"Old School" or "New Age"

[Tim Laycock]

An exchange with a new member got me thinking again this evening.

What style do you consider the sport that you and your charge strive to achieve.

Do you pursue your goals in this sport/art by what some would call "Old fashioned", "Quaint" and "Outdated" methods and ideals?
Or
Do you consider yourself a new age/modern falconer who makes use of every technological means at his/her disposal, always egar to embrace new ideas and theorys regardless of past president?

I realize many of us (Myself included) consider ourselves to be quite a well rounded mixture of both but in the end if you had to come down on one side of the fence or the other which would you choose?

I have registered my vote. Please make your view known.

[ColdZero]

definitely 'new age'. I don't like to stick to traditional methods, but try my own and will use any modern material or tool etc that is ueful. But how many things need replacing? Leather and balance scales are perfect the way they are, but if they bring out something better i will use that.

[Ben C]

New age................****** more like. A case of re-inventing the wheel. 'New age' pretends to be modern but without the tradition, the building blocks and the knowledge nothing gets done seriously. It's like comparing a sabtier carving knife with a boots own made electric 'chicken cutter'. Does the same job but one just oozes time, place and 'feel'.

In falconry terms I am probably just below a yeoman, which in essence is what I am in contemporary society anyway. I generally hunt for the pot, but strive for good flights. I use a practical hawk and live in and on fairly 'normal' farming ground. I pay rent to a land owner and throw money at beggers (well I give it to them nicely :) :))

However I'd be a fool to deny the use of medicine, imported skins, plastic handled knives, brass rivets, a shed from B&Q, DOC from Honeybrook farm, vitamin suppliments, imported hawk, a car to drive to my hunting ground and an electric oven to cook my catch.

Bottom line is though: I couldn't use any of the above without all of the hard work, skill and dare I say, artistry of those who have gone before me.


Good question BB. :) :) :) :) :)

[OutFlying]

use all information possible old or new - most of all proven methods.

[Peregrynne]

I would have to say that I will start old school because, as BenC said, without the building blocks how can you get to the more advanced levels to try the new stuff?

[ColdZero]

so you guys still stay up all night until the bird, which will be a gos etc falls asleep? how pedantic/specific do you mean? Everyone uses modern materials, fly foreign birds (mostly) or unnatural hybrids and use different training methods....so who exactly claims to be 'old school'.

[Tim Laycock]

so you guys still stay up all night until the bird, which will be a gos etc falls asleep?
This is a misinterpretation CZ
Everyone uses modern materials
Some, but not many
fly foreign birds
My Gos is of foreign decent but you tell me where I can legaly buy a british one :wink:
unnatural hybrids
:vom:
different training methods
Yes. nine times out of ten old ones 8) :lol:

who exactly claims to be 'old school'
I do. Just not so old school that I cant tell a forward step from a backwards one :wink:

[BlueHawk]

Think you'd have to look at what falconry has evolved into as a whole, how old is "old school" for instance (leather leashes, seeling,lack of weighing eqpt.) I think the general population fall somewhere in between..

I also think almost all falconers will take up new ideas if they have proven to be effective, my philosophy is:- if it works for you, who am I to argue, but I might not like your cable tie bewitts or kevlar hood.... :lol:

If it aint broke, dont fix it...

[Falconry Equipment International]

so you guys still stay up all night until the bird, which will be a gos etc falls asleep? how pedantic/specific do you mean? Everyone uses modern materials, fly foreign birds (mostly) or unnatural hybrids and use different training methods....so who exactly claims to be 'old school'.
SO CZ How do you mann Gosses?????

[Ben C]

CZ I would like to think that if my scales went, there were no vitamin suppliments, brass dissapeared, B&Q went bust, Honeybrook farm closed down and me and Cody were suddenly transported into the American desert I would still be able to fly him daily, keep him fit and still catch prey.

So in principle (i'd like to think so anyway mate :) :) :)) old school, but in practice a bit of both. Even you are old school mate, but I bet you don't even know it. How cool would it be to not have to weigh your RT, just look at it pick it up and the KNOW through skill its gonna get em for you today :) :)

[Falconry Equipment International]

How cool would it be to not have to weigh your RT, just look at it pick it up and the KNOW through skill its gonna get em for you today :) :)
Ben while I don't recommend it due to circumstances( house fire etc) I flew 2 Gosses for just about a whole season without weighing them.

[Tim Laycock]

I weigh my hawks every day without fail. All Im looking out for is the drop in weight that denotes illness.
I take the information the scales give me and "Weigh" it against what I can discern from her attitude.
With regard to flying condition the latter is a far more accurate yard stick.
I have witnesed Goshawks leave the scene for pastures new more times than I care to remember when the were "Bang on weight" .
Show them an ungarnished lure. The response will tell you all that need be known.

[Adam Barrett]

if it jumps up to your fist when you enter the mews-its ready :twisted:

i would aslways weigh my hawk as a precaution though-as BB says it will show any signs of possiable illness and it also gives you that piece of mind.

[Liam Hay]

yeah i have to say i flew an entire display team last year not weighing them.

[ColdZero]

as i said i was being pedantic. I think i am right that people man their birds by carrying them around etc. Before you would sit with until they fell asleep, so does this count as 'new school'? Obviously falconry hasn't changed MUCH, but there are a few things like telemetry etc that are now considered normal. Everyone does use modern materials, and doesn't make them themselves.

anyway i have made my point, you would be an idiot to claim you were old school, or totally new school.

[IAmTheWeasel]

Funny thread this one as we are basicly all clasified as New age as far as I am concerned. The question did not ask what could you get away with such as no scales, telemetry, etc. It asks what you consider yourself, Old? Or New? I think it would be a better question to ask"Are you a traditionalist? Now, By this does a leather leash make me a traditionalist? I guess in my opinion, I am certainly a non-traditionalist as I prefer to use all modern means available to better my falconry abilities such as Medications, surgical procedures, electronic scales, telemetry etc.
Weasel

[ColdZero]

you phrased it much better than me :lol:

[Shaun Byrne]

I think we are New Age Falconers practising an Old School Art.

[Bash]

use all information possible old or new - most of all proven methods.

I'm the same but I would always fall on tried and tested methods when needed and so consider myself a traditionalist.

[Liam Hay]

I think u can't categarise what we are old or new, combinations of both but the best falconers in the world are not of UK or US origin, they are very much old school as it has been passed down from generation to generation when we reach there high standards without the use of telemtry etc then we will truly be awesome Falconers.

[Tim Laycock]

I make use of what modern technology/methods I need for practicalitys sake. (I need very little) 8)

[Tim Laycock]

ColdZero wrote-
Before you would sit with until they fell asleep

CZ you are misrepresenting the process :x If you dont understand it dont comment on it :wink:
Whats your real name? T.H.White????????????? RRRpmsl

[Adam Barrett]

nice one BB :lol: :lol:

[ColdZero]

well i saw a video showing this method, so do me a favour and write them a letter explaining why they are wrong :wink:

[Adam Barrett]

Before you would sit with until they fell asleep

i think this is the part that you have miss understood CZ- the aim of manning like this was to keep the hawk awake for aslong as possiable untill it was so exahusted it didnt have the energy to bait away from things ect - resulting in the bird taming and calming down :yawinkle:

At least this is what i have been led to beleive but i have personally never used this method of 'waking' so i may be mistaken.
thanks
Adam

[Kevin Massey]

new age falconer with old school values !!!

[ColdZero]

maybe i have misunderstood, but what i gathered from the video (can't remeber the name), is that the hawk won't sleep until it trusts you, and eventually it must sleep and it helps to build the bond, and it worked well on the video as the gos would eat off the fist after.

[Ben C]

PCHAY: How would you and could you emulate them in the UK ?

[Liam Hay]

We can't i don't think, we have lost that old edge many moons ago reallying on new things and technology to help us, we will never have that underatnding of Falconry again i don't think.

[Tim Laycock]

maybe i have misunderstood, but what i gathered from the video (can't remeber the name), is that the hawk won't sleep until it trusts you, and eventually it must sleep and it helps to build the bond, and it worked well on the video as the gos would eat off the fist after.

Yes. You have watched The Goshawk.
A laterday day interpretation of T.H.Whites misinterpretation of "An Approved Treatise of Hawks and Hawking" by Edmund Bert.
Now you have seen the video buy a copy of "Bert" and "White". Then compare the two books/methods.
What you will see is why White had nothing but toil and disaster with "Gos"

On second thoughts dont bother as it will be of little use to you and your red tail :|

We can't i don't think, we have lost that old edge many moons ago reallying on new things and technology to help us, we will never have that underatnding of Falconry again i don't think.

If we dont strive to emulate them how will we ever hope to measure our understanding against theirs?

[Falconry Equipment International]

maybe i have misunderstood, but what i gathered from the video (can't remeber the name), is that the hawk won't sleep until it trusts you, and eventually it must sleep and it helps to build the bond, and it worked well on the video as the gos would eat off the fist after.

Yes. You have watched The Goshawk.
A laterday day interpretation of T.H.Whites misinterpretation of "An Approved Treatise of Hawks and Hawking" by Edmund Bert.
Now you have seen the video buy a copy of "Bert" and "White". Then compare the two books/methods.
What you will see is why White had nothing but toil and disaster with "Gos"

On second thoughts dont bother as it will be of little use to you and your red tail :|

We can't i don't think, we have lost that old edge many moons ago reallying on new things and technology to help us, we will never have that underatnding of Falconry again i don't think.

If we dont strive to emulate them how will we ever hope to measure our understanding against theirs?
Hi Bb perhaps he has read 'redtail by mr D Butler' I =read the 1st page and thought that I was re- reading THW's work, perhaps this is 'new age" :shock: :wink: :vom: :yawinkle:

[Tim Laycock]

Hi Bb perhapos he has read 'redtail by mr D Butler' I =read the 1ast page and thought that I was re- reading THW's work, perhaps this is 'new age"

:shock: Good grief!
I hope not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :vom: :wink: :lol:

[ColdZero]

On second thoughts dont bother as it will be of little use to you and your red tail Neutral

My red-tail is doing fantastic thanks, you will see when i make a diary in a few days, so you are right in that i don't NEED to learn about tradition falconry, but i like to be open minded unlike far too many people on this forum

[Tim Laycock]

Dont get gobby again you little ****.
Take note of the neutral smilie at the end of my last post.
Im glad your red is fairing well but perhaps before you pick her up again you should go and crouch over a speeding fist for five minuits!!!
It will remove some of the angst that makes you send sly quips my way
when you are shown to of posted a spread of ill-informed ***** :lol:


p.s Im only messin :wink:

[Liam Hay]

If we dont strive to emulate them how will we ever hope to measure our understanding against theirs?

How do we emulate them though BB from a book???? its not going to happen unless u move out there, which is what we might all end up having to do if the anti's get there way.

[Tim Laycock]

Im guilty of a misunderstanding mucker!!! :wink: :rolleyes:
I have read what you were refering to :oops: and Im forced to admit that I was a bit hasty with the quote selected tab!!!(no change there then :roll: )

If the antis get their way they will have to lock me up! You too I suspect :wink:

[Ben C]

Not just books PChay. But if you make the effort to go to India, Kazack, europe, Saudi even only on visits you could pick up stuff slowly. Old father time is not on our side though :) :). I plan to make at least a couple of trips a year to a variety of countries to pick stuff up. 5 days here and there is enough.

Ultimately it's those Gos hawks in India with the fellas and their jangolia that appeal at the moment (but don't tell my Harris that:) ). Next Aplomado's in South America. There was a poster on recently, who has gone quiet, who knew of a farmer who had no idea about falconry, but was using falcons when he moved his herd of cattle in the spring. Thats as close as anything I've heard so far to the beginnings of falconry. I'd like to visit that area of the South American mountains :) :) Just for the adventure :) :)

[Tim Laycock]

Ben. Get yourself to Japan m8 :prayer:

[Kornie]

I would like to class myself as an "old Skool" falconer, as I use very few new techniques. I also like to think I interpret my own techniques and apply common sense and knowledge of the breed to come to my own assumptions/conclusion - but then again, I did get a lot from books.

I'd like to camoglage myself as a cactus and do some reasearch just watching the behaviour of wild harris' in a pack. Then obtain some ideas put them into play and help get the best out my harris.

[Ben C]

Lance and Jill Morrow..........find out about their research Kornie: The Pheonix Project.

Japan eh?? Hadn't thought of that one!

[Tim Laycock]

China too!
Those boys have been passing knowlege from father to son for thousands of years 8)

(Not too sure about the horse hair jesses but I like the style) :rolleyes:

[Wightwings]

horse hair jesses............nnnaaaaa lad nnaaaaa.........sorry couldnt resist the obvious one. :roll:

for me i suppose its a mixture i like to use traditional methods and obviuosly mix with modern items such as telem etc.

dont think you should be too blinkered but the traditional stuff should be kept alive .

[Ben C]

More info BB please!!! :)

WW thats it in a nutshell.

[Tim Laycock]

The Chinese use braided horse hair jesses.
These are looped around the hawks legs and braided back together to form the "anklet" these are then attached to separate loops anchored to a common swivel.
I am currently working on something similar for Rosalinda. I will put pics on when it is finished(Horse hair will be conspicuous by its absence :lol: )

[Tim Laycock]

Here it is. What do ya reckon?

[Ben C]

Nope I am lost there. A hands on demo is needed. :) :) How about next Friday?

[Tim Laycock]

No worries :)

[Wightwings]

like them a description or stage by stage piccies would be a goos thread........... :wink: