Concerns regarding Captive UK Peregrines

[SmallPeregrine]

Following a debate recently with Chiquera aka Gary Wall concerning Wild Take of UK Peregrines on a Thread named Legal Take. The conversation went off on a tangent after I expressed my concerns on his tame hacking programme of Gyr hybrids, Gyr/Peregrines etc in the Lockerbie area of Scotland. My concerns were not just about potential loss and possible Genetic Pollution but the impact big Hybrids can have on the resident smaller Raptor populations (ie. Kestrels, Sparrow hawks, Merlins etc)in and around that surrounding area (especially with the Kestrels etc. broods not long out of the nests). Consequently we were told to take to PM which we did and carried on our debate. I was taken aback by his reply about my above concerns, Gary categorically stated that the;
‘Captive bred peregrines are the biggest threat to the genetic pollution of our UK population of Peregrines’!:shock:
I nearly dropped off my seat and after a heated exchange of PMS, then PMS abruptly ceased. I have pondered on whether start this thread but I did ask Chiquera and he has’t said No.
I know my opinion about the quality of Peregrines bred in the UK and Chiquera’s comments’. I wanting to know others peoples opinions:?:

[Pitbull]

I have no experience in falcons,
But what do you recon the captive bred has over the wild, to think that they are not a threat.
Personally from my own limited view, I would agree with that the captive is a pollutent. But in small numbers it would be bred out of them if bred out in the wild. I wouldn't say that all birds that die in the wild are weak genetically, But I don't think survival of the fitest can ever be improved by captive breeding. You just have to look at what the scientist have done over the years thinking that they know best. I think there is still alot of quess work done (From the humans side) on how the animal kingdom works on natural selection, and the breeding activities of those. And look at what we have done over the last 100 yrs to dogs and cats. Time will only tell.

[Keith Barker]

ill pull up my chair this could be a long one!
keith

[HallBeck]

I'm no expert on this - but i would tend to agree with Gary on his view on Peregrines.

Hybrids rarely interbreed with our native birds - but theres no reason at all that an Anatum/pergrinus minor subspecies hybrid, if lost, wouldn't breed with a wild bird.

[SparkleBee]

I'm no expert on this - but i would tend to agree with Gary on his view on Peregrines.

Hybrids rarely interbreed with our native birds - but theres no reason at all that an Anatum/pergrinus minor subspecies hybrid, if lost, wouldn't breed with a wild bird.

And wouldnt its genetic input be swamped by native peregrine genes after a few generations, and wouldnt it be less likely to survive the natural selection pressure from our environment? Or am i just being naieve...?

[HallBeck]

And wouldnt its genetic input be swamped by native peregrine genes after a few generations, and wouldnt it be less likely to survive the natural selection pressure from our environment? Or am i just being naieve...?

I really don't know - but surely much must depends on the amount of genetic pollution. One bird probably isn't going to be an issue. But what about 20 or 50?

[Pete Kent]

Many captive bred peregrines are coming up lighter in weight these days. One theory I've heard is during the days of DDT when our native birds were in scarce supply falconers brought in smaller sub species from all over in order to keep flying, these birds through captive breeding have had a weight/size reducing effect on British peregrines.

An old boy told me that not so long ago a female peregrine was always over 2lb flying weight, how many fly over 2lb now ? not too many. Most are sub 2lb.

[SparkleBee]

Many captive bred peregrines are coming up lighter in weight these days. One theory I've heard is during the days of DDT when our native birds were in scarce supply falconers brought in smaller sub species from all over in order to keep flying, these birds through captive breeding have had a weight/size reducing effect on British peregrines.

An old boy told me that not so long ago a female peregrine was always over 2lb flying weight, how many fly over 2lb now ? not too many. Most are sub 2lb.

I have been told on more than one occasion that there is a fair bit of Barbary blood in a lot of UK captive bred Peregrine lines. I have no idea if thats true though!

[SmallPeregrine]

I'm no expert on this - but i would tend to agree with Gary on his view on Peregrines.

Hybrids rarely interbreed with our native birds - but theres no reason at all that an Anatum/pergrinus minor subspecies hybrid, if lost, wouldn't breed with a wild bird.

I have no experience in falcons,
But what do you recon the captive bred has over the wild, to think that they are not a threat.
.

Personally I think the UK breed some of the best and purist captive bred Peregrines in the world, IE Southern, S.Anthony, McKissock, Armstrong T & J, McDougall, Holliday, Hollidge, Garland etc. the list is long and wide. But you look at the confirmation and colour of these Falcons and there carbon copy to the Wild Brethren. Cant see any influence of any sub-species in any of there falcons:idea:

[Pitbull]

Personally I think the UK breed some of the best and purist captive bred Peregrines in the world, IE Southern, S.Anthony, McKissock, Armstrong T & J, McDougall, Holliday, Hollidge, Garland etc. the list is long and wide. But you look at the confirmation and colour of these Falcons and there carbon copy to the Wild Brethren. Cant see any influence of any sub-species in any of there falcons:idea:

All I can say to that is it is not always whats on the outside that is the issue but what is happening on the inside. And not just what we can physically see.
I hope in a hundred years the captive breeder is not looked upon like those in the dog and cat world, or even in the farm livestock world.

[HallBeck]

Personally I think the UK breed some of the best and purist captive bred Peregrines in the world, IE Southern, S.Anthony, McKissock, Armstrong T & J, McDougall, Holliday, Hollidge, Garland etc. the list is long and wide. But you look at the confirmation and colour of these Falcons and there carbon copy to the Wild Brethren. Cant see any influence of any sub-species in any of there falcons:idea:

What about the Brookei that Mr Garlands breeds? What about the barbaries, the anatums, the peregrinus minor etc etc.

[SmallPeregrine]

What about the Brookei that Mr Garlands breeds? What about the barbaries, the anatums, the peregrinus minor etc etc.
Yes he breeds pure brookies, yes he breeds Barbarys, dont think he breeds Minors(African Peregrines):roll:, hasnt bred anatums yets I think..... And the point is:idea:

[GSP]

For what it’s worth here’s my contribution to this subject.
Although I except a few breeders have done all they can to keep there lines pure peregrinus peregrinus there are far more lines out there that have a percentage of sub species in them and in my opinion these are the bird that would effect the wild population the most.
One thing the hybrid producers have proved is that most of the peregrine hybrid females are not capable of producing young, so in my opinion that halves the chances of any inter breeding in the wild population should one of these females manage to form a pair. whereas peregrine x peregrine subspecies both sexes are fertile.
If certain hybrid females can’t be made fertile in an AI project it is not going to happen in the wild you can be 99.9% sure of that.
If such a ban on using hybrid birds for falconry is ever put in place in the UK it should also prevent the use of peregrine subspecies being used as stated above in my opinion they would be the biggest dilatants to the wild genes.
Another question comes to mind with this thread is, If the captive bred peregrine is so pure why is one of the reasons for wild take being given as the captive lines need fresh blood? That does not mean I don’t think it is needed, I think it is desperately needed mainly to get the Barbary out of the system.

[SparkleBee]

Would a lost/escaped subspecies or subspecies 'hybrid' be able to outcompete in the wild a wild peregrinus? Is the wild peregrinus not evolved for our environment, whereas any other subspecies isnt? So why would such a subspecies hybrid be a threat to native peregrines?

[GSP]

Personally I think the UK breed some of the best and purist captive bred Peregrines in the world, IE Southern, S.Anthony, McKissock, Armstrong T & J, McDougall, Holliday, Hollidge, Garland etc. the list is long and wide. But you look at the confirmation and colour of these Falcons and there carbon copy to the Wild Brethren. Cant see any influence of any sub-species in any of there falcons:idea:
What about the peales x peregrinus Garland has been producing that actualy seems to turn out smaller than a "pure scottish" from them?

[FalconFred]

Personally I think the UK breed some of the best and purist captive bred Peregrines in the world, IE Southern, S.Anthony, McKissock, Armstrong T & J, McDougall, Holliday, Hollidge, Garland etc. the list is long and wide. But you look at the confirmation and colour of these Falcons and there carbon copy to the Wild Brethren. Cant see any influence of any sub-species in any of there falcons:idea:

Our dept. of wildlife allows a number of wild taken Peregrines each and every year, so chances are our captive bred Pere's are the best you can get 'locally' . You only have to compare chamber/ flying weights of our Peregrines or indeed they're hybrids to our u.k cousins to see this.
Atb

G

[HallBeck]

Yes he breeds pure brookies, yes he breeds Barbarys, dont think he breeds Minors(African Peregrines):roll:, hasnt bred anatums yets I think..... And the point is:idea:

Are you trying to be rude?

My point - as i think you know - is that gentic pollution of wild uk stock comes from the introduction of any alien subspecies. It doesn't matter if that subspecies is pure or not - its all alien.

If you choose to reply to this post i would apprciate it if you could learn some manners before starting to type.

[Pitbull]

Personally I just have a bad feeling of AI. I think they would be far better birds if they paired naturally. If this meant years together without anything so be it. Though it is not commercial. But there has to be a reason why birds do not mate like rabbits or dogs. If its forced, for me it ain't good. (I know the female has to be ready in herself to be inseminated)

[Pitbull]

My point - as i think you know - is that gentic pollution of wild uk stock comes from the introduction of any alien subspecies. It doesn't matter if that subspecies is pure or not - its all alien.

Would you class a wild peregrine from say, Kent being put with a peregrine say from Perth an alien mating.
As what would be the chances of the 2 meeting in the wild.

[Keeb71]

The hacking aspect of releasing large gry hybrids probably has little impact on wild stock directly. If they begin to kill in the wild they should be caught up. I don't know but doubt that a young bird could harrass a wild bird enough to interfer with there ability to feed themselves and young. And it is unlikely that hacked birds will be lost at a higher rate then hunting falcons.

I would agree that captive non-native peregrine subspecies could be of much greater concern. They would likely be similar enough both in courtship displays and breeding season that they could cross with the native stocks. If this happens enough you could have a population of "mutt" peregrines like we have in places in the lower 48 here in the states.

But at the same time it might actually strengthen your native stocks by introducing new blood and genetic traits. Then nature can select which crossing has got what it takes to make it forward to breed. I suppose this could cause stronger more genetically diverse peregrines. But they would not be pure native stock which could be lost or could have already been lost.

You might look at goshawks in the UK they are a hodgepodge of genetics but by natural selection they are becoming a new species of goshawk native to the UK. Nature will select the viable traits that best suit it for life where it lives.

Rambling thoughts,

Chris

[Dean]

Would you class a wild peregrine from say, Kent being put with a peregrine say from Perth an alien mating.
As what would be the chances of the 2 meeting in the wild.I should imagine a wild peregrine in kent would have many scottish ancestors,as would any english falcon!:yawinkle:

[HallBeck]

Would you class a wild peregrine from say, Kent being put with a peregrine say from Perth an alien mating.
As what would be the chances of the 2 meeting in the wild.

Personally i wouldn't - Peregrines can and do cover large distances and Perth to Kent wouldn't be a problem.

However Perth, Australia to Kent is most unlikely - so i would classify a lost macropus peregrine as alien .

But i must point out - i am no scientist, just an amateur in these matters!

[Pitbull]

I should imagine a wild peregrine in kent would have many scottish ancestors,as would any english falcon!:yawinkle:

Personally i wouldn't - Peregrines can and do cover large distances and Perth to Kent wouldn't be a problem.

However Perth, Australia to Kent is most unlikely - so i would classify a lost macropus peregrine as alien .

But i must point out - i am no scientist, just an amateur in these matters!

So this "Sottish Peregrine" is just a title then. Makes you think of a bird that hunts and lives in the wild glens of the Highlands rather than sitting on a manky industrial estate hunting scuts. :lol:

[HallBeck]

So this "Sottish Peregrine" is just a title then. Makes you think of a bird that hunts and lives in the wild glens of the Highlands rather than sitting on a manky industrial estate hunting scuts. :lol:

Yep - a Scottish Peregrine is not a distinct subspecies.

[DannyRot]

The hacking aspect of releasing large gry hybrids probably has little impact on wild stock directly. If they begin to kill in the wild they should be caught up. I don't know but doubt that a young bird could harrass a wild bird enough to interfer with there ability to feed themselves and young. And it is unlikely that hacked birds will be lost at a higher rate then hunting falcons.

I would agree that captive non-native peregrine subspecies could be of much greater concern. They would likely be similar enough both in courtship displays and breeding season that they could cross with the native stocks. If this happens enough you could have a population of "mutt" peregrines like we have in places in the lower 48 here in the states.

But at the same time it might actually strengthen your native stocks by introducing new blood and genetic traits. Then nature can select which crossing has got what it takes to make it forward to breed. I suppose this could cause stronger more genetically diverse peregrines. But they would not be pure native stock which could be lost or could have already been lost.

You might look at goshawks in the UK they are a hodgepodge of genetics but by natural selection they are becoming a new species of goshawk native to the UK. Nature will select the viable traits that best suit it for life where it lives.

Rambling thoughts,

Chris
glad to hear someone with a little sence:!: its only us humans/british that have threatened our native species with non native species and one can not tell if native or not is in the gene pool its gone a little to far for this i would say:!: danny

[CloudBase1664]

The hacking aspect of releasing large gry hybrids probably has little impact on wild stock directly. If they begin to kill in the wild they should be caught up. I don't know but doubt that a young bird could harrass a wild bird enough to interfer with there ability to feed themselves and young. And it is unlikely that hacked birds will be lost at a higher rate then hunting falcons.

I would agree that captive non-native peregrine subspecies could be of much greater concern. They would likely be similar enough both in courtship displays and breeding season that they could cross with the native stocks. If this happens enough you could have a population of "mutt" peregrines like we have in places in the lower 48 here in the states.

But at the same time it might actually strengthen your native stocks by introducing new blood and genetic traits. Then nature can select which crossing has got what it takes to make it forward to breed. I suppose this could cause stronger more genetically diverse peregrines. But they would not be pure native stock which could be lost or could have already been lost.

You might look at goshawks in the UK they are a hodgepodge of genetics but by natural selection they are becoming a new species of goshawk native to the UK. Nature will select the viable traits that best suit it for life where it lives.

Rambling thoughts,

Chris

SPOT ON!!!

Dave

[SmallPeregrine]

SPOT ON!!!

Dave
Really Dave..... please Explain yourself... afterall you fly Peregrines..am really interested in you thoughts on this matter:idea::?::-D
Phil

[SmallPeregrine]

Personally i wouldn't - Peregrines can and do cover large distances and Perth to Kent wouldn't be a problem.

However Perth, Australia to Kent is most unlikely - so i would classify a lost macropus peregrine as alien .

But i must point out - i am no scientist, just an amateur in these matters!
You fly a Harris:goodman::yawinkle:

[HallBeck]

You fly a Harris:goodman::yawinkle:

Wrong

[SmallPeregrine]

Wrong
Think you want to update your profile then:?:

[RabbitHawker]

There is an arguement that increasing the genetic diversity will increase the chances of survival in the long term. There is strong selection pressure in the wild as many suitable nest sites are taken, so those that do not make the grade will not breed. However with Climate Change on the doorstep a more diverse population is likley to have a greater range to select from in order to cope with the changes in quarry populations, climate seasons etc that are anticipated in just my lifetime alone. From a purist point of view increased diversity has polluted the native stock, but I would rathersee the peregrine survive rater than disappear, and we have been flying and losing imported peregrines for hundreds of years it is not a new phenomenon.

[HallBeck]

Think you want to update your profile then:?:

No i don't. I have no desire at all for the whole world to know what bird i fly.

[SmallPeregrine]

No i don't. I have no desire at all for the whole world to know what bird i fly.
Why not........ your quick to critise what certain breeders produce with out any clear evidence just speculation:roll:

[Pete Kent]

So this "Sottish Peregrine" is just a title then. Makes you think of a bird that hunts and lives in the wild glens of the Highlands rather than sitting on a manky industrial estate hunting scuts. :lol:

That's what it is, sales talk.

Like the Marks & Spencer advert, the term is used to make you think their pork pie is better than your pork pie. It's what is known in the trade as bull****.

[Gram]

That's what it is, sales talk.

Like the Marks & Spencer advert, the term is used to make you think their pork pie is better than your pork pie. It's what is known in the trade as bull****.
No ive tasted M&S Pork pies they are deffo better,because they are "not just pork pies"

[Pete Kent]

No ive tasted M&S Pork pies they are deffo better,because they are "not just pork pies"

Probably pork and cat !

[Gram]

Probably pork and cat !
Mmmmmmm,dont, im craving one now.I can see the kitten on the advert sat there and being pulled off screen by a Butterfly net and then a shot of the still steaming pie,god they are good!

[Tony James]

Following a debate recently with Chiquera aka Gary Wall concerning Wild Take of UK Peregrines on a Thread named Legal Take. The conversation went off on a tangent after I expressed my concerns on his tame hacking programme of Gyr hybrids, Gyr/Peregrines etc in the Lockerbie area of Scotland. My concerns were not just about potential loss and possible Genetic Pollution but the impact big Hybrids can have on the resident smaller Raptor populations (ie. Kestrels, Sparrow hawks, Merlins etc)in and around that surrounding area (especially with the Kestrels etc. broods not long out of the nests). Consequently we were told to take to PM which we did and carried on our debate. I was taken aback by his reply about my above concerns, Gary categorically stated that the;
‘Captive bred peregrines are the biggest threat to the genetic pollution of our UK population of Peregrines’!:shock:
I nearly dropped off my seat and after a heated exchange of PMS, then PMS abruptly ceased. I have pondered on whether start this thread but I did ask Chiquera and he has’t said No.
I know my opinion about the quality of Peregrines bred in the UK and Chiquera’s comments’. I wanting to know others peoples opinions:?:

I think you need to look at the issue objectively Phil.
How many examples can you cite of breeding attempts involving hybrid falcons lost by falconers? A handful perhaps.
Of that handful, how many are you aware of that were lost at hack rather than as trained hawks? None I suspect.
The responsible hacking of hawks, like the responsible flying of them, will limit losses so far as possible, so what is your attack on Gary based on? Hybrids lost through hacking in this country will be a small fraction of the numbers lost as trained hawks, so by extension do you attack everyone who flies a hybrid, for being the cause of a problem that you believe exists? If so, and your argument is essentially an argument to ban the use and production of hybrids, don't you think there should be better evidence to support that view?

Tony.

[Moritz]

Ok this is my 2 pence worth as a falconer, junior falcon breeder and wildlife management student.

First of all we need to define what is seen as a significant change of the DNA of the UK peregrine population.

How many none UK peregrines need to be released into the wild to have this effect.

Lets say at the moment the population in the UK is at least 1350 breeding pairs, so 2700 individual birds. To have a significant impact on the DNA of these birds we would nee at least 5% of their DNA to be none UK. This means 135 of them would have to be none UK DNA. This could mean 70 birds with 50% uk and 50% none and 100 birds with no UK DNA at all, etc etc.

So this means we would have to loose quite a large amount of peregrines every year, due to the fact that only 30% actually survive to reach maturity. Do we falconers in the UK loose that many peregrines? So if 30% is 135 we would need 450 falcons of 100% none UK DNA to be lost. Are there that many none UK peregrines lost over a period of lest say 5 years? Also I am assuming that the birds that survive all do pair up with a wild bird, disregarding the birds that have been reared by none peregrines. They also would have to be parent reared. Someone please remind me how many peregrines have ever been registered in the UK. But it was not that many. I would have to do exact population models to calculate exactly how many are needed to dilute the population, but from just this small example I think it is possible to see that it would take a large number of birds to be lost to change the gene poll.

Like someone said before, the UK peregrines evolved for this environment, and since natural selection works all the time the peregrines most suited to the environment will survive and that are peregrines with UK caracteristics.

I heard that studies have been done on the peregrine falcon populations that originate from the peregrines released in the USA and that DNA has shown that they are very similar again to the original wild stock. Could someone who knows more about that please enlighten me about this. A paper would be nice.

I personally think based on the evidence that has been presented to me so far, that neither hybrids nor subspecies hybrids can have any significant negative impact on a wild population of the size of the UK peregrine. If evidence to the contrary is presented to me I am happy to be educated.

And a quick remark regarding what OP said in his first post. As a person who actually has taken part in the wild hack of falcons of various species, I have yet to see that they have an impact on the local wildlife for the limit period of time they are out there flying. The time of year is after the breeding of the local populations of birds of prey and most other wildlife. So most chicks have left the nests. I would actually dare say that a young falcon trained in a less remote area has the same impact. So unless you think that your peregrines when flying around on your hunting ground, getting fit in what ever way you get them fit have a negative impact on the local wildlife.

regards

Moritz

[SmallPeregrine]

I think you need to look at the issue objectively Phil.
How many examples can you cite of breeding attempts involving hybrid falcons lost by falconers? A handful perhaps.
Of that handful, how many are you aware of that were lost at hack rather than as trained hawks? None I suspect.
The responsible hacking of hawks, like the responsible flying of them, will limit losses so far as possible, so what is your attack on Gary based on? Lost hybrids through hacking in this country will be a small fraction of the numbers lost as trained hawks, so by extension do you attack everyone who flies a hybrid, for being the cause of a problem that you believe exists? If so, and your argument is essentially an argument to ban the use and production of hybrids, don't you think there should be better evidence to support that view?

Tony.
Like I have said to you before I'm very assiduous in my research on any subject matter before I post on here Tony:idea: ...... I feel sometimes you do the complete opposite and not just on here:shock:
I suggest you acquire the new edition of The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century authors Janusz Sielicki & Tadeusz Mizera additional authors Dr M.Gage.
Read the facts and concerns relating to escaped hybrids and get back to me and stop trying to be teachers pet all the time its getting tedious:roll:

[Tony James]

Like I have said to you before I'm very assiduous in my research on any subject matter before I post on here Tony:idea: ...... I feel sometimes you do the complete opposite and not just on here:shock:
I suggest you acquire the new edition of The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century authors Janusz Sielicki & Tadeusz Mizera additional authors Dr M.Gage.
Read the facts and concerns relating to escaped hybrids and get back to me and stop trying to be teachers pet all the time its getting tedious:roll:

OK Phil,

not having a copy, perhaps you can do what you often ask others to, and answer the questions.
How many breeding attempts can you cite involving lost falconers hybrids, and in particular those lost at hack?

Tony.

[Tony James]

OK Phil,

not having a copy, perhaps you can do what you often ask others to, and answer the questions.
How many breeding attempts can you cite involving lost falconers hybrids, and in particular those lost at hack?

Tony.

I should add, bearing in mind your original post, that I'm asking specifically about figures for the UK.

[Tony James]

Many captive bred peregrines are coming up lighter in weight these days. One theory I've heard is during the days of DDT when our native birds were in scarce supply falconers brought in smaller sub species from all over in order to keep flying, these birds through captive breeding have had a weight/size reducing effect on British peregrines.

An old boy told me that not so long ago a female peregrine was always over 2lb flying weight, how many fly over 2lb now ? not too many. Most are sub 2lb.

Hi Pete,

a proportion of the domestically produced peregrines here are descended from the breeding efforts of the 70's, when no consideration was given to sub species or origin and any success was huge.
A good number of those peregrines were imported, as the supply of british peregrines was so limited. You would expect then, through the influence of these smaller sub species, to find our domestically produced hawks to be smaller.
That said, if you read Blaine's Falconry (1936), average flying weights for peregrines flown at game are given as 2lb for falcons and 1lb 4oz for tiercels.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[SmallPeregrine]

OK Phil,

not having a copy, perhaps you can do what you often ask others to, and answer the questions.
How many breeding attempts can you cite involving lost falconers hybrids, and in particular those lost at hack?

