What Bird is best for what Quarry

[Mr_Colin]

Just thought I would try and get a better understanding of different birds and quarry. I know alot of people would be a bit prejudice towards birds they fly but if we have lots of replies then maybe a pattern will start to form.

I have only flown a Harris Hawk (afew different ones) at quarry and they look pretty good at hunting rabbits, but are they the best? Willow flys at 2lb 3 oz at the end of season and was excellent at Rabbits, got a few Pheasants and a couple of crows.

So all you people with different birds what are they best at?

The floor is open.

Colin

[Hawkmaster]

MOVED FROM GENERAL FALCONRY TALK

Good thread mate, I think it may help lots of beginners.

Lets be civil here people and work to help people, not ridicule others and their birds.

[Adam Barrett]

id say that the harris is definatly the all around best rabbit hawk.

but i think you have to bear in mind the type of land and flight style to compare how differant birds preform on the same quarry.

[Osiris]

id agree with adam. the harris is definitely a great rabbit hawk, but if you pair up say two female HH go for hare. saying that, HH are extremely versitile birds, especially the males.

[Adam Barrett]

why do you need to pair to up??
A fit confident harris will take hare on there own regularly-but i think there are far more suitable birds to be flown at hare?

[Gaz]

There"S only one bird for hare...fem red

[Jiff]

i flew my first ever bird of prey last year, a female harris hawk, once she started taking rabbits, she made it look so easy that i would try and set up difficult slips just to extend the day, she still nailed em, this comming season i'm hoping for a hare or two, i have every confidance in her and i would dare say with a bit of luck and gods willing i'll never own another bird, she doesnt show much interest in feather but i'm not bothered, i can catch moor hens and coots myself and phesant is a pain in the ass to ploat and dress each to theire own i suppose but as long as she puts rabbits in the bag she's the gal for me........female harris hare and rabbit number one.............form a very experienced novice.

[Mr_Colin]

I would love to try Willow on Hare when she gets fit next season but I have not seen a single one on the land I fly over, poor me

[Ben C]

Harris definately on rabbit. Perhaps Hare if the falconer is fast enough. With the occassional pheasant, duck and woodcock.

Gos for the above as well if you like it off the fist and in the sky :) :)

Sparrowhawk/Aplomado for the pure unadulterated thrill of it all :) :) Oh I can dream..............................:)

I'll leave the eagels and falcons for those who know about them.

[MickeyDredd]

There"S only one bird for hare...fem red

:supz:

[Matt]

big question to ask this !! im sure there will be blood spilt over it to...
at the top for feather and fur HAS to be the gos i have not had one my self yet , but they are the kings and queens of the hawk family. a very close second is the harris not much to say here as we all know the massive pros and limited cons of these birds quary wise almost any thing that moves seems to have been taken at one time or another with eather of these birds.
personal im not the biggest fan of harrises i find them to easy prodictable and to be honest a bit bland.
hare /sqirrel /rabbit and much more ,you would do well to look at red tails , they are making a big come back as the hords of harris hawkers are looking for new chalenges and a bit punch out of there bird.
coopers im told are not up to much in this climate , i think this is down to the fact that they are very adapted to there natural habitat making them a fish out of water away from there native america.
spars we all know how good these little native birds can be on feather up to and including pheasant and small duck.

this leads us to the falcons but im gona leave it there and let someone else have a go.
all the best matt

[MickeyDredd]

personal im not the biggest fan of harrises i find them to easy prodictable and to be honest a bit bland.


Matt

No blood spilt, however if you have flown a harris and flown it properly, you wouldn't make such a predictable and bland statement.

[Renton]

No blood spilt, however if you have flown a harris and flown it properly, you wouldn't make such a predictable and bland statement.

:D :D :D

[Mr_Colin]

I personally love flying my FHH, but saying that I have not seen any other BOP flown at quarry so cant comment. Hey Hawkmaster I'm not far from you how about me coming and seeing your other birds in action Please. :wink:

[Ben C]

personal im not the biggest fan of harrises i find them to easy prodictable and to be honest a bit bland.


Ahhhhh my friend you are mistaken :) :) :).......................Gos for the glove, Harris for the sky.......I take it you haven't slope soared with a Harris yet???

As a very wise and experienced falconer once told me.............."A Gos on a rabbit is not fair sport" (very true as well:) ). Well in that case the humble rabbit can only be matched with either a Red or a Harris. Now we know a Harris does all that a Red can do, but can a Red soar????? PROPERLY AS WELL.

P.S I love RT, they are supeb hawks. And all of this is being said in a nice friendly way Matt :) :) :) :)

[Mr_Colin]

Hey BenC did you have Cody souring last season. Willow likes to hug the ground.

[Ben C]

Nope......not properly. But this year we have the land, we have the bond and we have the kills under our belt. So we are redy to go. One of the kids at my school has 800 acres of sheep farm up on some very big hills in shropshire. His parent have given me carte blanche over the whole place :) :) :) :). Happens to have a GROUSE breeding farm next door!!!

[Renton]

Happens to have a GROUSE breeding farm next door!!!

That could be interesting!

[Wightwings]

Nope......not properly. But this year we have the land, we have the bond and we have the kills under our belt. So we are redy to go. One of the kids at my school has 800 acres of sheep farm up on some very big hills in shropshire. His parent have given me carte blanche over the whole place :) :) :) :). Happens to have a GROUSE breeding farm next door!!!

git....... :wink:

[MickeyDredd]

Harris does all that a Red can do, but can a Red soar????? PROPERLY AS WELL.


Ben

My FRT has waited on above when the conditions have been right. i set her down at the top of a small slope and walk the rushes in the gulley below. if she sees movement (or thinks she does) she'll come and wait on overhead and if a bunny gets up she'll pile in from height.

If I had more and deeper gullies to work with I'd try it more often with her and see if she would go up, but it's mostly off the fist flights.

[Ben C]

Yes fellas how cool is that :) :)

That is interesting Mickey. How high did she go mate. :) And can you give us a few pointers?

[BrianM]

i have foud that tosca soars no problem now she is in her 2 nd year its just something she wouldnt do last year

[Adam Barrett]

my harris is goin up on the soar frequently now-about 90-100 feet i would say but we havent yet had a kill from the soar.

I think reds are better for soar hawking than a harris as they tend to lock in to the thermals much quicker and faster than a harris :)

[Ben C]

Well Adam I can't argue with that just yet.............but give me a few months and we can 'discuss' which is best. :) :) :) :)

[MickeyDredd]

Ben

I haven't tried to get her up soaring very often but in the example I gave she was only about 30-40 feet up. I dont have the type of land to seriously get her to go up.

We're up high when i go for the blue hare which would be ideal but i'm usually flying with a mate and his harris so dont really want to try her then. I think I would have to try to get her to "follow on" (you cant cast her off the fist into the wind and expect her to go up like my harris will do) and then try to develop things from there.

I might have a go this season out of interest.

Mike

[Ben C]

Mickey

Thats about all I have done as well. Cody has shown a joy for it when we have done it, zipping all over the place. He came in on a cross wind and landed on my head before shooting off on another gust. :) :) :)

I think its the way forward for Harris owners ( in my VERY VERY humble opinion) :) :) :)

[Matt]

if you have herd the statment about the "bland and prodictable harris" before maybe ther is some truth in it. alot of people start out with harris and for good reason , i my self envoyed a season or two with mine . but harris style and type of flight is not what i was looking for when i got in to falconry . as i have been hunting all my life , it was and is a very bland type of flight. although we took wild grey partrage IN filight , hare rabbit , mallard .stoat and of course manny small mice ect.
in my opinion if you like the way they hunt a good lurcher or terreir would see you much more sport.
matt

[Matt]

oh and red tails can soar , the birds to be found in the grand canion area hunt from the soar hundred of feet up. taking on ravens in true arial battel as they compeat for the same food suply lizards and small mamals . this i know is fact and with a little resurch can be found out very easly .
matt

[CastleFalconry]

The most thrilling flight I have ever witnessed was between a friends Fem Spar and a blackbird, about 11 years ago.

Flown from the fist at a distance of about 40 yards, the Spar made fast progress and was able to keep on the tail of the blackbird. In fact, the quarry only kept out of the way due to the fact it could out-manoevre (!?) the Spar.

The chase seemed to go on for ever, as we were both riveted to the spot. The Blackbird eventually burried itself in a privet hedge, followed almost immediately by the Spar. As the Spar was thrashing around inside he hedge, the Blackbird popped out the other side and cleared off!

The Blackbird escaped unharmed (though perhaps a little fitter), and the Spar was most put out, though the flight itself is still so vivid in my mind, all these years on.

It goes to show, It doesn't matter whether you're flying a Kestrel at dragonfly's or a Goldie at foxes, it's the way the bird flys that matters.

I've flown Harrises at Rabbits, Reds at squirrels and Sakers at rook, but to me it's always the flight that counts, not the kill.

Because of this, I've said that my next hunter will be a Spar, as I feelI now have the experience to attempt the best out of one of these marvells. They are pieces of dynamite that perform every single time and something that I will be a part of!

