x's would attract the wannabe's and not the serious falconer's who would
Get any potential out of the bird, chees griffo

Miliscer
25-06-2010, 03:43 PM
As far as I know the hybrids are infertile? - someone will correct me if I am wrong - but that is good reason, if it is true -there is then no chance of an escaped one breeding with any native species.

As it stands I have no interest in flying one, but each to their own.

If you look at dogs as an example - they are all hybrids as such, but hundreds of years of careful breeding (and some not so!) has produced the various breeds that suit our purposes - I personally don't see any problem with hybrids, be it hawks or falcons.

Mike

PlantBreeder
25-06-2010, 04:26 PM
As far as I know the hybrids are infertile? - someone will correct me if I am wrong - but that is good reason, if it is true -there is then no chance of an escaped one breeding with any native species.

As it stands I have no interest in flying one, but each to their own.

If you look at dogs as an example - they are all hybrids as such, but hundreds of years of careful breeding (and some not so!) has produced the various breeds that suit our purposes - I personally don't see any problem with hybrids, be it hawks or falcons. Mike

Exactly so Mike, in fact some dog breeds are less than 100 years old.

I'm sorry GDN, I can't subscribe to your opinion, it goes against all scientific training.
Blind faith is the final resort for those too lazy to learn the truth.

Yes Griffo, of course you are responsible ............ but isn't that true of any animal you might breed ? The point of my remark was that beyond those physical aspects, it is all just a matter of speculation.

WhiteTail
25-06-2010, 04:36 PM
I just bred a hybrid quail that grows to full size in 4 weeks & lays 300+ eggs a year.

Any objections?..
(note: only accepted from folks who have never used quail as animal feed!)

Griffo30
25-06-2010, 06:46 PM
PMSL:lol:

Exactly so Mike, in fact some dog breeds are less than 100 years old.

I'm sorry GDN, I can't subscribe to your opinion, it goes against all scientific training.
Blind faith is the final resort for those too lazy to learn the truth.

Yes Griffo, of course you are responsible ............ but isn't that true of any animal you might breed ? The point of my remark was that beyond those physical aspects, it is all just a matter of speculation.
but when you breed a gos to a gos or rt to a rt you know what your going to get and that's another version of what you got originally and a good reason to only breed worker to worker, I think the variation between chicks in a x breed clutch would mean that none follow the parents and you don't know what you'll get, having said that I'm not against x breeding as long as it's done with alot of thought about what the young are going to turnout like and not for financial gain as I can see some numpty's turning x breeding into

HunterJen
25-06-2010, 06:53 PM
but when you breed a gos to a gos or rt to a rt you know what your going to get and that's another version of what you got originally and a good reason to only breed worker to worker, I think the variation between chicks in a x breed clutch would mean that none follow the parents and you don't know what you'll get, having said that I'm not against x breeding as long as it's done with alot of thought about what the young are going to turnout like and not for financial gain as I can see some numpty's turning x breeding into

The other thing is finding people that are actually going to buy and fly/hunt these birds to their full potential and not going to get fed up of them and flog them on when they can't be bothered anymore. I wouldn't intentionally go out and fly a cross breed like this but if I had one given to me then i'd certainly give it my all, for the experience and to try and prove the breed's worth.

I think it's only right to critisize a bird once you've seen it in the flesh!

ATB Jen

WhiteTail
25-06-2010, 07:49 PM
I think it's only right to critisize a bird once you've seen it in the flesh!

ATB Jen

Remember back 10-15 years when Ferruginous X redtails were first floating about
They were known as fairytails.. Cause everything lived happily ever after.. (borderline vegitarian!!)

Now there considered one of the top buteo mixes next inline to a Hawkeagle!

I dont think falconers have really come far enough in ability to do many species justice!

Gram
25-06-2010, 07:55 PM
Im going for a HarrisxBudgie,it will be able to tell you were it is or at least ring its own bell.Nowt wrong with Hybrids:twisted:

Griffo30
25-06-2010, 09:27 PM
I don't see how the broadwings haven' t been x'd alot more coz you see loads of falcon x's like perlins, gyr sakers, barbery x's peregrine x's etc

Wise_As_The_Wind
25-06-2010, 09:40 PM
I don't see how the broadwings haven' t been x'd alot more coz you see loads of falcon x's like perlins, gyr sakers, barbery x's peregrine x's etc


less practical applications for hybrid broad-wings?

FalconryGuy
25-06-2010, 09:41 PM
Sorry guys this thread i find rather disturbing.

Can somebody please give me a good argument for creating a hybrid. The HH is a great bird in it's own right as is the RT or Gos. Why should we change them. You might say "but you gain this" but at the same time you loose something else. You only ever hear about the benefits. What happens when it goes wrong.

God or evolution has spent the last coupe of hundred thousand years developing these birds to where they are today. What gives us the right to change them. Because we can or because we want something different to say look what i have got and i am the only 1 breeding them. Load of ****.