Tony.

What a ridiculous question 'Buttons' all Hybrids are bred for Falconry purposes..... a Village is missing you somewhere:goodman:
I think Stephen Hawking's would struggle with that one 'Buttons':!::roll:,

Up to date there has been 3 UK and as the book states P.Everitt & J.Franklin;
'there is documented evidence of hybrids escaping and breeding in USA, Germany, Sweden and now the UK. From our experience with this bird, if the breeding of hybrids for Falconry continues, it would be beneficial that all such birds should wear a distinctive ring that would allow immediate separation of pure-bred indigenous raptors, hybrids and non-indigenous species. Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'.

[Tony James]

What a ridiculous question 'Buttons' all Hybrids are bred for Falconry purposes..... a Village is missing you somewhere:goodman:
I think Stephen Hawking's would struggle with that one 'Buttons':!::roll:,

Up to date there has been 3 UK and as the book states P.Everitt & J.Franklin;
'there is documented evidence of hybrids escaping and breeding in USA, Germany, Sweden and now the UK. From our experience with this bird, if the breeding of hybrids for Falconry continues, it would be beneficial that all such birds should wear a distinctive ring that would allow immediate separation of pure-bred indigenous raptors, hybrids and non-indigenous species. Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'.

So you can't answer the question, even with your new book eh?

[HallBeck]

Why not........ your quick to critise what certain breeders produce with out any clear evidence just speculation:roll:

Because i don't want any unwanted interest - if thats alright with you.

Maybe you could quote the post where i criticised what a breeder produced. I am not aware of making any such observation.

[Tony James]

What a ridiculous question 'Buttons' all Hybrids are bred for Falconry purposes..... a Village is missing you somewhere:goodman:
I think Stephen Hawking's would struggle with that one 'Buttons':!::roll:,

Up to date there has been 3 UK and as the book states P.Everitt & J.Franklin;
'there is documented evidence of hybrids escaping and breeding in USA, Germany, Sweden and now the UK. From our experience with this bird, if the breeding of hybrids for Falconry continues, it would be beneficial that all such birds should wear a distinctive ring that would allow immediate separation of pure-bred indigenous raptors, hybrids and non-indigenous species. Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'.

To make it easier to understand, this, cut and pasted from my earlier post.
How many examples can you cite of breeding attempts involving hybrid falcons lost by falconers (and let's add, lost during the course of falconry as trained hawks)? A handful perhaps.
Of that handful, how many are you aware of that were lost at hack rather than as trained hawks? None I suspect.

[Jan1]

Don't know much about peregrines but with reference to genetics, I read somewhere that the influence of any individual animal is so watered down after 5 generations as to be effectively lost. I also understood that a lack of size in the resultant progeney was a problem in any long term breeding project.

[SmallPeregrine]

Personally I think the UK breed some of the best and purist captive bred Peregrines in the world, IE Southern, S.Anthony, McKissock, Armstrong T & J, McDougall, Holliday, Hollidge, Garland etc. the list is long and wide. But you look at the confirmation and colour of these Falcons and there carbon copy to the Wild Brethren. Cant see any influence of any sub-species in any of there falcons:idea:

What about the Brookei that Mr Garlands breeds? What about the barbaries, the anatums, the peregrinus minor etc etc.

Because i don't want any unwanted interest - if thats alright with you.

Maybe you could quote the post where i criticised what a breeder produced. I am not aware of making any such observation.

I think this one:idea:

[HallBeck]

Ok this is my 2 pence worth as a falconer, junior falcon breeder and wildlife management student.

First of all we need to define what is seen as a significant change of the DNA of the UK peregrine population.

How many none UK peregrines need to be released into the wild to have this effect.

Lets say at the moment the population in the UK is at least 1350 breeding pairs, so 2700 individual birds. To have a significant impact on the DNA of these birds we would nee at least 5% of their DNA to be none UK. This means 135 of them would have to be none UK DNA. This could mean 70 birds with 50% uk and 50% none and 100 birds with no UK DNA at all, etc etc.

So this means we would have to loose quite a large amount of peregrines every year, due to the fact that only 30% actually survive to reach maturity. Do we falconers in the UK loose that many peregrines? So if 30% is 135 we would need 450 falcons of 100% none UK DNA to be lost. Are there that many none UK peregrines lost over a period of lest say 5 years? Also I am assuming that the birds that survive all do pair up with a wild bird, disregarding the birds that have been reared by none peregrines. They also would have to be parent reared. Someone please remind me how many peregrines have ever been registered in the UK. But it was not that many. I would have to do exact population models to calculate exactly how many are needed to dilute the population, but from just this small example I think it is possible to see that it would take a large number of birds to be lost to change the gene poll.

Like someone said before, the UK peregrines evolved for this environment, and since natural selection works all the time the peregrines most suited to the environment will survive and that are peregrines with UK caracteristics.

I heard that studies have been done on the peregrine falcon populations that originate from the peregrines released in the USA and that DNA has shown that they are very similar again to the original wild stock. Could someone who knows more about that please enlighten me about this. A paper would be nice.

I personally think based on the evidence that has been presented to me so far, that neither hybrids nor subspecies hybrids can have any significant negative impact on a wild population of the size of the UK peregrine. If evidence to the contrary is presented to me I am happy to be educated.

And a quick remark regarding what OP said in his first post. As a person who actually has taken part in the wild hack of falcons of various species, I have yet to see that they have an impact on the local wildlife for the limit period of time they are out there flying. The time of year is after the breeding of the local populations of birds of prey and most other wildlife. So most chicks have left the nests. I would actually dare say that a young falcon trained in a less remote area has the same impact. So unless you think that your peregrines when flying around on your hunting ground, getting fit in what ever way you get them fit have a negative impact on the local wildlife.

regards

Moritz

I enjoyed reading this post - good to see a post backed up by some science!

I am not arguing with the numbers - but i would ask what the effect of a number of non uk birds being lost each and every year is? Thats what probably happens anyway - its not that in one year hundreds of birds are lost, but that some are lost each year. Presumably this still has a potential effect on the genetics of the wild population - any idea how much?

[HallBeck]

I think this one:idea:

Where did i criticise the breeder? You had stated that Mr Garland bred pure peregrinus birds. If that i have no doubt - i was merely saying that he also produces non peregrinus birds - and its potentially these non native sub species that could affect the genetics of the wild population.

[SmallPeregrine]

To make it easier to understand, this, cut and pasted from my earlier post.
How many examples can you cite of breeding attempts involving hybrid falcons lost by falconers (and let's add, lost during the course of falconry as trained hawks)? A handful perhaps.
Of that handful, how many are you aware of that were lost at hack rather than as trained hawks? None I suspect.

I think am I correct in saying N.Fox ceased his hacking programme because of the losses he incurred. I am friends with a breeder who does wild hacking, conservatively I think he has lost in the region 30 hybrids over the years, he even puts transmitters on his:idea:.
I tracked one North of here(Newcastle) from his hacking programme which is 180 mile away for gods sake. He even told me people have picked them up in Norfolk. A particular Gyr/Peregrine he lost took residence on a sea cliff, killing seagulls regularly. close by to a resident Peregrines nest. Thankfully a falconer after a long week managed to trap the offending Hybrid.
Back of the Net.... 'Buttons':idea:

[SmallPeregrine]

Where did i criticise the breeder? You had stated that Mr Garland bred pure peregrinus birds. If that i have no doubt - i was merely saying that he also produces non peregrinus birds - and its potentially these non native sub species that could affect the genetics of the wild population.
I know what you were insinuating

[Dean]

I agree with someone,stop wild hacking falcons,wheres the advantage anyhow????

[HallBeck]

I know what you were insinuating

No you don't. You didn't even take the time to read what i had written - but you now think that you know what i hadn't written.

Its obvious that you are trying to cause trouble with this thread. Your lack of manners and blatent rudeness is testament to that.

[SmallPeregrine]

No you don't. You didn't even take the time to read what i had written - but you now think that you know what i hadn't written.

Its obvious that you are trying to cause trouble with this thread. Your lack of manners and blatent rudeness is testament to that.

What positive post have you summited with Facts?:?:
This is a serious thread & I am not trying to cause trouble at all, if you dont like the thread go elsewhere:idea:

[SmallPeregrine]

I agree with someone,stop wild hacking falcons,wheres the advantage anyhow????
Exactly Dean;).... theres other ways to get Hybrids fit for Arab market ie. Hack Pens etc:idea:.

[HallBeck]

This is a serious thread & I am not trying to cause trouble at all, if you dont like the thread go elsewhere


I know what you were insinuating



Back of the Net.... 'Buttons':idea:

Causing trouble by being offensive

Like I have said to you before I'm very assiduous in my research on any subject matter before I post on here Tony ...... I feel sometimes you do the complete opposite and not just on here:shock:
Read the facts and concerns relating to escaped hybrids and get back to me and stop trying to be teachers pet all the time its getting tedious:roll:

Ditto

Like I have said to you before I'm very assiduous in my research on any subject matter before I post on here Tony ...... I feel sometimes you do the complete opposite and not just on here:shock:
Read the facts and concerns relating to escaped hybrids and get back to me and stop trying to be teachers pet all the time its getting tedious

Ditto

What positive post have you summited with Facts?



Hybrids rarely interbreed with our native birds - but theres no reason at all that an Anatum/pergrinus minor subspecies hybrid, if lost, wouldn't breed with a wild bird.

Fact

What about the Brookei that Mr Garlands breeds? .

Fact

Personally i wouldn't - Peregrines can and do cover large distances and Perth to Kent wouldn't be a problem.



Fact

Yep - a Scottish Peregrine is not a distinct subspecies.

Fact

[Tony James]

I think am I correct in saying N.Fox ceased his hacking programme because of the losses he incurred. I am friends with a breeder who does wild hacking, conservatively I think he has lost in the region 30 hybrids over the years, he even puts transmitters on his:idea:.
I tracked one North of here(Newcastle) from his hacking programme which is 180 mile away for gods sake. He even told me people have picked them up in Norfolk. A particular Gyr/Peregrine he lost took residence on a sea cliff, killing seagulls regularly. close by to a resident Peregrines nest. Thankfully a falconer after a long week managed to trap the offending Hybrid.
Back of the Net.... 'Buttons':idea:

Now think hard about what you've written there Phil.
Did those hawks attempt to breed with our native peregrines? Did they displace or kill them? Did they do anything other than what a lost flying hawk would do?
Back of the net? More like tripped at the first whistle.
Now can you answer the question?

HOW MANY BREEDING ATTEMPTS ARE DOCUMENTED IN THE UK BETWEEN WILD NATIVE PEREGRINES AND HYBRIDS LOST AT HACK?

If you can answer that simple question you will have gone a long way to establishing why your attack on Gary is so ill founded.

[SmallPeregrine]

Further reading G.Kleinstauber
A particular worrying threat is the danger of genetic pollution by fee flying Hybrid male Gyr falcon x Peregrine which mate with wild peregrines and produce hybrid offspring. This happened repeatedly, e.g in six cases in east Germany. A Male Gyr/peregrine hybrid escaped from a falconer, was found paired with a Peregrine at a traditional cliff-nesting site in Thuringia in 1995. The pair produced 2 viable hybrid eggs which successfully hatched- the 1st time this had happened anywhere in the world. The hybrid chick were taken and and replaced with Peregrines chicks after they fledged the hybrid was caught up. Since then it is clear that Hybrids between large Falcon species can exert a genetic impact on small Peregrine populations. Therefore a gradual displacement of the native Peregrines by the physical superiority of individuals descending from the Gyr Falcons could occur. Since these events, we have seen similar incidents in Germany on all most a annual Basis.
AWS asks Falconers emphatically not to train such Hybrids in free flight, because they really endanger the fitness of wild Peregrine populations, especially in the state of their recovery'

[Crawford]

Don`t you think the commercial breeders are hacking just for one thing......Money!
Look at what Garlands is charging for a hacked GxS male and you will see why he does it. That bird is worth nothing out of the avairy?
And yes, alot of time does go into hacking but please, Everthing seems to be a gxs or hybrid.
I personally would like to see NO hybrid WILD hacked unless imprinted. Hybrids do breed with wild stock, so every positive measure should be put in place to stop this happening.

[SmallPeregrine]

What a ridiculous question 'Buttons' all Hybrids are bred for Falconry purposes..... a Village is missing you somewhere:goodman:
I think Stephen Hawking's would struggle with that one 'Buttons',

Up to date there has been 3 UK and as the book states P.Everitt & J.Franklin;
'there is documented evidence of hybrids escaping and breeding in USA, Germany, Sweden and now the UK. From our experience with this bird, if the breeding of hybrids for Falconry continues, it would be beneficial that all such birds should wear a distinctive ring that would allow immediate separation of pure-bred indigenous raptors, hybrids and non-indigenous species. Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'.

To make it easier to understand, this, cut and pasted from my earlier post.
How many examples can you cite of breeding attempts involving hybrid falcons lost by falconers (and let's add, lost during the course of falconry as trained hawks)? A handful perhaps.
Of that handful, how many are you aware of that were lost at hack rather than as trained hawks? None I suspect.


Now think hard about what you've written there Phil.
Did those hawks attempt to breed with our native peregrines? Did they displace or kill them? Did they do anything other than what a lost flying hawk would do?
Back of the net? More like tripped at the first whistle.
Now can you answer the question?

HOW MANY BREEDING ATTEMPTS ARE DOCUMENTED IN THE UK BETWEEN WILD NATIVE PEREGRINES AND HYBRIDS LOST AT HACK?

If you can answer that simple question you will have gone a long way to establishing why your attack on Gary is so ill founded.

Nobody knows the answer to that Buttons, the more Hybrids out there hightens the chance of proliferation with wild stock as G.Kleinstauber states. As Dean states and I agree, tame hacking in this day and age is unnessacary. Now I have give you facts about Hacking programme I know and sub sequent losses, has Gary confided in you how many he has lost?
Hybrids are a potential threat to Peregrines populations..period. Now you can put as much Spin on that as you like, but the evidence is there in black and white 'Buttons' Back of the net:idea:.
I would rather have Captive bred Peregrines flying around the UK, than hybrids and would be quietly confident they will have little or any impression on our native stock.
As I contested this issue with G.Wall, I think we have some of the best lines of captive Bred Peregrines in the world obviously he thinks differ:roll:

[SmallPeregrine]

Don`t you think the commercial breeders are hacking just for one thing......Money!
Look at what Garlands is charging for a hacked GxS male and you will see why he does it. That bird is worth nothing out of the avairy?
And yes, alot of time does go into hacking but please, Everthing seems to be a gxs or hybrid.
I personally would like to see NO hybrid WILD hacked unless imprinted. Hybrids do breed with wild stock, so every positive measure should be put in place to stop this happening.

Well said Crawford

[Tony James]

Don`t you think the commercial breeders are hacking just for one thing......Money!
Look at what Garlands is charging for a hacked GxS male and you will see why he does it. That bird is worth nothing out of the avairy?
And yes, alot of time does go into hacking but please, Everthing seems to be a gxs or hybrid.
I personally would like to see NO hybrid WILD hacked unless imprinted. Hybrids do breed with wild stock, so every positive measure should be put in place to stop this happening.

Hi Paul,

I imagine the very fact that they are 'commercial' breeders, suggests that commercial considerations are made when it comes to hacking. But the cost of a hawk is not relevant to it's potential to be invasive.

There have been a tiny handful of documented breeding attempts involving lost falconers' hybrids, but we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Do we look to ban all non-indigenous hawks because of their potential to effect the eco system?

As you know, my passion is for indigenous hawks, but I fear that falconers will talk up non existant problems to the point they seem real enough to act on, endangering falconry in a country that, despite some problems, has much to be proud of.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Nobody knows the answer to that Buttons, the more Hybrids out there hightens the chance of proliferation with wild stock as G.Kleinstauber states. As Dean states and I agree, tame hacking in this day and age is unnessacary. Now I have give you facts about Hacking programme I know and sub sequent losses, has Gary confided in you how many he has lost?
Hybrids are a potential threat to Peregrines populations..period. Now you can put as much Spin on that as you like, but the evidence is there in black and white 'Buttons' Back of the net:idea:.
I would rather have Captive bred Peregrines flying around the UK, than hybrids and would be quietly confident they will have little or any impression on our native stock.
As I contested this issue with G.Wall, I think we have some of the best lines of captive Bred Peregrines in the world obviously he thinks differ:roll:

So to sum up, you are arguing not just against hacking hybrids, but against flying them at all?

[SmallPeregrine]

To make it easier to understand, this, cut and pasted from my earlier post.
How many examples can you cite of breeding attempts involving hybrid falcons lost by falconers (and let's add, lost during the course of falconry as trained hawks)? A handful perhaps.
Of that handful, how many are you aware of that were lost at hack rather than as trained hawks? None I suspect.


Like I have said to you before I'm very assiduous in my research on any subject matter before I post on here Tony ...... I feel sometimes you do the complete opposite and not just on here:shock:
I suggest you acquire the new edition of The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century authors Janusz Sielicki & Tadeusz Mizera additional authors Dr M.Gage.
Read the facts and concerns relating to escaped hybrids and get back to me and stop trying to be teachers pet all the time its getting tedious

Looking at the last Audit the Hawkboard published they stated 2,312 hybrids have been lost here in the UK:idea:
Can you tell me if all them Hybrids were reclaimed:?::?:

[Tony James]

Looking at the last Audit the Hawkboard published they stated 2,312 hybrids have been lost here in the UK:idea:
Can you tell me if all them Hybrids were reclaimed:?::?:

So to sum up, you are arguing not just against hacking hybrids, but against flying them at all?

[Tony James]

What positive post have you summited with Facts?:?:
This is a serious thread & I am not trying to cause trouble at all, if you dont like the thread go elsewhere:idea:

I've got to ask you Phil, is your rudeness purely by accident then?

[Gozzhawk]

Here lies my thoughts , they may be up in the clouds , its where I like the air.
When Peregrine populations were at all time lows after WWII where did the new ones come from?? Someone says the have a 'Scottish Peregrine' , really?? Breeders are I'm almost sure selling birds they THINK are 100% Peregrinus peregrinus when in fact 3 or 4 generations ago it was not...............
As for Hybrids , thats another thread .
Easy solution then , pay for yourself to have your peregrine genetically profiled. I am currently not in the UK and I have seen a Peregrine (supposed peregrinus bred in an EU country) and I can tell you for sure its moulting like no Peregrinus peregrinus I have seen!!

I'm sure that wont help , as none of this thread will ...................

[Falcons7]

For what its worth , Iv been againt peregrine hybreds for years (peregrinus x sub-speices ) as comon sence says that they are more likely to breed with the wild stock .A gyr x Saker etc is much less to want to breed or am I missing something .
I cant see where hacking big falcons to make a few quid ( by the way ,some folk make it sound like a crime to expect a breeding project to make a profit !) , its good for the falcons and the hack pen isnt the same ,I know as i work with 2 of the biggest in the world . The falcons dont get to fly at any altitude for a start .
Now Phil , and although I can see your point , arnt you flying a peri x peali and a peregrinus x barbary , if you were to loose one of these , would that not be a threat to our wild population , it has to work both ways , if your against hybrids you have to be againt ALL hybids or none at all mate . I like native falcons , I breed native falcons as you kindly said and if I found out one of my falcons had barbrey etc.in it it would be off the place asap
jeff

[FalcoTom]

Hi Paul,

I imagine the very fact that they are 'commercial' breeders, suggests that commercial considerations are made when it comes to hacking. But the cost of a hawk is not relevant to it's potential to be invasive.

There have been a tiny handful of documented breeding attempts involving lost falconers' hybrids, but we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Do we look to ban all non-indigenous hawks because of their potential to effect the eco system?

As you know, my passion is for indigenous hawks, but I fear that falconers will talk up non existant problems to the point they seem real enough to act on, endangering falconry in a country that, despite some problems, has much to be proud of.

Best wishes,

Tony.

My thoughts exactly.

Why any so called falconer would give ammunition to the anti falconry brigade is above me.

Atb
Tom

[FalcoTom]

For what its worth , Iv been againt peregrine hybreds for years (peregrinus x sub-speices ) as comon sence says that they are more likely to breed with the wild stock .A gyr x Saker etc is much less to want to breed or am I missing something .
I cant see where hacking big falcons to make a few quid ( by the way ,some folk make it sound like a crime to expect a breeding project to make a profit !) , its good for the falcons and the hack pen isnt the same ,I know as i work with 2 of the biggest in the world . The falcons dont get to fly at any altitude for a start .
Now Phil , and although I can see your point , arnt you flying a peri x peali and a peregrinus x barbary , if you were to loose one of these , would that not be a threat to our wild population , it has to work both ways , if your against hybrids you have to be againt ALL hybids or none at all mate . I like native falcons , I breed native falcons as you kindly said and if I found out one of my falcons had barbrey etc.in it it would be off the place asap
jeff

Good post.

Perhaps the peregrine hybrids should be made to wear pink rings or something to make identification easily recognisible.

Tom

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

Hi Paul,

As you know, my passion is for indigenous hawks,
Tony.

Thats strange. Im sure someone said you've just taken up a pere x barbary Tony :lol:

Having said that the pere x barbary will probably become the indigenous peregrine in the UK if its not already, in captivity anyway. Thats maybe why the old boys say the size has come down as the barb crosses are easier to breed.

[CloakDaggerTiercel]

For what its worth , Iv been againt peregrine hybreds for years (peregrinus x sub-speices ) as comon sence says that they are more likely to breed with the wild stock .A gyr x Saker etc is much less to want to breed or am I missing something .
I cant see where hacking big falcons to make a few quid ( by the way ,some folk make it sound like a crime to expect a breeding project to make a profit !) , its good for the falcons and the hack pen isnt the same ,I know as i work with 2 of the biggest in the world . The falcons dont get to fly at any altitude for a start .
Now Phil , and although I can see your point , arnt you flying a peri x peali and a peregrinus x barbary , if you were to loose one of these , would that not be a threat to our wild population , it has to work both ways , if your against hybrids you have to be againt ALL hybids or none at all mate . I like native falcons , I breed native falcons as you kindly said and if I found out one of my falcons had barbrey etc.in it it would be off the place asap
jeff

Jeff,

Its a valid sentiment Jeff but surely the horse has bolted on the peregrine cross issue.
The USA population was rebuilt with mongrels and they have been flying them, losing them for decades here so the genie seems to be out of the bottle.
I bet if you banned the peregrinus cross, you would have to put a line through 90 % of captive population.

[GSP]

For what its worth , Iv been againt peregrine hybreds for years (peregrinus x sub-speices ) as comon sence says that they are more likely to breed with the wild stock .A gyr x Saker etc is much less to want to breed or am I missing something .
I cant see where hacking big falcons to make a few quid ( by the way ,some folk make it sound like a crime to expect a breeding project to make a profit !) , its good for the falcons and the hack pen isnt the same ,I know as i work with 2 of the biggest in the world . The falcons dont get to fly at any altitude for a start .
Now Phil , and although I can see your point , arnt you flying a peri x peali and a peregrinus x barbary , if you were to loose one of these , would that not be a threat to our wild population , it has to work both ways , if your against hybrids you have to be againt ALL hybids or none at all mate . I like native falcons , I breed native falcons as you kindly said and if I found out one of my falcons had barbrey etc.in it it would be off the place asap
jeff

Hi Jeff this is exactly where my own thoughts are.
People on here have to think about what they are wishing for just in case they get it.
The amount of times people on here are contradicted all the while the person throwing the stones is just as guilty.
Some people just like to sing from someone else’s hymn sheet weather they like the song or not.