R. x

[Isaac]

BenC wrote:Harris does all that a Red can do, but can a Red soar????? PROPERLY AS WELL.

Can a RT soar?...Did I read that right? Maybe it's just not done that way in the UK but that's all RT's do in the wild! They're a buteo, a broadwing, in other words "built for soaring". Harris' are a parabuteo (the only one to my knowlege...?) kind of a mix between a accipiter and a buteo, but not designed as specifically for soaring as a RT. If you want to see some absolutely awesome shots of RT's in action from a soar get the "Road to Bakersfield" DVD. The entire opening segment is RT's hunting big American jackrabbits (similar to your hare) from a soar. They just bomb them from right out of the sky, it's some of the best footage I've ever seen. Admittedly though, their conditions are ideal. It may not be the same in the UK.

[Ben C]

Well duh!!! I am not talking about what they do in the wild fellas.....but what falconers do with em.

Matt are you alright?? You seem a little vexed about something. I am not sure anyone was slandering you mate? I know for a FACT I wasn't. I certainly didn't use swearing and/or abusive comments. :) :) :) :) :) Please relax its just a bit of banter, no need to get all out of kilter.

Just because the many find something bland doesn't mean they are right though hey? I mean loads of people like big brother and steps.....doesn't mean its quality does it? The majority voted for Tony Blair......and he is a definate twonk. :) :)

[MickeyDredd]

oi harrisits i have had harris hawks and who the **** are you to be telling me what i find and manny other falconers find to be in our experiance a bland bird , why does my opinion lead to a personal atack of my skills or experiance . i did not say that you are knob heads for liking the harris , i simply spoke my mind, in future **** off with slander as you know nothing of me my experiances or the birds i have flown or at what quarry i have taken with them.
mabe its not the harris hawks it the twats that fly them that bores me most .
matt

Relax Matt, nobody slandered you or made a personal attack on you, all I was saying was that the Harris is far from being bland and predictable in many peoples opinion (if flown properly by someone who knows what they are doing) and used your words to describe the way some people tend to dismiss them. Unfortunately the Harris suffers because it is the species most commonly flown by inexperienced falconers and as a result its reputation suffers.

I know nothing of you or your experience but out of interest, how many birds have you flown and how long have you been a falconer?

[Isaac]

BenC wrote:
Well duh!!! I am not talking about what they do in the wild fellas.....but what falconers do with em.

...And that's what I'm talking about too! The Road to Bakerfield DVD has RT's being used for falconry absolutely pounding jackrabbits from a soar. Check it out. Awesome stuff. The Harris' in the video aren't soaring thou... :wink:

[Ben C]

Well thanks for that AFJ......................I am gonna do a search this morning :) :). I have to say I do love RT as much as Harris Hawks, they are super looking birds. But in your experience are either species flown like this regularly (super high soaring)?? I would make a wild stab in the dark and a huge generalisation and say that they are not. :)

I would imagine they are mainly used in free flight and from the fist (but could be wrong!!).

Thanks
Ben

[Matt]

i edited my post removing the abusive coments. soory to all that read them i was tired and it was to late to be posting on here . to those i ofended im truly sorry.

back to this thred ....
it think manny people dont ask enough of there birds ben if the red tail can master the skys so we it become nature . then its a clear case that as falconry birds they should and could be master at a waiting on flight. with the advent of kite training there is little reason to not see this type of flight more often. if they dont do it with falconers in the uk its the handler not the bird.
all the best

[Ben C]

back to this thred ....
it think manny people dont ask enough of there birds ben if the red tail can master the skys so we it become nature . then its a clear case that as falconry birds they should and could be master at a waiting on flight. with the advent of kite training there is little reason to not see this type of flight more often. if they dont do it with falconers in the uk its the handler not the bird.
all the best

Absolutely................in which case how would the Red and the Harris compare on rabbit if flown like this regularly?. Which would be the best for slope soaring on rabbit? :) :) :)

[MickeyDredd]

But in your experience are either species flown like this regularly (super high soaring)??
Thanks
Ben

Ben, the only thing with "super high soaring" is that if you kick up a bunny it will be probably be long gone down a burrow by the time a RT or HH gets down from such a height.

Fine if your after hare though :lol: :lol:

[OutFlying]

Ben,
A few years ago my gos went on a soar early in its training off a hillside, couple of hundred feet up. Flushed a rabbit and he did a vertical stoop at speed down onto the rabbit, the gosses brain must have kicked in when it realized it would most likely injure it itself attempting the strike and it pulled up and off at the last minute.

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

Jim

That was another point I was going to make, I would imagine there would be a real danger of the bird injuring itself hitting ground quarry from that kind of height in a stoop. I suppose it would be okay if it had time to level out before striking the quarry which is where I was kinda going with the hare scenario.

[Ben C]

I bet it was awesome to watch.......

OF....Do you think that the Gos and the Harris would travel at the same speed in the stoop, or would it also be the case of the harris being slower as in off the fist. Another case of ........if its got time to think its not flying fast enough :) :) I take it OF your saying that 'super high soaring' is possible but is unlikely to end successfully.


Mickey.....Yep your probably right, but I only need one or two flights that suceed to make my little brain happy :) :) :) Don't forget grouse and pheasant don't go under ground. :) :) :) :) :)


Can't wait to see if Hollinshead agrees with you lot. :)

[MickeyDredd]

Mickey.....Yep your probably right, but I only need one or two flights that suceed to make my little brain happy :) :) :) Don't forget grouse and pheasant don't go under ground. :) :) :) :) :)

Yup, but I don't bloody well have any on my ground :evil:

[Ben C]

What can I say?? Hhahahahahaheheheheh :) :) :) I send you a pheasant in the post if you want mate :) :)

[OutFlying]

I bet it was awesome to watch.......

OF....Do you think that the Gos and the Harris would travel at the same speed in the stoop, or would it also be the case of the harris being slower as in off the fist. Another case of ........if its got time to think its not flying fast enough :) :) I take it OF your saying that 'super high soaring' is possible but is unlikely to end successfully.


Mickey.....Yep your probably right, but I only need one or two flights that suceed to make my little brain happy :) :) :) Don't forget grouse and pheasant don't go under ground. :) :) :) :) :)


Can't wait to see if Hollinshead agrees with you lot. :)


Ben,
I think they need to come in from the stoop on a long shallow angle, then end up taking the quarry from a more usual angle rather than from a verticle.

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

What can I say?? Hhahahahahaheheheheh :) :) :) I send you a pheasant in the post if you want mate :) :)

I know what they look like mate - theres a bloody shoot right across the road. :roll:

We get the odd pheasant come on to our land so do get a few flights at them, but not enough

[Ben C]

Funnily enough thats how I have seen footage and still shots of the Harris in particular doing it. I personally do not think the Harris has the 'direct stoop manouverability' but then again I haven't the experience to really offer that opinion.

Its all about experimentation and another year learning something new. I bet we get no sodding wind this season. :) :) :)

[MickeyDredd]

Its all about experimentation and another year learning something new. I bet we get no sodding wind this season. :) :) :)

Probably plenty at the barbie :lol: :lol:

[Ben C]

More like a load of hot air coming from my drunken mouth. :) :)

[OutFlying]

Ben,
If its hit in the verticle with ground game its going to smash it feet / legs into pieces, it will come to a sudden stop out of the stoop. It needs space for the prey to move to reduce the force of the impact.

Jim.

[Ben C]

The ground I am going onto is heather and gauze hill side. Wide open spaces with no trees or perches. I've got the land, I have just got to go and try it. :) :)

[Mr_Colin]

Ben,
If its hit in the verticle with ground game its going to smash it feet / legs into pieces, it will come to a sudden stop out of the stoop. It needs space for the prey to move to reduce the force of the impact.

Jim.

If Ben gets too drunk at the Barbie it might be him falling to the ground in a stuper and breaking something, :lol:

[Matt]

about reds and harris stooping , they guys and girls to ask would be the eagle flyers they will have bags of know how on this topic....
but im sure this is well of base and the original question.
alot of this stuff could be done through email and msn even the chat room , if i was a new commer to the sport i would lose intrest and be apalled by the remarks and coments people like me have posted on this tread.
if you are new trying to learn from the threads on this forum please dont get the wrong impression . im just a hot headed gobb git .
all the best matt
im gona leave it up to you guys to conclude this thread. as i dont think i can ad to it much any way..

[Mr_Colin]

Sorry I forgot my own question :wink: :finga:

[Ben C]

if i was a new commer to the sport i would lose intrest and be apalled by the remarks and coments people like me have posted on this tread.
if you are new trying to learn from the threads on this forum please dont get the wrong impression . im just a hot headed gobb git .
all the best matt
im gona leave it up to you guys to conclude this thread. as i dont think i can ad to it much any way.

Matt? Are you OK, as a newcomer I am not appalled by your comments. I have read your posts and know what you fly. Its a nice pair of sparrowhawks you have there mate. :) :). Therefore I must conclude that you know a thing or two. :)

The bottom line is that us Harris Hawkers take far more stick than people realise, its all part of the process I suppose (doesn't make us feel any better though). Personally I don't give a rats behind if people find em boring or bland. They are not with me when I am hunting and so they can never see and feel what I do.

However it never ceases to amaze me that the Harris Hawk is the most common hawk used, but also the one which has the LEAST AMOUNT OF SPECIALIST KNOWLEDGE presented in books. I was given a figure of 30/40'000 Harris Hawks in the UK, but only about 1% being flowm properly?? That is A LOT of unhappy Harris Hawks given the same routine for a few years. Some falconers need a good kicking particularly if they can keep a Harris and not feel guilty about the way they treat it. AND THEN COMPLAIN about it being boring/bland/common/dull/slow etc etc

However I have chosen this species of Hawk for personal reasons and I (we) will never pass him on. So I am going to make the best job of him as I can and sod the protocol and hierachy. It may look like the Robin Relient Derby to the 'big guns' but that doesn't detract from its passion and dedication. Even a blunt tool can be dangerous in the right hands (yeah yeah I know....I haven't got the right hands!!!! :) :) )

Best bird for the job............MY harris on any rabbit. :) :) :) :) :)

[OutFlying]

:D

[IAmTheWeasel]

There"S only one bird for hare...fem red

:supz:
:supz: :supz:

[Newbie FHH]

Ok, so am I wrong here or did the thread go off a bit from the original?:-) We are just literally about to buy a HH as we have concluded it is the best for our needs being total beginners and inundated with rabbits in the area. Although I did read ALL of these replies on this thread to see what bird was suited to what just to double check we were doing the right thing in that respect!!! ;-)

Hubbie would also like to fly at squirrels and fancies a few crows/rooks too - do you think the HH (female) would be any good at this?

[Newbie FHH]

if i was a new commer to the sport i would lose intrest and be apalled by the remarks and coments people like me have posted on this tread.

And another thing ..... don't worry, I like to see people getting a bit heated as it is obvious that they feel passionate about the subjects. I am new to the sport and to the site and I haven't been put off.

The only thing that does put me off slightly is having to read ALL the threads on a subject to find answers to my questions (without having to post them) and then getting to the end and they not be answered!! Fun reading them tho ;-)

[Mr_Colin]

Hiya Newbie FHH

I have a one year old Female HH and she is excellent at taking Rabbits. Slow start but a good end to the season. She has also taken Pheasant, both on the ground and in the air. She has had a go at rooks but they seem to be too fast for her, it may just be a fitness thing but she gives up on them after a while. She got one but he had a broken wing and it seemed best to put it out of it's misery.

I am no expert but if you primarily want to hunt rooks/crows then may I suggest a Male HH as they are smaller and quicker. Failing that have the best of both worlds and get both sexes and fly in a cast.

Colin

[Shaun Byrne]

FHH, stay away from squirrels, they are more trouble than they are worth. Dangerous to an inexperienced bird and the vets bills for treating bites can get expensive.

[Newbie FHH]

stay away from squirrels, they are more trouble than they are worth. Dangerous to an inexperienced bird

That's what I'm worried about and trying to get hubbie to steer clear. I can see why he wants to as I imagine that it could be fun and also gets rid of some vermin! But I do agree with you.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Funnily enough thats how I have seen footage and still shots of the Harris in particular doing it. I personally do not think the Harris has the 'direct stoop maneuverability' but then again I haven't the experience to really offer that opinion.

Its all about experimentation and another year learning something new. I bet we get no sodding wind this season. :) :) :)


Harris hawk's do have the "direct stoop maneuverability" .Given the correct situation a Harris will stoop hard from a soaring or scanning flight.

I find this a common occurrence when i am hunting.

If a Harris is in a tall tree and spots quarry below it goes down like a stone. It goes into a stoop and puts the brakes on before contact and then chucks out the talons. This demonstrates there stooping ability. Due to the genetical makeup they wouldn't stoop like a falcon.

However when the bird stoops from a height the hit ratio is not very good.
The bird changes direction or its mind during the closing stages.I would agree with mickey about the reason why the bird pulls up or misses.

[Ben C]

Woooo Hoooooo, I love being proved wrong when the results are like this.....Cheers Chuffpiece :) :) :) :) :)

[Kornie]

Many a stoop on pheasant has Trinity had. She often goes over in straight flight to hedgerows goes directly up a few feet flips in the air and comes rocketing down towards the earth, and like chas sez, throws out the talons.