food stuffs

[Jiff]

hi guy's and gals,
i know the subject of d.o.c's and there neutritional worth has been descused alot in the past, i don't want to start another debate i just want to share my observasions over the moult, as the moult progressed my FMHH became quite ravinous so her food ration was increased under control, the one thing i did notice was that the days she was fed rat or quail the following day she wouldnt be as keen for food but when fed on d.o.c's the day after as soon as she knew i was about she would be running round the walls and waiting at the door of the avery for her rations she eats 5 chicks a day am i feeding enough or is this proof that chicks just don't cut it.

if i can just add one other thing about feeding correctly this time the subject is our friend the ferret, again the subject has been chewd over in the past, but recently i finnished building my new accomodation for the ferrets, they now have plenty of room to climb about and play, when i was at work a couple of weeks back i asked my daughter to get me a bag of ferret food from the pet shop,finding they were out of stock she phoned me, i told her to get a quality cat food as an emergency put me up. i fed this food for a few days, but even after just a few days my ferrets lost weight dramaticly, i stuffed em full of venison from the freezer that i'd got from a road kill earlier in the year and binned the cat food, they soon picked up again, i'm not saying you can't feed alternative foods but what i will say is pay attention to the neutritional content of the food(which is usualy printed on the pack) the protien just was'nt there for the ferrets that were now fairly active all day in there new accomodation.

[ColdZero]

my ferret loves cat biscuits, I know this cos he loves nicking off the cat but i also give him some 'ferretvite' which helps them put on weight. But its just a nice treat for them.

[Kornie]

Jiff, I was speaking to talib, who is reasearch nutritional scientist and has studied all this at his lab:

He told me that he personaly has found that DOCs, gutted or ungutted are of almost no nutritional value to birds of prey. He has found quail and pigeon to be the best source of food and he gets them fresh. He also added that the freezing of food causes irreversable chemical reactions in the food very similar to cooking... and if possible should be avoided.

So feed as little DOCs as you can folks, besides you can trust him, hes a doctor!

[OutFlying]

It seems Neal Forbes has it all wrong then :shock:

[BrianM]

Jiff, I was speaking to talib, besides you can trust him, hes a doctor!

so was Harold Shipman

[Kornie]

Well, it looks that way!!!!

Expression Brian, for all I know he could be a proffesor! :shock:

[BrianM]

why are you soooooo keen to take talibs word as gospel

[Goldie]

Looks like Honeybrook are going out of business :lol:

[BrianM]

we might as well all give it up as we are feeding the wrong foods and storing it the wrong way

[Adam Barrett]

my harris is mainly being fed rabbit with the occasional chick and pieces of rat when the day draws a blank.

her diet is 85% rabbit and she is in A! condition who cares what all the scientist say i know she is happier with a full crop of warm bunny than 5 oz of quail meat which will both bring her back to flying weight the next day!!!

[ColdZero]

I don't see how all but the most fortunate can avoid using frozen food, but i agree chicks shouldn't be the staple diet for any hawk. Everyone agrees that you shouldn't feed 100% chick to young hawks as they grow up with a poor bone structure if nothing else. I think my hawk deserves better than this as a reward for a days flying. I know growing birds need a lot more high quality food, but it shows it is lacking a lot.

[Tim Laycock]

I got my Gos at 15 days. she had been fed up to this point entirely on DOC's. She was then switched to a diet of Quail,Pheasant and Rabbit, These were fed as close to "Whole animal" as I dared(only the crop and or stomach+Intestines removed) simply smashed to bits with a hatchet.
Then at 35 days she went over onto DOC's. This is how it has been ever since and we are now very close to hard penning.
There is not a single fretmark/hunger trace on this bird and her grip is simply awesome, she is also as fat as a pig.
No nutritional value my 4rse.
In my (Limited) experience thats a crock of **** :wink:

Then again Im only judging this by what I do, I don't have a ream of figures just a bird that is exactly as I would have it be.
Draw any conclusion from this that you wish.

[Kornie]

Im just Quoting, but I wouldn't argue with someone whos job is a research nutritional scientist...

I guess the freezing refers to normal freezing as opposed to blast freezing. If you want I'll put the whole PM up.

Trinity has been fine on a varied diet of chick pheasant quail and rabbit...But all that he said makes sense to me...

Alex.

[OutFlying]

Kornie,
Neil Forbes has done extensive research into dietary value of DOC's and found then to be suitable for most hawks. MOST breeders in the country feed their breeding hawks and young with them. I would have thought Neil would value his worldwide reputation and not published factually incorrect data about the food value of DOCS when used for falconry.

OF.

[Boobook]

Jiff, I was speaking to talib, who is reasearch nutritional scientist and has studied all this at his lab:

He told me that he personaly has found that DOCs, gutted or ungutted are of almost no nutritional value to birds of prey. He has found quail and pigeon to be the best source of food and he gets them fresh. He also added that the freezing of food causes irreversable chemical reactions in the food very similar to cooking... and if possible should be avoided.

So feed as little DOCs as you can folks, besides you can trust him, hes a doctor!

Not an expert but this all sounds a bit suss to me - are you sure?
From a nutrition advice web site:
Freezing
The nutrient value of a food is retained when it is frozen. Any nutrient losses are due to the processing prior to freezing and the cooking once the frozen food is thawed.

[Ian Wileman]

I wonder folks, if chicks cost £1.00 each rather than the couple of pence they cost now, whether people would have such a negative attitude towards them. Cheap does not mean 'bad', just as expensive does that mean 'good'. YOU are the nutritionalist doing YOUR research on a dialy basis, looking after YOUR birds. YOU SHOULD now whether your bird is healthy (or you shouldnt own a bird!), after all, YOU spend all the time you can afford ensuring YOUR bird is getting a diet that suits it (or once again, you should not have a bird). YOUR judement is vital in this situation. I feed my birds doc's on a regular basis (almost every day of the week). I also feed rat and mouse with these docs (almost daily). My birds are positively gleaming thanks. I am more than happy with their condition, and they are producing a beautiful set of feathers in the moult (yet again). Nothing wrong with doc's.

Jiff, I too use dried ferret food (Frankie Ferret), but this last couple of months I have mixed it equally with a dried cat food. Mainly 'cause I had so many kits to feed. I compared the nutritional analysis on the backs of both and they are almost identical (the ferret is 2% higher in protein). The ferret food is only very slighty higher in ALL its ingredients than this particular cat food. My ferrets are fine. In fact they are doing very well, particularly the jills, who are back in condition having reared their young. If you are interested, I will let you know the name of this cat food, but cannot till I get my next bag in a couple of weeks. The difference is about £20 a bag - i.e. Frankie ferret = £28.00 a bag, Cat food = £8 bag (I think). I also feed my ferrets rabbit, pigeon (when available), DOC's two or three times a week, and if I make myself scrambled egg the get a helping of that too.

Freezing of food - why do you think companies make such a big deal of telling us all how their vegetables are frozen as soon as they are picked? To let us now they loose nutritional content? I think not!

[Jiff]

i wouldnt agree that d.o.c's have no neutritional value at all, i mean lets face it if you ate s**t it would have some neutrtional value, and i didnt want to spark the old traditional for and against debate, i just thaught sky was hungry alot quicker when fed d.o.c's as aposed to the same amount of rat or quail just an obsivation guy's. o and by the way, i mentioned a road kill deer, if you find one don't be tempted to treat you're bird to some, i did that and it took ages to get her weight back down what a plonker. as for food been frozen i have to agree that it's the process of freezing and the ammount of time the food is frozen for which decreeses it's value, 3 months max i think, which now brings the debateable subject of freezing food to make it safe, i've heard it said that feathered game should be frozen for three months to make it totaly safe to feed to you're bird without the risk of passing on desiese, if that is true, and the statement about freezing for three months reduces the neutritional value then what would be the point. maybe the people who tell me to freeze pigeons and such for three months should just dig a little deeper for a bit more commitment, use a knife make the game safe and feed it fresh.
best wishes guys and i'll see some of you tommorow :lol:

[Talib]

OutFlying wrote:
It seems Neal Forbes has it all wrong then


Neil Forbes wrote the following in his "Falcon Information Sheet No 1
- Feeding Raptors" - viewable at:
http://www.lansdown-vets.co.uk/pdf/Falcon%20info%20sheet%201%20-%20Feeding.pdf

"General Aims
To feed a diet as similar to the consumers
natural prey species that the bird would enjoy
in the wild, whilst at the same time ensuring
the correct food quantity, quality,
wholesomeness and storage methods."

Perhaps somebody could tell me which comes closer to Neil Forbes'
above quoted "ideal" raptor diet - previously frozen day-old chicks,
or still warm, freshly-killed quail or pigeon???

Day-old chicks fed exclusively to a bird of prey make the hawk/falcon
dull, listless, and low in condition. The birds are weaker, less
disease resistant and less able to stand up to the stresses of a
falconry regime. They are however, easier to train and keep docile and
malleable... like Japanese prisoners of war in WW2.


Feed a higher quality diet to a bird of prey and training becomes more
difficult, birds are stroppy, more independent, headstrong, and less
forgiving of the shortfalls of the falconer. They however, fly faster,
farther, are stronger, have greater disease resistance, and are less
likely to become injured whilst being flown.

Funny how falconers insist when eating the wild game that their birds have caught that it is much better nutritionally than the bland supermarket chicken from Tesco's, yet feed their hawks/falcons on DOC's - the equivalent of supermarket chicken... go figure.

Talib

[OutFlying]

Very good Talib,
Why not quote from his work on DOCs, what did he say on their nutritional value ?

OF

[Talib]

OutFlying wrote:
Why not quote from his work on DOCs, what did he say on their nutritional value ?

Do you mean the Honeybrook sales pitch booklet? The one he co-wrote with Colin Flint... who happened to be Honeybrook's sales manager at the time?

Talib

[Tim Laycock]

Do you mean the Honeybrook sales pitch booklet? The one he co-wrote with Colin Flint... who happened to be Honeybrook's sales manager at the time?
Does this mean that it is any less factual?
Honeybrook do sell other foods in addition to DOC's. Why would they plug a less expensive option to this extent?
It is not as thought they have any difficulty in moving DOC stock!

[Adam Barrett]

speaking of honey brook they are now selling frozen piglets!!
:roll:

[MickeyDredd]

Should we get a couple for the Birthday Bash barbie? :lol: :lol:

[Talib]

Blackbird wrote:
Does this mean that it is any less factual?
Honeybrook do sell other foods in addition to DOC's. Why would they plug a less expensive option to this extent?
It is not as thought they have any difficulty in moving DOC stock!

If I was buying a car and went into a Ford dealers and picked up a new car brochure I wouldn't believe everything in there as gospel...
Guess it must be li'l ole sceptical me...

Talib

[ColdZero]

Talib has a very strong point. I am pretty sure Honeybrook want to sell as many DOC as they can, they still have the 3000 deal for lower prices, what they don't sell gets thrown away.

[BrianM]

CZ are you talibs bitch

[Tim Laycock]

If I was buying a car and went into a Ford dealers and picked up a new car brochure I wouldn't believe everything in there as gospel...
Guess it must be li'l ole sceptical me...
I know exactly where you are coming from Talib but I can not agree in this case.

[Talib]

Boobook wrote,
Not an expert but this all sounds a bit suss to me - are you sure?
From a nutrition advice web site:
Freezing
The nutrient value of a food is retained when it is frozen. Any nutrient losses are due to the processing prior to freezing and the cooking once the frozen food is thawed.

When meat (flesh) is frozen, ice crystals form within and between cells. As the cells and organs expand/contract due to freezing they rupture and upon thawing their constituent chemical parts become mixed and contaminated with the chemicals from adjoining parts... when chemicals are mixed you get chemical reactions, some chemicals change and become unabsorbable by the consuming BOP.

Microscopically, previously frozen flesh becomes mush upon thawing with hundreds of chemical reactions taking place that alter the previous (unfrozen) nutritional balance of the food item.

Ever wondered why a freshly killed and opened pigeon has red flesh and a previously frozen pigeon has dark brown flesh? That is an example of just one sequence of chemical reactions altering flesh due to freezing.

Talib

[GriffMJ]

ok....so how often do we feed live food to keep the falcon in a reasonable condition? If a DOC diet is to poor.... then is a "warm" feed recomended once every week?

[ColdZero]

CZ are you talibs bitch

:evil: :lol:

no, but i feel strongly that DOC shouldn't be the main diet of a BOP. I trust tailb as it is his job, just like how i would trust a doctor to treat a patient without me thinking i know better. I don't see how freezing can cause any negative effect though, as there must of been extensive research over the years since humans eat so much of it.

[BrianM]

CZ i dont think in all the time that ive been on the forum i have ever heard ANYBODY say that DOCs should be the main food for your hawk...,, this seems to be a post over nothing if you ask me

[Talib]

ColdZero wrote:
I don't see how freezing can cause any negative effect though, as there must of been extensive research over the years since humans eat so much of it.

All the work regarding freezing and its effects on the nutritional values of pre-frozen foods has been almost exclusively for human nutrition.
They freeze some food, thaw it, COOK it, and then estimate its nutritional content. Since we don't feed cooked meat to birds of prey, this research has no relevance for estimating the nutritional content of pre-frozen UNCOOKED meat products.

Talib

[OutFlying]

Talib,
Is Neil Forbes incorrect with his findings ? - a straight answer for once - if possible...............

OF.

[BlueHawk]

Would it not be more interesting and informative to post what effects different foods have, i.e pigeon gets the blood up, but is this just in falcons? Rats give X percentage weight gain as opposed to DOC or rabbit? etc etc...

I'm afraid the DOC's are good/bad debate is a bit dull, 30,000 falconers can't be wrong....

[OutFlying]

Jiff, I was speaking to talib, who is reasearch nutritional scientist and has studied all this at his lab:

He told me that he personaly has found that DOCs, gutted or ungutted are of almost no nutritional value to birds of prey. He has found quail and pigeon to be the best source of food and he gets them fresh. He also added that the freezing of food causes irreversable chemical reactions in the food very similar to cooking... and if possible should be avoided.

So feed as little DOCs as you can folks, besides you can trust him, hes a doctor!

The above quote states that Doc's have NO or little nutritional value - this seems to go against Neil Forbes work (whatever commision for). It not a question are they the best food but are they adequate. We await Talib's reply to further enlighten us.

[Wilfred]

I'm afraid the DOC's are good/bad debate is a bit dull, 30,000 falconers can't be wrong....

Well this discussion DOC's good/bad is not a dull discussion and I think a lot of falconers are not wrong but doing the wrong thing giving too much DOC's. I myself try to give them as less as possible. But am still doing the wrong thing since i freeze and I am actually also very convinced that fresh meat is much healthier. And since i read this post I am convinced also about the chemical process reasoning. And actually no BOP in the wild would get frozen food on regular basis and also in the ancient times there were no fridges. So just think about it all of you...i myself also can not get life food all the time but will try to get as much as possible fresh.

[Talib]

OutFlying wrote:
The above quote states that Doc's have NO or little nutritional value - this seems to go against Neil Forbes work (whatever commision for). It not a question are they the best food but are they adequate.

Neil Forbes has stated in Q&A sessions, and in written replies on another forum that DOC's with the yolk sac removed are deficient in nutrients essential for a healthy BOP.

Regarding BOP's complete with yolk sacs, he stated that they were JUST good enough for BOP's as a maintenance diet where there is no additional nutritional requirements over and above the bare minimum, such as in periods of growth, egg-laying, moulting, stress, etc.

Apparently, according to Neil Forbes, it depends on whether the DOC's yolk sac is fed or not as to whether DOC's just scrape in as adequate nutrition for BOP's.

Now it doesn't need a degree in rocket science to work out that not many BOP's swallow complete DOC's whole. That sticky gunge over the glove, blocks, perches and floors of pens is the difference between a BOP receiving a JUST barely adequate diet and one deficient in essential nutrients.

So, if you have BOP's that are fed complete DOC's that never leave any traces of yolk after they have been feeding then they are receiving a JUST ABOUT adequate diet. Of course, the opposite is true if the yolk is getting left on gloves and perches, etc.

Talib

[ColdZero]

CZ i dont think in all the time that ive been on the forum i have ever heard ANYBODY say that DOCs should be the main food for your hawk...,, this seems to be a post over nothing if you ask me

If you feed chicks 4 days a week, it is their main diet, and i am positive nearly everyone feeds more than that....certainly all the centers and people i have spoken to. Its just my opinion, but i don't think its a natural or healthy diet. Might be ok with vitamin suplements.

[Smyril]

[quote="BlueHawk"]Would it not be more interesting and informative to post what effects different foods have, i.e pigeon gets the blood up, but is this just in falcons? Rats give X percentage weight gain as opposed to DOC or rabbit? etc etc...

Can't find that info. but this site has, presumably unbiased, nutritional information on different foods

http://www.themodernapprentice.com/nutrition.htm

[Talib]

Smyril wrote:
Can't find that info. but this site has, presumably unbiased, nutritional information on different foods

http://www.themodernapprentice.com/nutrition.htm

The comments on feeding DOC's are very interesting...

Talib

[Tim Laycock]

(Shrug shoulders) :|

[Smyril]

The comments on feeding DOC's are very interesting...

It certainly doesn't say that they have NO nutritional value. As most posts suggest that DOCs are being used with the addition of different foodstuffs/supplements, I don't see what the problem is.

[Talib]

Smyril wrote:
It certainly doesn't say that they have NO nutritional value. As most posts suggest that DOCs are being used with the addition of different foodstuffs/supplements, I don't see what the problem is.

Boy, some of you guys are hard work...
Nowhere at any time have I stated that DOC's have NO nutritional value.
I simply stated they had less than ideal levels of essential nutrients.
Below is a copy of the text I sent to Kornie:

"I don't feed day-old chicks - they are deficient in almost every nutrient known to be essential for birds of prey.
I also never feed previously frozen food - freezing causes irreversible chemical reactions that alters the availability and utilisation of many nutrients for the bird of prey. Cooking does the same, you wouldn't feed cooked meat to a BOP so why feed it previously frozen?
I only feed freshly killed food animals, mostly quail and pigeon that have been reared upon natural diets, to birds of prey.
I also supplement this diet with extra nutrients, captive birds of prey eat smaller quantities of food than their wild relatives because of their reduced activity - supplementing the diet with extra nutrients helps to provide a diet similar the one the BOP would be obtaining if it was in a natural wild state. "

That is how the birds I am responsible for are fed.
Now if some of you guys think you can justify feeding **** food... fine, go ahead. However, I think I'll carry on feeding my birds my way.

Talib

[BrianM]

this is an argument over nothing....

[OutFlying]

Smyril wrote:
It certainly doesn't say that they have NO nutritional value. As most posts suggest that DOCs are being used with the addition of different foodstuffs/supplements, I don't see what the problem is.

Boy, some of you guys are hard work...
Nowhere at any time have I stated that DOC's have NO nutritional value.
I simply stated they had less than ideal levels of essential nutrients.
Below is a copy of the text I sent to Kornie:

"I don't feed day-old chicks - they are deficient in almost every nutrient known to be essential for birds of prey.
I also never feed previously frozen food - freezing causes irreversible chemical reactions that alters the availability and utilisation of many nutrients for the bird of prey. Cooking does the same, you wouldn't feed cooked meat to a BOP so why feed it previously frozen?
I only feed freshly killed food animals, mostly quail and pigeon that have been reared upon natural diets, to birds of prey.
I also supplement this diet with extra nutrients, captive birds of prey eat smaller quantities of food than their wild relatives because of their reduced activity - supplementing the diet with extra nutrients helps to provide a diet similar the one the BOP would be obtaining if it was in a natural wild state. "

That is how the birds I am responsible for are fed.
Now if some of you guys think you can justify feeding **** food... fine, go ahead. However, I think I'll carry on feeding my birds my way.

Talib

Thanks Talib,
Looks like you where quoted wrong in the first instance, glad you finally cleared it up.

Jim.

[Kornie]

this is an argument over nothing....

Yes,

Just learn from someone better informed then you. There is a hell of a lot of very informative info on this thread and instead of taking it in, you argue...

I was very very busy yesterday, dusk til dawn. I was planning on putting talibs PM up. And I did only say what I did for the benifit of those reading.

Outflying, I didn't say they had nod nutritional value...

(thanks Talib)

[Tim Laycock]

this is an argument over nothing
I totaly agree Brian. Its of no consequence to me and mine at any rate :D

[Boobook]

When meat (flesh) is frozen, ice crystals form within and between cells. As the cells and organs expand/contract due to freezing they rupture and upon thawing their constituent chemical parts become mixed and contaminated with the chemicals from adjoining parts... when chemicals are mixed you get chemical reactions, some chemicals change and become unabsorbable by the consuming BOP.

Microscopically, previously frozen flesh becomes mush upon thawing with hundreds of chemical reactions taking place that alter the previous (unfrozen) nutritional balance of the food item.

Ever wondered why a freshly killed and opened pigeon has red flesh and a previously frozen pigeon has dark brown flesh? That is an example of just one sequence of chemical reactions altering flesh due to freezing.

Talib

As I said I am far from expert so I am always grateful of advice - but this goes against everything I have been told and read.

I understand that freezing physically damages cells but I also understood that freezing does not damage the majority of nutrients (I quoted a govt. statement about it in my last post). Can you point me at a reference about the problems with freezing cos this has me worried.

I have always been told that frozen DOCs are OK for the bulk of the diet but must be supplemented with other species and vitamins/minerals.
Boobook gets about 70% DOCs and the rest is mice, quail, spiders, insects etc. She also gets a regular sprinkle of raptor essentials.

If I'm doing something wrong will someone please advise.
Thanks.