[Falcons7]

Good colour choice , dayglo pink :lol:


Good post.

Perhaps the peregrine hybrids should be made to wear pink rings or something to make identification easily recognisible.

Tom

[Falcons7]

I dont get it , no one is pushin hard to ban hacking so why do we think we should do it anyway , maybe the fox hunters should have banned themselves years ago to save the fuss :rolleyes:



Hi Jeff this is exactly where my own thoughts are.
People on here have to think about what they are wishing for just in case they get it.
The amount of times people on here are contradicted all the while the person throwing the stones is just as guilty.
Some people just like to sing from someone else’s hymn sheet weather they like the song or not.

[Tony James]

Thats strange. Im sure someone said you've just taken up a pere x barbary Tony :lol:

Having said that the pere x barbary will probably become the indigenous peregrine in the UK if its not already, in captivity anyway. Thats maybe why the old boys say the size has come down as the barb crosses are easier to breed.

Easier to breed? I didn't know that.
Yes I have just taken up a peregrine x barbary, a falcon in the 1lb 13oz range, and she's lovely.
I hope that doesn't invalidate any thoughts I might have on the subject:lol:

[Falcons7]

Your probably right but I dont think our peregrines were in as bad of a state as in the US also I dont think we did a program like in the US.


YJeff,

Its a valid sentiment Jeff but surely the horse has bolted on the peregrine cross issue.
The USA population was rebuilt with mongrels and they have been flying them, losing them for decades here so the genie seems to be out of the bottle.
I bet if you banned the peregrinus cross, you would have to put a line through 90 % of captive population.

[SmallPeregrine]

I've got to ask you Phil, is your rudeness purely by accident then?
Sorry just come back from Hospital
Where your concerned.........No

[Tony James]

Sorry just come back from Hospital
Where your concerned.........No

Am I concerned that you're back?
You bet I am:lol:

[SmallPeregrine]

So to sum up, you are arguing not just against hacking hybrids, but against flying them at all?

Sounds like you got a touch of Alzheimer's creeping in there Buttons
Thats twice you've posted that:shock:

[Falcons7]

Phil , Tony got another top draw come back in , it was a topper , you gota admit.
JEFF

[Tony James]

Sounds like you got a touch of Alzheimer's creeping in there Buttons
Thats twice you've posted that:shock:

And you forgot to answer it both times!

[SmallPeregrine]

For what its worth , Iv been againt peregrine hybreds for years (peregrinus x sub-speices ) as comon sence says that they are more likely to breed with the wild stock .A gyr x Saker etc is much less to want to breed or am I missing something .
I cant see where hacking big falcons to make a few quid ( by the way ,some folk make it sound like a crime to expect a breeding project to make a profit !) , its good for the falcons and the hack pen isnt the same ,I know as i work with 2 of the biggest in the world . The falcons dont get to fly at any altitude for a start .
Now Phil , and although I can see your point , arnt you flying a peri x peali and a peregrinus x barbary , if you were to loose one of these , would that not be a threat to our wild population , it has to work both ways , if your against hybrids you have to be againt ALL hybids or none at all mate . I like native falcons , I breed native falcons as you kindly said and if I found out one of my falcons had barbrey etc.in it it would be off the place asap
jeff

Do you really believe the so called Peregrine stud book thats out there. Messrs Summers could have made it all up, I haven't seen it, have you:?:.And to be honest I know what went on in the 80's, my advice would be believe half what you see and nouwt what you hear concerning that Data base. My Tiercel has got Peale's in him, the female if that has Barbary in it that means Chris's lines have got Barbary in it too, Chris said it were Black Shaheen. At the end of the Day she doesn't look like she has Barbary in her unless your relating to her size:?:
As for Hybrids, arnt most hybrids chamber raised by imprinted Peregrines and when lost do you think they will relate readily to wild Peregrines because of the fact:idea::?:

[SmallPeregrine]

Phil , Tony got another top draw come back in , it was a topper , you gota admit.
JEFF
Which one I must of missed that 1

[SmallPeregrine]

Good post.

Perhaps the peregrine hybrids should be made to wear pink rings or something to make identification easily recognisible.

Tom
I agree Peregrine/Sakers, Peregrine/Gyrs Peregrine/Prairies basically all Hybrids. Thats what Steve Williams proposed

[SmallPeregrine]

And you forgot to answer it both times!
I'll answer that when you admitt there is a growing problem with escaped Hybrids breeding with Wild Peregrines

[SmallPeregrine]

Looking at the last Audit the Hawkboard published they stated 2,312 hybrids have been lost here in the UK:idea:
Can you tell me if all them Hybrids were reclaimed:?::?:
Can you answer this while you on:?:

[David Rampling]

Although an imprint reared by a Peregrine might try and mate with one, wouldn't most wild Peregrines try and avoid the advances of a hybrid, especially with a huge population of wild stock to choose from? Are not a large percentage of hybrids infertile? Wouldn't natural selection return the hybridised stock to that which is best designed to survive in our environment? Ie the Peregrine after a generation or two. I personally believe there is something special about a hacked bird. They have learned to fly at a time when their body is most responsive to that learning. Just my uneducated musings. Atb

[SmallPeregrine]

Further reading G.Kleinstauber
A particular worrying threat is the danger of genetic pollution by fee flying Hybrid male Gyr falcon x Peregrine which mate with wild peregrines and produce hybrid offspring. This happened repeatedly, e.g in six cases in east Germany. A Male Gyr/peregrine hybrid escaped from a falconer, was found paired with a Peregrine at a traditional cliff-nesting site in Thuringia in 1995. The pair produced 2 viable hybrid eggs which successfully hatched- the 1st time this had happened anywhere in the world. The hybrid chick were taken and and replaced with Peregrines chicks after they fledged the hybrid was caught up. Since then it is clear that Hybrids between large Falcon species can exert a genetic impact on small Peregrine populations. Therefore a gradual displacement of the native Peregrines by the physical superiority of individuals descending from the Gyr Falcons could occur. Since these events, we have seen similar incidents in Germany on all most a annual Basis.
AWS asks Falconers emphatically not to train such Hybrids in free flight, because they really endanger the fitness of wild Peregrine populations, especially in the state of their recovery'

Although an imprint reared by a Peregrine might try and mate with one, wouldn't most wild Peregrines try and avoid the advances of a hybrid, especially with a huge population of wild stock to choose from? Are not a large percentage of hybrids infertile? Wouldn't natural selection return the hybridised stock to that which is best designed to survive in our environment? Atb

I think its the opposite Dave. As I mentioned on other threads I think its the same case scenorio as the Ruddy Duck breeding with Spanish white fronted Duck. I was told many times that the Hybrids are infertile but not true. Theres at least 3 breeders I know that have Gyr/Peregrines naturally breeding with Peregrines and Sakers in Captivity and have done for years:idea:

[GameHawker]

So how many examples are there of wild breeding attempts involving hybrids in the UK can anyone answer?

Carl

[David Rampling]

I think its the opposite Dave. As I mentioned on other threads I think its the same case scenorio as the Ruddy Duck breeding with Spanish white fronted Duck. I was told many times that the Hybrids are infertile but not true. Theres at least 3 breeders I know that have Gyr/Peregrines naturally breeding with Peregrines and Sakers in Captivity and have done for years:idea:

I am no expert on this subject. Am prepared to be educated by those with a better knowlege on this subject than I. Atb

[SmallPeregrine]

So how many examples are there of wild breeding attempts involving hybrids in the UK can anyone answer?

Carl
Look at the posts the answer lies within

[GameHawker]

Look at the posts the answer lies within

Is there any documented evidence of these 3 attempts.

Regards

Carl

[Crawford]

So how many examples are there of wild breeding attempts involving hybrids in the UK can anyone answer?

Carl

I heard of one GxP breeding with a wild peregrine on the south coast. The GxP was shot under licence and eggs removed!......."so I was told"

So called experts said these GxP were low to totally infertile....I know several males that are breeding with peregrines also, a pair of GxP`s that breed naturally.

[Crawford]

Although an imprint reared by a Peregrine might try and mate with one, wouldn't most wild Peregrines try and avoid the advances of a hybrid, especially with a huge population of wild stock. Atb

Hi David, imagine a gxp being a illegal Emigrant in this country. There is always a ginger minger willing to wed him because they can`t get anything else:lol:

[GameHawker]

I heard of one GxP breeding with a wild peregrine on the south coast. The GxP was shot under licence and eggs removed!......."so I was told"

So called experts said these GxP were low to totally infertile....I know several males that are breeding with peregrines also, a pair of GxP`s that breed naturally.

No proof then its here say?

[SmallPeregrine]

No proof then its here say?

Carl read the bloody thread the info is there and the book has photos of the pair copulating

[HallBeck]

Carl read the bloody thread the info is there and the book has photos of the pair copulating

Are you a diplomat or maybe a hostage negotiator?

You have a wonderfully elegant way with words and an amazing technique of pouring oil on troubled waters.







NOT!:D

[SmallPeregrine]

Are you a diplomat or maybe a hostage negotiator?

You have a wonderfully elegant way with words and an amazing technique of pouring oil on troubled waters.







NOT!:D
Whatever:roll:

[GameHawker]

Carl read the bloody thread the info is there and the book has photos of the pair copulating

Where can I or anyone get the bloody book from?

[Sprout]

Where can I or anyone get the bloody book from?

I'd be interested too - get some answers, which is what I was hoping to find on this thread rather than what it has turned into - someones soap box to cause an arguement and not answer the questions posed out of pure genuine curiosity

[Pitbull]

‘Captive bred peregrines are the biggest threat to the genetic pollution of our UK population of Peregrines’!:shock:
I nearly dropped off my seat and after a heated exchange of PMS, then PMS abruptly ceased. I have pondered on whether start this thread but I did ask Chiquera and he has’t said No.


I still can't see why you think captive bred "pure" pregrines are better quality or even similar to the wild stock, for them not to be a threat.
Maybe they are not. I don't know, but just because you reel off well known names, it doesn't mean man knows better than evolution in nature. And no I ain,t reading any book, as books are made up of statistics not entire facts. I don't look at it from a blood line veiw, more of a microscopic point of veiw, and how extensive breeding in captivity changes the body and its functions too infection, and the likes.

[GameHawker]

I'd be interested too - get some answers, which is what I was hoping to find on this thread rather than what it has turned into - someones soap box to cause an arguement and not answer the questions posed out of pure genuine curiosity

Thanks Karl, that's all I'm trying to find out is there any documented proof of hybrids breeding in this country, I'm not interested in the US or the rest of eu just the UK. All I have ever heard is here say past from one to another lets see some facts.

Thanks Carl

[SmallPeregrine]

Where can I or anyone get the bloody book from?
same place as me the Peregrine Fund

[SmallPeregrine]

I'd be interested too - get some answers, which is what I was hoping to find on this thread rather than what it has turned into - someones soap box to cause an arguement and not answer the questions posed out of pure genuine curiosity
Like I have stated to Carl read the thread in its entirety and you will find the answers;-)

[SmallPeregrine]

I have no experience in falcons,


I still can't see why you think captive bred "pure" pregrines are better quality or even similar to the wild stock, for them not to be a threat.
Maybe they are not. I don't know, but just because you reel off well known names, it doesn't mean man knows better than evolution in nature. And no I ain,t reading any book, as books are made up of statistics not entire facts. I don't look at it from a blood line veiw, more of a microscopic point of veiw, and how extensive breeding in captivity changes the body and its functions too infection, and the likes.

I think your 1st post says it all:idea:

[Sprout]

I think your 1st post says it all:idea:

If you want people to listen to you I suggest you change your attitude - I don't see how what bird someone flies renders their opinion valid or not?? I know some excellent genetic scientists who could shoot you to pieces with their genetic knowledge, yet they don't fly birds at all -does that make their science any less valid???

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Thanks Karl, that's all I'm trying to find out is there any documented proof of hybrids breeding in this country, I'm not interested in the US or the rest of eu just the UK. All I have ever heard is here say past from one to another lets see some facts.

Thanks Carl

I have tried to get the same, there is supposingly hybrids been breeding and producing young in Sweden, UK and Germany, but no one have been able to provide any proper documented information like DNA samples from the young and parents to prove that young actually been produced by the pair (now you would have thought this is the very first thing that the anti groups would have done to build a strong case against hybrids) , every time either male or female have died and been disposed of before blood was taken or miracously flown of and obandomed nest and young.

[Pitbull]

I think your 1st post says it all:idea:

Then enlighten me why YOU believe that the captive bred is better or no threat just because you reel off names is not a factual bases on saying they are no threat to the wild population.
give me your thoughts and stop quoting books, which might be good reading, but are just statistics.

For all you know I might learn something.

Remember you asked our opinion, and thats all I have given.

" I know my opinion about the quality of Peregrines bred in the UK and Chiquera’s comments’. I wanting to know others peoples opinions"

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Then enlighten me why YOU believe that the captive bred is better or no threat just because you reel off names is not a factual bases on saying they are no threat to the wild population.
give me your thoughts and stop quoting books, which might be good reading, but are just statistics.

For all you know I might learn something.

Remember you asked our opinion, and thats all I have given.

" I know my opinion about the quality of Peregrines bred in the UK and Chiquera’s comments’. I wanting to know others peoples opinions"

As small peregrine knows VERY well ;), a lot of birds were nicked from the wild in the early days and some breeders used there pairs to launder these wild taken birds from, on the behalf of the people who removed them from the nest, so even though some of the paperwork might say that the bird have Barbary etc. in it, it could very well been laundered from the wild and have wild stock as real parents, this goes back a good 10-20 years before people were actually successfully breeding large numbers of captive peregrines. This could be one of the reasons why he dont feel that some captive breed peregrines would be a treat against the wild population.

[SmallPeregrine]

If you want people to listen to you I suggest you change your attitude - I don't see how what bird someone flies renders their opinion valid or not?? I know some excellent genetic scientists who could shoot you to pieces with their genetic knowledge, yet they don't fly birds at all -does that make their science any less valid???
I be very interested to hear there views...... am sure Dr M.Gage (HaggisHawker) who is a Falconer and co author The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century would be interested too:idea:

[Pitbull]

As small peregrine knows VERY well ;), a lot of birds were nicked from the wild in the early days and some breeders used there pairs to launder these wild taken birds from, on the behalf of the people who removed them from the nest, so even though some of the paperwork might say that the bird have Barbary etc. in it, it could very well been laundered from the wild and have wild stock as real parents, this goes back a good 10-20 years before people were actually successfully breeding large numbers of captive peregrines. This could be one of the reasons why he dont feel that some captive breed peregrines would be a treat against the wild population.

Thankyou, obviously I have and don't want to get into what has been. But unfortunately this will only be based on hear say and statistics.
But my main argument if it was an argument is even if they were found to be 101% pure uk stock, and no barbary, or whatever, it does not mean that we as humans know that we are breeding quality, on the same levels as the wild population. But I am not saying that the UK population is superior either. But in the end unfortunately time will tell. we may find that 50 yrs away we are looking back at "pure" stock that are starting to suffer breathing problems, joint problems and the likes.

We humans are in charge of our own evolution, and Im not talking about the environment or that. But the state of our own bodies. More cancers, affected by bugs, etc etc. If that is what we are doing to ourselves why can we truely belive that we are helping the raptor population through captive breeding.

Time will truely be the answer.

[Sprout]

I be very interested to hear there views...... am sure Dr M.Gage (HaggisHawker) who is a Falconer and co author The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century would be interested too:idea:

You miss my point (something you appear to be very skilled at reading this thread??) - I was trying to get across the fact that just because someone doesn't fly a peregrine doesn't mean their input is any less valid. Oh, and if you see Matt say him from me, know him well and knew him before he had his first bird.

[GameHawker]

I be very interested to hear there views...... am sure Dr M.Gage (HaggisHawker) who is a Falconer and co author The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century would be interested too:idea:




Just brought the book from this site cost £129.50 Inc shipping http://www.nhbs.com/peregrine_falcon_populations_tefno_163413.html&tab_tag=album hope this is the right one.

Carl

[SmallPeregrine]

Then enlighten me why YOU believe that the captive bred is better or no threat just because you reel off names is not a factual bases on saying they are no threat to the wild population.
give me your thoughts and stop quoting books, which might be good reading, but are just statistics.

For all you know I might learn something.

Remember you asked our opinion, and thats all I have given.

" I know my opinion about the quality of Peregrines bred in the UK and Chiquera’s comments’. I wanting to know others peoples opinions"
heay no need to swear:idea:....... if I posted like that on here I get an infraction (wouldnt I Sara, Eagle Owl and Soloky:?:) as quick as I could spell it:idea:

[SmallPeregrine]

Just brought the book from this site cost £129.50 Inc shipping http://www.nhbs.com/peregrine_falcon_populations_tefno_163413.html&tab_tag=album hope this is the right one.

Carl
If its titled Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century thats the one:wink:

[SmallPeregrine]

As small peregrine knows VERY well ;), a lot of birds were nicked from the wild in the early days and some breeders used there pairs to launder these wild taken birds from, on the behalf of the people who removed them from the nest, so even though some of the paperwork might say that the bird have Barbary etc. in it, it could very well been laundered from the wild and have wild stock as real parents, this goes back a good 10-20 years before people were actually successfully breeding large numbers of captive peregrines. This could be one of the reasons why he dont feel that some captive breed peregrines would be a treat against the wild population.
Exactly Sara, I think your partner Rob would be 100% behind me on my beliefs;)

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

heay no need to swear:idea:....... if I posted like that on here I get an infraction (wouldnt I Sara, Eagle Owl and Soloky:?:) as quick as I could spell it:idea:

Normally it would be edited and a PM sent not to swear......;)

[David Rampling]

I have seen the photos of the wild peregrine copulating with the Gyr hybrid on the chalk cliff face, I saw the photos of the hatched chicks with both parents in attendance and lastly the photo of the Hybrid after it had been shot. So I guess it happens, albeit rarely one would hope.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I have seen the photos of the wild peregrine copulating with the Gyr hybrid on the chalk cliff face, I saw the photos of the hatched chicks with both parents in attendance and lastly the photo of the Hybrid after it had been shot. So I guess it happens, albeit rarely one would hope.

same as me then, so why on earth was no blood drawn from the pair and young to prove that the young was indeed breed by the two birds and not planted etc etc.....

[SmallPeregrine]

I have seen the photos of the wild peregrine copulating with the Gyr hybrid on the chalk cliff face, I saw the photos of the hatched chicks with both parents in attendance and lastly the photo of the Hybrid after it had been shot. So I guess it happens, albeit rarely one would hope.
could you post em on here:idea::?:

[David Rampling]

could you post em on here:idea::?:

I dont own them, they where shown to me last year at a meeting.

[SmallPeregrine]

OK Phil,

not having a copy, perhaps you can do what you often ask others to, and answer the questions.
How many breeding attempts can you cite involving lost falconers hybrids, and in particular those lost at hack?

Tony.

Nobody knows the answer to that Buttons, the more Hybrids out there hightens the chance of proliferation with wild stock as G.Kleinstauber states. As Dean states and I agree, tame hacking in this day and age is unnessacary. Now I have give you facts about Hacking programme I know and sub sequent losses, has Gary confided in you how many he has lost?
Hybrids are a potential threat to Peregrines populations..period. Now you can put as much Spin on that as you like, but the evidence is there in black and white 'Buttons' Back of the net.
I would rather have Captive bred Peregrines flying around the UK, than hybrids and would be quietly confident they will have little or any impression on our native stock.
As I contested this issue with G.Wall, I think we have some of the best lines of captive Bred Peregrines in the world obviously he thinks differ:roll:

Looking at the last Audit 2005 the Hawkboard published they stated 2,312 hybrids have been lost here in the UK:idea:
Can you tell me if all them Hybrids were reclaimed:?::?:

And you forgot to answer it both times!

I'll answer that when you admitt there is a growing problem with escaped Hybrids breeding with Wild Peregrines
ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[FalcoTom]

I still can't see why you think captive bred "pure" pregrines are better quality or even similar to the wild stock, for them not to be a threat.
Maybe they are not. I don't know, but just because you reel off well known names, it doesn't mean man knows better than evolution in nature. And no I ain,t reading any book, as books are made up of statistics not entire facts. I don't look at it from a blood line veiw, more of a microscopic point of veiw, and how extensive breeding in captivity changes the body and its functions too infection, and the likes.

I can`t see how the wild stock are different to the captive stock bearing in mind the very few peregrines in the 70s and 80s and the amount of hawks lost (sub species) prior to telemetry. Surely these lost passage and haggards of the sub species have bred with the native stock .
Tom

[SmallPeregrine]

I dont own them, they where shown to me last year at a meeting.
Managed to scan the pictures were these the ones you were shown:idea::?:

[Sprout]

What is the point of this thread?? Discuss strength of captive peregrine genetics or give ammo to the anti's to get hybrids banned??

[David Rampling]

I think so. Loose photos though, not in a book. And one of the hybrid dead too. What book would that be?

[HallBeck]

What is the point of this thread?? Discuss strength of captive peregrine genetics or give ammo to the anti's to get hybrids banned??

I believe its so Mr Myers can cause arguments and can offend the maximum number of people in a short period of time.

[Quiver]

Just brought the book from this site cost £129.50 Inc shipping http://www.nhbs.com/peregrine_falcon_populations_tefno_163413.html&tab_tag=album hope this is the right one.

Carl

just found this also a bit cheaper,
http://www.falconline.eu/shop/11-28-0-Peregrine-Falcon-populations---status-and-perspectives-in-the-21st-century.html

[Redbull]

I believe its so Mr Myers can cause arguments and can offend the maximum number of people in a short period of time.

i dont think your doing to bad yourself!!!!!

[Barbary Boy]

DAM youve found out! ive had this polish book for a while now and couldnt believe the price others are now asking, i was going to buy a few and knock them out at a £100, thier still readily available from the originator at less than £60 inc postage and its a dam good book especially for anyone allready in possession of hickies and cades earlier works.

[SmallPeregrine]

What is the point of this thread?? Discuss strength of captive peregrine genetics or give ammo to the anti's to get hybrids banned??

Wow slow down the thread was started after a well known breeder who Hacks Hybrids states he is more worried about captive bred Peregrines being lost having a bigger impact on wild stock than Hybrids. If Hybrids breed in the near future more frequently with indigenous Peregrines as P.Everitt & J.Franklin states in the new edition of The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century authors Janusz Sielicki & Tadeusz Mizera additional authors Dr M.Gage;.
'Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'
I think we have to really consider the consequences if we don't act accordingly otherwise we could seriously jeopardise the long term future of Falconry( and when I mean 'Falconry' its flying trained Birds at wild Game) in the UK, do you not agree:?::idea:

[Redbull]

DAM youve found out! ive had this polish book for a while now and couldnt believe the price others are now asking, i was going to buy a few and knock them out at a £100, thier still readily available from the originator at less than £60 inc postage and its a dam good book especially for anyone allready in possession of hickies and cades earlier works.

il have one off them, thats 2 cheques will be in the post next week for ya.;)
atb steve

[SmallPeregrine]

Yep - a Scottish Peregrine is not a distinct subspecies.

You fly a Harris:goodman:

Wrong

Think you want to update your profile then:?:

No i don't. I have no desire at all for the whole world to know what bird i fly.

I believe its so Mr Myers can cause arguments and can offend the maximum number of people in a short period of time.
Hall..... kettle calling the frying pan Black ass:idea:....... how can I take what you say seriously when you openly admitt even your profile is incorrect:roll:

[Sprout]

Wow slow down the thread was started after a well known breeder who Hacks Hybrids states he is more worried about captive bred Peregrines being lost having a bigger impact on wild stock than Hybrids. If Hybrids breed in the near future more frequently with indigenous Peregrines as P.Everitt & J.Franklin states in the new edition of The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century authors Janusz Sielicki & Tadeusz Mizera additional authors Dr M.Gage;.
'Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'
I think we have to really consider the consequences if we don't act accordingly otherwise we could seriously jeopardise the long term future of Falconry( and when I mean 'Falconry' its flying trained Birds at wild Game) in the UK, do you not agree:?::idea:


So why is the thread named concerns re UK peregrines? Is it peregrines or hybrids??
Personally think this is a very interesting topic - whether any truth or not?? - but think the way some questions have been handled/or not, have totally belittled the initial thread.
Rise above it - answer what is posed to you and stick to the science you have at your hand - then more will listen and produce constructive criticism/arguement

[SmallPeregrine]

Following a debate recently with Chiquera aka Gary Wall concerning Wild Take of UK Peregrines on a Thread named Legal Take. The conversation went off on a tangent after I expressed my concerns on his tame hacking programme of Gyr hybrids, Gyr/Peregrines etc in the Lockerbie area of Scotland. My concerns were not just about potential loss and possible Genetic Pollution but the impact big Hybrids can have on the resident smaller Raptor populations (ie. Kestrels, Sparrow hawks, Merlins etc)in and around that surrounding area (especially with the Kestrels etc. broods not long out of the nests). Consequently we were told to take to PM which we did and carried on our debate. I was taken aback by his reply about my above concerns, Gary categorically stated that the;
‘Captive bred peregrines are the biggest threat to the genetic pollution of our UK population of Peregrines’!
I nearly dropped off my seat and after a heated exchange of PMS, then PMS abruptly ceased. I have pondered on whether start this thread but I did ask Chiquera and he has’t said No.
I know my opinion about the quality of Peregrines bred in the UK and Chiquera’s comments’. I wanting to know others peoples opinions:?:

So why is the thread named concerns re UK peregrines? Is it peregrines or hybrids??
Personally think this is a very interesting topic - whether any truth or not?? - but think the way some questions have been handled/or not, have totally belittled the initial thread.
Rise above it - answer what is posed to you and stick to the science you have at your hand - then more will listen and produce constructive criticism/arguement
I think Sprout this was where this thread originated from...... look at some of the questions fired at me which were at times bordering on ridiculous especially from Tony James the treasurer of BFC who should know better:!:
As I said to him Sigmund Freud and Stephen Hawking's would struggle to answer the preposterous questions he asked at times:idea::?:

[Barbary Boy]

il have one off them, thats 2 cheques will be in the post next week for ya.;)
atb steve

4 more on thier way as i speak m8 should be here soon, a really great informative book.

[Redbull]

4 more on thier way as i speak m8 should be here soon, a really great informative book.

keep me one if you got one spare mate.
atb steve.

[Pitbull]

I can`t see how the wild stock are different to the captive stock bearing in mind the very few peregrines in the 70s and 80s and the amount of hawks lost (sub species) prior to telemetry. Surely these lost passage and haggards of the sub species have bred with the native stock .
Tom
It could well be. What I was trying to say was when something is captive bred no matter how good our intensions the make up of animals can change. I don't have any facts infront of me. Never likely to either. But a bird penned up in an environment a fraction of the size that is its natural habitat, could produce lower levels in it's imune system. Passing this on to the offspring. Thus creating a chain reaction of offspring, passing the defect on, that from the outside we cannot see. Now if we are just taken it as fact that a wild peregrine has died from the notion of survival of the fitest and leave it at that without any test, only time will tell. Which by that time things could be magnified to the extent of a pandemic in the species.

This is where we hope that if anything was to happen, it would be killed off before they could breed with the wild population. Now I don't know what goes on as far as what breeders do with their birds wether or not the do livestock checks on an anual basis. But if it where to happen those that do would probably be a drop in the ocean.

This may all be pie in the sky to most but it is only my opinion.

[Barbary Boy]

i really cant accept that captive bred peregrines could be a bigger threat to wild populations than hybreds, i really cant. i find the very idea quite silly to be quite honest. there have been numerous escapees over a very many years from several sub species so i think the wild populations genetics have allready dealt with a fair bit! particularly in traditional falconry hot spots, ie certain traditional grouse moors, and in fact wild eyasses in some of these areas do not appear to conform to what people would consider the norm for that particular area? as far as hybreds are concerned most male falcon hybreds are as fertile as thier wild bred pure brothers it is only certain hybred females that are infertile so with most female gyr X peregrines being exported it leaves the considerable number of males that are flown every year to be put in the frame. and thier HAVE been a few documented occurrences of this happening including this year i believe, however the odd two or three mongrel pairs discovered probably is not a true reflection on reality as many pairs could easily go un noticed as some sites arnt visited or are just logged as breeding pair seen on site, with inadequate survelance to confirm exact species? so the problem COULD be much greater than is being recorded.
i believe that it will not become an issue long term, i think a few hybred pairs whilst undesireable will have no longterm effect overall on wild british peregrines as will any peregrine subspecies interbreeding, the very name peregrine means wanderer and im quite sure we have natural immigration from time to time. what about the americans who lost the eastern race? they produced thousands of young in captivity for release and now claim to have anatums back? produced from a captive flock of god knows how many races, better to have mongrels back than none at all surely?

[Sprout]

better to have mongrels back than none at all surely?

And surely if nature knows best, with survival of the fittest and all that - then over time even with alien subspecies introduced then the population would resort to the norm for the area with time by natural selection?? If nature meant for peregrines that are smaller or with different wing loading etc then that would have occured by natural selection - not accidental introduction???

[Barbary Boy]

dont get me wrong im as concerned as anyone about harrisXbuzzards (hazzards) redtailXbuzzards etc etc etc never mind falcon dilution, and believe it needs to be addressed but i have read enough to know that the numbers would need to be very substantial to make any real difference,
as far as wild take is concerned? why not ? give me a good reason why some wild birds into the system wouldnt be a good thing! a very good thing! and there is absolutly no good conservational reason why it shouldnt happen, none. none whatsoever, just politics falconry or otherwise?

[SmallPeregrine]

Jeff,

Its a valid sentiment Jeff but surely the horse has bolted on the peregrine cross issue.
The USA population was rebuilt with mongrels and they have been flying them, losing them for decades here so the genie seems to be out of the bottle.

What I was trying to say was when something is captive bred no matter how good our intensions the make up of animals can change. I don't have any facts infront of me. Never likely to either. But a bird penned up in an environment a fraction of the size that is its natural habitat, could produce lower levels in it's imune system. Passing this on to the offspring. Thus creating a chain reaction of offspring, passing the defect on, that from the outside we cannot see. Now if we are just taken it as fact that a wild peregrine has died from the notion of survival of the fitest and leave it at that without any test, only time will tell. Which by that time things could be magnified to the extent of a pandemic in the species.
This may all be pie in the sky to most but it is only my opinion.

Taking into account what Nick says......there has already been a pandemic in USA in the form of the West Nile Viurs/Disease the least affected in the wild and captivity was the one and only Peregrine...... based on these facts I think your thesis is way off the mark 'Pitbull:idea:

[Barbary Boy]

And surely if nature knows best, with survival of the fittest and all that - then over time even with alien subspecies introduced then the population would resort to the norm for the area with time by natural selection?? If nature meant for peregrines that are smaller or with different wing loading etc then that would have occured by natural selection - not accidental introduction???

take british goshawks as an example of what youve just said, there were none! now there are many! where did the founder stock come from? not one country of origin but many, finland, sweden norway, france, germany, hungary etc etc etc even from as far afield as japan, america and numerous other countries. so it is currently possable to find wild british goshawks in a good variety of sizes, colours and shapes but im sure given time they will evolve into a "british" type.

[Tony James]

I think Sprout this was where this thread originated from...... look at some of the questions fired at me which were at times bordering on ridiculous especially from Tony James the treasurer of BFC who should know better:!:
As I said to him Sigmund Freud and Stephen Hawking's would struggle to answer the preposterous questions he asked at times:idea::?:

I really should follow the advice of those who tell me not to talk to you, but I'll give it one more bash.
Phil, the BFC, HB and IAF, all of which you subscribe to, each have well considered positions on this subject, based on the most up to date evidence and scientific understanding.
Matt Gage is largely responsible for a policy document which quite sensibly suggests we remain open to additional evidence that may be brought to our attention and IF further evidence comes to light, perhaps of breeding attempts in the past couple of years, those policies may be altered to take account of it --- but (at least to the best of my knowledge) there is no evidence, just scaremongering and the pursuit of personal agendas at the expense of others.
My questions to you were very straight forward, and the reason you refuse to answer them is that the answer exposes your spiteful agenda.
If you wish to see hybrids banned, come out and say so, leave aside the personal attacks, and present a case to support your position that has some substance.
You owe many people an apology which of course will not be forthcoming, but in an effort to expose your foul attack on Gary for the ill informed venom it is, I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?

Tony.

[Barbary Boy]

thought he had ?

[Barbary Boy]

I really should follow the advice of those who tell me not to talk to you, but I'll give it one more bash.
Phil, the BFC, HB and IAF, all of which you subscribe to, each have well considered positions on this subject, based on the most up to date evidence and scientific understanding.
Matt Gage is largely responsible for a policy document which quite sensibly suggests we remain open to additional evidence that may be brought to our attention and IF further evidence comes to light, perhaps of breeding attempts in the past couple of years, those policies may be altered to take account of it --- but (at least to the best of my knowledge) there is no evidence, just scaremongering and the pursuit of personal agendas at the expense of others.
My questions to you were very straight forward, and the reason you refuse to answer them is that the answer exposes your spiteful agenda.
If you wish to see hybrids banned, come out and say so, leave aside the personal attacks, and present a case to support your position that has some substance.
You owe many people an apology which of course will not be forthcoming, but in an effort to expose your foul attack on Gary for the ill informed venom it is, I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?

Tony.

if the people mentioned are really on the ball, then what further scientific evidence do they need to consider a wild take? weve got raptors coming out of our ears now compaired to when we were getting licenses? sorry its a bit off topic.

[SmallPeregrine]

I think you need to look at the issue objectively Phil.
How many examples can you cite of breeding attempts involving hybrid falcons lost by falconers? A handful perhaps.
Of that handful, how many are you aware of that were lost at hack rather than as trained hawks? None I suspect.
The responsible hacking of hawks, like the responsible flying of them, will limit losses so far as possible, so what is your attack on Gary based on? Hybrids lost through hacking in this country will be a small fraction of the numbers lost as trained hawks, so by extension do you attack everyone who flies a hybrid, for being the cause of a problem that you believe exists? If so, and your argument is essentially an argument to ban the use and production of hybrids, don't you think there should be better evidence to support that view?

Tony.

OK Phil,

not having a copy, perhaps you can do what you often ask others to, and answer the questions.
How many breeding attempts can you cite involving lost falconers hybrids, and in particular those lost at hack?

Tony.

I think am I correct in saying N.Fox ceased his hacking programme because of the losses he incurred. I am friends with a breeder who does wild hacking, conservatively I think he has lost in the region 30 hybrids over the years, he even puts transmitters on his.
I tracked one North of here(Newcastle) from his hacking programme which is 180 mile away for gods sake. He even told me people have picked them up in Norfolk. A particular Gyr/Peregrine he lost took residence on a sea cliff, killing seagulls regularly. close by to a resident Peregrines nest. Thankfully a falconer after a long week managed to trap the offending Hybrid.
Back of the Net.... 'Buttons'

Further reading G.Kleinstauber
A particular worrying threat is the danger of genetic pollution by fee flying Hybrid male Gyr falcon x Peregrine which mate with wild peregrines and produce hybrid offspring. This happened repeatedly, e.g in six cases in east Germany. A Male Gyr/peregrine hybrid escaped from a falconer, was found paired with a Peregrine at a traditional cliff-nesting site in Thuringia in 1995. The pair produced 2 viable hybrid eggs which successfully hatched- the 1st time this had happened anywhere in the world. The hybrid chick were taken and and replaced with Peregrines chicks after they fledged the hybrid was caught up. Since then it is clear that Hybrids between large Falcon species can exert a genetic impact on small Peregrine populations. Therefore a gradual displacement of the native Peregrines by the physical superiority of individuals descending from the Gyr Falcons could occur. Since these events, we have seen similar incidents in Germany on all most a annual Basis.
AWS asks Falconers emphatically not to train such Hybrids in free flight, because they really endanger the fitness of wild Peregrine populations, especially in the state of their recovery'

What a ridiculous question 'Buttons' all Hybrids are bred for Falconry purposes..... a Village is missing you somewhere:goodman:
I think Stephen Hawking's would struggle with that one 'Buttons',

Up to date there has been 3 UK and as the book states P.Everitt & J.Franklin;
'there is documented evidence of hybrids escaping and breeding in USA, Germany, Sweden and now the UK. From our experience with this bird, if the breeding of hybrids for Falconry continues, it would be beneficial that all such birds should wear a distinctive ring that would allow immediate separation of pure-bred indigenous raptors, hybrids and non-indigenous species. Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'.

I have seen the photos of the wild peregrine copulating with the Gyr hybrid on the chalk cliff face, I saw the photos of the hatched chicks with both parents in attendance and lastly the photo of the Hybrid after it had been shot. So I guess it happens, albeit rarely one would hope.

Managed to scan the pictures were these the ones you were shown:?:

I really should follow the advice of those who tell me not to talk to you, but I'll give it one more bash.
Phil, the BFC, HB and IAF, all of which you subscribe to, each have well considered positions on this subject, based on the most up to date evidence and scientific understanding.
Matt Gage is largely responsible for a policy document which quite sensibly suggests we remain open to additional evidence that may be brought to our attention and IF further evidence comes to light, perhaps of breeding attempts in the past couple of years, those policies may be altered to take account of it --- but (at least to the best of my knowledge) there is no evidence, just scaremongering and the pursuit of personal agendas at the expense of others.
My questions to you were very straight forward, and the reason you refuse to answer them is that the answer exposes your spiteful agenda.
If you wish to see hybrids banned, come out and say so, leave aside the personal attacks, and present a case to support your position that has some substance.
You owe many people an apology which of course will not be forthcoming, but in an effort to expose your foul attack on Gary for the ill informed venom it is, I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?

Tony.

Wow slow down the thread was started after a well known breeder who Hacks Hybrids states he is more worried about captive bred Peregrines being lost having a bigger impact on wild stock than Hybrids. If Hybrids breed in the near future more frequently with indigenous Peregrines as P.Everitt & J.Franklin states in the new edition of The Peregrine Falcon Populations, Status and perspectives in the 21st century authors Janusz Sielicki & Tadeusz Mizera additional authors Dr M.Gage;.
'Because of the potential problems of genetic pollution and territory occupation associated with hybrids, further debate should be undertaken to consider whether the benefits of flying hybrids for Falconry are outweighed by the threats of such birds pose to wild populations'
I think we have to really consider the consequences if we don't act accordingly otherwise we could seriously jeopardise the long term future of Falconry( and when I mean 'Falconry' its flying trained Birds at wild Game) in the UK, do you not agree

How much evidence do you need I have given facts out of books and a post from a respected forum member Mr D. Rampling who has accessed to photos of a Gyr hybrid copulating with a female Peregrine on the Chalk cliff face of England. Now look at my concerns and the overall consequences of Hybrids breeding with our native Peregrine to the same Extent and impact as the Ruddy Duck has had on the Spanish white fronted Duck:idea:
No way was it a personal attack on Gary Wall I refuse to apologise I stand strongly by my opinion on this subject. I am saddened to say that commercialised breeding of Falcons and Hybrids has seriously influenced the politics of UK Falconry. As I have stated to Sprout Falconry is flying a Falcon at game in its natural state. Even you have been bought:roll:
Back of the Net...hatrick!!!

[Tony James]

Specifically Phil,

I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?

[Tony James]

Specifically Phil,

I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?

Let me save you the trouble Phil. The answer is NO.
Therefore your attack on Gary (who incidentally I do not know) and his hacking of hybrid falcons, is based on something totally unrelated to any known problems his activities might cause.

[SmallPeregrine]

Specifically Phil,

I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?
Are you saying this is not possible, have you actually read my previous repetive posts ie Mr Rampling post:?: As for personall attacks while your on the subject... what about Maddog(aka S.Williams) and your on a disciplinary from the BFC about personal attacks over his integrity on his organisational skills of the recently highly successful Norton Park meet:!:
Back of the net...AGAIN

[Tony James]

Are you saying this is not possible, have you actually read my previous repetive posts ie Mr Rampling post:?: As for personall attacks while your on the subject... what about Maddog(aka S.Williams) and your on a disciplinary from the BFC about personal attacks over his integrity on his organisational skills of the recently highly successful Norton Park meet:!:
Back of the net...AGAIN

No I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying I don't believe it has happened.

So, specifically Phil,

I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/misc/progress.gif

[SmallPeregrine]

Managed to scan the pictures were these the ones you were shown:?:

No I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying I don't believe it has happened.

So, specifically Phil,

I'll ask once more if you can cite any evidence that a hybrid falcon, lost while being hacked in the UK, has gone on to attempt to breed with a native peregrine?

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/misc/progress.gif

Are you stupid and blind or are you suffering from Dyslexia.:roll:

[Tony James]

can i ask why you are so prectective over this subject tony? i know you flw , or sorr tried to fly a female peregrine, the sister of the mesha bird brian morris had???? i thoght you would have had a different opinion. maybe the wild peregrines are like the one you and carl had. "phycologicol probloms"
atb steve

Let me be straight with you Steve,

the foolish things being suggested on this thread are in themselves not just stupid and insulting, but potentially damaging to those falconers who fly anything other than indigenous hawks.
I really don't care that Phil or anybody else chooses not to fly a hybrid --- the only thing that matters is that those who do are not put at risk by the ill judged rants of those who have a different view, but nothing worthwhile to support them.

Tony.

[Redbull]

Let me be straight with you Steve,

the foolish things being suggested on this thread are in themselves not just stupid and insulting, but potentially damaging to those falconers who fly anything other than indigenous hawks.
I really don't care that Phil or anybody else chooses not to fly a hybrid --- the only thing that matters is that those who do are not put at risk by the ill judged rants of those who have a different view, but nothing worthwhile to support them.

Tony.

to be fair tony im not bothered about anyone flying a hybrid, im not in a position to but what does concern me is through reading previous threads and being a new member off the BFC i was slightly dissapointed to read the comments you made on a certain field meet that a certain guy put his heart and soul and only to be knocked by a seniour member like yourself, iv heard all the stories and a make my own opinions on people but its a bit dissapointing to see the treasurer off the bfc knocking a lad in such a manner for trying his best. i fly quite a good female peregrine , last years bird i was wanting to take her on some field meets as i think she is a very good consistant gamehawk but if thats the way things operate i dont think i will bother, your attitude and constant argumentitave manner is quite off putting. xxx
atb steve.

[SmallPeregrine]

Are you stupid and blind or are you suffering from Dyslexia.:

Let me be straight with you Steve,

the foolish things being suggested on this thread are in themselves not just stupid and insulting, but potentially damaging to those falconers who fly anything other than indigenous hawks.
I really don't care that Phil or anybody else chooses not to fly a hybrid --- the only thing that matters is that those who do are not put at risk by the ill judged rants of those who have a different view, but nothing worthwhile to support them.

Tony.
You going to answer the questions or what 'cause I still have the tape recording of you calling me at 12.40 am ranting and raving about Steve (aka Maddog) for 2hrs and THEN phoning back the next day reiterating the same threats of conversation the next day:!:
What sort of behaviour is that befitting of a high ranking official of the BFC:?::idea:

[Tony James]

You going to answer the questions or what 'cause I still have the tape recording of you calling me at 12.40 am ranting and raving about Steve (aka Maddog) for 2hrs and THEN phoning back the next day reiterating the same threats of conversation the next day:!:
What sort of behaviour is that befitting of a high ranking official of the BFC:?::idea:

Having foolishly risen to your taunts that night, please don't expect me to be so stupid again.
Anyway, do you have anything worthwhile to say in relation to lost hybrids?

[SmallPeregrine]

yeah but Tony your of the 1st person ever to be summoned in front of a disciplinary committee of the BFC,.... EVER since it was founded in 1928. Through your foolish taunts, thinking your bigger than the club and abusing your position LOL:heart:.
By the way there 17 pages on this thread I suggest you read them 'Forest Gump Buttons' Seek and you will find the evidence
all love
Philx:heart:
ZZZZzzzzz still waiting for your reply to mine and redbulls posts:idea::?:

[Falcons7]

I fully agree about the 80's , The bit about hybreds been raised by peregrines , some are but it doesn't mean a wild peregrine who was defently raised by peregrines is gona say ''hello big boy , where have you been all my life'k
Your falcons and I wasn't knocking them as such but your own argument is about hybreds damaging the wild stock but then your flying atleast one , its hypicritical to condem one guy but think your. Ok to do what you like and its no good getting shirty with everyone who disagrees with you or agrees withe some one who doesn't !




TE=SmallPeregrine;1182402]Do you really believe the so called Peregrine stud book thats out there. Messrs Summers could have made it all up, I haven't seen it, have you:?:.And to be honest I know what went on in the 80's, my advice would be believe half what you see and nouwt what you hear concerning that Data base. My Tiercel has got Peale's in him, the female if that has Barbary in it that means Chris's lines have got Barbary in it too, Chris said it were Black Shaheen. At the end of the Day she doesn't look like she has Barbary in her unless your relating to her size:?:
As for Hybrids, arnt most hybrids chamber raised by imprinted Peregrines and when lost do you think they will relate readily to wild Peregrines because of the fact:idea::?:[/QUOTE]

[David Rampling]

Are you saying this is not possible, have you actually read my previous repetive posts ie Mr Rampling post:?

mmm, not keen to get involved in this arguement, have enough of my own to contend with! I didn't say the hybrid that bred with the Peregrine on the chalk cliffs was lost at hack, could have been lost whilst hunting, flying the lure... Indeed, it could have flown over from the continent. Atb

[Falcons7]

Hi pitbull , I'm one of the names mentioned and I as others are trying to get eyases that measure up to wild stuff but alas Natural sollection is better than my sollection I suspect !



I still can't see why you think captive bred "pure" pregrines are better quality or even similar to the wild stock, for them not to be a threat.
Maybe they are not. I don't know, but just because you reel off well known names, it doesn't mean man knows better than evolution in nature. And no I ain,t reading any book, as books are made up of statistics not entire facts. I don't look at it from a blood line veiw, more of a microscopic point of veiw, and how extensive breeding in captivity changes the body and its functions too infection, and the likes.

[Falcons7]

Wonder if the main writer of the book is a falconer !



If you want people to listen to you I suggest you change your attitude - I don't see how what bird someone flies renders their opinion valid or not?? I know some excellent genetic scientists who could shoot you to pieces with their genetic knowledge, yet they don't fly birds at all -does that make their science any less valid???

[Big JoeJoe]

Closed the thread while it gets cleaned up. Never a dull moment on this forum :lol: