Finnish Goshawk Size?

[Hawkmaster]

Could someone amounst you please tell me, seeing as I seriously need to start considering the future of my female German/Finnish Gos? For the next season, if this one does not pan out the way I expect it to.

How come some people breed huge finnish birds and the next year or two later they are as small as any German bird from the same breeding pair, the same breeder and with similar competent and experienced falconers :?:

[Pete Sibson]

Six or seven years ago there was only around six true finnish bloodlines in the u.k now there seems to be dozens which could mean throwbacks from european blood crossing with the finnish or it could be its not cold enough in the u.k in comparison with finnland or other parts of the northern hemisphere the colder it is the bigger the body size needs to be to cope with the weather conditions.....

[Finnish]

So what are you saying if we get a hot breeding season the birds will be smaller.

Finnish

[Shaun Byrne]

So what are you saying if we get a hot breeding season the birds will be smaller.

Finnish

I wouldn't think it would work that quick Finnish. I would have thought it would be a gradual effect over a few generations.

Does anyone know if there has been any research into this.

[OutFlying]

Could someone amounst you please tell me, seeing as I seriously need to start considering the future of my female German/Finnish Gos? For the next season, if this one does not pan out the way I expect it to.

How come some people breed huge finnish birds and the next year or two later they are as small as any German bird from the same breeding pair, the same breeder and with similar competent and experienced falconers :?:

Are you saying they are the same physical size i.e dimensions or similar avairy weights or flying weights ? If a Finnish gos is flown at the same weight as a german and in the same state of condition then something is VERY wrong.

Jim.

[Tim Laycock]

There seems to be more Finnish birds on the market than Europeans.

IMHO a lot of breeders are pedaling bullshit and people are buying into it!,Wholesale!!!

My gos is allegedly "Pure Finnish"! She weighs 2lb 6oz.

Pure Finnish my hoop!!! :roll:

[Pete Sibson]

Yes i do think finnish birds are getting smaller but if it is down to the warmer weather in england it certainly wouldn`t make any difference over a 12 month period.

Goshawks in finland are not all huge some are small and some are very big and all because somebody breeds from big gosses doesn`t necessarily mean the offspring will be the same, some are small and some are big the the same as wild finnish goshawks.

[M & J Raptors]

There seems to be more Finnish birds on the market than Europeans.

IMHO a lot of breeders are pedaling bullshit and people are buying into it!,Wholesale!!!

My gos is allegedly "Pure Finnish"! She weighs 2lb 6oz.

Pure Finnish my hoop!!! :roll:

BB

Not a bad size for a male though. :wink:

[Shaun Byrne]

There seems to be more Finnish birds on the market than Europeans.

IMHO a lot of breeders are pedaling bullshit and people are buying into it!,Wholesale!!!

My gos is allegedly "Pure Finnish"! She weighs 2lb 6oz.

Pure Finnish my hoop!!! :roll:

BB

Not a bad size for a male though. :wink:

:shock: :D :D

[Tim Laycock]

Not a bad size for a male though.
:mrgreen: :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

My gos is allegedly "Pure Finnish"! She weighs 2lb 6oz
It is just part of my point, mine is from a Finnish line too, but now it turns out she is German/Finnish, most other folks tell me NO WAY most certainly only German?

Are all Finnish birds throwing back smaller birds occaisionally? Because I am sure there are not that many 2 lbs odd males and 3 lbs odd females?

[OutFlying]

There aren't any 2lb parent reared males and not heard of many 3lb + females p/r (true hunting weights not avairy weights).

What size do you class as Finnish Hawkmaster ? - German males 1-6ish females 2-1, 2-2 ish.

I'd say an average (an ounce or so either way) p/r finnish male 1-12, 13 second season. Finnish female p/r above 2-9 end of first season. All weights parent reared and good hunting weights not response weights. NOT IMPRINT WEIGHTS.

OF.

[Hawkmaster]

YEs male I would have thought 1-12 and females 2-10 at least. But there are cases of people having birds that are heavier and then some just don't compare and could be classes as German?

[OutFlying]

Yes there are heavier gosses but not many, a pure Finnish or even finnish cross will be way above a normal german goshawk.

What's your imprint female flying at and what condition is she in, i.e breast bone and wing muscle status.

OF.

ps Never seen a p/r male fly at / above 2lb, I've flown one at 1-14 1/2 still going up (aviary weight 2-3) but he was flown everyday nearly and caught most days before being killed mid second season. This was a totally parent reared gos not an imprint, creche reared or reared by an imprint gos etc.

[Hawkmaster]

2-5 not too badly muscled, but found because she is an imprint I COULD FLY HER AT 2-8 right at the end of the season, but not with the best dissapline. So if she was PR she would only be a normal German? But she comes from a man that has never use anything other than at least half Finnish birds.

[OutFlying]

She's only small and definitely not full Finnish. If you use goshawk crosses they can throw to either parent gos or even grandparents so if a german was ever used then small gosses are possible from larger parents.

The weight you quoted - 1/4 finnish crosses produce gosses of this size p/r, so if she imprinted well and correctly 2-5 isn't a great weight for a 1/2 finnish female.

But I seem to remember you didn't catch a lot with her so maybe confidence is low, if you had good success with her then the weight may raise quite a bit.

[Hawkmaster]

True the problem, was no dog, so lack of quarry and I did not want to go and do the pheasant thing as there we could have caught 10 a day but this may just be what I am going to do this year and I want to reach at least 50 head.

[OutFlying]

Difficult flights with good results far outweighs dross killed in high numbers for the mental conditioning of a gos. Make the flights difficult but within her capabilities.

[Wightwings]

excellent thread i have to say.......my new Finnish male came out of the aviary 2 lb 1 3/4 oz with an empty crop to i am presuming this is a good average weight. first season i am expecting around 1.9 flying weight but in truth this may be ambicous.......after intermewing who knows

[Hawkmaster]

Difficult flights with good results far outweighs dross killed in high numbers for the mental conditioning of a gos. Make the flights difficult but within her capabilities.
That was why I never took them on they were too easy for her, flights lasted seconds, off the fist she could take them in the air or as they make in, so we tried for other quarry instead.

my new Finnish male came out of the aviary 2 lb 1 3/4 oz with an empty crop
See at that weight, I would expecthim to be at least 1-12?

[Goldie]

excellent thread i have to say.......my new Finnish male came out of the aviary 2 lb 1 3/4 oz with an empty crop to i am presuming this is a good average weight. first season i am expecting around 1.9 flying weight but in truth this may be ambicous.......after intermewing who knows

Will be very surprised if you have to take him that low

[Tim Laycock]

I thought similar. (Not judging) :D

[OutFlying]

It will go lower than 1-12 to get him going, and I'd be VERY surprised if he finished his first season any higher than this.

I've had 2 males from these lines, mine was 2-3 out the aviary. Finished first season 1-11 3/4 he did fly higher but this was his best weight. Second season 1-14 1/2. A friend has also flown and is still flying a male from these lines - 1-10 1/2 first season, 1-13 1/2 second season. Not many p/r males will fly initially at 1-12, response yes hunting correctly no. These initial high aviary weights are fat weights not true size weights.

WW, if you ask Chris / Don I think they will tell you the same. I would hazard a guess of flying free at 1-9 1/2 + or - 1/2 oz.

OF.

[OutFlying]

Difficult flights with good results far outweighs dross killed in high numbers for the mental conditioning of a gos. Make the flights difficult but within her capabilities.
That was why I never took them on they were too easy for her, flights lasted seconds, off the fist she could take them in the air or as they make in, so we tried for other quarry instead.

my new Finnish male came out of the aviary 2 lb 1 3/4 oz with an empty crop
See at that weight, I would expecthim to be at least 1-12?

If she was taking pheasants so easy and so quick, one of 2 things was happening. First your too close for the slip or they were poor pheasants. Late season pheasants given a decent slip are never easy, pheasants taken on the rise or very early in flight are very easy.

[Wightwings]

cheers guys...some good reading there.

I do intend to enter him on fur so expect him to be a little sharper to do so.

I i get close to some of the weights quoted above i will be more than happy.

Chris

[Hawkmaster]

If she was taking pheasants so easy and so quick, one of 2 things was happening. First your too close for the slip or they were poor pheasants. Late season pheasants given a decent slip are never easy, pheasants taken on the rise or very early in flight are very easy.
Far too many of them and they were really stupid, so you could not get longer slips, hence me not taking them on.

[Pete Smith]

Question? What does a 20lb Super Antarctic Gos do better than a 1lb 13oz female?
Ans: Nothing!! (Oh... of course it doesn't pump the left arm up as much)

What is the pre-occupation with size? If you attend a field meet and your hawk wipes the arse off every thing else.... people remember, no-one will give a stuff what size it is.
If you need size...get a Condor, they-re pretty big cant go wrong there.
Pete.

[Tim Laycock]

:lol: Pmsl

[Hawkmaster]

Question? What does a 20lb Super Antarctic Gos do better than a 1lb 13oz female?
Ans: Nothing!! (Oh... of course it doesn't pump the left arm up as much)

What is the pre-occupation with size? If you attend a field meet and your hawk wipes the **** off every thing else.... people remember, no-one will give a stuff what size it is.
If you need size...get a Condor, they-re pretty big cant go wrong there.
Pete.
Fair enough Pete, but you missing my point. This is not a question of wanting a big bird, if you have read my previous post I have no desire for it at all, my first European Goshawk proved that as I bought him because he was 1-13/4 at flying weight.

This is a question of the price people charge for FINNISH birds even though they are not that size. So one is able to buy a 2-6oz bird and it is German, but sold as Finnish or comes from Finnish lines, but because there is not the size it is branded as a German. It all boils down to why does this size thing happen? Flooded and over rated bloodlines? So as you can see we actually agree. :lol:

[OutFlying]

Question? What does a 20lb Super Antarctic Gos do better than a 1lb 13oz female?
Ans: Nothing!! (Oh... of course it doesn't pump the left arm up as much)
Pete.

Answer number 2 - breed males that are also large that can take all quarry. Don't think there'd be many takers for the males off a 1-13 female, you couldn't give them away.


Never had a desire to fly a large female, a finnish male does everything that I need BUT without large females you be f*cked trying to get a decent sized male. Or would we all have to fly females whether small or large ?
Jim.

[Tim Laycock]

you couldn't give them away
You could give them to me if you like!:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: