Eggs

[PlantBreeder]

I do have a good reason for asking this, so when you have all finished

rolling about on the floor, pis sing yourselves with laughter, please try

to give a serious answer.

Does anybody ever offer Ferrugi, Redtail, or Ferrutail eggs for hatching?

If you would prefer to remain anonymous, please PM me, or send your
replies in a brown paper package to .......

[Sean D]

I do have a good reason for asking this, so when you have all finished

rolling about on the floor, pis sing yourselves with laughter, please try

to give a serious answer.

Does anybody ever offer Ferrugi, Redtail, or Ferrutail eggs for hatching?

If you would prefer to remain anonymous, please PM me, or send your
replies in a brown paper package to .......

Something similar has been asked on here before and it seems that Parrot eggs do change hands,but bop eggs don't

[PlantBreeder]

Something similar has been asked on here before and it seems that Parrot eggs do change hands,but bop eggs don't

It is quite logical when you think about it, if a breeder wants to introduce
a particular strain to his stock, rather than the expense of purchasing a
bird, it is much simpler, and transport would be far easier, particularly
for imported stock.
I have noted a fair bit of comment regarding poor eyesight in the Ferrugi,
and this seems to be blamed on too close breeding of related stock, but
if some eggs were flown in from the US, there would be a fresh injection
of bloodlines. The same would apply for the Coopers, the Black Spar, and
a host of other 'exotics'.

[Tommy No Mates]

Hi Tim,how are things going,Im not sure of the resrictions on the transport of eggs from countries outside the EU,perhaps someone could shead some light on the subject for you?


It is quite logical when you think about it, if a breeder wants to introduce
a particular strain to his stock, rather than the expense of purchasing a
bird, it is much simpler, and transport would be far easier, particularly
for imported stock.
I have noted a fair bit of comment regarding poor eyesight in the Ferrugi,
and this seems to be blamed on too close breeding of related stock, but
if some eggs were flown in from the US, there would be a fresh injection
of bloodlines. The same would apply for the Coopers, the Black Spar, and
a host of other 'exotics'.

[Tony James]

It is quite logical when you think about it, if a breeder wants to introduce
a particular strain to his stock, rather than the expense of purchasing a
bird, it is much simpler, and transport would be far easier, particularly
for imported stock.
I have noted a fair bit of comment regarding poor eyesight in the Ferrugi,
and this seems to be blamed on too close breeding of related stock, but
if some eggs were flown in from the US, there would be a fresh injection
of bloodlines. The same would apply for the Coopers, the Black Spar, and
a host of other 'exotics'.

Even if you found breeders happy to sell eggs, aside from the practical difficulties, I don't imagine the cost of a fertile egg would be hugely different to a healthy young eyass. But the potential for you to end up with nothing for your money is high.

[Tommy No Mates]

Hi Tony,you have a very good point regarding costings and risk ,but I think Tim is more concerned with blood lines and such.



#Even if you found breeders happy to sell eggs, aside from the practical difficulties, I don't imagine the cost of a fertile egg would be hugely different to a healthy young eyass. But the potential for you to end up with nothing for your money is high.

[PlantBreeder]

I did contact DEFRA and CITES UK, and they sent me loads of paperwork.
As far as I can decipher, this is the situation re imports from the US.
Reading through there are the inevitable 101 hoops you have to jump through,
typical of any government body.
In principal they are not against it, but then impose a load of restrictions that
serve to bump the cost up to a point where it becomes non-viable.
1. Birds for import must be quarantined 1 month in country of origin.
2. Birds must be securely crated, and these must not be opened until the
destination quarantine quarters are reached.
3. Birds must be accompanied the entire journey by a qualified handler.
(although if they are sealed in a crate, I wonder what he is supposed to do)
4. On arrival they must be further quarantined for 3 months, and be blood
tested as often as the ministry vets deem fit.
5. You may only import a maximum of 5 birds at a time.

However, there is mention of eggs for hatching. Obviously they cannot be
quarantined for a month, would not require elaborate crating, have no need
to be accompanied, and there seems to be no limitation on numbers.
I wrote to DEFRA and CITES for confirmation on these points 2 weeks ago,
there has been no reply.

My interest is simply that of sourcing fresh genetic material to bolster the
UK breeding stocks, to minimise the risk of defects due to inbreeding. As
such this is something that would benefit most of us.

[Tommy No Mates]

Tim , well researched mate, please let me know any more info you have on the egg side of this ,I have an interest, be it a small one ATVB TNM


I did contact DEFRA and CITES UK, and they sent me loads of paperwork.
As far as I can decipher, this is the situation re imports from the US.
Reading through there are the inevitable 101 hoops you have to jump through,
typical of any government body.
In principal they are not against it, but then impose a load of restrictions that
serve to bump the cost up to a point where it becomes non-viable.
1. Birds for import must be quarantined 1 month in country of origin.
2. Birds must be securely crated, and these must not be opened until the
destination quarantine quarters are reached.
3. Birds must be accompanied the entire journey by a qualified handler.
(although if they are sealed in a crate, I wonder what he is supposed to do)
4. On arrival they must be further quarantined for 3 months, and be blood
tested as often as the ministry vets deem fit.
5. You may only import a maximum of 5 birds at a time.

However, there is mention of eggs for hatching. Obviously they cannot be
quarantined for a month, would not require elaborate crating, have no need
to be accompanied, and there seems to be no limitation on numbers.
I wrote to DEFRA and CITES for confirmation on these points 2 weeks ago,
there has been no reply.

My interest is simply that of sourcing fresh genetic material to bolster the
UK breeding stocks, to minimise the risk of defects due to inbreeding. As
such this is something that would benefit most of us.

[PlantBreeder]

Tim , well researched mate, please let
me know any more info you have on the egg side of this ,I have an interest,
be it a small one ATVB TNM

Tommy, I knew there would be those that thought my question was a joke,
same as a few years ago captive breeding was, and then AI was, but now
it is commonplace.
Yes it's true the parrot fanciers exchange eggs, and there is no reason
whatever why bop breeders cannot do the same, once they get their heads
out of the sand and wake up!
The cost comparison is straightforward;-

Live Birds - Supply + Quarantine + Crating + Air freight + Escort, including
his air fare, and expenses + Further quarantine + Veterinary inspections +
Blood tests. Plus the limitation of numbers, forcing unit price up further.

Hatching eggs - Supply + Cleaning shell + packaging + Freight + Hatching.
Plus, larger numbers will reduce unit price.

I was thinking of the possibility of groups of interested parties getting
together to import batches of them. It does not take a genius to see the
potential.

I will be writing to the governing bodies, yet again, seeking a response.

[Steve.T]

I asked a simlar question a while ago.

I know people that send canary,pigeon and poultry eggs all over europe, so i thought i would ask if bop breeders would sell and send eggs, got told in no uncertain terms..."NO WAY"

[PlantBreeder]

I asked a simlar question a while ago.

I know people that send canary,pigeon and poultry eggs all over europe, so i thought i would ask if bop breeders would sell and send eggs, got told in no uncertain terms..."NO WAY"

Yes, I know, Steve, but there is no logical reason why not,
once folks get their heads out of their ar*es and wake up
to the tremendous potential.
I can only put it down to an irrational fear of something new.

[Steve.T]

It opens up a whole new world of potential, i personaly have sent canary eggs to Ireland,spain,malta and canada.

All the eggs to europe hatched and were successfully reared, the eggs to canada however, seemed to have suffered what i discribe as the bends, when cracked open for inspection the egg was full of bubbles (like fizzy pop)i put this down to altitude, flights brom uk to europe fly at much lower altitude than those to canada and the states ect...

Eggs being sent to these locations would need to be in pressurised insulated containers to cope with high altitude and freezing temps in the hold.....

[PlantBreeder]

It opens up a whole new world of potential, i personaly have sent canary eggs to Ireland,spain,malta and canada.
All the eggs to europe hatched and were successfully reared, the eggs to canada however, seemed to have suffered what i discribe as the bends, when cracked open for inspection the egg was full of bubbles (like fizzy pop)i put this down to altitude, flights brom uk to europe fly at much lower altitude than those to canada and the states ect...
Eggs being sent to these locations would need to be in pressurised insulated containers to cope with high altitude and freezing temps in the hold.....

These are simple questions of mechanics, nothing particularly difficult to
overcome. A simple sealed metal canister with suitable insulation would
serve the purpose. The temp and pressure within the canister would remain
constant.
I sometimes get the impression that many breeders want to 'play' at the
game, but none are ready to do it seriously. It's as though the very thought
of using basic scientific principals sends them into a panic. Well, regardless
if they like it or not, it will happen, and they can get with the program or be
left behind.

[AlexB]

Tim,

I can some sense in the question posed, but if you were to purchase and egg from a breeder which when leaving his place was viable and going well. Suddenly died within the shell would you expect a refund of costs or would you take it on the chin? I think the reason many or almost all breeders wouldn't do this is because of the probable backlash that would or could come from it.

It would if it were possible to get breeders to do so alleviate some of the export problems.

ATB

Alex

[PlantBreeder]

Tim,
I can some sense in the question posed, but if you were to purchase and egg from a breeder which when leaving his place was viable and going well. Suddenly died within the shell would you expect a refund of costs or would you take it on the chin? I think the reason many or almost all breeders wouldn't do this is because of the probable backlash that would or could come from it.
It would if it were possible to get breeders to do so alleviate some of the export problems.
ATB
Alex

All it requires, Alex, is the same degree of professional conduct as shown by
the parrot, pigeon, chicken breeders, are we any less capable than they ??
Are we so backward thinking that we are not at least equal to a pigeon fancier?

My initial interest was sparked by the scarcity of unrelated Coopers and Ferrugis
in the UK, a situation that could be remedied by importing, say, a
few dozen eggs of each from the US. After all, they are very common out
there, and do not appear on any endangered lists or lists of special concern,
so there should be little problem getting it organised. True, some may not
hatch, but provided they can be got in sufficient numbers, and the unit cost
can be kept relatively low, it would not be a cause for concern.
Once the system is established, some of the rarer species could be considered.

[PlantBreeder]

I asked a simlar question a while ago.
I know people that send canary,pigeon and poultry eggs all over europe, so i thought i would ask if bop breeders would sell and send eggs, got told in no uncertain terms..."NO WAY"

May the fates preserve us from narrow minded, myopic, unimaginative people
who refuse to see beyond the end of their arrogant, stuck up noses.

So often I see falconers going on about how they want to see their beloved
sport survive, yet at the same time they are reluctant to do anything that
could serve to revitalise and protect the very birds they profess to care about.

If parrot, canary, pigeon and poultry breeders can get their act together,
but falconers are so self-obsessed that they will not lift a finger, then perhaps
they deserve to come to an end. What an ignominious conclusion
to a once fine tradition.

[Malar]

Very interesting thread, I for one would be interested in this method. Especially for c/b exotics, not so sure about the ferrug or coops, however related or rare, they are probably not valuable enough for the hassle!
I would think you would need viable foster parents or old imprints to help out, or you would be over run by imprinted ferrug :twisted:
If importing from southern hemisphere foster parents may be tricky :wink:

[PlantBreeder]

Very interesting thread, I for one would be interested in this method. Especially for c/b exotics, not so sure about the ferrug or coops, however related or rare, they are probably not valuable enough for the hassle!
I would think you would need viable foster parents or old imprints to help out, or you would be over run by imprinted ferrug :twisted:
If importing from southern hemisphere foster parents may be tricky :wink:

It would be sensible to start off with relatively easily obtained species, rather
than try for something very rare and valuable when you are still trying to iron
out all the problems, don't you think ?
I just feel that it is a rotten shame that so little is being done to protect the
genetic pool of the bops we have.

[UberBowman]

Zoo's run a stud book system, is there any reason we shouldn't do the same thing?
I know this doesn't diectly relate to your thread Tim, but I do feel this is something we ought to be thinking about.
As an island nation with limited access to fresh genetic material, we really do need to start addressing this issue.
Bren.

[MelB]

Zoo's run a stud book system, is there any reason we shouldn't do the same thing?
I know this doesn't diectly relate to your thread Tim, but I do feel this is something we ought to be thinking about.
As an island nation with limited access to fresh genetic material, we really do need to start addressing this issue.
Bren.

Sorry I havn't read the whole thread, but yes Bren I'm up for being a stud.:supz::heart:

[PlantBreeder]

Zoo's run a stud book system, is there any reason we shouldn't do the same thing?
I know this doesn't diectly relate to your thread Tim, but I do feel this is something we ought to be thinking about.
As an island nation with limited access to fresh genetic material, we really do need to start addressing this issue.
Bren.

Quite so, I have put up several threads relating to hybrids, with the view to
provoking some constructive discourse. I got plenty of wisecracks about
'Frankenstein birds', and 'why spoil what we've got', but what is being done to preserve what we have. I'm afraid the answer is sweet FA.
Seems people want to keep these birds, want to maintain them, yet will sit back and do nothing until it is too late. We already have reports of Ferrugis with poor eyesight, and Harris with weak leg bones, how far are we going to let things slide before we act.

[UberBowman]

Sorry I havn't read the whole thread, but yes Bren I'm up for being a stud.:supz::heart:
Fnahh fnahh.

[Steve.T]

A simple sealed metal canister with suitable insulation would
serve the purpose.

Good luck getting it through customs, when i tried to send some canary eggs to a guy in the states, i used something very similar to this, it was returned to me open, with the explanation," on the xray , it looked very suspicious, like a pipe bomb"......:lol::lol:


In the end i sent some over in a wide mouthed vacuum flask, unfortunately the guy never said if they hatched or not....:roll:

[Tony James]

It opens up a whole new world of potential

Forgive my stupidity, but how does it?
Are there restrictions on the movement of live hawks that don't apply to eggs?
If the reasoning behind the suggestion has anything to do with raising the quality of our breeding stock, then surely it's better to import something of known quality rather than gamble on saving a few quid by buying eggs?

[Steve.T]

Tony.

I think it would be a great deal easier to ship say, a gos egg from finland or germany, than to import an eyas...no quaranteen for a start.

[Tony James]

Tony.

I think it would be a great deal easier to ship say, a gos egg from finland or germany, than to import an eyas...no quaranteen for a start.

Easier to import possibly, but if I wanted to end up with an eyas gos from overseas I know which option I'd go for:yawinkle:.

[UberBowman]

Quite so, I have put up several threads relating to hybrids, with the view to
provoking some constructive discourse. I got plenty of wisecracks about
'Frankenstein birds', and 'why spoil what we've got', but what is being done to preserve what we have. I'm afraid the answer is sweet FA.
Seems people want to keep these birds, want to maintain them, yet will sit back and do nothing until it is too late. We already have reports of Ferrugis with poor eyesight, and Harris with weak leg bones, how far are we going to let things slide before we act.
True Tim,
but it's not just a question of action, it's more action with intent, integrity, and a genuine desire to improve genetic diversity.
We should not be breeding birds in the same way that we breed dogs, all of my best dogs have had some ba**ard blood in them. We all know what happens when we become too devoted to purity of strain. It's time we started thinking about how to make the best out of the genetic store we have at our disposal.
Breeding pure strains with no thought to anything other than faster, bigger, whatever is a steep and slippery slope.
It may be that we need to start thinking about the joy of mongrel ownership.
Bren.

[PlantBreeder]

Forgive my stupidity, but how does it?
Are there restrictions on the movement of live hawks that don't apply to eggs?
If the reasoning behind the suggestion has anything to do with raising the quality of our breeding stock, then surely it's better to import something of known quality rather than gamble on saving a few quid by buying eggs?

Tony, I'll try to answer each point.
Yes the rules do seem to be different, I have written to the relevant bodies to gain some clarification on this matter.
If you are looking to import stock from the US, you face the same potential
problems that you do here. Very few US falconers breed birds, they tend to rely upon a wild take, so the few that do breed are liable to have inbred stock.
The only other possible way is to import eggs gathered from the wild, and that might be opening a whole new can of worms, but you would ensure the
genetic diversity.

[MelB]

True Tim,
but it's not just a question of action, it's more action with intent, integrity, and a genuine desire to improve genetic diversity.
We should not be breeding birds in the same way that we breed dogs, all of my best dogs have had some ba**ard blood in them. We all know what happens when we become too devoted to purity of strain. It's time we started thinking about how to make the best out of the genetic store we have at our disposal.
Breeding pure strains with no thought to anything other than faster, bigger, whatever is a steep and slippery slope.
It may be that we need to start thinking about the joy of mongrel ownership.
Bren.

You think Bren, I got really slated because I thought that breeding needs to be regulated and licenced(both bird and dog) a large number of people don't give a toss. I have birds that I could easily breed from, but I won't as I think it's not my place and there are to many ****ers already doing it.

[UberBowman]

You think Bren, I got really slated because I thought that breeding needs to be regulated and licenced(both bird and dog) a large number of people don't give a toss. I have birds that I could easily breed from, but I won't as I think it's not my place and there are to many ****ers already doing it.
How many of them are doing it right?

[PlantBreeder]

Good luck getting it through customs, when i tried to send some canary eggs to a guy in the states, i used something very similar to this, it was returned to me open, with the explanation," on the xray , it looked very suspicious, like a pipe bomb"......:lol::lol:
In the end i sent some over in a wide mouthed vacuum flask, unfortunately the guy never said if they hatched or not....:roll:

Steve, I have recently sent a whole bunch of microfilm to the US, obviously I
did not want it exposed to X-rays otherwise it would have been destroyed.
You just have to fill in a declaration as to the contents. If you are sending eggs they would surely go by special courier anyway.

[Tony James]

Tony, I'll try to answer each point.
Yes the rules do seem to be different, I have written to the relevant bodies to gain some clarification on this matter.
If you are looking to import stock from the US, you face the same potential
problems that you do here. Very few US falconers breed birds, they tend to rely upon a wild take, so the few that do breed are liable to have inbred stock.
The only other possible way is to import eggs gathered from the wild, and that might be opening a whole new can of worms, but you would ensure the
genetic diversity.

I must say I struggle to take the concept seriously, particularly given our apparent inability to make use of what genetic diversity we have at our disposal in the UK at the moment.
Do we genuinely have a problem in need of rectification? Perhaps we do, but I'm not sure it stems from having too few captive hawks to breed from --- and if it did, I'd confidently suggest that eyasses of known quality would be the way to go. More expensive perhaps, but the more certain investment I think.

[MelB]

How many of them are doing it right?

My point entirely, there are those that fly a bird for two minutes and think it's time to start breeding, and then there are those that think if a bird is a bag of **** then it's only good for breeding. Sorry, but that is the last thing you need to be doing with it.:twisted:

[UberBowman]

My point entirely, there are those that fly a bird for two minutes and think it's time to start breeding, and then there are those that think if a bird is a bag of **** then it's only good for breeding. Sorry, but that is the last thing you need to be doing with it.:twisted:
Ahh, but is it Mel?
According to Mendellian principles...................
Does a poor hunter make for poor hunting offspring?
Is it due to nature or nurture?
Is not the genetic diversity/relatedness of the parents more of an issue than pure aptitude for the kill?
Just thinking out loud here.
Bren.

[PlantBreeder]

I must say I struggle to take the concept seriously, particularly given our apparent inability to make use of what genetic diversity we have at our disposal in the UK at the moment.
Do we genuinely have a problem in need of rectification? Perhaps we do, but I'm not sure it stems from having too few captive hawks to breed from --- and if it did, I'd confidently suggest that eyasses of known quality would be the way to go. More expensive perhaps, but the more certain investment I think.

Possibly Tony, but you appear to be considering this in terms of a commercial venture, with a profit and loss sheet to balance, whilst I was more concerned with the long term effects of doing nothing.
Perhaps there may not be too many problems today, but we know enough to be able to say with certainty that things will get worse unless we take action.
It is questionable if importing yet another highly inbred pedigree would do any good, it could make matter worse.

[UberBowman]

Possibly Tony, but you appear to be considering this in terms of a commercial venture, with a profit and loss sheet to balance, whilst I was more concerned with the long term effects of doing nothing.
Perhaps there may not be too many problems today, but we know enough to be able to say with certainty that things will get worse unless we take action.
It is questionable if importing yet another highly inbred pedigree would do any good, it could make matter worse.
Was just gonna post with that exact point.

[MelB]

Ahh, but is it Mel?
According to Mendellian principles...................
Does a poor hunter make for poor hunting offspring?
Is it due to nature or nurture?
Is not the genetic diversity/relatedness of the parents more of an issue than pure aptitude for the kill?
Just thinking out loud here.
Bren.

Poor falconry birds make for poor falconry offspring, thats all you need to know.

[PlantBreeder]

Poor falconry birds make for poor falconry offspring, thats all you need to know.

Then how do you explain it when two very intelligent people produce a mentally defective child, or when a pair of morons have a child genius ?

[UberBowman]

Yeah but,
with one good parent, and one indifferent.
According to Gregor, you should end up with 50% good hunters and 50% poor. BUT 100% genetic diversity. It's surely a question of accepting the poor hunters as a sort of "genetic bank", no good for hunting with, but a source of genetic diversity within the population as a whole.
Bren.

[MelB]

Then how do you explain it when two very intelligent people produce a mentally defective child, or when a pair of morons have a child genius ?

What the figg has that got to do with anything. Tim you need to sit down with a punnet square and variuos different phenotypes maybe that will give you the answer you seek.

[PlantBreeder]

What the figg has that got to do with anything. Tim you need to sit down with a punnet square and variuos different phenotypes maybe that will give you the answer you seek.

Does anybody else not understand the point I was making ?

Mel, you implied that only 'good' hawks produce 'good' hawks, this is not so.

[UberBowman]

Should we perhaps, be looking at this as a sort of Major Histocompatibility Complex issue? In a very broad sense obviously.
Bren.

[MelB]

Does anybody else not understand the point I was making ?

Mel, you implied that only 'good' hawks produce 'good' hawks, this is not so.

No Tim, I imply that bad hawks often produce bad hawks, and if a bloodline continues to produce an undesirable trait then the breeding should stop. Natural ability to hunt is only a very small part of it, falconry birds have to be right for falconry and not just right in thier abillity to catch prey.

[UberBowman]

Guys, MHC?

[PlantBreeder]

Should we perhaps, be looking at this as a sort of Major Histocompatibility Complex issue? In a very broad sense obviously.
Bren.

I was trying not to get too technical, Bren, but the same basic rules apply to
all life forms, be they algae, fruit trees, hawks, man or elephants.

We have seen with dogs that you can spend a fortune on a pair of championship
pedigree animals, only to get very poor offspring. With stock sourced from the
wild, nature is constantly weeding out the poor specimens.

I do accept Mel's point about falconry birds, in a sense we are asking for something other
than what nature will provide, which brings me back to my puzzlement regarding the hostility
towards hybrids.

[MelB]

I was trying not to get too technical, Bren, but the same basic rules apply to
all life forms, be they algae, fruit trees, hawks, man or elephants.

We have seen with dogs that you can spend a fortune on a pair of championship pedigree animals, only to get very poor offspring. With
stock sourced from the wild, nature is constantly weeding out the poor
specimens.
Too much inbreeding and not enough understanding of genetics. And you are talking about two different things, domestic and natural not even close to being the same.

[UberBowman]

Exactly Tim,
Nature shows use that you can take 2 seemingly unpromising individuals and the resulting offspring will exceed........................................sorr y, I'm doing that thing with grandmothers and eggs again.

[MelB]

Exactly Tim,
Nature shows use that you can take 2 seemingly unpromising individuals and the resulting offspring will exceed........................................sorr y, I'm doing that thing with grandmothers and eggs again.

You mean about flying birds?

[PlantBreeder]

Too much inbreeding and not enough understanding of genetics. And you are talking about two different things, domestic and natural not even close to being the same.

Of course, as I said, we are asking of our domestic animals far different
than the conditions applied by nature.

So what do you propose is the solution, is it time for an entirely man-made falconry bird that bears no relationship to the wild raptors, a sort of designer
hawk ?

[UberBowman]

You mean about flying birds?
No , I mean about you and Tim. You are both aware that there is validity to the others argument.......................................... ...................Not that either of you are unpromising, could lead to a good debate.
Bren.

[MelB]

Of course, as I said, we are asking of our domestic animals far different
than the conditions applied by nature.

So what do you propose is the solution, is it time for an entirely man-made falconry bird that bears no relationship to the wild raptors, a sort of designer
hawk ?

The solution is as I've always said there is a need for controlled breeding, If an individual wants to breed BOPs then they need to prove they are right for the job. Many of the genetic defects found in dogs can be easily bred out, yet there is a need for vanity and a real lack of understanding of basic genetics. BOPs are slowly going the same way, I have seen many BOPs bred with leg and hip problems I knew of a breeding pair that would produce heart defects, yet the backyard breeder still continued. Only allow those who know what they are doing.

[UberBowman]

The solution is as I've always said there is a need for controlled breeding, If an individual wants to breed BOPs then they need to prove they are right for the job. Many of the genetic defects found in dogs can be easily bred out, yet there is a need for vanity and a real lack of understanding of basic genetics. BOPs are slowly going the same way, I have seen many BOPs bred with leg and hip problems I knew of a breeding pair that would produce heart defects, yet the backyard breeder still continued. Only allow those who know what they are doing.
Here, here.
Keep it up boys, i'm enjoying this one.
Got to go bye-byes now, it's been a hard weekend.
Bren.

[PlantBreeder]

The solution is as I've always said there is a need for controlled breeding, If an individual wants to breed BOPs then they need to prove they are right for the job. Many of the genetic defects found in dogs can be easily bred out, yet there is a need for vanity and a real lack of understanding of basic genetics. BOPs are slowly going the same way, I have seen many BOPs bred with leg and hip problems I knew of a breeding pair that would produce heart defects, yet the backyard breeder still continued. Only allow those who know what they are doing.

I have to agree with that wholeheartedly, Mel.
Who would decide if a person is right for the job, and what qualifies them
to be a judge. I'm not saying it should not be done, but these questions
have to be addressed.
We have the Kennel Club for dogs, they have very strict rules on pedigree
and breeding 'true to type', all those folk think they are experts, and we see
the mess they have made of it.
You are right about breeding bops, I have noticed how there is more and
more notice taken over a bird's colour, what with Arab countries seeking
pure black of pure white birds, what problems are we creating for the
future in catering to that fashion.

[MelB]

I have to agree with that wholeheartedly, Mel.
Who would decide if a person is right for the job, and what qualifies them
to be a judge. I'm not saying it should not be done, but these questions
have to be addressed.
We have the Kennel Club for dogs, they have very strict rules on pedigree
and breeding 'true to type', all those folk think they are experts, and we see
the mess they have made of it.
You are right about breeding bops, I have noticed how there is more and
more notice taken over a bird's colour, what with Arab countries seeking
pure black of pure white birds, what problems are we creating for the
future in catering to that fashion.

Who would do it? good question. Now I'm very unpopular when I say this but I don't give a monkey's scroat. I think there are enough big players within falconry, big enough to apply the right pressure on the right people. If those people need to be DEFRA then so beit. Someone said that DEFRA wouldn't be interested, but I feel they would if they only had to over see it and in turn make money from it, the latter being the biggest driving force. As for the Kennel club the problem with them was the fact that the people over seeing it were themselves dog breeders,(not exactly non bias). It needs people in the know but not breeders. The color of bird has always been an issue to some, but whats more worrying is the way birds come in and out of fashion, this year it may be spars next year it may gyr/sakers.

[PlantBreeder]

.............. The color of bird has always been an issue to some, but whats more worrying is the way birds come in and out of fashion, this year it may be spars next year it may gyr/sakers.

Too true, and what becomes of last years bird of fashion ?
Perhaps if there was some form of licensing, it could be written in
that the owner assumes some degree of responsibility towards the bird.
They say a dog is for life, but often a bop can live far longer that the
average pooch, so there should be something in force.

[MelB]

Too true, and what becomes of last years bird of fashion ?
Perhaps if there was some form of licensing, it could be written in
that the owner assumes some degree of responsibility towards the bird.
They say a dog is for life, but often a bop can live far longer that the
average pooch, so there should be something in force.

Ah yes thats the next part of my cunning plan. controlled breeding should push up prices and stop people buying on a whim, there is a down side in that it may push up wild takes.

[PlantBreeder]

Ah yes thats the next part of my cunning plan. controlled breeding should push up prices and stop people buying on a whim, there is a down side in that it may push up wild takes.

O.K., then what about the idea that only licensed breeders can have fertile
birds, and all others are sterilised. This stops the backyard breeder in his
tracks, stops all the panic over falconry birds escaping and breeding with
wild stock. Perhaps you could have a hormone implant similar to capons.

I have often thought it should be illegal to pass on a cat or dog that has
not been 'doctored', perhaps we could have the same for bops.

[MelB]

O.K., then what about the idea that only licensed breeders can have fertile
birds, and all others are sterilised. This stops the backyard breeder in his
tracks, stops all the panic over falconry birds escaping and breeding with
wild stock. Perhaps you could have a hormone implant similar to capons.

I have often thought it should be illegal to pass on a cat or dog that has
not been 'doctored', perhaps we could have the same for bops.

The finacial implications are huge and going back to what you were saying earlier, you run the risk of ending up with a very small gene pool. Any fine applied would need to be much greater than any money made from illegal breeding.

[PlantBreeder]

The finacial implications are huge and going back to what you were saying earlier, you run the risk of ending up with a very small gene pool. Any fine applied would need to be much greater than any money made from illegal breeding.

It would be very hard to enforce, and you are right in saying it threatens the
gene pool. And so we have gone full circle, Mel. Although we can see plenty
of problems, the solutions are not so easy to find.

I have enjoyed our discussion very much, thank you, but I must hit the sack
as I have a very busy day ahead. Hope we can chat again another time.

ATB, Tim.

[MelB]

It would be very hard to enforce, and you are right in saying it threatens the
gene pool. And so we have gone full circle, Mel. Although we can see plenty
of problems, the solutions are not so easy to find.

I have enjoyed our discussion very much, thank you, but I must hit the sack
as I have a very busy day ahead. Hope we can chat again another time.

ATB, Tim.

......and good night.

[PlantBreeder]

Ah yes thats the next part of my cunning plan. controlled breeding should push up prices and stop people buying on a whim, there is a down side in that it may push up wild takes.

Price is a very bad means of regulation, just because some idiot has money
to burn, does not mean he has a clue how to care for a bop, you are just
pandering to those folk who see a certain type of bop as a status symbol or
fashion statement.
If you want to restrict ownership, do it through a test of skills and ability, let
the prospective owner demonstrate that he has the appropriate knowledge to
care for the bird.

[MelB]

Price is a very bad means of regulation, just because some idiot has money
to burn, does not mean he has a clue how to care for a bop, you are just
pandering to those folk who see a certain type of bop as a status symbol or
fashion statement.
If you want to restrict ownership, do it through a test of skills and ability, let
the prospective owner demonstrate that he has the appropriate knowledge to
care for the bird.

No, but it does reduce the amount of numpties taking it up.

[PlantBreeder]

No, but it does reduce the amount of numpties taking it up.

Yes, and my suggestion would prevent the numpties, rich or poor, because
they could not demonstrate the skill or expertise.

I am just saying that you don't become a good falconer just by winning the
lotto, you have to work hard and learn well. That should be the test.

Otherwise, it's like saying that if a poor man causes a tiny scratch on your
car paintwork he should be banged up for life, but a rich man can get blind
drunk, run over your wife and kids, and walk free, just because he has cash.

[Steve.T]

Easier to import possibly, but if I wanted to end up with an eyas gos from overseas I know which option I'd go for:yawinkle:.

I agree, for the falconer that wants a bird for himself.

I am thinking more along the lines of breeders, they could exchange eggs to introduce fresh blood into their strain.

Or those that are into breeding hybrids, you could place eg; pere eggs under saker those making the peregrine more likely to breed naturally with a saker....