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Ninja-Jon
21-08-2005, 02:41 AM
Training methods

I find that it takes about 1-3 weeks to move a young Harris’s hawk from the breeding chamber to the hunting field. In that first 1-3 weeks only a small amount of time, perhaps 5-30 minutes, is needed each day. I do no formal manning at all, since I work with an exceptionally tame line of captive-bred Harris's hawks. When the eyas is pulled from the chamber, or arrives by air freight, it is cast gently in a towel while the Aylmeri cuffs, jesses, bell, and telemetry tail mount are attached. I use a single merlin-sized leg bell and a Marshall tail clip for the telemetry. When released from the towel, the hawk is placed on the glove. A really tame Harris's hawk will not bate; the best of them will stand on the glove and preen. The hawk is then weighed and put on a low bow perch in the back yard, with access to a bath. I generally put a tidbit on my glove and show it to the hawk while it is standing on the perch. I have only had two hawks take the tidbit on Day 1; one of them even made its first jump to the glove within a few hours of being pulled from the breeding chamber! I wish that every falconer could experience the pleasure of flying such birds as these, which practically train themselves.

Every time the hawk sees me from this point forward, it will have a chance to look for food. Occasionally I will walk by and offer a tidbit on the glove. I will let the hawk pick one tidbit from the glove, but after that, if the hawk wants to eat it has to jump to the glove. When it makes its first jump to the glove, I immediately toss a tidbit to the ground. The hawk learns an important lesson -- the glove is a good place from which to hunt (for tidbits, in this case). At this point, many hawks will return to the bow perch, then jump back to the ungarnished glove. If this happens, I toss another tidbit to the ground at once. If the hawk won't jump to the ungarnished glove, I offer another tidbit on the glove, then toss a tidbit to the ground after the hawk has eaten the one on the glove. Nearly all Harris's hawks will now jump from the bow perch to the ungarnished glove. From now on, the hawk will never receive another tidbit on the glove, but will be expected to come to the fist and wait to be 'served.' In the evening, I carefully pick the hawk up from the perch and back it into the transport box to spend the night. A tidbit is placed on the perch in the box to encourage the hawk to step up. The next morning, the hawk is weighed and put back on the bow perch.

Once this routine is established, all that is needed is to increase the distance of the flights just as one typically trains any other hawk or falcon. I like to use a second person to help at this stage, so the hawk flies back and forth between us, and a tidbit is thrown to the ground every time the hawk comes to one person or the other. When the hawk will come 30-50 feet on the creance promptly, it is shown a whole dead rabbit lure. Every Harris's hawk I've had slammed into the lure the first time it was brought out. The hawk is given the rabbit's front leg, and allowed to eat it in peace. I walk away from the hawk while it eats, so that it doesn't feel compelled to mantle. When it is finished with the leg, the hawk is called to the ungarnished glove and put in its transport box. The same pattern will be followed in the field.

There is no need to do any more training, or fly the hawk free, before hunting. All of my Harris's hawks make their first free flight in a hunting field, and most of them catch a rabbit on their first day off the creance.

So far, I haven't mentioned weight control, manning, or hooding. Weight control is important, and most captive-bred Harris's hawks will need to be reduced in weight before being hunted. For the vast majority of eyas Harris’s hawks being trained for the first time, this hunting weight is lower than the weight at which the hawk will return to the falconer. This means that training needs to proceed quickly so that the young bird is out hunting before it becomes dependent on the falconer. Harris’s hawks are notorious liars, and will act like they are starving at home, but have poor response in the field because in reality they are too heavy. Likewise, at their ‘first free flight weight’ many of them will come a mile to the glove, but somehow never quite catch up to rabbits that they chase. This ‘near-miss syndrome’ is a symptom of being over their true hunting weight. To catch rabbits consistently a Harris’s hawk must fly hard, crash into brush, and rebound in pursuit after a miss. If it doesn’t do these things, it is too heavy to hunt well, no matter how good its fist response might be.

I don't do any manning of my captive-bred Harris's hawks. They are never forced to sit on the glove, and never handled except when the hawk is actively looking for food (including hunting for tidbits). As for hoods, I don't use them for captive-bred Harris's hawks. In my style of training, without manning sessions there is no opportune time to introduce the hood before we are in the field, hunting. Perhaps once or twice a season hooding would be helpful to me, but that need is too infrequent for me to take the trouble to train the hawks to the hood.

When the captive-bred Harris's hawk is ready to be flown free, training is over and the fun begins!





I read the above and now very confused This trainer does not do any manning with is BOP and never forced to sit on the Glove. Yet i read in the forum threads ppl do go through a manning session with there BOP and do feed there BOP off the Glove would someone plz explain to me.




Finnish
21-08-2005, 07:59 AM
MOVED THE THREAD TO CORRECT PLACE :)

MickeyDredd
21-08-2005, 09:53 PM
I read the above and now very confused This trainer does not do any manning with is BOP and never forced to sit on the Glove. Yet i read in the forum threads ppl do go through a manning session with there BOP and do feed there BOP off the Glove would someone plz explain to me.

This method is as you say contrary to the way many of the people on the forum have trained their harris, with regard to the zero manning and not flying to the glove for tidbits.

I am also unfamiliar with "tame lines of harris's" and I'm not sure I would want my harris to be tame straight out of the aviary - I like to see a bit of fire in my hawk!

I assume this quote to be from a falconer from over the pond where the eyass has possibly been reared in an open-fronted aviary so this method works for this austringer (only guessing at this though). It will not work for everyone.

You have to ask yourself if this is the most suitable training routine for someone who has never trained a hawk before - I personally doubt it. I assume the author is an experienced austringer.

BUT you have to take on board all the training methods you will hear about on this forum and all that you have read in books and decide which one suits you best. When you decide which method you will use to train your first bird, you must try to stick to it as changing half way through cos it isnt working isnt ideal, albeit possibly necessary.

OutFlying
21-08-2005, 10:25 PM
Ninja Jon,
This method isn't a recognised one for the majority of harris training. Your best to follow a method outlined in one of the books I suggested to you to read at the beginning (sorry to repeat this advice but it will be your best option). Pick out one book and follow that method only don't try to mix and match ideas when training your first hawk, later you will know what works for you and then you will be able to use bits and pieces from different methods BUT your first hawk needs to follow a proven method. I don't know which books you've been reading but Emma Fords Falconry and Practice is a simple book to follow and a good starting point or you could read Martin Hollinshead Complete Rabbit and Hare Hawk for a more in depth training program. I wouldn't recommend using the method outlined in your original posting for a first time trainer.

OF.

Falconry Equipment International
21-08-2005, 10:30 PM
Ninja Jon,
This method isn't a recognised one for the majority of harris training. Your best to follow a method outlined in one of the books I suggested to you to read at the beginning (sorry to repeat this advice but it will be your best option). Pick out one book and follow that method only don't try to mix and match ideas when training your first hawk, later you will know what works for you and then you will be able to use bits and pieces from different methods BUT your first hawk needs to follow a proven method. I don't know which books you've been reading but Emma Fords Falconry and Practice is a simple book to follow and a good starting point or you could read Martin Hollinshead Complete Rabbit and Hare Hawk for a more in depth training program. I wouldn't recommend using the method outlined in your original posting for a first time trainer.

OF.
OF wise words indeed

Ninja-Jon
21-08-2005, 10:44 PM
Thanks for replying Mickey. You are exactly correct in it is a page off Toby Bradshaw's Falconry Page he does rear is eyass in open fronted aviary's.Do the breeders in the uk not rear the eyass in this way then?

Ninja-Jon
21-08-2005, 10:50 PM
Ok Outflying i will take your advice Apprecaiate it.

OutFlying
21-08-2005, 10:59 PM
Thanks for replying Mickey. You are exactly correct in it is a page off Toby Bradshaw's Falconry Page he does rear is eyass in open fronted aviary's.Do the breeders in the uk not rear the eyass in this way then?

A friend of mine rears his harris hawks this way.

Falconry Equipment International
21-08-2005, 10:59 PM
still don't have the decncy to comment then??????????????????????????

MickeyDredd
21-08-2005, 11:02 PM
Thanks for replying Mickey. You are exactly correct in it is a page off Toby Bradshaw's Falconry Page he does rear is eyass in open fronted aviary's.Do the breeders in the uk not rear the eyass in this way then?

Not really, although I think there might be someone on this forum who knows a man that does :wink:

Edit - sorry was busy typing when OF replied.

The theory is that the young hawks see people, kids, dogs, etc as part of their growing up process and accept them as "normal" therefore when they are taken up they have less fear of such things and are stable around them from the off, rather than having to be introduced to them as part of the training process, therefore its one less hazard for the bird to have to be worried about.

I'm not sure if I've explained that properly but hopefully you get the picture.

OutFlying
21-08-2005, 11:04 PM
Newbie (Simon), bought one of my mate. I think it was flying free within the week with very little weight reduction.

OF.

MickeyDredd
21-08-2005, 11:07 PM
OF

How long has your mate been using the open-fronted aviary?

Any downside?

OutFlying
21-08-2005, 11:10 PM
2 seasons of breeding using this method, couldn't tell you of the downsides as I haven't seen the offspring fly / hunted but the people who have bought them seem impressed and haven't reported back any problems due to the rearing method - only positive feedback about how easy and steady they are to train.

OF.

MickeyDredd
21-08-2005, 11:19 PM
Had he bred with them enclosed before he tried with the open-front?

The reason I ask is I paired up a couple of harrises last season, primarily to moult them out, but put in a nest etc just on the off chance.

Nothing happened - she was a narky cow - but I obviously did not know if the open front had anything to do with this.

It would be interesting to have an established breeding pair who were enclosed and then open the aviary up, to compare behaviour in the adults and differences in how the young are to train.

OutFlying
21-08-2005, 11:24 PM
I will have a better look at his setup, I think the nest box is behind the open fronted part - so that it is not visible from the front, but all flight space and feeding is visible. They didn't breed in any other setup other than the present system.

OF.

Ninja-Jon
21-08-2005, 11:28 PM
This is where read the article from http://home.comcast.net/~baywingdb/index.htm

Adam Barrett
22-08-2005, 12:10 AM
OF as you will probably know i flew my female harris with one of bobs males that was reared in the open fronted aviery, now i do not know if it was my mates training method as this was his first hawk but on the second day out of the pen it started screaming-never in the feild but at home when he was alone in the mews.

Saying that he was the tamest best manered harris i have ever seen-he fed on the fist the firt night and turned out to be deadly on feather with quite a few rabbit to his name although this was not his normal quarry.

He will be flying with my female shortly as he has just been brought out of the moult and he is a credit to bob and the birds he breeds.

i fly a creche reared female and if i was ever to go back to a PR bird it would definatly be a hawk reared in the same way and style that bob uses.

sorry to ramble :lol:
Adam

Ninja-Jon
22-08-2005, 12:45 AM
Adam you mention there the hawk screams. Once a screamer is it always a screamer or can this be cured.

Kornie
22-08-2005, 09:11 AM
Ninja Jon, the article that springs to mind personaly on training a harris (it mentions male, but works to for female) is the following. I cant disagree with anything this guy says in the trsining of a harris.

http://www.onlinefalconry.com/harris.html

definately worth a read if you got the time.

Ninja-Jon
22-08-2005, 01:30 PM
Hi Kornie thanks for the link mate very interesting. Like the way he explains how he trains is HH even for someone like me who knows nothing i am able to understand.Only some topics you read sound quite complex-ed with all the falconry jargon they use.

Kornie
22-08-2005, 05:20 PM
Yeah, I recomend Troy Moritz 100%. If you used what he said there as a guide to training your first bird Jon, you couldn't go far wrong. IMO.

FlameHairedFalconer
01-09-2005, 08:20 PM
Very interesting. I have trained and flown harrises bred in seclusion chambers - and they can take a few days to sort out the fear element. I would be very interested in training and flying one bred as outlined above.

However in response to ninja jon - I would agree with others comments.

FHF

Wightwings
01-09-2005, 10:16 PM
some good links with some good points........you will always find contrasting methods from a variety of sources....the best way is to decide what suits your circumstances and stick to it.......

Moses
01-09-2005, 10:37 PM
This is where read the article from http://home.comcast.net/~baywingdb/index.htm

good site bud :)

kornie does that site belong to the same moritz who is a member here

cheers

Wightwings
01-09-2005, 10:54 PM
dont think so

Moses
01-09-2005, 11:01 PM
thanks chris