Leave them alone. If it were a dog it would be known as a mongrel.

Sorry not a big fan of hybrids and I am not impressed by them.


Even pure bred dogs are hybrids of the wild species. Not to say that I disagree with your viewpoint

Stump
25-06-2010, 09:53 PM
Im going for a HarrisxBudgie,it will be able to tell you were it is or at least ring its own bell.Nowt wrong with Hybrids:twisted:

PMSL :lol:

PlantBreeder
25-06-2010, 09:56 PM
...........................I think the variation between chicks in a x breed clutch would mean that none follow the parents and you don't know what you'll get .................................................. .................

having said that I'm not against x breeding as long as it's done with alot of thought about what the young are going to turnout like ...............

And how, exactly, would you propose to do that, your first statement is contradicted by the second.

Unless the groundwork is done, and thorough trials carried out, without any prejudice, we are never going to know for sure, and all this senseless speculation, myth and mumbo jumbo will drag on and on.

Stump
25-06-2010, 09:56 PM
As far as I know the hybrids are infertile? - someone will correct me if I am wrong - but that is good reason, if it is true -there is then no chance of an escaped one breeding with any native species.

As it stands I have no interest in flying one, but each to their own.

If you look at dogs as an example - they are all hybrids as such, but hundreds of years of careful breeding (and some not so!) has produced the various breeds that suit our purposes - I personally don't see any problem with hybrids, be it hawks or falcons.

Mike

As a matter of interest what bird do you fly at the moment ? Not meant to be a trick question.


Stuart.

BigGos
25-06-2010, 10:55 PM
this males a cracker lads. no1 will no wot this hybrid is like till 1 is flown.
I fly goshawks and only goshawks as im stuck in my ways :rolleyes:
and now its growing im considering fly 1 next year as they have a real good shape about them. 4 me nothing comes close to a goshawk but they arent every1s cup a tea. im gunner see wot a females like on hares next year:lol: AND THIS IS THE FIRST WE HAVE BRED

HunterJen
25-06-2010, 11:48 PM
Remember back 10-15 years when Ferruginous X redtails were first floating about
They were known as fairytails.. Cause everything lived happily ever after.. (borderline vegitarian!!)

Now there considered one of the top buteo mixes next inline to a Hawkeagle!

I dont think falconers have really come far enough in ability to do many species justice!


My thoughts exactly, although I wouldn't jump at the chance to own a hybird like this, it really annoys me when people jump and insult the cross knowing absolutely nothing about it! Even the Ferrutail has not been flown to the potential yet or at least there is no real evidence to support that it has. Therefore I don't think it's right to critisize such an idea. I'd like to see what such a bird is capable of before rendering it with "no brains", etc.

ATB Jen

Robert J Penney
26-06-2010, 09:02 AM
this males a cracker lads. no1 will no wot this hybrid is like till 1 is flown.
I fly goshawks and only goshawks as im stuck in my ways :rolleyes:
and now its growing im considering fly 1 next year as they have a real good shape about them. 4 me nothing comes close to a goshawk but they arent every1s cup a tea. im gunner see wot a females like on hares next year:lol: AND THIS IS THE FIRST WE HAVE BRED

Sorry if i missed this but what are you flying ? A gos or a hybrid? lOL :lol:

Griffo30
26-06-2010, 09:56 AM
And how, exactly, would you propose to do that, your first statement is contradicted by the second.

Unless the groundwork is done, and thorough trials carried out, without any prejudice, we are never going to know for sure, and all this senseless speculation, myth and mumbo jumbo will drag on and on.

what my point is is that there will be variation in a clutch and some probably will turn out well but the wastage would be passed on from pillar to post, but I realise you don't make a cake without breaking eggs

PlantBreeder
26-06-2010, 10:19 AM
what my point is is that there will be variation in a clutch and some probably will turn out well but the wastage would be passed on from pillar to post, but I realise you don't make a cake without breaking eggs

Unfortunately Richard, that is the case in breeding any animal, hybrid or otherwise.

Dog breeders can buy the finest show winning pedigree bitch, put her to the very best of dogs, yet only a small number of the pups will be top quality, the rest will be sold off to the pet trade.

You can pair up the finest hunting birds, yet get rubbish young, there are no guarantees, if it was that easy everybody would be successful doing it.

Same thing with people, take a couple of athletes, and their kids can have two left feet. Genius parents will not always produce smart kids.

So what is the alternative, ban all breeding, including people, until we can work out how to manufacture the super race ? I'm afraid it's a matter of trial and error, and will continue to be so for a very long time to come.

Griffo30
26-06-2010, 10:05 PM
If the right people who had the right birds started a breeding programme I think it would have some kind of control but as with show/peddlar dog breeders alot are in it for the money! A typical example is pug x beagle pup's (puggles) give them a cute name and charge 1200quid a pup! As a cross breed are they going to be that much better at hunting than a pure bred rt or Harris that they deserve triple the price tag? Hard to breed or not is it just a fashion statment, I have no problem with x breeds but I think the real falconer's won't be flying these birds.
I do accept your point PB that you can breed the bast and still have wastage but you should try and breed the best to best to try and carry on the characteristics that made the parents good, a survival of the fittest way of thinking possibly?

If the right people who had the right birds started a breeding programme I think it would have some kind of control but as with show/peddlar dog breeders alot are in it for the money! A typical example is pug x beagle pup's (puggles) give them a cute name and charge 1200quid a pup! As a cross breed are they going to be that much better at hunting than a pure bred rt or Harris that they deserve triple the price tag? Hard to breed or not is it just a fashion statment, I have no problem with x breeds but I think the real falconer's won't be flying these birds.
I do accept your point PB that you can breed the best and still have wastage but you should try and breed the best to best to try and carry on the characteristics that made the parents good, a survival of the fittest way of thinking possibly?

How have the already bred rt d harris's turned out? Out of curiousity?

PlantBreeder
26-06-2010, 10:27 PM
...................................... I have no problem with x breeds but I think the real falconer's won't be flying these birds.
.........................................

How have the already bred rt d harris's turned out? Out of curiousity?


Richard,
re your first statement, I imagine that there are a great many very experienced folk, who fly hybrid falcons, and more than a few that fly hybrid hawks and broadwings ready to take you to task on that remark.

re the second, do you mean to say that you are prepared to criticize, yet you do not know ?

Take a long hard look at the Gos x Black Spar update thread, do you really think it's some kind of Frankenstein monster ??

Griffo30
27-06-2010, 08:56 AM
Richard,
re your first statement, I imagine that there are a great many very experienced folk, who fly hybrid falcons, and more than a few that fly hybrid hawks and broadwings ready to take you to task on that remark.

re the second, do you mean to say that you are prepared to criticize, yet you do not know ?

Take a long hard look at the Gos x Black Spar update thread, do you really think it's some kind of Frankenstein monster ??

Firstly I haven't critiized I said that there is a hypothetical problem when breeding the unknown and as for creating a monster haven't you heard of the expression? I stated in one of my posts that a spar x goss would be a cross that I could see the potential for! When I asked about the rt x harrises already bred I was opening it up to the people who mite not have commented who have a bird of that breeding?

BigGos
27-06-2010, 10:37 AM
just thinking lads is there any1 thats bred it this way as ive only seen the red x harris 4sale? i have done it the other way harris x redtail female and would there be any differance? just a thought:lol:

DavidGallagher
27-06-2010, 10:40 AM
just thinking lads is there any1 thats bred it this way as ive only seen the red x harris 4sale? i have done it the other way harris x redtail female and would there be any differance? just a thought:lol:
i know a guy that breeds it male harris into female red

theres a guy on here that has one of the young from him female

Stoaty
27-06-2010, 06:43 PM
I wonder if the first hybrid longwings got the same mixed reception in the early days. Now their benefits have been seen and they are accepted, though there are still people who only advocate hybrids.

The price is what ever people are wanting to pay. Presumably the breeder put lots of time and effort in and therefore it should be repaid. The fact that he is willing to try a female on hares shows that he thinks there are merits in the cross and this is not just a money making scheme. This is the only reason a hybrid should be tried. (I don't know him so suposition here)

While people are entitled to be skeptical should we not wait and see how they perform before writting them off as a fad/gimmick?

My personal view is that I would love to try one but unfortunately can not afford it so I will have to hope that who ever does end up owning this bird will do a great write up and tell us its progress.

regards
ian

PlantBreeder
27-06-2010, 07:19 PM
I wonder if the first hybrid longwings got the same mixed reception in the early days. Now their benefits have been seen and they are accepted, though there are still people you only advocate hybrids.

The price is what ever people are wanting to pay. Presumably the breeder put lots of time and effort in and therefore it should be repaid. The fact that he is willing to try a female on hares shows that he thinks there are merits in the cross and this is not just a money making scheme. This is the only reason a hybrid should be tried. (I don't know him so suposition here)

While people are entitled to be skeptical should we not wait and see how they perform before writting them off as a fad/gimmick?

My personal view is that I would love to try one but unfortunately can not afford it so I will have to hope that who ever does end up owning this bird will do a great write up and tell us it progress.

regards ian

And you can't say fairer than that ! :supz: :supz: :supz:

BigGos
27-06-2010, 10:03 PM
thanks m8 4 the back up :supz: ive asked the man from germany 2 keep me informed on his progress so i can post it on here, sounds like hes gunner be flown hard on all different quarry so should be really good to see all the lads who wright this bird off soon change there minds if he makes the grade. and 4 sum reason i think hes gunner make it:lol: and yes the birds been sold 2 a guy from germany so may get a few orders from over there next year :lol: